From toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Thu Jun 18 09:29:02 1992 Return-Path: Date: Sun, 27 Oct 91 17:45:18 GMT Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: discipline #12 discipline, Number 12 Sunday, 27 October 1991 Today's Topics: Crimson boots Re: Essential King Crimso Review Re: Dave Holland/King Crimson similarity smirking icon Re: discipline #11 KING CRIMSON BOX. SAVE YOUR MONEY. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 24 Oct 91 01:06:37 -0700 From: yockey at cory dot Berkeley dot edu (Steve Yockey) Subject: Crimson boots Hello all, Since we've been talking about Fripp Crimson bootlegs a bit, I thought I'd ask about some boots I've seen for sale. These are all on CD. I was wondering if anyone could comment on these and perhaps point out their LP counterparts. Anyway here goes: Label Title LLR89 Cat Food USA 73-74 LLR60 Return of Crimson King UK '69 CO138 The Great Receiver, pittsburg 75 (bad date there?) PY55 Exiles pittsburgh 74 CO120 Return of the Crimson King Frankfurt '73 MICRO6 Sleepless in Japan '84 (from the video) RFR1110 Germany 1973 RFR1030 Ansterdam 1973 (LP = Un Reve Sans Consequence?) SGRS20 Atlanta 73 & Pitts 75 MICRO7 Lost Island brighton '71 RAIDl6 3 of an unlike pair montreal '84 WOC46 Pandemonium FB111 Book of Saturday Ansterdam '74 (date correct?) WBR915 Mirrors LOB011 Cloudy Air And here's one I actually have: TWP206 & 207 Arlington, TX 1973 These 2 CDs are mastered from LPs. I think the LP boot was called Senabular or something close to that. The source LP wasn't in Mint condition either. (I guess I shouldn't expect much from a label called "The Welfare Pig".) Sound isn't great, but the performace is good. One annoying thing is the late fade in and early fade out on some songs. And another question: Is there a difference between Un Reve Sans Consequence and Un Reve Sans Consequence Speciale? I have heard the latter described as having the track Starless (from _Red_) while I have a tape of the former and it has no such track, which would make since since it's from Ansterdam '73, before _Red_. Anyway I'd like to hear anything about any bootlegs any of you might care to review for us. And while I don't have a lot of Crimson/Fripp bootlegs, I do have a few plus other prog rock like Gabriel, Genesis, and others, and I welcome any trades. Let me know if you'd like a list. One other fripp related bootleg I have: Slowburn Peter Gabriel Great Dane Records CD 78+ min. at the Roxy, LA 1977 This one features Fripp (hidden away and refered to as the shy Musty Dusty Rhodes) on guitar (obviously!). You can definitely tell its fripp back there, particularly on tracks like "Here Comes the Flood". And Tony Levin on bass. Practically Crimson! Great show. bye, steve yockey at cory dot berkeley dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 24 Oct 91 13:52:32 PDT From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Re: Essential King Crimso Review Brian Patrick Arnold send in his "Essential King Crimson: Review". > One important thing to note is that most of >the first three CDs contain "definitive edition" remixes--the exact same >mixes as found on the Definitive Edition King Crimson CDs available to >most since 1989. The notes to the box say that the masters are either Definitive Edition 1989 or Definitive Edition Enhanced 1991. > Cat Food sounds >even more energetic than before for some reason, with a slight remixing >of the guitar part. This version of Cat Food is the single version, the album version having been slightly remixed. > Adrian Belew replaces Gordon Haskell's vocals on >Cadence and Cascade, and Tony Levin replaces Gordon's bass on Bolero. Bolero sounds more jazzy than before. The mix sounds less muddled, each instrument having a much clearer place in the soundstage. I would have liked to have seen a remixed "Cirkus". Fripp's acoustic guitar on that track is killer. > I don't want to let the cat out of the bag regarding >The King Crimson Barber Shop, except that it is 1-1/2 mins of pure Tony >Levin and I'll leave the rest to your imagination (uh, "excuse me", it's >"Tony, Billy, Bobby and Belew"). Originally recorded in 1983. Reminds me of the barbershop song that Tony arranged for Peter Gabriel's nth album. >The Talking Drum and 21st Century Schizoid Man come next, from the >Amsterdam Concertgebow, Nov 1973. This Talking Drum fits very well >after Mars, and is quite devastatingly good (NB bogus track time). Many of the tracks on these CDs seem to have track times that do not correspond very well to the track times listed on the sleeve. All seem to be LONGER than the times listed. > A >different 21st Century Schizoid Man could have been used--it's good but >not as great as the USA live version. There is one pause where only Fripp is playing and then Bruford and Wetton kick back in that is Most Excellent. John's monstrous bass indeed. The live CD is in general Quite Good. Even if the performances aren't always the best, it gives a good impression of what one might have heard if one had been there. And there are some brilliant moments. > Mucho typos >but fun reading. I am very surprised at the number of typographical (and spelling) errors that made it into the booklet. Even "Fripp" is misspelled at one point (Frilpp?). > Some of the British music press continued their >Crimson-and-Fripp-bashing as well as providing demonstrations of >complete ignorance through the 80's. Quite amusing as well. Although some of the Fripp-bashing is well-deserved. He Can be an asshole at times, but it seems that one must be to survive in the rock arena. >Finally, there's the