Discipline #128 (as text)

11 March 1994

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 02:25:29 -0300
From: Luis Eduardo Bondesan Paulino <lpaulino at fox dot cce dot usp dot br>
Subject: prog-rock!


I am a brazilian fan of progressive rock, specially KC (70's era!). I really enjoyed your "Discipline", and I was specially happy to read that KC might be back, unfortunately with that Adrian Belew.... But then... It would be a dream to have Greg Lake back, right? Well... but at least we could have Wetton... :)

I am also writing because I would like to know more lists of prog-rock related material. From a big file with 1000's of lists, I could only find your list related to prog-rock... So, if somebody out there knows some other list on prog-rock (specially GENESIS, they're my fave progrock band!), I would be very grateful if this person would send me these lists, or even publish them on Discipline, since it might be of interest to other readers also...

Well, that's all for the mo'... hope to keep reading Discipline for a long time, so keep up the good work!

From: C_HOARD%BAX dot compuserve dot com at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Date: 04 Mar 94 14:03:09 EST
Subject: Fripp, Holdsworth, and Steely Dan: Ruminations Redux

Hello Crmisies...

I'm going posting various takes on this thread (I guess I inadvertently initiated) to Atavachron and Steely-Dan and Discipline--as the posting has some application to each.

Also, I wanted to recommend that all "progressive music" fans out there grab the new Holdsworth album, Hard Hat Area (Restless), and especially plug the Disciplinites that Steve Tibbetts has a new album out on ECM (thru BMG Classics). Tibbetts is strongly influenced by Fripp (so it seems)--I really like his work, which sort of straddles a pastiche of territory between "world music," the "ECM jazz vibe," experimentation with electronics and distortion--and even prog-rock to an extent. Even the Dandophiles might dig'im.

David Lane posted the following to Atavachron--thought I'd pitch in my .02:

>Subject: AH on SD and RF & Get Well Jeff
Re: Some out-of-context quotes from me and comments by David Lane:
>CH:I think possibly Steely Dan is AH's favorite American rock
   band--certainly he loves a  lot of their music.
>CH: AH [...] never was a big Fripp fan anyway--he  always found Fripp a
    little too mathematical--too rehearsed in his solos.

>DL: I have to say that I disagree with AH on both counts.  I've always
>considered SD pretty much over-rated, certainly heads above most other pop
>bands of their time, but nothing to get too excited about.  Slick,
>heavily-produced, better-than-average AOR pop; lots of session
>musicians -- sort of a Toto with good lyrics.  One *obvious* example of a
>far more adventurous American rock band comes to mind -- I'm sure AH is
>aware of the other work that Chad & Vinnie have been involved in?

>As for Fripp, I'd recommend that he listen to The Great Deceiver box.
>Dave Lane  davidl at ratsys dot com

First of all, Dave--what a tease! Who's so adventurous it's *obvious*? Happy The Man? The Greatful Dead? Pere Ubu? Funny, I can't really think of many American rock bands I can think of as "adventurous" since Dan or the Heads... Maybe I'm just dense or out-of-tune... but a Toto with good lyrics??? How about "The Doobies Brothers on heroin, rather than skunk bud..." Anyway, thanks for prompting me to ponder (perhaps in vain) the following voluminous comparison of apples, oranges, and pears:

I disagree with AH on his Fripp comment too--and have played him 'Great Deceiver'-- he seemed genuinely impressed, although his listening taste tends to lean mostly toward great, modern American jazz. I can also see how RF's playing leaves a jazz oriented musician cold, though--but to me the real glory of Fripp's musicianship explodes like a nova for me when RF (seemingly) crosses the line between the meticulously arranged solos and the wholly spontaneous--and 'Deceiver' is certainly a plentiful source of such instances.

Fripp is without doubt in this cranium one of the most influential "total musicians" of his generation--as is Brian Eno, Peter Gabriel--for they have broad influences in many modern genres--and in the highest echelons of 'pop'--not that I really give a damn. I wouldn't place Genesis in this category--or Yes--because to me their influence has been limited to a particular style and approach in "prog-rock."

I'd tag the work of Fagen and Becker as singular and significant for some different reasons--they forged a lot of new musical territory in the 70s, undoubtedly absorbed influences from some of these Brits in their earlier recordings--but to me they were great innovators in terms of how they synthesized the studio technology of the 70's with both great guitar driven rock, horn-driven R&B, and jazz phrasings borrowed from the beatnik and swing eras. Yes, they defined a new extreme of "slickness" in pop--some of their gems were overly polished to me--but what a bag of diamonds!

