Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #132 D I S C I P L I N E The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 132, Friday, 22 April 1994 Today's Topics: Bruford back in KC?? Close To The Hedge Re: #2(2) Discipline #131 Responses to Chris' Comments Anekdoten, Bi Kyo Ran and other Crimso-Like bands anagrammatix New Crimso Album Either/Orchestra "Red" Bruford, Holdsworth, Wyatt, Frippertronics Definitive Editions Re: Robert Fripp - ? Re: Tuning at end of KC RF ARGENTINE PERFORMANCES Two Drummers? . . . Why? Andy Summers Re:Starless and BB exposure contributors Exposure [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 07:58:19 PDT From: delgadillo at Sales dot TGV dot COM (Kevin Delgadillo) Subject: Bruford back in KC?? Responding to Mike Smith's posting in Discipline #131 >This is the first I've heard that Bruford is in the new Crimson. >Anybody know anything more about this? I guess this means Marotta is out? Is this true???!!! Bruford back in Crimson!! That would be the best musical news this year!!!! PLEASE tell me it's true!! Marotta is an excellent drummer, but Bruford has always played a vital role in creating KC's unique sound. Any word on this topic would be greatly appreciated. By the way, I LOVE THIS NEWSLETTER!! Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kevin Delgadillo Phone:(408)457-5363 FAX :(408)457-5205 delgadillo at tgv dot com TGV, Inc. 101 Cooper Street Santa Cruz, CA 95060 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Close To The Hedge Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 18:47:12 -0400 (EDT) From: ghanley This article appeared in the Feb '94 issue of Boston Rock, and I'm forwarding it with permission from the author. Enjoy! -- Gary Interview with Bill Bruford Close to the hedge: The symphonic music of Yes by Michael Bloom Bill Bruford probably has the most impressive resume of any musician associated with the old classic progressive rock of the '70s. Moreover, he's one of the handful still making waves in the industry, by making interesting new music. So he didn't feel much more constrained than I did to talk about that blast from the past he was recently involved with, _The Symphonic Music of Yes_ (RCA Victor), even though that's what the publicist who set up the interview thought we were doing. As we shall see, he's got other irons on the fire nowadays. But he did give us the unsentimental inside dope on that record, in his droll and articulate manner. "Setting up an album these days is a bit like Hollywood," he explained. "You have to run a script, put together a package... You get a phone call, 'We're doing this, do you want to be in or out.' And it came past my desk and it was a case of 'I think maybe I'd rather play drums on this than have someone else do it.' Personally I thought it was quite good, and I quite enjoyed re-recording stuff and having a second go at it." For you studio mavens, here's how they did it. "The band played generally as a rock group, live in the studio. We had five days, I think, and did the eight or nine or whatever cuts. They'd been rearranged, David Palmer had extended some sections and cut out others and so forth, so my mental arrangements of these ancient pieces of music were somewhat scuppered. So there were charts. Tim Harries is the bass player from Earthworks, very good sightreader. So there were a lot of charts everywhere, and we just played those-- and played them as a rock group, with the full intention they should sound very good. There were no sequencers running. "And then maybe a week later, there were three three-hour sessions for the orchestra, which was recorded by Alan Parsons. I don't really know Alan Parsons's work, but he seems to be a bit of a whiz at orchestral recording. 54 musicians came in, and in nine hours-- which is quite quick to do all that, you have to watch the clock, because they go into triple overtime... As the last dying notes in the last piece ebbed away, they just got there in time, I think, it was one of those high stress situations. I wasn't there for that." So there wasn't a lot of creative involvement on Bruford's part, and his ego isn't on the line here. "Occasionally saying, David, you should really leave this passage out, and you've got the beat wrong in this, and you're misunderstanding the tempo of this, that and the other. So I was able to correct and iron out one or two things that were going to go badly wrong metrically, sort of the rhythm consultant to the stars!" So when I described the record as a botch, Bruford wasn't too bent out of shape. Much. Yes in its prime, which included most of the music on this record, required five talented guys working at peak efficiency to perform this music, and I figured if you could spread that information out among 54 people, you might get more nuance in there-- especially since Stravinsky, one of the all-time masters of orchestral color, was admittedly a big influence on the band. "Possibly so," he