Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #122 D I S C I P L I N E The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 122, Friday, 21 January 1994 Today's Topics: Re: Discipline #120 & #121 Belew's Guitar Tuning Techniques Re: Discipline #121 Submission for _Discipline_ Another review of "The First Day" Bill Bruford on Symphonic Yes Tour The KC poll results! Re: Discipline #121 Road to Graceland Beat Crimson on laserdisc! Eddie Jobson scores TV show. ELP schizoid man Darshan mini-album? Was it released? Re: Sylvian & Fripp (Darshan Mini-album - is it out?) Oh, yes, it's about Fripp again Re: Fripp Discipline Submission Muir i/v GGF guitar? Possibilities i fall up Re: Fripp? Discipline/Guitar open letter to Fripp [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Hello everyone, and Happy New Year to you all. My apologies for the delay in getting the first issue of '94 out, and its consequent largeness. Things are back to normal now -- I hope! I'll just take this opportunity to say "thanks" to everyone who's been in touch recently. It's really appreciated. There are so many nice people here. You'll notice we're still called "Discipline". I'd intended the rename to happen with the first issue of '94, but haven't got this together yet. Anyway, I'm looking forward to a stimulating year with the list. Best wishes Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Robert dot Pietkivitch at att dot com Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 12:58:47 CST Subject: Re: Discipline #120 & #121 I just want to say thankyou to Robert for his most excellent "Road to Graceland" article. A great approach to music. I can grok it. :) Re: Energy conservation )>Actually I interpreted this as either shyness (if not outright stage )>fright) or perhaps as distaste for live performance. [...] ) )It seems that you are clearly lost in your observations and that you do not )understand music or Robert Fripp. If you study the ideas of Robert Fripp, )you will see that it is a total waste of energy to dance about the stage )like Eddie Van Halen with his guitar at hei crotch. If you open your eyes )and watch Fripp, you will see that his motions are graceful and with )purpose. Ah... well, anyway.. ) )Lilie Right, from what I understand, a musician such as Fripp lets music flow through him and as such does not let himself get in the way. If you've not seen the RFSQ video, order it today (from Possible Productions). It is a terrific video of a great performance. I was surprized by what Trey Gunn played on his stick, before seeing the video, I had thought that Robert playes some of those solos. The video is well worth it. Re: Peter Sinfield -- "Stillusion" Wow! Are you saying that Still is now available on cd?? I wonder why it's renamed "Stillusion"? From the track listing you also posted it seems that they've been reordered some and include a couple of bonus tracks! This is one cd I've got to get. -- Bob Pietkivitch | "Where blizzards, blast the spirit of man, rjp1 at ctc dot ih dot att dot com | the frailest of beasts." -- Genesis, Pacidy 1970 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: "David Altemir" Date: 22 Dec 1993 13:55:32 CDT6CST Subject: Belew's Guitar Tuning Techniques Does anyone know what guitar tuning Adrian Belew used on songs like *Dig Me* and *Man with an Open Heart*? I think he employed some eastern-style scales which require that each string be lowered by a semitone. Does anyone know something about these technicalities? [ I recall reading that it's regular EADGBE, but raising the G to A -- Toby ] [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 14:59:21 EST From: dabl2 at nlm dot nih dot gov (Don A.B. Lindbergh) Subject: Re: Discipline #121 > Date: 22 Dec 93 08:31:40 EDT > From: Didier Boclet CNRS FRANCE > Subject: Thanks (for) giving > > This second tribute from Robert to us is probably the best gift ever made > on these internet things. No kidding. That one post is reason enough to subscribe for a year. Thanks Robert. --Don [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 13:11:11 -0800 From: hmessenger at picard dot consilium dot com (Long distance runner, what you standin' there for?) Subject: Submission for _Discipline_ After reading the latest _Discipline_, I feel compelled to respond. The reason Robert Fripp sits down when he plays is that sitting down with the right foot elevated is the correct position to play the guitar. Watching Robert play guitar is like watching Norm Abram make a cabinet -- they both do everything exactly the right way, with a grace and economy of movement that almost makes me weep. My only semi-personal encounter with Robert took place at the Berkeley Greek theater stop on the _Three of a Perfect Pair_ tour. My friends and I had general admission tickets, but we knew that this included the first six rows. So we got there early, and had a picnic. We saw the band head towards the stage about 3 hours before the show, and they played about a 45 minute soundcheck, which we heard from outside. After the soundcheck, Robert came out and talked to the dozen-or-so of us who were waiting. He asked us why we were there so early, and we told him so we could actually see the band... After reading Robert's "Letter to the Editor," I'm reminded that he, like Richard Feynman, makes me feel so inadequate as a human being. If I were only a better, more disciplined person, I'd be a better guitarist/ physicist/computer programmer. - hbm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: gtaylor%vme dot heurikon dot com%heurikon dot UUCP at cs dot wisc dot edu (Gregory Taylor) Subject: Another review of "The First Day" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 15:06:32 CST David Sylvian/Robert Fripp "The First Day" [Virgin] As I mentioned earlier, this would be one of the first discs I'd normally list, and my tendency to favor the work of *either* man on their own drove me into my usual fits of self-criticism just to make sure it wasn't just the usual amount of bonehead adoration. So I went over a bunch of other stuff and listened to the "Darshan" remix disc with the Grid and the Future Sound of London taking their turns at rescuing this album cut from the scourge of being "TOO LONG". Then I went through the non-CD B-sides from the "Jean the Birdman" single and listened to the live bits ["Blinding Light of Heaven" and "The First Day"], thinking about maybe saying that this *almost* made the list and would have if only they'd rearranged and reincluded a bit here and there. But at a certain point, I realized that I was doing *way* more than necessary. Fripp has a really interesting songwriter to work with whose sense of what "sounds" appropriate in a recording neatly balances his usual Frippian tendencies. Where the Sunday All Over the World project stuck RF with a drummer of his choosin' who could at best manage foursquare quotes from Shriekback's "The Reptiles and I", TFD adds a little swing, a little groove, and lets RF play against *that*. Trey Gunn's Big Stick covers lots of the basses nicely, Sylvian is quite judicious in his use of the bullhorn and the occasional atmospheric keyboard. And he's a good deal more immediate with his songwriting this time out. This is a much better record than I might have expected, given that there are probably entire third-world nations with smaller egos than *either* man. Fripp has some great stuff to work with, Sylvian turns up, the stuff [with the point remaining that, however well it worked live, "Darshan" still doesn't deserve the album length] is right up there. I don't miss Bruford or Belew, I don't miss Jansen or Barbieri. And finally, they let Michael Brook open for them. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 02:20:06 EST From: Greg dot Andrade at um dot cc dot umich dot edu Subject: Bill Bruford on Symphonic Yes Tour In response to the criticism of Bill Bruford for continuing to play old Yes material, this time on the Symphonic tour, I must mention the fact that Mr. Bruford has not had the best of success with the good old music business lately. His Earthworks group, along with its completed live album, were dropped from its record label and Mr. Bruford was left with the task of compensating the record company for some strange reason. Bruford has been cheated by the industry a few times, and he may need to do a Yes project or two to put food on the table. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: tlkalka at mailbox dot syr dot edu (Terrance L Kalka II) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 05:10:11 EST Subject: The KC poll results! Sorry this took so long to get out, but I lost my notebook! I was a little bummed by the lack of responses, but I recognize that A)it's a hectic time, B)KC fans are a select breed of higher life forms. That said, here we go: YOUR FAVORITE ALBUM 1.Discipline 2.Starless and Bilbe Black 3.The Great Deceiver 4.Larks' Tongues in Aspic 5.Red Also mentioned: Island, Lizard, Beat ("Also mentioned" means that the selection received one vote only) YOUR FAVORITE INDIVIDUAL TRACK (STUDIO) 1.(tie) Fracture, Red, Starless 2.(tie) Frame by Frame, Exiles, One More Red Nightmare Also mentioned: Easy Money, Cat Food, The Night Watch, The Great Deceiver, 21st Century Schizoid Man, Requiem, Cirkus, Happy Family, Larks' Tongues in Aspic: Part One (I counted Fracture despite the fact that it is technically a live recording) YOUR FAVORITE INDIVIDUAL TRACK (LIVE) 1.(tie) Starless, The Sheltering Sky, 21st Century Schizoid Man (USA) 2.(tie) Fracture, Indiscipline, Larks' Tongues in Aspic: Part Two Also mentioned: Groon, Exiles, Sailor's Tale, Dig Me, Thela Hun Ginjeet, Schizoid Man (Earthbound) YOUR FAVORITE NON-KC FRIPP PROJECT This was a little funky, so instead of listing individual albums or songs, I categorized the votes by collaboration: 1.Eno 2.Bowie 3.Sylvian 4.(tie) Andy Summers, Van Der Graaf Generator Also mentioned: LoG, Sunday All Over The World YOUR FAVORITE KC RELATED, NON-FRIPP PROJECT I originally worded this question improperly, so there were a lot of odd respon-ses No single project received more than one vote. Bill Bruford: Bruford, Earthworks Adrian Belew: Talking Heads, The Bears Tony Levin: Lone Bear, Peter Gabriel (3rd album) Peter Sinfield: Still Gordon Haskell: Hambledon Hill Eddie Jobson (does he count?): Frank Zappa Also, Catherine Wheels "Fripp" was submitted. Thanks to everyone who responded. Happy Holidays! Terry [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 18:31:45 -0400 (EDT) From: terry kroetsch f Subject: Re: Discipline #121 I've got questions - if you have answers, let me or us know! 1/ Does someone have a complete rundown of Trey Gunn and or/Michael Brook (the most remarkable part of Fripp/Sylvian live-there is a CD from the Japanese tour - I can send you details) 2/ What CD singles and tracks were released from the latest Fripp/Sylvian recording? 3/ Fripp mentioned his recent work with Orb and Grid - what? Does someone know more? I'm tired of checking Ord CDs and searching for Grid(?) CDs.... 4/ Tell me there will be more Sunday all Over the World music - there were some great moments.. 5/ Were there King Crimson fan clubs in the past? How can one get backissues (Ihave ONE issue of Nightwatch from England - I'd be glad to mail out photo copies if I can find it! 6/ What's Wetton doing now - is there an address to reach him? OK - I'll stop there. Oh, one more thing:thoughts of ELP's recording of 21st Century (where Lake finally pronounces *napalm* correctly?) I think it's hysterical. I do hope there will be some discussion of the first line-up - it is what got me into them. Any reviews of the first LP or first gigs would be welcome by me, anyway. Thanks, Terry K 42nd at Treadmill Red Islands, Earthbound FMB GL5 (you figure it out) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 24 Dec 93 09:44:22 EDT From: Didier Boclet Frogland Subject: Road to Graceland My last msg being truncated by a system crash, I though would like to finish it: I now close my fu@#$@!% eyes when I play (sax)and it helps a lot the heart to forget the head while fingers hit the good keys in a sort of magic way. Giant steps we would say in some other place. No obsequious meaning in it, as it is something we all perceive when we watch musicians, and is rather hard to apply if we're not one of them. I'm afraid I'm no as clear as what Robert wrote.. That's reason why I posted the whole "Road to Graceland" tribute to the jazz-l list with no permission from him or moderator Hope they'll both forgive me, but I could'nt stand keeping it secret. It can be - as for I - a pretty Christmas gift from Mister Fripp to any involved list'er. Apologizing much much much. MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmerry ChristmassssssssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSs eVeryBody Didier((say:Didya)(getany)(onya onya onya)(hooooo onya))Boclet FrOgLaNd [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1993 15:11:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Ray Ashley Subject: Beat The theme behind my favorite KC album, _Beat_, recently revealed itself to me as I was reading a collection of Beat writings. I'm sure that this is obvious to most of you, but if not, here is a summary of the correlation I have made: Neal & Jack & Me: Neal cassidy, Jack Kerouac, in Kerouac's novel "On the Road" Sartori In Tangiers: William Burroughs spent a lot of time in Tangiers, because of the easy availability of narcotics. Paul Bowles, although perhaps not a 'Beat' also lives there. He wrote "The Sheltering Sky" The Howler: obviously, Allen