What other American band has been that ambitious and succeeded commercially? They accomplished something beyond that too--their tunes have snuck back into the world's most universal--and hallowed realm of musical treasures--many of their tunes have become true "standards" of the past few decades--and really successful pop is rarely as harmonically clever and rhythmically sophisticated. Sorry, I'd think only opera snobs or frustrated critics would dare dis these guys so haphazardly.

Holdsworth, to me, has written some stunning music that still stretches the boundaries of what most music writers term "fusion." When I think about "fusion" music, I thought Tony Williams' New Lifetime was a quintessential (and vital) fusion band, along with the Return To Forever quartet--but bands like the early Mahavishnu Orchestra and Weather Report really stretched the boundaries of jazz in general. Representative of typical, flashy and smart, in-the-groove fusion today is a group like Scott Henderson and Gary Willis--the musicianship is first rate, but the exploration factor is minimal. Holdsworth writes music, most often, it seems to me--to challenge his abilities as an improvisor--whereas in the best studio work of Weather Report and the mid-70s King Crimson material--tended "play down" improvised sections within the context of elaborate--and beatifully conceived compositions. AH's music these days more frequently transcends the fact he's one of the greatest improvisors and technical innovators on guitars and related instruments--I can't say the same is true of RF--but consider what RF has done for music in general; their polar opposites of sorts, apples and oranges, one >from the North, one from the South; it's very disconcerting comparing them--but they both exemplify an attitude and commitment that is, in quantum terms, a singularity.

Some of AH's technical ideas, while wonderful--have trickled anonymously into the mainstream of rock in bits and pieces--in broadening the scope of guitar solos and sounds--inspiring hard rock players like Van Halen and Alex Lifeson, and shred-meisters such as Satriani and Vai--I have no time for those guys, because their whole approach to music seems mired to me in adolesence. AH forever refined and expanded the sound of the guitar--unlike Fripp, who single-handedly opened up rock music to new degrees of artistry and near limitless boundaries in terms of other musical traditions and approaches that could be swallowed up in rock.

In the late sixties, early 70's, however, it's really curious how many parrallels there were between Fripp and Holdsworth--as completely different as they were. Holdsworth was long the sideman--fascinated with jazz and chumming with avante-jazzists like Soft Machine--and boppers like Gordon Beck and Ray Warleigh. Fripp had a vision that rock music could become a riveting, dark art with intellectual appeal to bring together classical and jazz audiences, and he went to the very avante fringe in bringing in Keith Tippett into KC; this was as unlikely (and brilliant but doomed not to last) as Bruford bringing AH into UK; Tippett and AH probably took these two involvements least seriously among their many artistic ventures. Okay, I keep plugging "UK"--but it was another unique hybrid--like the first three Crimson albums--that married jazz and broader classical and improvisational elements into rock.

This theme and continuing experiment is what always fascinated me about these artists in particular--all of them wrestling with mutating, mixing, and refining elements of 20th century genres--each with extremely different results. Be it "Lizard," "One of A Kind," "UK," or "The Royal Scam," I find it very hard to tire of any of these records for very long--because they're were so dark, fresh, and inspired.

Steely Dan approached mating jazz forms in a pop-rock context in a very different way from England's more cerebral rockers. Their jazz instincts were ingrained in their song-writing moreso than the process of adorning their music with improvisationalists taking solos. Steely Dan did not delve into the strong duality that personified King Crimson, who in their mid-period ferventlty explored free improvs--more from a European standpoint than from that of American jazz. Nevertheless, SD provided great soloists a rich pallette of rhythm and harmonies to interract with--along with the hip cynicism, which is why I think they appeal strongly to AH. I wonder what RF would say about SD? With that--I'd better check my watch and stop rambling--no more extended essays, I promise--until after I've confronted my taxes!


Just a sidenote--anybody ever heard a version of a KC tune on muzak? "Schizoid Man," or perhaps "I Talk To The Wind."

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 13:25:27 CST
From: oskardma at ukraine dot corp dot mot dot com
Subject: RF's Frame by Frame meters

Scott asks: -Frame by Frame: Well the vocal part is a base meter of 7/8 but for the 'looping procedure'(which I'm sure many of your understand) is 14/8(No different than 7/8-7/8, this is easier for reference) for Adrian and 13/8 (or 7/8-6/8) for Robert. But what about the instrumental where Fripp plays insanely fast?

My reply:

From my memory of the song, most of the fast part seems to be in 6, so I guess that would be 6/32 or something. The ending riff sounds like it's 4/32, played over Belew's 7/8.

So what do I win for a correct answer?


Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:35:44 -0500
From: lbh2 at cornell dot edu (Bruce Higgins)
Subject: 3 of a Perfect Pair Video Offer(?)