admitted. "Where we missed that, you're a dissatisfied customer, and where we got that right you're more or less okay. And I agree, to take a balanced view here, it's an uneven album. But there are moments of grandeur... I think the basses on the front of 'Heart of the Sunrise,' there's a certain timbral quality there which is really wonderful." Yeah, that's one of the good bits. I also kinda like the entrance of the "Close to the Edge" waltz theme, and a few other examples of clever orchestral voicings. Which makes the bulk of the album that much more frustrating, knowing that if they'd focused on the orchestra first, it could have been brilliant. "There you go, now. That's a different way of doing it, and the record company would see that as tampering with 'classic' tracks. That's the world we're living in nowadays, there are orders, instructions issued to the musicians... Ironically, even though they will now let us senior serious sober proficient professional musicians have the London Philharmonic at our current age, and at 18 and 20 years old they wouldn't let us have such a thing, we probably would have made better use of it then." How did Yes do what they did at 18 and 20 years old, anyway? "With an awful lot of blood spilled on the floor! Nothing was ever written down, they weren't in that sense written. But we would all set up the instruments in a circle, the traditional rehearsal room style, and stare at our feet for a bit-- until somebody said, 'Well, I've got a bit of a riff and it goes pom, pom,' and then Wakeman would say, 'We can put that over some chord change,' and I'd say, 'Well that's not really much fun, can't we halve the tempo or something,' and it would go to and fro like this in a painfully slow and very amateurish method, and nobody really knew what was happening. "Jon Anderson would have a guitar in his hands and play two ghastly chords which nobody wanted to play, and it was always a case of if you've got something better, do it. So Steve would begin to figure out some other little chord change or movement around what Jon had offered, and he'd sing on top of anything that came, and away you go. It wasn't Sibelius sitting down and writing something, it was four kids all sort of knocking shoulders together. "I think two or three times those particular four or five guys got very lucky, with 'Close to the Edge' and 'Heart of the Sunrise.' Now you can't afford to do that any more, there's too many professionals around, and I wouldn't ever want to sit around again in rehearsal rooms the way we did. And that's about all the insight Bruford can offer about Yes. He has no idea how they work nowadays. "I must immediately say I'm not a member of Yes, and not purporting to be a member of Yes. There is a group called Yes in Los Angeles, which I think comprises, as of yesterday, Alan White, Chris Squire, Trevor Rabin, Jon Anderson and Tony Kaye. The Howe-Bruford-Wakeman faction is on the whole not required, which is fine by more or less all parties," he laughs. "You know, I run my own group, it's a small group called Earthworks, and when that has rehearsals, people bring in bits of paper. But tunes on the whole are written, I mean those guys read and write, and they're much sketchier things and they can just be played much more quickly. I love that about the jazz side. I get my sense of improvisation and chaos from being in a room with people who are all banging away at the same time." The next Earthworks album should be out in a month or so, consisting of live recordings from the last tour. "I'm very pleased with this live stuff, definitely my best playing in a long time. I was thrilled to be able to wail and get it down." Most of it, he says, was recorded at Nightstage, and he was disappointed to learn that the club no longer exists. Despite a much lower commercial profile than Yes-- or perhaps because of that-- Bruford finds Earthworks more musically satisfying. For example, Earthworks gets to improvise a lot, which Yes never really did. "You absolutely are glued to the edge of your seat, or as a drummer I am," he enthuses. "Not quite knowing which way the wind's going to blow next, juggling, trying to make sense out of it, that is great fun. And of course you can't do that in rock music on the whole." And Bruford should know, as he was also once a member of one of rock's all time great improvising ensembles, King Crimson. "When Crimson stopped in '84, to me that was kind of a watershed. That felt like the end of that particular time, where you could somehow be creative, quote-unquote, in a major label rock group as a drummer, that you could think of things and do things that were interesting. There was a core audience, a couple hundred thousand guys who would support such a thing, and you could make a living at it. No one's talking about getting rich, but you could make a living at it. Since '84 I've found that to be more or less impossible in the music industry. So I moved sideways into