Ginsberg Neurotica: was the name of the first literary magazine to publish Beat writings in NYC from 1948 until its demise in 1951 That still leaves "Heart Beat", "Waiting Man", "Two Hands" and "Requiem" open to speculation, although I doubt that "Heart Beat" was inspired by the Beat generation. Also, does anyone know what the word "Sartori" means? Ray Ashley [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 30 Dec 93 12:53:17 CST From: Bill Moxim Subject: Crimson on laserdisc! Hi there! I just started reading this list and I *really* enjoy it! The latest issue available to me is #115 (11/12/93), so this might have been brought up already. In the 12/10/93 issue of Goldmine magazine I noticed an ad for import laserdiscs. My eyes popped out as I glanced over "Three Of A Perfect Pair" for $41.60 and yet another gem, "Robert Fripp: Careful With That Axe (guitar hero series, vol.2)" for $54.60!! I have been searching for the Crimson video for many many years now and first heard of it being on laserdisc about two years ago. I have been told it is long out of print (as are the videos) and copyright problems between Japan and the US (as it is Japanese-only) have made the disc extremely scarce... Needless to say, I bought both instantly. Both are fantastic. I had a bootleg copy of the Crimson video, but the laserdisc is simply beautiful! The Fripp disc is fabulous. It includes a brief history of King Crimson (complete with archive video clips!) - a thorough interview with Bob throughout the disc (with Japanese subtitles) and numerous pieces and instruction with one of his Crafties classes. GET THIS. Even if you don't own an LD player GET IT. Find someone who does and make a copy. Here is where I found it: THE LASER EXCHANGE 444-B Broadway Suite #275 Saugus, MA 01906-1995 (USA) - or phone (617) 231-8010 - or fax (617) 233-9852 Now only to find "The Noise - Frejus '82". My copy is dying and in mono. Release it on laserdisc!!! Cheers! - Bill [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: mathias at tarkus dot ocis dot temple dot edu (mathias thallmayer) Subject: Eddie Jobson scores TV show. Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 3:48:30 EST There is a new TV show called "Viper". It is a very cliche program along the lines of "Streethawk/"Knight Rider"/"Airwolf". The interesting part is that the music score of the 2-hour premiere was done by Eddie Jobson! Unfortunately, the score was not very memorable on its own and served merely to underscore the on-screen events. Some may say that this is the preferable course. But I believe that soundtrack music should add to the viewing experience while being enjoyable indepen- dently and not just be audio wallpaper. Hopefully, this was not Jobson's decision. -- Mathias (mathias at tarkus dot ocis dot temple dot edu) BTW, it is nice to know that he is still making music! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 16:03:40 -0800 From: David A. Craig Subject: ELP schizoid man i have read that the new ELP box set contains a 1993 recording of schizoid man. how is it? who are the participants (merely 1993 ELP members? yikes ...)? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) Subject: Darshan mini-album? Was it released? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 11:22:06 EST Did the Sylvian/Fripp Darshan mini-album ever get released in the UK? [ Yes it did. I have a copy and can supply details. -- Toby ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ aNiL pRaSaD wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 18:29:16 +0100 From: Eric Rutten Subject: Re: Sylvian & Fripp (Darshan Mini-album - is it out?) - alt.music.progressive #16784 I haven't seen much discussion about it by now here, so I forward this, which I put on the news recently In article <2ge3d0$oa2 at irisa dot irisa dot fr>, rutten at irisa dot fr (Eric Rutten) writes: |> In article <2gdhlv$2v6 at genesis dot Mcs dot Com>, mudflap at MCS dot COM (Carolyn Faber) writes: |> |> : > Any comment on the David Sylvian |> |> : > and Robert Fripp's LP "Darshan" ? |> |> : > |> |> : >Thanks in advance, Olivier. |> |> |> |> : Is this actually available now? I've had a friend in the UK scour |> |> : several stores with no luck. |> |> |> |> Yeah. I saw it (here in Chicago) back in Aug. as a UK import and then it was |> |> it is available in Europe for some weeks now. |> |> I like fine because I also like some ambient-house stuff: the mini album is |> made of two remixes of Darshan (one by the Grid, one by the Future Sound of |> London) in that style, meaning a sometimes heavy dance rhythm, little noises |> all over, various samples, etc ... and even, in the Future Sound |> "reconstruction", excerpts from Fripp's 1979 "Under Heavy Manners" (yes!) |> in the background. The third track of the mini-album is just the album-version |> of Darshan (which is redundant and useless on the mini-album, but c'est la vie) |> |> Eric |> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eric Rutten | room: 221 IRISA / INRIA | phone: +33 99 84 72 33 Campus de Beaulieu | fax: +33 99 99 38 F-35042 RENNES CEDEX - FRANCE | e-mail: rutten at irisa dot fr ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 17:32:53 PST From: rosenblu at UCSD dot EDU Subject: Oh, yes, it's about Fripp again Hello Toby, thank you for including me in your list of fripperzoids, I have something to reply to all these fellows talking and defending some of Mr. Fripp's "bad manners". I had the unnamable fortune of seeing Mr. Fripp at the Belly Up in Solana Beach, California, somewhere in early 1993. It was a CGT/Fripp/Gunn (the order doesn't indicate anything) show. I was in an extatic state (I would have liked a couple less Frippertronics pieces, though) and thought about Frippo as God and those funny words people use to designate him. When the show ended (and after purchasing the mandatory promotional video and T-shirt) I went to try to get the sacred autograph, which in the end turned to be harder to get than the holy Grial !!!!! Of course, Mr. Fripp (Or "God", whatever sounds better to my buddies), had disappeared long time ago and was probably meditating or levitating in his sacred bubble. (I have to say that when I tried to approach him before he left, he graciously rejected me and made a subtle, funny sign to the security guard, something hard to describe here). Anyways, after those incidents I managed to give my "In the Court..." album to the same guard that had politely stopped me before and I explained him the reason, the sacred purpose of my (very normal and fanatic) behaviour. I come from Lima (Peru), that little and forgotten - but not for that less beautyful- country in the middle of western southamerica. There is, believe it or not, a big audience for prog-rock, and of course, KC is always in