Thanks to the kindness of a fellow Disciplinarian, I have obtained a VHS copy of 3 of a Perfect Pair:KC Live in Japan. I no longer have any reason to hold on to my Betamax copy, which has been played twice, at most. Anybody out there want it (the Betamax tape)? If, against all odds, there I get more than one response, the most interesting trade offer takes it.

Discipline (I refer to this forum, but might as well include the album) is great! Thanks to everyone for sharing your insights and Fripp Encounters of the Third Kind and to Toby for keeping it running.

- Bruce
[Who still regrets getting busted by RF's personal tape goon with a D6 and Sennheisers in the middle of a monumental Red on The Pier, NYC in 1984 :-( ]

L. Bruce Higgins      Assistant Director
LBH2 at cornell dot edu      Public Affairs Information Services

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:25:48 -0800
From: rpeck at pure dot com  (Ray Peck)
Subject: Discipline #127

toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk writes:

>The funniest is that this
>bizarre beauty was singing a cover of "I talk to the Wind", the song had
>been "slightly" transformed into a dance-oriented, techno-pop-like tune.

Although I haven't seen the video, this is almost surely Opus III from their CD "Mind Fruit". Distributed by Warner, hfcd24 4509 90065 2. It's not a bad verion, actually.

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 17:00:08 -0500
From: alma at media dot mit dot edu (Suzanne McDermott)
Subject: a response from the crowd


this is a posting from a very busy (aren't most of us?) lurker on the list in response to Dave W. Fulton's "A Fripp in the Crowd", Fri, 25 Feb 94, and the previous postings which prompted that.

First of all I'd like to say that we all DO project a lot of information onto our fellow human beings (intuitive and gut reactions (is there a difference?) aside). By this, I mean that if one sees Mr. Fripp sitting alone at a table sipping a beer and one has previously been informed that he can be rather stern, etc., one might think him so when in fact, he might just be thinking about a lost chord or a found ache.

Sometimes I think we forget that those who we admire, and make somehow other because of their experiences or accamplishments, are just as human as the rest of us and equally susceptible to raging hormones, indigestion and mild aphasic espisodes.

I would say that Mr. Fripp walking away from a table where he sat sipping beer 5 minutes before show time probably means that he finished what he could of his beer and went to put his guitar on so that he could begin his performance. The fact that he signed his posters probably means that he considered it a good thing to do for those who wanted to purchase such a poster at his performance.

I met Robert back in 1981 or 82 in LA while KC was rehearsing for a TV show called "Fridays". He was quite pleasant and actually delighted to show off the plastic Beatle lenticular ring he was wearing (one of a larger collection). I admired his sturdy and lengthy fingernails. It was a brief and positive experience. He's a great guitarist, an important influence on the popular guitar style of the latter part of this century and an intelligent man. I mean, unless you have to work for the guy or something, why make such a huge deal out his personality? Maybe just because he's Fripp. (To be REALLY fair, I've gone through positive/negative feelings towards him at a distance over the years). He must find it all tremendously amusing and occasionally annoying.

Ah, the cult of personality!

Suzanne McDermott

Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 02:00:26 -0600
From: Damon C Capehart <dcapehar at utdallas dot edu>
Subject: Re: Complex Meters in songs

For the time signatures in "Iniscipline", yes, the instrumental is actually 5/4 over 4/4. The verses are actually in 4/4 swing time. Four groups of triplets, that is. You can really see how that is in the live version of the song of the first box set, _Frame by Frame_. Bruford basically keeps time with the hi-hat for the duration of the verses in this version. Until I heard the live version, I was also completely baffled by the weirdness of the meter, but the next time I listened to the studio version I picked it up right away. Coolness.

Damon Capehart           |  "SALESMEN!!!" -- Rush
dcapehar at utdallas dot edu

From: gtaylor at fullfeed dot com (Gregory Taylor)
Subject: The Essential Fripp and Eno [a pointer/review]
Date: 2 Mar 94 12:03:34 GMT

The Essential Fripp and Eno [Carol 1886-2 (U.S.)]

The Heavenly Music Corporation 20:59
Swastika Girls 18:38
Wind on Water 5:29
Evening Star 7:48
Healthy Colours I 5:36
Healthy Colours II 5:39
Healthy Colours III 5:35
Healthy Colours IV 5:35

Hot on the heels of the recent set of 20-bit remasters of a sizeable portion of Brian Eno's vocal and instrumental work, we have this new release from Virgin [out at present in Europe] and Caroline [domestic release is set for 11 March]. It's a collection drawn from the two collaborative releases that Fripp and Eno put out in the mid 70s together with some hard-or-impossible to find material from the late 70s/early 80s which has never seen the light of commercial release.

Besides the pleasure of having a nicely cleaned-up release, I think this disc is a nice balance between a reasonable and representative collection from Fripp and Eno's collaborations and a bit of rarer material to please the discriminating collector.