Family Tree sheet. It is a bit too complete, >making it appear busy and okay maybe some twenty-odd people have played >with the band, but this sheet makes it look as if several thousand >people participated in the band. I've seen sparser. But it does seem to represent a good history of the musicians involved, where they came from and where they went, which is almost as interesting as the genealogy of Crimso itself. >Well, do ya think it's worth 50ish bucks? > I think it is worth it, for listeners old and new alike. Agreed! I especially like the track selection for the 1971-4 CD (number two). It flows well, despite important sections of songs being left out. I am not generally an aficionado of live recordings, but I found the live CD to be very interesting. And the latter recordings are actually entertaining... Buy or die. -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: cjn at cbnewsf dot cb dot att dot com (curtis.j.newton) Subject: Re: Dave Holland/King Crimson similarity Date: 24 Oct 91 17:22:29 GMT In article <1991Oct23 dot 024629 dot 2091 at agate dot berkeley dot edu> joey at eden dot Berkeley dot EDU (Joe Hellerstein) writes: >Don't know if anybody is likely to own both of these albums, but I >just noticed a strange similarity between Dave Holland's "Walk-a-way" >(off the _Seeds of Time_ album, ECM 1985, recorded November 1984) and >King Crimson's "The Sheltering Sky" (off of _Discipline_, EG 1981.) > >Anybody agree with me as to the similarity of these two recordings? Care >to speculate on influences, composition dates, etc? I'm not suggesting >complete plagiarism, but they *are* similar tunes, both unusual. "Walk-a-way" is the Holland/Smith duet, right? My recollection is there is a similarity in the "clave" (to plagarize Bob Moses' favorite term) that accounts for much of what you might be hearing. It's just a very natural (and _common_) way to subdivide a 6/4 groove: __ _ _ 6 | | | | | | | (The "7" is an eighth rest) 4 _| _| _| 7 _| 7 _| _| _| This bears quite a few similarities to the afro-cuban "Nanango" clave ('scuze my spelling); just permute the above one beat later (start with two quarters) and you're pretty close. So, the similarity could be explained as the use of an idiomatic clave. As for the melody....hey, I'm just a drummer :-) Besides, I hate conspiracy theories.... Curt Newton AT&T Bell Labs cjn at cbnewsf dot att dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1991 12:34 EDT From: DAN Subject: smirking icon hey there, all... My first offering to this group will consist of... A FEW QUESTIONS!! first off - who is Joanna Walton?? secondly - who is Richard Palmer-James?? (by "who" - I mean what else have they done, how are they connected etc.) thanks - I hope to be able to write more soon. -dc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "One Law for the lion and Ox is Oppression" - bill blake -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1991 17:17:54 EDT From: Mark Crimson Friedman Subject: Re: discipline #11 Last issue Andrew Russ said: ]Indisciple Mining Rocks contains stuff from the 1981 Discipline tour... ]"The Sheltering Sky", "Red", "Larks Tongues In Aspic, Part Two", "Turkish ]Tea" (Not released), and an untitled piece that was one of the intrumentals ]from Beat (possibly "Sartori in Tangier"). One of these instrumentals is "The Howler" sans lyrics. That was fun to hear because I think they jammed a bit more since nothing else was going on... The other song is one that I haven't found on an other recording (and I'm sure it wasn't on Beat). Lots of guitar-synth on this one... - Mark +----====>>>))) Mark Friedman is friedman at cis dot ohio-state dot edu (((<<<====----+ | "There is nothing former | (Disclaimer : the opposite of Datclaimer) | | about King Crimson." | "I used to have a photgraphic memory | | - Robert Fripp, 5/11/90 | but it was never developed..." | > -.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----..-.---.----.. < [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Doug_G_Sulpy at cup dot portal dot com Subject: KING CRIMSON BOX. SAVE YOUR MONEY. Date: 26 Oct 91 02:03:13 GMT Anyone else out there feel cheated by this? I know >I< do. Here's why: 1. The booklet is nothing more than an updated version of the one issued with "A Young Person's Guide". While that's FINE, I could have done with some outside critical commentary rather than another 10 pages of Fripps "diary". 2. This box is obviously one of those dreary affairs kludged together by record companies to extract as many dollars as possible from fans -- that is, giving them 3 CDs full of stuff they no doubt have just to get one CD full of stuff they DON'T have. 3. THE 1969 LIVE TRACKS SOUND LIKE SHIT AND ARE TAKEN FROM A VINYL BOOTLEG!!! -- And that SLIME record company doesn't even warn you of this on the box! 4. Fripp's snotty "liner notes" about how THE ARTIST has had to spend to much money to fix up these tapes, first for the original CDs, then the definitive series, then this. For your information, Robert, WE FANS are spending quite a bit on it too. Maybe when we get the "ultra definitive remixed master series" in 1998 we can buy all the Crimson CDs AGAIN. Hey, Bob... ever think of teaming up with Paul McCartney? 5. Anyone see ANY reason to have stripped the vocal off of Cadence And Cascade and replaced it with Adrian Belew? Me neither. I'd love to read other comments on this. Anyone feel good about it? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this group or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The views expressed in discipline are those of the individual authors only.