the top five of any discussion. We (peruvians) haven't been very lucky with the visiting of our idols to our country until a couple of years, when suddenly everybody started to go to Peru: Jon Anderson, Jethro Tull, Rick Wakeman (Who is an extraordinarily warm and nice person and whom I had the pleasure to act like a host for , in Peru, of course). You can understand my excitement when I saw Fripp (His was the first prog concert I had ever been in!!!!!) It is not my intention (at all) to write this and send it to your great bulletin just to criticize Mr. Fripp, I am still a big fan of him and I admire his incredible musicianship and unique style. I have to say, though, that the discomfort I felt after the show due to his strange (to say the least) behaviour, even having gotten the (in)famous rubric, was at least the size of my admiration for him. Look, I make music too, I play flute and sing, and I know about beeing INTO the music when you play, but It is hard for me to understand "godly attitudes" after the show is over. He could, at least, have showed some education. Aren,t Gods supposed to be examples for humans ? I'm afraid I can't feel admiration for his person anymore, How could I ??? Couldn't he be a bit more HUMAN ?????? Thank You for your attention (and sorry for my poor English). PD. To Paolo Valladolid : I was sitting next to you in that concert, Remember ? --------------------------- Alan Rosenblum rosenblu at bend dot ucsd dot edu UCSD School of Architecture [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 14:09:35 -0800 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: Re: Fripp This was some email dialogue I thought might be of general interest - I've posted my reply to Steven's mail and left most of his mail to me intact, edited/reposted here with his permission. (BTW, can anyone document any stories of actual brush-off's by Fripp, or am I just imagining that I've heard a number of such stories over the years?) >From: Steven_L dot _Bender at gorgias dot ilt dot tc dot columbia dot edu > Are there really many stories of "brush-offs"? I'm a bit surprised (and > saddened) to hear this-- as I said, I always found his civility and > interest quite impressive. Sure, I've heard a few. Offhand though the only ones that come to mind are someone on the Discipline list who said Fripp just kept walking by him, totally ignoring him as the guy was trying to talk to Fripp. Of course, that could have been under circumstances where Fripp was walking down the aisle at a crafties show, but I think it was somewhere totally outside a music venue. I know someone who got cold shouldered and lectured on interviewing by Fripp as he tried to conduct an interview Fripp's manager supposedly had arranged. Fripp declined to talk to him and lectured him on politeness when he persisted. I don't know, I am sure I have heard a number of such stories. On the other hand, I've had some eye contact with him at shows before myself... Oh, one other guy I know was caught with a reel to reel at that Central Park show and Fripp made him promise not to do anything to the tape. Not really a brush-off though. Perhaps it's been exaggerated, but given Fripp's tenmperment I believe it possible. Sounds like you've been lucky enough to catch his attention by looking memorable or attracting his interest via your wife's hat. I'm sure he can be a nice guy. I've heard him in interviews and heard stories where he was less than pleasant though, and overall I find his tone a bit pretentious and snotty though I respect his music much. The more I hear him talk though sometimes I think the less I like his ideas or his attitudes. His approach of discipline in music is in some ways almost the opposite of my approach to improvising and not aspiring for anything but the moments I find magic in myself, seemingly by accident. I don't want to be a music craftsperson, I want to occasionally play and compose music and talk to a muse inside me - not something I can turn on or off at will or replicate easily. > Don't you find it weird that someone so opposed to bootlegging would > release a live album like "Earthbound". As Fripp changed his mind on the > subject since he has released the live three cd Crimson set (have you heard > anything about the status of the other two sets that were to follow?) and > the live disc from the four CD set? As I see it, Earthbound and USA were probably both done because of record company or management obligation and not necessarily because Fripp ever wanted them out. E-Bound came right after the band fell totally apart and may have been intended to cash in on whatever marketability was left before Fripp made a comeback with 72-74 Crimson. USA, likewise, came right after a disbanding and probably filled some demand for product. I've heard nothing about the other two live boxes Fripp mentioned. I see Fripp's changing his mind on releasing live recordings as a reflection of his inability to control or stop the boots, not as a change in his desire to release live material. Faced with an obvious demand and a collectors market willing to pay big bucks for boots, plus seeing Zappa's Beat the Boots series was probably what sparked him to raid the archives. That, and the cash it brings in while he reforms Crimson and works odd jobs. Look at where he first announced the box sets of live material - in Goldmine, a mag that speaks directly to the collectors and boot audiences. His statements included comments that I took to be jabs at the collectors too - saying he thought it would be interesting to release a cd of only versions of 21st Century Schizoid Man over the years - which I took as a joke but also a poke at the collectors who would eat up live material but probably hate such a package. As it is, the 72-74 live box has a lot of redundancy... Anyway, I look at it more as Fripp being driven by the marketplace to fill a need others would profit off of if he didn't. Since it resulted in the much rumored but largely undocumented improvisational skills of the 72-74 lineup finally getting legitimately documented I think it's a good thing. But where is Jamie Muir and the supposed total improv group of 1972? I've heard one boot, lousy quality, that covers hints of material that they mined for new songs over the next two years after Muir left. I'm inclined to think he really sparked something that is still undocumented except on Lark's Tongue. > Is the League of Gentlemen CD still in print? I wanted to buy it after > someone told me it's considerably different from the album (is it?), but I > haven't seen it lately. I don't know. I think it was released on cd as God Save the King, mixing most of the tracks from LoG with some of the material from God Save the King. The vocal material from LoG was left off. But see, what bugs me is that