jazz, where people go when they want to do that stuff on the drum set. And fine too, I have no trouble with that." So we discussed King Crimson for a while. "You don't jam with Robert Fripp," he observed drily. I mentioned how Fripp, in his booklet notes to the _Great Deceiver_ box set, calls me clueless. "Oh does he? Well there you go. That's an honor, if you've only been called clueless. You should hear what I've been called. We're in a very rarefied group of writers and musicians who've been disparaged internationally, so join the club!" END [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: mikelbiko at aol dot com Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 22:11:14 EDT Subject: Re: #2(2) Discipline #131 My god, TWO DRUMMERS?! Sounds like this new lineup may even live up to our highest expectations! I'm already excited! In answer to a recent post looking for VHS dubs of the King Crimson MTV concert, I would suggest you send for a copy of my 40 page audio/video trade list. I have mostly Marillion/ Gabriel/Genesis/Oldfield/Amos/Bush/Icehouse, but a nice selection of Crimson also, and have both the Frejus France ("The Noise") and Live in Japan (MTV show) in Hi-Fi stereo, the latter from the original Japanese laserdisc. To obtain my list, send a 58 cent self-addressed (large) envelope to: Mikel Orsborn 317 SW 112th St. #314 Seattle WA 98146 USA I would also like to trade audio tapes for copies of the Swedish band mentioned that sounds like KC, and for the orchestral guitar version of "Red" also mentioned. Keep those cards and SASE's coming! mikelbiko at aol dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "ToddM" Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Mpls, MN Date: 18 Apr 1994 17:42:50CST6CDT Subject: Responses to Chris' Comments Chris' had a few interesting comments in this area due to the fact that his relations with the artists in question allowed us to go beyond the "gee, imagine the way it was" to the "this IS the way it was". Chris says: > My three favorite "progressive albums" released between '75 and '80 (when > KC had left the scene for 5 years...) were the first UK, BB's _One of a > Kind_, and Gentle Giant's _Free Hand_. Danger Money--sorry. Actually, I like all four. But yeah, UK/UK was more of an adventure. With "Danger Money" I kind of knew what I would hear after the first tune. > I wouldn't recommend against its purchase--especially for Wetton/Jobson fans, > because there's some great Wetton there--far surpassing, say the Asia schlock. Agreed. Asia really bothered me because there was such a buildup of advertising for it before it was released. After "Drama", I thought they might even go farther with progressive sounds and what happened? Asia. Blecch. And one of the worst sounding recordings of all time, IMHO. Today, it holds up on the radio because a lot of other garbage has been released. But yeah, most of it is pretty forgettable. > The fragile chemistry that couldn't hold together with the first UK > ensemble--was something totally unique IMO because of Holdsworth, who > brought a completely different mood and feel to that band--and frankly AH's > singular sense of melody and improvisation--to me--made that band's music a > lot more interesting than it otherwise would have been. Exactly. UK with Fripp could have been Crimson. But with Holdsworth, an interesting HYBRID emerged, such songs as "Mental Medication" and "NeverMore" - I could stand to have heard several more albums of stuff like that. Kind of a weird combination of Gong's "Night Illusion" (excellent, excellent Holdsworth soloing and lines on that one), Jobson's synthesizer and violin visions as well as Wetton's husky voice and deep bass. I heard distinct classical, jazz, rock, and modern synthesizer musics on the first UK. > I actually > discussed this at length with Jobson--who seemed to agree with me on that > point--but at the time, AH was not interested in making "glued together" > music--i.e., meticulously crafted projects via the overdubbing process. Yeah, some of the sections sounded grafted together. And Jobson - he's relegated to doing commercials for the most part? I'd rather hear him do soundtracks so we can at least BUY something by him. I guess "Theme of Secrets" didn't do too well and he chucked the pop music world once and for all. Anything else recent by him besides the "Viper" TV show? > His homemade _I.O.U._ project which followed was really a "live" response > to all that rehashing (which I frankly loved)-- The album that redefined the role, sound, timbre and technique of "rhythm" guitar forever. The album that showed Holdsworth's soloing ability was there as never before. A very forward thinking album and a prelude of what was to come. It is excellent. > that went into the Bruford > and UK projects. AH, like Fripp, was a distressed musician at the time > (remember "Dusty Rhodes"), and told me he was struggling with alcohol abuse > all through this period-- one reason, no doubt, Jobson