Elephant Talk #1248 (as text)

23 December 2006

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:30:52 -0500
From: Don Cooper <ET00451 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: "Indiscipline" lyrics

Glenn, and fellow ET'ers,

I read years ago that Adrian's lyrics to "Indiscipline" are about a letter he received from his wife.


Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 18:04:19 +0000
From: Sam Scali <ET06775 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: Re: Discipline symbol

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I have another interesting question regarding the "Discipline" symbol. The original LP and CD editions featured a noticeably different design (the looping is more dense and symmetrical) from what is used on subsequent reissues. Does anybody know why this change was made? Was the original icon no longer legally unavailable? I much prefer the initial configuration to its replacement.


Sam Scali

>I see that the "mark" on the cover of Discipline is copywrighted by the
>artist (and untitled?), maybe this had something to do with the difiuclty
>in finding the album on CD, I don't know.
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:28:13 -0000
From: Gareth.Page <ET05756 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: Larks' tongues in Autumn Grass?

After a period of more than 30 years I rediscovered Autumn Grass by Continuum, an anglo-hungarian effort released in 1971 The line-up consisted of Yoel Schwarcz-classical guitar, flute, harmonica, recorder, sax; Tim Rice-organ, piano; Peter Billam-bass guitar, electric guitar; Harvey Troupe-drums. And no, not the Tim Rice who wrote lyrics for some awful musicals The liner notes suggest that the album combines Elizabethan music and rock, a fair comment when you see the track listing includes Vivaldi's concerto in D major (also played by Steve Hackett with his acoustic trio). The title track takes up the entire second side. This was written by Patric Standford, the Yorkshire-born composer, and is quite avant garde for an early 70s (ostensibly) rock album, and includes a short violin section that is very reminiscent of sections of Larks' Tongues part 1 and Providence. The two vinyl copies I've bought both have a fair amount of surface noise, which does interfere with your listening pleasure on some of the quiet sections, but I strongly recommend this to any LTIA-era crimhead.

Baz Page

Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:01:14 -0600
From: Scott Ranalli <ET05672 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: Re: Discipline symbol

This post is regarding Glenn A's message in the latest Elephant Talk newsletter about the meaning of the lyrics of Indiscipline.

FYI, the lyrics for Indiscipline came from a telephone conversation Adrian had with his wife while he was on the road. She was referring to a painting or sculpture (I can't remember which) she had recently completed. My source for this information was a magazine interview Adrian did at the time of the album.

Adrain looking at his guitar is just some showmanship on his part.



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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 18:34:29 +0000
From: Mr Tea <ET01335 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: Re: Origin of the name King Crimson

This from jdanna03 at comcast dot net in ET #1247i...

> Specifically, does the name refer to the psychotropic mushroom
> Amanita muscaria, the fly agaric, which has long been associated with
> Beelzebub?

The name King Crimson was actually derived from a particularly potent 'brand' of LSD tab that was doing the rounds in the mid-to-late sixties. It was coloured with cochineal food colouring to distinguish it from 'ordinary' tabs, and was referred to as 'King Crimson' because of its effectiveness and vivid hue. Pete Sinfield was a heavy user when he first joined forces with McDonald, Lake, Giles and Fripp, and already had a bulging portfolio of far-out lyrics and poems based on the visions and hallucinations he had experienced while under the influence of the drug. One of these was, of course, 'In the Court of the Crimson King', and while the eponymous king referred to in the song may well be a reference to Beelzebub, it was the candy-coloured source of Pete's inspiration (rather than the result) that provided the newly-formed band with its name.

As any Crimson historian will know, Pete was a fearlessly adventurous drug enthusiast during the years that he was involved with the band, and he also indulged in regular cocktails of heroin and cocaine. The lyrics for '21st Century Schizoid Man' were written under the influence of this brain-frying combo, and there is an obvious contrast with the luminous, fantastical imagery of his LSD-inspired lyrics for 'Epitaph', 'Moonchild' and 'Court'. It's probably fortunate that the band didn't know in advance that 'Schizoid Man' would become their signature song for all eternity, otherwise they might have called themselves 'Speedball'.

pp Mr Tea


Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:21:08 +0000
From: Tarquin Folgate-Norton <ET06776 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: Indiscipline lyrics

Regarding the lyrics to Indiscipline.. they are about a letter Ade received from his wife (and this was told by Mr Belew himself). I can't remember where I read this but it all fell into place when I found this out.

The knotwork on the cover was initially thought to be a traditional symbol but later found to be a specific work by Steve Ball www.steveball.com/knotwork/index.htm and therefore all the usual copywrite issues came into play.


Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:50:08 -0600 (CST)
From: ktulu19 <ET06792 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: Fripp photos and ProjeKct 2

The ProjeKct 2 CD "Live Groove" has a CD case plastered with photos of Robert playing guitar on stage. I find it somewhat amusing that they must have been taken by a flash-photographer while the CD contains a looong sound-clip at the end of '21st Century Schizoid Man' during which Robert has walked off the stage in the middle of an improvisation because an audience member took his picture. Is the audience member snapping a pic more disturbing than a professional with a powerful flash that is in closer proximity? I assume he must have had some forewarning that the band was to be photographed by someone paid to take his picture. I'm just surprised that he even agreed to that instead of opting for a CD package without band photos when he is so vehement against the interruption of the creative act.

Praying for Crim Mk. IX (?) to be unveiled someday,

Rick Deresz

Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:41:56 -0500 (EST)
From: ebh4 <ET04719 at elephant-talk dot com>
Subject: TCOL/TPTB Gatefolds

Am I the only one chomping at the bit for these to get released? I think it would add a nice touch to my current collection of KC merch and I think we should fill out a petition for interested parties in completing the gatefold editions of the KC catalog?

Would anyone else be interested?


Mike Stok