the whole tone of the pieces is different than the live band, which I think had a much more dissonant focus, at least at times. I would love to see Fripp release a live LoG cd. - malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: %BURLINGTON%CSICUS dot compuserve dot com at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: 06 Jan 94 19:07:30 EST Subject: Discipline Submission An entry regarding items of interest to KC enthusiasts -- re: UK, the band Some news items of peripheral interest related to KC are submitted here... I'm wondering if anyone is aware that--according to violinist/keyboardist Eddie Jobson (who did some overdubs on 'USA') UK was to be a KC reunion in 1977--but Fripp would only participate if they named it 'League of Gentlemen.' Jobson told me in an interview Fripp backed out 'at the last minute' and Bruford convinced Jobson and Wetton to add guitarist Allan Holdsworth--though at first Jobson intended UK to be a trio after Fripp backed out. I haven't heard anything about Jobson's musical activities for several years, however Bruford and Holdsworth were seriously discussing a joint project, and Polygram was interested--but apparently failed to come up with enough money to make it feasible. Holdsworth's new album 'Hard Hat Area' is finished and due out in the U.S. by March--it's already out in Europe. Any AH enthusiasts are advised to contact me via mail: C. Hoard 1320 E. 36th St. Long Beach CA USA 90807 I'm considering publishing a bi-annual newsletter for Holdsworth/Bruford fans. I did speak to BB while writing a drummer feature for JAZZIZ two years ago during his reunion tour with Yes--he was making no secret of his feuding with Fripp--his major complaint was having zero input on what previously unreleased live material was included in the Frame and Deceiver box sets. I don't know if the quarreling was resolved, but the Creem excerpt quoted by P. Cole in Disc#120 was interesting--and I think very likely inaccurate. Why would Fripp be unable to work with him until he's left EG? I thought BB still was still with EG--perhaps there was a disagreement--but I'd rather not speculate. What seems apparent in some of the Discipline comments is curiosity about whether the '74 and '80 versions were indeed collectives--this reporter's observation: Yes, but only in the present tense. That is, Fripp led a collective effort while these bands performed--but when it comes to the stewardship of live material and past studio recordings, somewhat to Bruford's annoyance, KC is solely, exclusively the province of Fripp. Speaking of newsletters--has anyone published an official one on KC? Of possible interest to you folks may be the Occasional Gentle Giant newletter. It is published in Norway, and is going strong now since early '92 (four issues out thus far)... and I'll be happy to provide subscription info if sent a self-addressed stamped envelope at the above address. Apparently it's more than a confirmed rumour that GG keyboardist Kerry Minnear is seeking a budget to record a new Gentle Giant project with some of the original members. If there's any interest out there--please contact me via mail--not Internet--as I'm only submitting this via a test system, and do not as of yet have a permanent, private address on the Internet. Brief messages can be sent to me via %burlington at csicus dot compuserve dot com *** *** In the first line of text, however, to access my company E-Mail box the entry s=clh1 must be used (as the sole entry on message text line 1). P.S. -- I have a friend fellow journalist who reviewed the '74 show at the Shine Auditorium in L.A. in response to another entry--and will see if I can get a few paragraphs from him to submit -- for those interested in an eyewitness account of the '73-74 quartet--he still loves to talk about it! --Christopher Hoard [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: mbergen at mac dot cc dot macalstr dot edu (The Ol' Hwang-ho) Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive Subject: The Talking Drum- A Jamie Muir Intrvw Date: 10 Jan 94 07:04:34 GMT Organization: Macalester College Under the Terrascope's ever-widening lens, one fascinating field of music yet to be covered is that of the avant-garde percussive imporovisationalist. Who better to talk to than former King Crimson member and one of its foremost Britishexponents JAMIE MUIR, who our correspondent David Teledu recently tracked down for a suitably broad question and answer session: PT: When did you first get involved in music? JM: I was brought up in Edinburgh. I started piano lessons, rather ineptly, at a school in Fife. Then I went to another school where I started French horn; I got fed up with it after a while, there was an extremely limited repertoire and I found it quite boring as an instrument. I then became interested in jazz and played trombone. I added string bass to that until my budding bass career ended when the thing fell five stories down a stairwell in Edinburgh. I went to art college and started playing in a band - at first it was trad. jacc and then it became more modern. After a while I couldn't take any more of that - I was interested in improvisation and being in the wilds of uncertainty. Playing in keys with five sharps and so-on seemed like intellectual masochism, getting in the way of the creative process. So I gave up trombone and started playing drums. I was a beginner again. I practiced hard and used to listen very closely to recordings of American jazz drummers such as Tony Williams and Kenny Clarke. After a while I realised that you've got to be yourself, with complete confidence and conviction; have confidence in your own source of creativity and husband that. I got back into playing with some of the same people as before, this time on drums. It seemed just the same - the bandleader calling some insanely fast tempo and so-on. I decided that the music was a dead duck and stopped playing it. I can remember hearing records of musicians like Pharoah Sanders, the New York Art Quartet and Albert Ayler on the ESP label. Albert Ayler was an extraordinary musician. Another musician I admired was the American percussionist Milford Graves. I also used to listen to a lot of ethnic music in the Sixties. That was it; I just had to improvise. The first time it felt really dangerous, like the sort of thing you had to lock the doors and close the curtains on because if anybody saw you, God would strike you down with a thunderbolt. But I took to it like a duck to water. I started working with a trumpet player and then we added an altoist and did quite a lot of work together, calling ourselves The Assassination Attempt. This was in the early Sixties in Edinburgh. We had about sixteen people at one point, including a poet and a couple of dancers. I once went down to