The artwork for the release brings Russell Mills and Bill Smith [who've done considerable design work for Eno and Fripp respectively] together for a considerably greater amount of digital collaging than I've seen them try. The packaging lacks any kind of liner notes, but is visually quite interesting.

This release contains the entire contents of the first Fripp/Eno release "No Pussyfooting" [wherein Messrs. Fripp and Eno adapt Terry Riley's signal-loop/two tape recorder technique to such advantage that nearly a generation of youthful listeners will grow up believing that Fripp and Eno invented it] from 1973, two shorter cuts from their second "Evening Star, and four versions of what was to have been their third collaborative effort. This release, like the recent Eno box sets, is a 20-bit remaster of the original material (which should please the golden-eared in our midst and provide the less aurally gifted with the vague sense that things are going well).

I kind of suspected that one might choose to include all of "No Pussyfooting" for historical reasons; it's perhaps one of the cheapest recordings made [done one evening after a bottle of wine in Eno's living room, if the story's true], and it remains oddly edgy and tentative - although it's not as comfortably thought through as the later "Evening Star", there's more of the sense of the moment about the material on "No Pussyfooting": the result of a single first-time encounter with this new system which requires that you act and bear the consequences. The timbral range of it seems at first listen to be more limited than ES, but I think that's a logical consequence of listening to Fripp and Eno grabbing noise from the ethers while this huge tape juggernaut hurtles along at the speed of life.

Although the extreme die-hard slobbering Fripp/Eno partisan might well wonder what happened to "An Index of Metals" - a 20-odd minute slab of edgy urban tritone-laced Frippertronics which suggested a greater range for Fripp and Eno's tape-loop work than the usual consonances, they will, I think, be mollified at the inclusion of the four alternate takes/mixes. It's clear from the "History of Ambient Vol. 1" release that the folks at Virgin/Caroline think that Fripp's ecstatic soloing on the edge of fedback chaos on "Evening Star" combined with Eno's judicious piano and synth deserves a place in the ambient canon; I've *always* been of that opinion [to this day, it remains as one of those pieces which, when played on my radio program, always lights up the phone lines]. TEFaE also chooses to include "Wind on Water", one of the more saturated performances that Fripp produced. Indeed, it's one of those pieces which comes at you as a kind of wall of initially undifferentiated consonance which comes apart when you pay closer attention to it [references to Seurat here, perhaps?]. It wasn't until years later when I actually *saw* Fripp do something like this live in real time that I actually realized how very simple the piece is.

"Healthy Colours [I,II,III,IV]" is a bit of drumbox-driven "Bush of Ghosts"-era Lexicon monkeying with found radio voices and what must be some of the lowest, meanest dinosaur guitar grunting that Mr. Fripp has (however sparingly: you've pretty much got to wait for take III to hear much of it) committed to aspic. These cuts have been in *extremely* limited circulation [my copy came to me in the early-mid eighties in the form of an Nth-hand dub that is vastly inferior to what's here], and the inclusion of the alternate versions also gives us a rather rare chance to hear an Eno piece in "cartoon" form and get a sense of the process of assembly/presentation.

Just a quick caveat: If your idea of Robert Fripp is King Crimson, then this may seem either as a long lead break of undeniable intensity rather than the stuff of prog-rock orthodoxy. If your idea of Eno is the foregrounded dilletante knob-twirler, you may find him to have receded into the background a bit more than your tastes may allow. No drum machines at all until the very end. I think it's a strong piece of work, and it wears well on the ears. Very well.

With every good wish,

In the desert I prayed only for mercy, not happiness, not vindication,
willing to settle. No price can be too high, no cruelty excessive if the
end finds cruelty exhausted and mercy audible as a hammer's sound in rain.
Gregory Taylor/email: gtaylor at heurikon dot com/voice 608-828-3385 or 608-246-9621

From: syd at casbah dot acns dot nwu dot edu (David Bohnsack)
Subject: Psychodots and Belew
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 11:29:38 -0600 (CST)

Last night in Chicago, I was privileged to be present at a concert by the Psychodots (aka the Raisins, aka the Bears) at which Adrian Belew played five songs with the band. It has been seven years since I've seen the Bears, and they were as fresh and exciting (albeit older and wiser) as they were back then. At one point guitarist Rob Fetters blew up an ordinary toy balloon and held it to the strings of his Strat and proceeded to sing (or yell) into the balloon, thereby modulating the strings and producing some very bizarre sounds. At one point, both Fetters and Bassists-demigod Bob Nyswonger were yelling into the balloon. They played about ten songs, some new and some from their two CDs. They are a very tight band (these three have been playing together for a long time, can any Raisins fans tell me how long?) Drummer Chris (Little Blue River) Arduser played mandolin to open one of his new songs called Hell. Another new song called the Mattress Song seemed to really spark the crowd, and it still sticks in my head this morning (so it left a very deep impression on my neural net). A great rock and roll time was had by all...