told me that on the > road with UK, AH had difficulties leaving hotels and catching planes. Allan himself says in "Reaching for the Uncommon Chord", "I used to just get drunk".. Fair enough, but I'm glad he's moved out of that period of his life. At the same time, it's obvious AH's role was to create structures to improvise over, not create little blocks and graft them together and then play the same lines over them night after night (after....). > AH never denied this--claiming the music--and the restrictions placed on him > by EJ and JW made him feel all the more wretched. I thought some of > Wetton's best vocals ever were one the tune's co-penned by AH--"Never More" > and "Mental Medication." Upon making that comment to AH he said something > to the effect it was hell to get Wetton to sing the parts AH wrote-- he > couldn't understand the harmonies, and AH had to coach him through the > singing in the studio until JW got it right. You can see hear JW fluff it on: "Metal Medication......SWUH Music's....." where he should have said "Sweet", or at least enunciated it a bit better. > Needless to say there was > tension all around with that project--but the results-- however short > lived--I thought were magnificent. Sometimes life is like that. I keep thinking of Crimson's "Red" and going: "I want to hear what comes after that". I wonder if that lineup had survived what would have transpired. In the meantime, I've discovered a Japanese band called Bi Kyo Ran that, of all things sounds incredibly like '73-'74 Crimson. In fact, they sound more like Crimson than even Anekdoten does, even the improvisations. I'll fill you in a little more later. -ToddM. LaserMaster Technical Support. toddm at ramrod dot lmt dot mn dot org [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "ToddM" Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Mpls, MN Date: 18 Apr 1994 18:07:41CST6CDT Subject: Anekdoten, Bi Kyo Ran and other Crimso-Like bands More Comments: Dennis dot Montgomery at EBay dot Sun dot COM (Dennis Montgomery) wrote: >I've stumbled across a band that's a guaranteed sure hit for us fans of mid >70's Crimso. The band is called "Anekdoten" and their CD is called >_Venod_. Instrumentation includes guitar/drums/vocals/mellotron/ >bass/cello. And when I say bass, I mean the same type of distorted bass >Wetton was tearing concert halls apart with in '74 :) [ extensive compliments deleted for brevity ] > Many people have been delighted with this disc, so it's worth trying to get > to hear it, but before you buy blind, I would offer an alternate opinion: > I can see there is some similarity, but I don't find Anekdoten to be > anywhere near as subtle and inventive as mid-era Crimson. On first listen, > Vemod sounds depressingly like stock prog-metal. Further listens reveal > some interesting parts, but on the whole I still regard it as fundamentally > head-banging fodder. There isn't as much depth as 1974-era Crimson. But it's still good - something that powerful released in '94 isn't bad. I don't find it "stock metal" stuff, I've heard enough of that - maybe we could go as far as saying they are a heavy rock band that uses dynamics and mellotrons and a distinctly european feel. Some parts of that band sound like Hydravian, the band I currently play in and it's kind of funny to hear similar sounds like that although I come more from a Holdsworth point of view. > One interesting point is that at a couple of points, Anekdoten's guitarist > does the best Fripp impersonation I've yet heard. Actually, the guitarist of Bi Kyo Ran is an even closer imitation. I have two of their albums, Volume 2 Live and Volume 3 live, both on the Belle Antique label. This band is amazing - they're defunct now, they were active until the mid 1980s or so, but even the improvs sound like classic Crimson circa 1973. There's even a "Starless" type excursion called "Warning". I like it. Other instrumentals are more in the "Red" vein where you hear tunes like "Psycho Part I". Instrumentation includes bass, 12-string electric guitar, mellotron, 6-string electric guitar, mellotron (again) and Solina string ensemble. Someone else went into detail on Anekdoten and Landberk, two bands from the same area and similar sounding. I find Anekdoten more like Crimson, but Landberk (to me anyway) has more in common with 1974-1976 era Deep Purple when they tried to verge on progressive (i.e. hard rock with some symphonic influences, i.e. playing with a symphony orchestra). Both are pretty different from one another but also good. Mind you, it's not Crimson, but it's something else and certainly different than what consist of standard airplay in my town....I can't wait to hear what new Crimson will sound like. -ToddM LaserMaster Technical Support. toddm at ramrod dot lmt dot mn dot org [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 23:05:35 -0600 From: nash at chem dot wisc dot edu (John R. Nash) Subject: anagrammatix Since I've seen some