London to check out the lightshows that were just starting at the Roundhouse, and developed one of my own for the group. PT: Towards the end of the Sixties you became involved in entirely improvised music and joined Music Improvisation Company? JM: At the art college in Edinburgh someone arranged for some London groups to come up and play. I was in a supporting band, with Bernie Green I think. Derek Bailey was one of the visiting musicians. He seemed to like my playing and asked me to come down to London. At the same time I'd become acquainted with a musician who was part of a visiting London act at the Edinburgh Festival. He asked me to sit in and play with them, which I did. The leader turned out to be Lindsay Kemp, who asked me to come down to London where they'd lined up a residency for a week. So myself and Bernie Green went. I don't think we ever got paid, but that was okay because Kemp was very enthusiastic and entertaining. He still is a very flamboyant character. This was around 1965-66. Then I got in touch with Derek Bailey. John Stevens was one of the people who'd started the Little Theatre Club in London, a tiny place off St. Martins Lane. Some great music happened there in the beginning. Derek sort of split >from him and went with myself and Evan Parker - we started M.I.C. as a trio, later adding Hugh Davies. PT: And there are two albums documenting that group? JM: The recording we did for ECM was when the label had just started. I don't think they'd formulated a musical policy then; obviously they have subsequently and it's quite homogenised and new-agey, silky and satiny. Some of it's good but the lumps and grime get sieved out. But back then it was a new label and improvised music was good at that time. It was really a record that had some of the spirit of the time - urgency, vitality, a sense of direction. The Incus album? I haven't heard any M.I.C. for a long time - that label is Derek's thing. He liked a painting that I'd done in the early Seventies and asked me if he could use it for a record sleeve. That's the one on the '68-71' cover. The painting has no title. PT: After several years, M.I.C. disbanded and you got involved in Boris (once described as "controlled ugliness which subliminates itself into a weird beauty")? JM: Whilst still a member of M.I.C. I'd become interested in exploring other areas such as rock music. Improvised music seemed to have its limitations - it was fine for intricacy and detail, but from a distance it often tended to be the same shape. Before Boris I'd played in Pete Brown's Battered Ornaments who'd been up at the Edinburgh Festival. I was quite mystified at first, playing rock. There were some good players in that band, quite well-known r&b musicians. Boris was really a very good group. The main man was Jamie Peters who played bass. He'd played with Georgie Fame and Dusty Springfield. I met him completely by chance and we got together to play some pretty wild improvised music. Then there was a guitarist, Jim Roache (ex-Collosseum) and a tenor saxophonist, Don Weller, both of whom had been in Major Surgery. And myself on drums. Boris just collapsed through lack of work really. It was a good live band playing improvised music with lots of lunacy. We did do a demo: some American film company had a project to make a film about the rise of a rock band from nothing to stardom and had been all over Europe interviewing groups. They came across us and decided that we were the ones; took us out for a fancy meal and we did a demo for them. It was a very rushed job, we only had about four hours. Anyway, it fell through because they ran out of money. That was when I learned not to waste your time getting your hopes up or to believe something until it actually happens. We broke up for various reasons, but it was a good band. Jim and Don produced some magical music. PT: After Boris split up in late 1970 you were a member of the Afro-rock band Assagai for a while? JM: That was pretty awful! The leader of Assagai had been in Osibisa. He was kind of strange... there were all sorts of weird hassles and mind games. It was a nightmare, actually. PT: And then you went on to form the provisionally titled 'Sunship' which included Alan Gowen and Allan Holdsworth? JM: Alan Gowen was the keyboard player in Assagai actually, that's how I met him. He was a really nice guy and a good keyboard player. There wasn't much work around at the time, I think I found a bit in Germany or something, but we played together and somehow the bassist Laurie Baker got involved as well - I can't remember exactly how Allan Holdsworth had just come down from the North where he'd been doing commercial work. We had a rehearsal group in my house. I remember, that was the year of the electricity strikes. Laurie's wife would be making great vegetarian concoctions in the kitchen downstairs by candlelight, while we'd be upstairs rehearsing. Allan had come down wanting to do some sort of crucial music and I'd been involved in so-called Art Music and wanted to explore other areas - we were approaching it in some quite tongue-in-cheek ways and we had a lot of fun - we spent more time laughing than playing music. Laurie Baker was very much into art music on the intellectual side but in the right mood he could play some monstrous bass. PT: And in the summer of 1972 you got the offer to join King Crimson? JM: Robert Fripp was looking for a new band and I got a 'phone call from him. I think it was Richard Williams from Melody Maker who suggested me to him. I was rehearsing with Alan Gowen and others at the time. They were rather upset with me for leaving, actually... King Crimson were the only really famous band I'd been in. Fripp was open and believed very much in getting disparate musical elements together, a mixture to produce interesting music, although this was difficult to hold together as the history of King Crimson would suggest. When we rehearsed, we thrashed about and tried to make things work in an improvisational way in the studio. Fripp was definitely the boss, there's no question about it. And that was fine, he seemed to me to be a very good band leader. I think I was a wee bit too much for him, simply because I was so involved in imporovisation. He was very much concerned with logic and function, he always worked his solos out before playing them. He had very fastidious and tight sort of habits. We did a tour and recorded the "Larks' Tongues in Aspic" album. It was very difficult to get that sort of improvisation on record. We were interested in group potential and creating monstrous power in music. Where I started playing drums on the album should have been a lot wilder - sheets of tin rattling and ripping, piles of crockery breaking, those sorts of sounds. One or two things that Robert would have found