...And then they brought up Adrian. Together, they played Burned by the Fire We Make, I See You, and a few other songs from the New Adrian Belew disk. It will be titled "HERE" (as in: I'd Rather Be Right Here) and it is due out April 8. He also announced that he will be touring with the Psychodots in support of the album starting in June. I guess this puts the King Crimson revival off for a little while longer, but hopefully he will earn a good pile of money so he can stick it out with KC a for long time (see Discipline #127: the letter from Fripp).

Then, to our collective horror, Adrian left the stage. The band played on with its distinctive groove. They finished there set with the Raisins' song Fear is Never Boring (I know it was on The Bears, but it is a Raisins song) The rehearsed encore was: Rabbit Manor ("written especially for tonight"). Nyswonger did an awesome solo that left the crowd doing the All Hail Bob homage Bears fans will remember. A second, unrehearsed, encore ("we'll all watch this guy in the front row for the words") was a shakey version of Superboy from the first Bears album. The ever congenial and accessible Adrian Belew (in contrast with Mr Fripp) was then seen walking around the small club shaking hands and exchanging witticisms with his adoring fans. Don't expect Adrian to show up at any Psychodots show, he probably just drove his old fat cadillac down from Lake Geneva for the show. He brought a minimal compliment of effects and just the one purple Strat and a Fender Amp. But the effects weren't missed. He can do his unique guitar magic without all that stuff. Any Belew fan should enjoy the Psychodots. Fetters has mastered a lot of the Belew tricks and wizardries. He is the most qualified to trade licks with Mr Belew, and certainly holds his own when Belew isn't around.

...she spices her icings precisely, arousing me aromatically..

dlb						|
Isn't it good to be lost in the wood...		|
						|    syd at nwu dot edu
						|    Northwestern University

Date: Sun, 06 Mar 1994 20:57:20 -0500 (cdt)
From: Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man <MOHANJP at AC dot GRIN dot EDU> (John P Mohan)
Subject: time and lark's 2

My band (VIVID) did Lark's 2 in concert a few times. While it is a fun song to play, it requires a very level head and a lot of concentration, especially for me, the drummer.

On Feb. 27, Scott L. wrote:

Lark's Tongues pt II: Most of the riffs seem to be in 10/8 but the hard part that starts with the guitar chords and has the twisted violin solo seems to be in some wierd combo of 3/4 and 4/4...

The three of us who play on this song (our singer/other guitarist sits out), when learning the song and dissecting it, found that the easiest approach was not to try and find out exactly what time signatures were being used, but to play the parts the way they sounded and rely more on feel than strict counting. As far as the section with the violin solo, I think of it as groups of two eighth notes, with a group of three eighth notes thrown in at the end of each phrase, like so:

1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-1, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-1...

While it is good theory to try and determine time signatures, it's more practical to simply find groupings like the ones above, at least in the case of a band learning a song without using sheet music, transcrptions, etc.

Lark's II has always been one of my favorite songs, and is one of the best showcases of the band's talent, especially Mr. Bruford

JP "I do think it's good" Mohan

Date: Sun, 06 Mar 1994 21:03:41 -0500 (cdt)
From: Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man <MOHANJP at AC dot GRIN dot EDU> (John P Mohan)
Subject: Talking to the Wind

A certain techno group (which I can't remember the name of right now) did "I Talk To The Wind" with the usual techno re-workings. I was at a friend's house this summer and the stereo was playing techno and all of a sudden I heard a female voice singing the chorus of the song. I was astonished and quickly ran to the CD player to find out what was going on. There was the CD, and the song was called "I Talk To The Wind" and writing was credited to Fripp, etc. I was quite impressed, because the song worked pretty well in the techno genre. I could kick myself for not remembering the name of the group, but if I see my friend again I'll ask her.

What's next, "Elephant Techno"?

JP "I repeat myself when under stress" Mohan

From: Clive Backham <clive at gandalf dot mdis dot co dot uk>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 16:00:15 GMT

In Discipline #127, RAMIZ at vms dot huji dot ac dot il@cs.man.ac.uk wrote:

>(6) Tony Levin fans - I've heard on local radio that he's participated in a
>     project called "Spin 1 2" (or something alike). It's a one-record-project
>     where the play renditions of some 60s and 70s songs (maybe there's a
>     thread). I've heard All Along The Watchtower (singer was ex-Squeeze's
>     Paul Carrack(sp?), can't recall other musicians but they are well-known).