anagram-descramblers posted (on the "Thela Hun Ginjeet" thread), I thought I'd contribute a reference for the Mac users out there: sumex-aim.stanford.edu:/info-mac/app/karma-manager-11.hqx ftp.wustl.edu:/systems/mac/info-mac/Old/app/karma-manager-11.hqx I'll let you figure out why it's called "Karma Manager." -===-John R. Nash-==-nash at chem dot wisc dot edu-==-UW-Madison Chem. Dept-===- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 12:30:43 +0100 From: "Steve Moore" Subject: New Crimso Album In the new issue of Mojo, RF is quoted as saying there will be a Japan-only Crimson 'mini-album' (a CD single maybe) later this year, and a full release album early next year. He also said he was currently mixing the Sylvian/Fripp _Live in Japan_ album and working with Eno, The Orb, and The Grid (separately, one assumes!). For those of waiting for more live Box Sets (Early '70s and 81/84 KC), he said something to the effect of 'I believe in looking to the future, the past is the past' (NOT a quote - I don't have the article to hand, that was his gist though). Presumably that means he's dropped plans for the other live boxes? Sorry this is all a little vague, but I forgot to bring the magazine in to work with me today! I'll try and find time to type in the full interview tonight. __Steve__ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 11:03:09 CDT From: Paul Heroy Subject: Either/Orchestra "Red" Michael Fitzgerald mentioned Either/Orchestra's recording of "Red" on their album The Half Life of Desire, and I just happened to have picked this up for a spin this weekend. I do some substitute DJing at the local college station, KLSU, and had the Sunday night jazz show. While having fun going through the stacks beforehand and doing some exploration of various CDs, looking for material to play, I noticed a couple of E/O recordings and having heard that they are pretty interesting, I grabbed to check out. As it happens, I picked THLoD to try out first. Initially the first track grabbed my ears, but then I noticed the title of the last track - and then saw the credit. Fripp! Great! This would be the perfect lead in, because the preceding show is the 'Rock Archives'. E/O could be called 'progressive big band' I guess, and I second the recommendation to check them out. The fact that (according to Anil's news) KC was going into the studio to start recording on the same day is just too cool. Strike one up for synchronicity! Paul Heroy -- heroy at lsuvm dot sncc dot lsu dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: allenh at smtpgate dot tais dot com Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 18:26:27 PST Subject: Bruford, Holdsworth, Wyatt, Frippertronics I think I'll just fling out a few tidbits for the group to gnaw on: 1) Last summer I read in the CD newsletter ICE that Bruford/Earthworks was releasing a new one entitled "Stamping Ground - Live!". I've been unable to find this so...can anyone out there enlighten me on this? 2) In a recent import catalogue I saw that the Japanese version of the first A Holdsworth/G Beck listed as "The Things You See/Song of the Sunbird". Judging by the title, I believed this to include bonus tracks. I called the importer and they said they didn't actually have the CD in stock and I was the first to inquire about it since they first listed it 6 months ago. So again...any enlightenment? And can anyone tell me the publisher of the Holdsworth book? 3) Due to a request from within the group to post an update for the availability of "Wrong Movements - A Robert Wyatt History" here 'tis: In the US contact Wayside Music (if anyone needs their address please contact me) or watch your local Tower Records. In the UK, I'd contact the publisher (SAF Ltd. in London) or check out the local Virgin outlet. If these don't work and you are rabid to obtain one, please contact me for alternatives...I won't and can't procure it for you, but I can give suggestions. And lest anyone accuse me of running a free advert here: Although I was associated with the project, I HAVE NOT, AM NOT, and WILL NOT receive any financial compensation for it (whether it be goods, merchandise, or cold hard cash) and am not associated with any of the above named business operations. Besides, Toby is perfectly free to edit this out if it is believed the boundary of grace has been transgressed. And if anyone is fuzzy on the Crimson connection: Mr.Fripp produced Mr. Wyatt's second group's (Matching Mole) second album (Little Red Record) and participated with RW in Keith Tippett's Centipede project. There, mission accomplished, the last you'll see of this. 4) re: "the best Frippertronics I've ever heard". I heard a fragment of the show recorded in St.Louis at Peaches Records (Jennings outlet) broadcast behind an interview with RF conducted by an LA alternative rock station. This was from the first tour. If anyone has a tape they'd care to trade... 