just too much. For a person like him it was a very admirable creative decision to actually work with somebody like me. Touring with King Crimson wasn't a lot of fun for me. I had a lot of equipment, and when I was in improvised music I'd set it up myself, play the gig, and put it all away again. With King Crimson the drum roadie would start to complain bitterly and get shirty because of the problems of setting it up and putting it back down again. We had difficulty getting together a road team that was any good. Another major thing I remember was trying to get the percussion audible at rock concerts, because percussion was not miked up by direct injection. I've seen this at so many gigs and it can be really sould destroying. Bill Bruford and I got on very well together musically it seemed to me. He was a solid, tight, thinking studio type and I was very much into doing imaginative odd things. PT: After a second British tour in early 1973 you left the group. Why was this? JM: The reasons why I left were to do with my interest in Buddhism. There were experiences over a period of about six months which caused me to decide to give up music, so one morning I felt I had to go to E.G. management and tell them. It was difficult of course, a whole year of tours had just been lined up. I cleared my house and went up to a Tibetan monastry in Scotland, became a monk and took the robes. I didn't feel too happy about letting people down, but this was something I had to do or else it would have been a source of deep regret for the rest of my life. I did a lot of meditating - which is more active than some people seem to think - and spent a lot of time in retreat. PT: Robert Fripp had apparently been involved in Wicca during the early 1970's, and subsequently in the Gurdjieff mystical teachings. Do you have any opinions about that? JM: I only vaguely remember something about that. My attitude is that it's important that we should keep open to us any way of exploring the mind. I do also realise that there are some inhospitable, hostile and aggressive sects out there... my God, it's a dangerous world. If you really care about the human race you should try to find out what is wrong. So Wicca, Gurdjieff, Buddhism are all good. Let's see as many good people as possible going into it and exploring these things. PT: After a number of years away from performing and recording music you seemed to appear again in free music settings? JM: Around 1980 I returned to London. Coming out of a retreat, it was quite a shock. Derek Bailey dragged me back into group improvised music. I didn't really want to get involved, but he was going through a slightly difficult patch and wanted a friendly face from the past. I eventually relented. It was all pretty unenjoyable actually, apart from a few gigs with Evan Parker and Barry Guy who's a very good bassist, and perhaps one Company tour. Improvised music seemed to have lost its vitality and a lot of the musicians seemed to be using it for their careers and posturing and posing. I think group improvised music is one of the great forms of 20th Century music because it's so radical. It should be listened to live and not in an acute intellectual way. A lot of other music is quite absurdly intellectual. PT: I heard a reference to your having been involved in a soundtrack with Michael Giles, King Crimson's first drummer? JM: After a few rather dreary gigs with Derek I tried to get a few projects together, but nothing really came of it. In the early Eighties people seemed to be into doing their own thing and were not prepared to commit themselves to other people. So I developed a sort of pre-production type studio at home. Basically, I got involved in multi-tracking. It wasn't a natural thing for me. I bought a sequencer, did some sampling and one or two other bits and pieces. Mike Giles, David Cunningham and myself did the music for a film called 'Ghost Dance'. I also did the music for a sculpture film, one or two video pieces and a film called 'E.E.T.C.' I felt frustrated and distracted by the requirements of technology, they seemed to get in the way of the creative process. I did remain nterested in the computer 16-track sequencer since once you learn the mechanics of it you can work very quickly. I was bored with the avant-garde and arts side of music really. I got into dance music and explored pure melody and rhythm. I've got disks full of music that never got anywhere; when I looked out into the music world in the early Eighties it just seemed like a pit of snakes. Very aggressive, strident (party-oriented) politics seemed to have seeped into the arts in general. I think it's still true to some extent. From my own experience I'd say that musicians get treated badly by the film industry and paid even worse. They get treated marginally; you're not part of the real process. PT: Can you say something about your appearances in the Eighties? You were on a radio session with Evan Parker broadcast on BBC Radio 3, did some record sleeve designs and were on albums by Company and in a duo with Derek Bailey. JM: Evan Parker asked me to do the radio session. The Quiet Violence album 'Requiem' (on the Impetus label) was recorded at my studio and I did the sleeve design. A Japanese musician friend of mine, his mother had just died and he wanted to make a record to commemorate her death. He got completely ripped off by the company in England. It was a very shameful piece of behaviour, really tacky small-time conning, the sort of thing you expect in the bag hard commercial world but not in the avant-garde. I felt very badly for the guy but there wasn't much I could do about it. I designed three or four sleeves for Incus and one for John Russell's album 'Conceits' (on the Acta label). The album I did with Derek Bailey at my studio was recorded on a pair of stereo microphones. The sleeve was a bit of a disaster - the colour came out all wrong! The Company thing I really don't remember now. PT: Do you still have your percussive equipment? JM: I've got rid of nearly all of it. I sold a lot to get some money together to go to the States in 1989. I kept the sequencer and a few basic bits so that I could write music, but I don't do so. Throughout the Eighties I'd been swinging back and forth between painting and music. I don't play any music these days, I stopped about two years ago. I paint all the time now. I just work in the studio day and night, and live very reclusively. It's part of the territory of painting really. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Mark Bergen | Don't believe the spectacle of free. + + e-mail: mbergen at macalstr dot edu | No one ever let you see. -H. Cow + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Mr M P Hughes Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 01:48:39 GMT Subject: GGF guitar? GGF guitar? Sorry to be a bit of an equipment-head; was Fripp using a Les Paul on Cheerful Insanity? Seems to sound like one - and WHAT a sound! What amps was he using back then? Incidentally, the acoustic Jean the Birdman (Thanks, David) has been tempor- arily postponed; at the planned time, the hosts were understandably otherwise occupied - with delivering their new son Max. Congrats, Peter & Lynn! *** MIKEY: Michael Pycraft Hughes : MD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston TX *** ** Warning! New sig under construction! Hard hats to be worn at all times! ** [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 16:42:48 PST From: "John Relph" Subject: Possibilities I spoke to Mark Perry (Possible Productions) at great length (and I mean great) a few nights ago, mostly concerning Fripp and record collecting. He told me a few things, I thought you all might find them interesting... Apparently Robert Fripp plays on the songs "Brilliant Day" and "Lord of the Never Known" on Toyah's album "Ophelia's Shadow". Those two songs were originally Sunday All Over The World songs. Mark says that the Shy Limbs 7" single (with "Love") has a great Fripp part. As well as Bryan Ferry's "As The World Turns", Walter Steding's "Hound Dog" (Fripp playing rock and roll), and Camille's Little Secret's "Tantalizing" (credited as Bobby Willcox). If anybody has any further information about these singles, please send in now. There is also a single by Giles & Giles called "The Brain" which MAY have Robert on it. And a song by the band Spontaneous Combustion which was produced by Robert Fripp, the "Khatchaturian Sabre Dance". Or something like that. And if anybody has a video tape of the 1973 Midnight Special with King Crimson, please send in now! Apparently it is periodically rebroadcast (theoretically speaking) so it is possible someone has taped it. -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 10:21:33 +1000 From: keens at pitvax dot xx dot rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: i fall up the release of the eno vocal box (ii) with selections from my squelchy life confirms that robert fripp plays 'pin trumpet guitar' on the track i fall up (on the ali click cd). there are two other guitarists, greg arreguin plays 'evil wah guitar' and rob ahwai plays 'guitar' {how boring}. eno, by the way, plays 'bulgarian pain synthesizer' among other instruments. fripp completeists may be interested to know the box version is a shorter mix/edit to that on ali click. all the best to toby and friend (also into fripp?) jeremy [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: U001350 at HNYKUN11 dot URC dot KUN dot NL Subject: Re: Fripp? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 08:02:33 MET Organization: Universitair Centrum Informatievoorziening In article malcolm at wrs dot com (Malcolm Humes) writes: Hi Toby, This is from alt.fan.frank-zappa. Perhaps the readers of Discipline have an opinion on this as well. I'll have another listen to these albums. (And don't tell me you've already picked this up as well) Ciao, Jan. -------------------------- Original Message -------------------------- pepke at scri dot fsu dot edu (Eric Pepke) writes: >> > Frank his opinion of various musicians. When the interviewer asked about >> > Robert Fripp, Frank said "Never heard of him" and the interview moved on. >> > I laughed. ARF ARF ARF! >> >> When was that interview recorded? >Just before the release of the _Man from Utopia_ album, which puts it in >the mid-80's. interesting. I wonder if Fripp and Frank ever crossed paths. Obviously Fripp by mid-80's would know that Belew was working with Fripp and might have been likely to have heard 80's King Crimson. I've said this before - I'm convinced that "replublicans" off the Guitar 2-cd set is a poke at King Crimson of the 80's texturally. I can't say why fer sure, but having seen the 80's KC tour for their 3rd lp a month or two before seeing/hearing Zappa do that solo at the Tower in Philly, it was *obvious* to me that it was a poke at KC's sound. Have a listen. Other folks have also suggested previously that some of Sleep Dirt sounds like it may be Fripp influenced or aware... - Malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 14:12:44 -0600 (CST) From: 26H3KESSLERR at vms dot csd dot mu dot edu Subject: Discipline/Guitar open letter to Fripp I think whoever wrote the open letter to Fripp in the Jan. issue of Guitar had some major flaws. First of all, he feels by recruiting these old members that Fripp is reliving the 80's. What the author fails to notice is that these veterans have evolved and changed musically in the last 10 years. Also, Fripp does plan on using some modern "90's" musical themes in the new Crimson, namely grunge and Living Colour-style power (something 70's Crimson helped them pioneer). I guess my point is that whatever Fripp tries to do with KC, it will be a product of the present times and need no t relive other times nor follow trends of recent years. The 80's crimson was indeed an excercise in minimalism, gamelon-styles, and polyrhythmic (especially not 4-beat) music. I feel that this is an area which can be further expanded on, and no doubt will be in the future KC, especially with the addition of a Chapstick player. Perhaps Gunn and Levin will have the complex interplay Fripp and Belew did with two guitars. The author of the letter fails to notice this too. Also, he sites "Beat" and "Three of a Perfect Pair" as contractural obligations only and merely rehashing "Discipline" themes. While they do indeed rehash some of the musical patterns and styles brought on with "Discipline" I think they also stand up on their own and are fully group excersises, especially in "Beat." "Three of a Perfect Pair" tends to be like the Beatles "White Album" in how it seems to have pieces which highlight and are dominated by a certain member. But with "Beat" songs like "Sartori" and "Requiem," truly explore new areas that "discipline" did not cover. I think other new areas could be explored, escpecially with another Stickman. I also think that they werre not explored by the breakup within the band which produced "Three of a Perfect Pair." Because they were no longer acting as a unified group, they made clearly different songs on that last release. It's time they regroup and see if they can chart new waters. ps. I do somewhat agree on the decision with Jerry Marotta. Obviously Bruford does seem like he will participate, but an equally "creative" drummer would be a good choice. But then again have you heard Jerry on Suzanne Vega's new album, especially the track "blood makes noise?" It may make you change your mind sorry I wrote so much, I just had to get it off me chest. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.