Spin 1 2 is primarily a Rupert Hine project, and he plays keyboards. Tony Levin plays bass, Paul Carrack is on it (vocals and a bit of Hammond). I can't remember the names of the guitarist and drummer. They cover alot of rock classics. It is all done *very* professionally: note perfect, dynamics just-so, rhythms accurate to the millisecond. Unfortunately, it has no soul. The thing is just too sanitised.

Oh, and the sleeve notes are hilarious: misquoted stuff from Steven Hawking about spin numbers of quantum particles. And we wonder where prog rock got its reputation for pretentiousness from :-)

Clive Backham
McDonnell Douglas, UK
email: cbackham at mdis dot co dot uk

From: "David Altemir"  <ALTEMIRD at samnet dot jsc dot nasa dot gov>
Date:     7 Mar 1994 9:02:33 CDT6CST
Subject:  Discipline Decoded

Scott Lillis's letter from Discipline #127 encouraged me to spend this weekend analyzing the meter of several King Crimson songs. Like Scott, I also think that Discipline is one of the most technically interesting songs Fripp & Co. have produced. Therefore, I managed to produce a MIDI sequence of Discipline using my Ensoniq KS-32 synth and Cakewalk software . . . What fun! In going through that tune note by note I believe I have uncovered some 6/8 parts that Scott did not mention previously. Basically, Discipline has 11 "verses" which I programmed as:

Verse#      Time Sig.

1                   5/4     <---Intro
2                   4/4
1                   5/4
2                   4/4
3                 15/8
4                   5/4      <---here's where the cymbals come in
5                   5/4
6                 15/8
7                   6/8
8                   6/8
9                 15/8      <---Closing

I believe the missing notes Scott was looking for in Verse 3 (F# ? ? E ? F# ? ? E ? F# ? ? A ?) are B and C#. However, it is not a clear case of B and C# filling in the empty spots at the "?"'s. That is to say, sometimes these notes are laid on top of the other guitar's notes. Anyway, I hope this helps.

If anyone has some MIDI equipment out there and is interested in trading KC sequences, I'll be glad to E-mail you the MIDI file of Discipline. The song is in its entirety ( and IMHO sounds extremely authentic) and I am about 99% sure that all the parts are correct. Alternatively, if you don't have a synth but read music, I'll be glad to paper mail anyone a laser copy of the two guitar parts using my staff notation software.

Thanks for the inspiration, Scott!

David Altemir
NASA/Johnson Space Center
altemird at samnet dot jsc dot nasa dot gov
(713) 483-6427

From: "David Altemir"  <ALTEMIRD at samnet dot jsc dot nasa dot gov>
Date:     7 Mar 1994 11:02:03 CDT6CST
Subject:  Frame by Frame/KC MIDI Files

Related to my previous message and Scott Lillis's original message (Discipline #127) , I have started sequencing Frame by Frame on my synth. It appears that the part where RF plays insanely fast is in 4/4 although Fripp is actually playing 3/8 (i.e., 6 16th notes a la machine gun style) and Adrian and Bruford are punctuating within a 4/4 framework.

I have not been able to find any KC MIDI files posted in the archives I am familiar with. Does anyone know where I can find some or does anyone have some sequences of their own I can download?

David Altemir
NASA/Johnson Space Center
altemird at samnet dot jsc dot nasa dot gov
(713) 483-6427

Date: Tue, 08 Mar 1994 09:51:29 +1000
From: keens at pitvax dot xx dot rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens)
Subject: fripp as an anus

the fripp is an a**hole (or a***hole for english speakers) discussion prompts me to a few points

a) i hope fripp isn't reading this - he may decide not to forward material to such a meanminded bunch (and that would be a shame - the very interesting digest becomes even more compulsory when we hear from him).

b) there are bigger things to complain about than not autographs - like 60 minute sets with no encores (rollong stones from the early seventies here) awful sound (david bowie - stopped me going to concerts) etc. at the end of a busy day, after a sequence of lectures/pracs/tutorials i want to get out of here without stopping to chat to students.

c) i hope fripp is reading this cause

d) he's an a**(*)whole - he has never brought a crimson, a league (of gentlemen or guitarists) or a sylvian fripp to our shores in my crimson career , which started with ITCOf (to my knowledge). NOW that is something to complain about.

e) small comfort - a relative in the US is buying me the great deceiver (couldnt come at $140 aus) so that, together with USA and earthbound will have to suffice.


Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 16:03:27 -0800
From: John Fabiani <johnx at wrs dot com>
Subject: Vocal tounges aspects.