5) Finally, would anyone care to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) re: David Torn/Mark Isham/Tony Levin/Bill Bruford album "Cloud About Mercury"? If this territory has been covered, forgive me, I'm new here... BTW, I'm really glad to see that Discipline does not restrict itself to Crimson alone, I hope it stays open to all ideas, thoughts, and opinions. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Definitive Editions From: greg dot aranda at toadhall dot com (Greg Aranda) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 20:20:00 -0700 Organization: Toad Hall þ High Octane BBS þ 415-595-2427 TT> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 21:02:20 -0600 TT> From: dalton at isidis dot colorado dot edu (lizard man) TT> Subject: Sleepless -- Definitive Edition > TT> Actually, i replaced my Exposure LP with a CD recently and "Disengage" TT> has been thoroughly shot to hell. Weak, weak, weak. After all this time, TT> i had been looking forward to getting that on disc. Oh well. A couple TT> other songs were changed too, but nowhere near as devastatingly as TT> "Disengage." All that work to remaster the Definitive Editions...wasted. I couldn't agree more! Peter Hammill's vocals on the original release of "Disengage" were incredible -- biting, expressive. To see them diluted the way they were in Mr. Fripp's alternate choice was sad, indeed. It's a difficult call, whether to re-release the original expression or release a new interpretation. For my own tastes, I prefer the originals. They have a life of their own. Witness the dubbing of Adrian Belew's comparatively lackluster vocals in place of Gordon Haskell's on "Cadence and Cascade" in the _The Essential King Crimson_. And the abbreviated versions of "Starless" and "In the Court of the Crimson King". I can understand Robert wanting to rework his creations if he really feels the need. After all, they are his "creations". It was he who directed those creations. But I disagree with his assessment that the pieces are not immutable, "carved in stone" (so to speak). The fact is, the music, in its =originally released form=, carries with it the interpretations and experiences of =countless= listeners over time; countless listeners who have, by their very devotion to some very powerful music, infused that music with a life that greatly transcends the vinyl/oxides/aluminum that have served to bring that music to us. Of course, it's no secret that different takes, different interpretations are involved in the evolution of a piece. As such, one might think that the existence of these different versions prior to actual commitment to mass produced media would be proof enough that the "final" release is not necessarily the definitive release. But to assume such would be denying the contributions of countless people responsible for completing the artistic loop. If a musician chooses to share his creations with the masses, that musician must accept the audience's contribution to those creations as being a part of each creation's character. For me, the extended instrumental section of "Starless" is an integral part of what makes that piece work. To tear that portion out of the piece is to strip it of a vitality that is (dare I say it?) universally recognised as integral to that piece. To strip "Starless" of that section is, in essence, equivalent to a disregard for the life that is intrinsic to that piece. It is, I am sad to say, an unnecessary surgery that renders the piece crippled; bereft of a lifeforce that is not only recognised by many -- it is a lifeforce whose very existence has been amplified by the many who have listened to the music and have shared (in some cases, =shouted about=) the feelings that the piece has evoked. In short, the music, once shared with the masses, has the possibility of gaining a lifeforce that far exceeds that lifeforce intrinsic to its creation. As such, the music begins to transcend "ownership" by its creator. It is at that point that post-release editing approaches mutilation. (Sorry, Robert.) Whew! All that to say I agree with the assessment that "Disengage" suffered greatly at the hands of the "Definitive Edition" sweep. In closing, it is my wish that both the original releases and the "Definitive Edition" versions be made available. That way, everyone could be satisfied. I am always interested in Mr. Fripp's viewpoint. But I still want to be able to get close to some very dear friends. I want to have my cake =and= eat it. After all, as one who feels a deep affinity with the music, and as one who has shown unwavering devotion to and support of the artist's ability to continue producing highly creative and challenging works, I deserve to have my cake =and= eat it! :) __________________________________________________________________________ | | | Via e-mail: greg dot aranda at toadhall dot com / greg dot aranda at granite dot gcbb dot mn dot org |## |__________________________________________________________________________|## ############################################################################ * RM 1.3 00624 * I carried it around with me for days & days... [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART) Subject: Re: Robert Fripp - ? Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 08:10:00 GMT Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102 FORWARDED FOR YOU FROM ALT.MUSIC.PROGRESSIVE From: BCJ at CS dot BROWN dot EDU To: ALL Subj: Re: Robert Fripp - ? Date: 94/04/19 ================================================================ ...thus spake Zak May through the avatar savane1 at umbc dot edu... \\ JOHN D CAPRIOTTI wrote: \\ > And I guess he's (FINALLY) in the studio with a new six-man Crimso. \\ \\ What about his Orb project - was that abandoned? nope. the album _orbert_ was finished last year and should be released later this year. they're waiting so as not to confilct with the release of the third orb album. -brent --- * UniQWK v2.0 * The Windows Mail Reader / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info at tigerteam dot org / [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: KEN dot STUART at tigerteam dot org (KEN STUART) Subject: Re: Tuning at end of KC Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 08:12:00 GMT Organization: Tiger Team Information Network (510) 268-0102 FORWARDED FOR YOU FROM ALT.MUSIC.PROGRESSIVE -- From: CLIVE at UK dot MDIS dot COM To: ALL Subj: Re: Tuning at end of KC' Date: 94/04/19 ================================================================ Oliver B. Warzecha (obw at ux2 dot chemie dot uni-dortmund dot de) wrote: : Brett Strausser (strauss at osi dot ncsl dot nist dot gov) wrote: : : I have a copy of the LP and the tuning is on it. It is a copy with the : : original cover painted by Sinfield (looks like hell). : Painted cover?? What does it look like? Never heard of that before. Indeed. The original cover, and the only one I've ever seen, is an astronomical photograph (Triffid Nebula in Sagittarius if memory serves). : : I just got the "definitive edision" on CD and the tuning is gone. Fripp : : seems to be doing a real hack job on these. I have heard a lot of : : complaints about the changes he made on the Crimson and his own solo stuff. : But I got the "definitive edition" CD, too, anf the tuning is right at the end : of "Islands" (in every sense :). Note there is a break (about 30 seconds or so) : between "Islands" and the tuning. : If it's really not there...hmmmmm.... It seems to be becoming clear from all the postings I've seen over the years that the UK/European "definitive edition" CD has the tuning, and the US version doesn't. What is going on here? I am convinced that Fripp intended for it to be on the disc, and some idiot engineer who mastered the US CD chopped it off. Clive Backham McDonnell Information Systems, Hemel Hempstead, UK email: cbackham at uk dot mdis dot com --- * UniQWK v2.0 * The Windows Mail Reader / Tiger Team Buddhist Information Network / / Modem (510) 268-0102 info at tigerteam dot org / [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: dinokiller at aol dot com Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 19:12:58 EDT Subject: RF ARGENTINE PERFORMANCES The only information I have regarding dates for Robert's gigs is what was passed on to me from an Argentinian Crafty friend. I was told that "Robert Fripp & Les Gauchos Allemande will perform and record in Argentina, June 7-20, in a "Soundscape" special project." Les Gauchos Allemandes is a group composed of Crafties Hernan Nunez, Fernando Kabusacki and Martin Schwutke. Very talented and nice guys. I also heard they added a date in CHILE. On a personal note, I am selling a friends King Crimson/ Robert Fripp collection ( value at over $9000 US ) and if you know someone who might be interested in the whole collection I will send them a list. Please make sure it is a genuine interest in the whole thing as my list is over 30 pages and the postage (especially to Europe) isn't cheap. I am willing to discount the collection if it is bought as a whole and before it is broken up I want to try to sell it as a whole. Any help would be appreciated. Oh yes, the list cannot be emailed as it is illustrated. Thanks again. By the way , Crimson rehearsals are happening right now. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "David Altemir" Date: 20 Apr 1994 13:13:36 CDT6CST Subject: Two Drummers? . . . Why? I must admit that having two drummers in the new KC lineup strikes me as bit of an oddity. I suppose I think that way because everytime I see the two drummers in the Grateful Dead playing the same part simultaneously, a vision appears of Jerry G. & Co. keeping the second drummer in the band just because they didn't want to hurt his feelings (my apologies to the Dead Heads in the audience for whom this is considered blasphamous). Genesis is another example of a band with 2 time keepers. However, they only play together during live shows during the instrumental parts. I suppose Phil Collins enjoys returning to his drumming roots during the live shows and that's cool. As for the new KC, I am concerned about what sort of drum parts to expect on the new album (being a drummer myself and a steadfast Bruford afficionado). I consider Marotta's work with Peter Gabriel to be interesting while his appearance on Fripp/Sylvian's "The First Day" consisted merely of rudimentary time keeping (probably through no fault of his own). On the other hand, I really enjoyed Pat Mastolotto on Trey Gunn's "1000 Years" AND in Mister Mister. I think Mister Mister was cool because it was an attempt to combine musically interesting chops and sound technology with popular music that is all too rare in this day and age of 4/4 Pop, grunge bands, Led Zep clones, and IMHO totlly disgusting rap. I can only think of a few groups with heavy radio airplay that are technically interesting at all (e.g., R.E.M., The Cure, Missing Persons, The B-52s, and U2). Anyway, I hope that KC can utilize the 2 drummers much the same way as the 2 guitarists were used to create mosaics in the previous KC reincarnation. If they can do this while leaving enough melody-making space for the guitarists and Stick players (Stickists?) then I will be greatly impressed . . . and I can't wait to find out!! ________________________________________________ David Altemir NASA/Johnson Space Center altemird at samnet dot jsc dot nasa dot gov (713) 483-6427 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "David Altemir" Date: 20 Apr 1994 13:42:37 CDT6CST Subject: Andy Summers Since the Police and King Crimson both disbanded, I have been predicting the glorious return of a new KC featuring Fripp with Andy Summers. However, I have been proven wrong with the recent announcement of a Summerless Crqimson. Am I the only one that thought the ex-Policeman could have been a candidate for a reincarnation of King Crimson? Does anyone know if Fripp and Summers have even discussed that possibility? What about Sylvian? What happened to that guy? With all the Fripp/Summers and Fripp/Sylvian collaborations, I thought that Summers and/or Sylvian would surely be involved in the new KC. My theory is that the return of Adrian Belew essentially made the involvement of an additional guitarist (i.e., Summers) and vocalist (i.e., Sylvian) unnecessary. Otherwise, can anyone imagine KC with three guitars and/or Yes-like vocal harmonies between two or more vocalists!?! ________________________________________________ David Altemir NASA/Johnson Space Center altemird at samnet dot jsc dot nasa dot gov (713) 483-6427 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 21:33:04 -0400 (EDT) From: James John Hannigan Subject: Re:Starless and BB Crimheads: Being a somewhat newer KC convert, I haven't yet completed the catalog, and my next purchase will definitely be Starless and Bible Black. Someone in the previous issue mentioned the changes made in remastering on The Mincer, and I was hoping to get opinions on whether to get the CD or find a used album copy. Is there any consensus on which is better for this one? Did Fripp make any unpopular changes? With all the talk about Sleepless and so on, I'd like to be careful. I have LTIA on CD, were there any major changes to this? Thanks- Jim Hannigan (thefly at sils dot umich dot edu) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 21:59:08 -0500 (cdt) From: Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man (John P Mohan) Subject: exposure contributors I recently bought the ED CD release of Exposure. I was pleasantly surprised to find many "big names" among the contributing musicians, such as Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Jerry Marotta, Barry Andrews, etc. I don don't know, however, just what these people did and on what songs. (For instance, both Collins and Marotta contributed drum tracks, but on which songs?) I though I was enough of a Collinistic drummer that I'd be able to recognize his drumming anywhere, but I guess I'm mistaken. Any info details concerning my question would be appreciated. Thanks. JP "health-food faggot" Mohan [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:36:55 -0600 (CST) From: "timothy david hufnagle" Subject: Exposure My favorite artist(s) are Daryl Hall and John Oates. Daryl Hall worked with Robert Fripp as I'm sure you already know. Robert Fripp originally played guitar and produced Daryl's first solo LP in 1980 called "Sacred Songs" on the RCA record label. In return Daryl did some writing and singing on Fripp's LP "Exposure". Now it is understood among fans of H&O that there is supposedly a test pressing of "Exposure" with only Daryl singing all of the lead vocals. Is this true? How could I find a copy of it, being that it is so rare and hardly anyone knows about it? Thank you for your time and I would like to hear from you soon. My e-mail address is: txh120 at psu dot edu Thanks again! Tim Hufnagle Penn State University [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.