Hi Folks,

JaY KuHn laid this info on us:

]Eno Voice: If you have all the CD's, not worth it except
]this has RAF, Seven Deadly Finns and (hey it's rare)
]Lion Sleeps Tonight. They did a hell of a re-mastering job,
]and I am not sure if the other Eno CD's have been remastered

Uh, there are also 7 or so previously unreleased tracks from an abondoned project called "My Squelchy Life" There is some Fripp on these tracks, I believe. These are not on any (ENO) cd and are the reason I bought (and am content with) the vocal box set.


- johnx

Date: Tue, 08 Mar 1994 11:17:00 +0800
From: DDUDGEON at hkucc dot hku dot hk
Subject: Re: Discipline #127

This is periferal to KC/RF et al., but can anyone give me the lowdown on the Van der GG/Peter Hammill FAQ mentioned in the message from Rami in the latest 'Discipline'? Then again, maybe not too peripheral given that Fripp has recorded with VdGG and PH gave an excellent vocal performance on 'Exposure' (PH as singer in a future KC??).

Many thanks ..... David

Date: Tue, 08 Mar 1994 14:18:16 -0000 (GMT)
From: Chris Hedley <cbh at welux5 dot wlo dot dec dot com>
Subject: Fripp/Willcox collaborations

terry kroetsch f <tkroetsc at mach1 dot wlu dot ca> writes:

>I'm trying to think of other rarities that might fill that out. Some
>Fripp and Toyah? Any ideas?

Apart from the obvious SAOTW, I can think of the following recordings offhand;

I don't actually know of any other recordings, but if anyone else does I'd be interested to hear of them!


Chris Hedley                Digital Equipment Co ltd, Welwyn, Hertfordshire, UK

Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 17:27:08 GMT
From: Toby Howard <toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk>
Subject: More RF correspondence

Here is a letter to RF from DW of Kings Langley, followed by Robert's reply. (Here # == U.K. pounds sterling)



Attention: Robert Fripp - Recording Artist
Virgin Records
Kensal House
553-579 Harrow Road
London W10 4RH

Re: Royal Albert Hall performance- 5/12/93

Dear Robert,

I am saddened and let down by you. My wife and I have been fans of yours
for years. She saw you on the "Discipline" tour and I saw you for the first
time at the Royal Albert Hall performance with David Sylvian this month.

Well, actually, I didn't 'see' you. I 'heard' you - I think. You knew you
weren't going to perform and be lit at the same time, and we didn't. I was
simply confused. I didn't know where to look. Should I strain my eyes to
see your brilliant craftsmanship?

We have followed your career through The Roches, King Crimson, League of
Crafty Guitarists, etc. We know your sound. We paid to 'see' and 'hear'

Sure, I could have let go of my ideas or pictures of what a concert is
supposed to be like. I've done it before. However, I wanted to 'see' you
playing guitar.

The bottom line for me is that you didn't take responsibility for your actions.
You, nor David Sylvian, communicated to us about this 'choice' you made to
play in the dark. Since David was doing all the singing, maybe he could have
said, "Excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, Robert will not be spotted with light
tonight because he finds it easier to perform in a dimly lit situation and
apologises for not being fully lit. I imagine you may have expected to see him
clearly because he is co-billed as the main attraction. He believes that this
choice of not being lit will ultimately provide him with the space to give his best
performance and thus give you your money's worth." Truthfully, I think it
should have been you saying this. If you did this, all would be forgiven - I
promise you.

At first, we spent most of our time thinking there was a technical problem.
Then we got the point. Then we battled between straining to see you play
your leads and, at the same time, focus on the distraction of the rhythm
section who were strongly lit in white light. As a trained concert listener
and viewer, I think the eyes and ears go to who is playing the lead if no
one is singing. Your not being lit knocked us off balance and detracted
from the whole purpose of the show which, in my mind, is to perform to your
maximum potential.

If that was your best effort, then I think you are a fraud or simply one
who is not an aware person. Not being lit, is a big 'fuck-you' to the
audience when you know perfectly well that people would be disappointed by
not seeing you.  It is a tease and a manipulation. Maybe one day you will
get the attention off yourself. Getting the attention off yourself is a
type of selflessness which is greatly appreciated by the listener/viewer.

A man once told me, "When you get to the point where you know you are no
better and no worse than any other being who has ever lived, you will have
reached your pinnacle as an artist." Until you reach that point, Robert, I
feel sorry for you and wish you peace of mind in the quiet, unconscious,
daily living 'hell' that you are keeping yourself in.

You can please send me #21 to pay me back for the show. You didn't earn it,
sorry. I am open to a reply from you.

For your information, I will not stop buying your recordings. I am not that
extreme, however, I have talked others who attended the show and have made
the decision to not support you any more with CD purchases or going to your
live performances.

Yours truly,


Dear DW of Kings Langley

I was saddened and upset by your rude, insulting, presumptuous and
deliberately unkind letter. That you have a sufficient passion for music to
write the letter is reassuring and heartening to me; that you allow no room
for any interpretation other than your own of the RAH show, nor an
alternative approach to audience/performer responsibilities, and respond
only in the nasty and graceless fashion which you have is
disappointing. Regrettably, the tone of your letter typifies the quality of
public debate. Given your intentionally offensive manner, you may
understand why I shall not enter a discussion with you regarding the issues
you raised, which are in themselves interesting and have been a major
concern of mine for many years.

If you consider me a fraud then you make my life easier: you abandon the
demands which your expectations make of me.

You "feel sorry for (RF) and wish (me) peace of mind in the quiet,
unconscious, daily living 'hell' that (I am) keeping (myself) in". Uh,
thanks for your kind feelings, Dave, and I'm really sorry that I'm such a
terrible person. Forgive me, but your arrogance is breathtaking, even to
one whose breath has been taken many times. Your only possible excuse for
that one is youth.

You mention the decision to support me, or not, through records and
shows. Although the audience can choose the performer, the performer has to
take the audience as given. This is clearly inequitable. You seem to assume
I want, and perhaps should be grateful for, your "support". My life as a
musician isn't undertaken either to get rich or become popular. So please
be informed that the author of your letter is not a person I wish to have
in my audience (whether in person or in an extended sense). Neither do I
want, nor feel the need for, your "support" nor for that of any audience
which assumes its right to impose on me its particular expectations of how
I meet my responsibilities (which your letter in any case disputes). I know
the extent of my training and experience, but I have met few members of the
audience whose training has been quite as extensive.

You ask me to send you #21 to pay you back for the show as I "didn't earn
it". I've considered the fairest response to this.  Firstly, you did at
least see David Sylvian, and three other musicians. My own contribution was
surely less than half.  Secondly, both audience and performer take a risk
on the performance. The audience gets an artist who may not meet their
expectations, and a performer might get someone as lacking in charity and
courtesy as yourself. Thirdly, anyone with a measure of familiarity with my
work (which you claim) might reasonably expect the performance to be
not-quite-as-you-might expect.

So, #21 shared between us both x 40% (a poor estimate of the 3 musicians'
performance) = #4.20. Although not much for you we haven't considered the
expenses I carry and I doubt that you'd want the bill for those. Enclosed
is a cheque for #4.20 on the understanding that you will never again come
to a concert at which I am performing.


Date: Wed, 09 Mar 1994 13:04:46 -0600 (CST)
From: HILL_T at DT3 dot DT dot UH dot EDU
Subject: Fripp's contacts

If anyone could help me with this, it would clear up a little mystery. I seem to remember Fripp saying that he still keeps in touch with nearly all the past members of KC. I was wondering who this includes especially the following:

Greg Lake- this guy has been known to say some very cruel things about Fripp and KC including the notion that the first KC is the only real KC and the other incarnations have been Fripp and session musicians. He also mentioned in '81 of how Fripp was living in the past with that version of KC and that Lake's solo album around that time was showing how he was able to move on into the future. I seem to remember an ELP reunion recently that I witnessed in concert. In my opinion, KC has evolved and ELP is trying to recapture old glories instead of striking new ground. KC has the respect of not just the "classic rock" crowd but the great new young bands. Can't picture Sonic Youth and other punk bands respecting ELP too much...but that's fine. I got into ELP because I like Lake's voice. What I want to know is if Lake has stopped calling Fripp an asshole cashing in on the past and if Fripp has forgiven him.

Gordon Haskell-very strange story here. I noticed that in the remixes on the box set, that GH was specifically knocked out of the picture. Both his bass and vocals were replaced by repectfully, Levin and Belew. What happened here? Why specifically Haskell? Falling out?

Pete Sinfield-what's old Pete up to?

Jamie Muir-one of the most interesting of KC's members. Hope he returns to music, though I hope he's happy with painting.

Bill Bruford-OK, what's the REAL story with this old chum?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm sure others out there are just as baffled as I.


Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 10:18 EST
From: REX W FERMIER <_REXWFERM_+a_S_+lREX_W_FERMIER+r%Sargent_&Lundy_Engineers at mcimail dot com>
Subject: The Anagram Program

Hi Toby,

Since you posted my message about the "hidden messages" in the title Lark's Tongues In Aspic, I have received many requests for information about the program I used. Please consider posting the following information about the shareware program I used.

The program's name is, simply, "THE ANAGRAM PROGRAM". I found it on a local BBS under the file name ANAGR101.ZIP. It requires a windows environment to operate. The author is Tim Hill and his internet address is 76166 dot 2533 at compuserve dot com , his mail address is 33 Vanderwater, #203, San Francisco, Calif. 94133. The author is asking for $10 for this program.

Mike Stok