Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1196 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1196 Thursday, 13 January 2005 Today's Topics: Happy New Year RE: 21 Century Schizoid doings NST Another reason for NST Re: lyrics 21st CSB members King Crimson for sale at Radio Rarities Re: Lyrics NST Touring ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send *all posts* to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com ** Posts intended for the newsletter should have a subject prefix of ETPOST ** Posts intended for an individual newsletter contributor should have a subject prefix of their ET 'Ticket Number', shown at ETxxxxx in their 'From:' line in the newsletter. 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If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:41:47 +0000 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: Happy New Year Happy New Year everyone, and welcome to the 15th year of Elephant Talk. I hope 2005 will be a good year for you all. Best wishes Toby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:41:47 +0000 From: neil ingram Subject: RE: 21 Century Schizoid doings Hi David from down under The Schizzie website is alive and well, as is the band. If you go to the site (http://www.21stcenturyschizoidband.com/) you can download a liver version of 21CSM recorded in New York, and find out about the plans for 2005. These include a 2CD live album. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:27:35 -0500 From: Rob Rushin Subject: NST For Mr. Ormond - The pros and cons of NST v. OST...this is really an endless, circular argument. It comes down to a personal resonance and preference...similar, I think, to the "choice" we make when we decide to become a guitarist instead of a clarinetist, or whatever. It may simply speak to one's personal need. When I was shown NST 18.5 years ago, I walked away from OST on guitar and never looked back, save for a two week period in 1991 when I decided to try OST again. After 5 years, I found the sound of the tuning almost unbearable, most specifically the awkward -- and to my ears, dissonant -- imposition of the maj 3d. This proves nothing, of course...but I have come to find that, for my purposes, NST is markedly superior to OST. I use it for ambient looping, jazz, folk, rock and classical music. And I continue to enjoy and play with many fine musicians who use OST, DADGAD, slack key, etc. (On electric bass, I never made the switch to NST, though I tried several variations. The stretching was just too much, but I know of several Crafties who have made that switch. I'll note that the bass does not suffer the curse of the maj 3d in OST.) I was very happy to see your second post...the first post was confrontational, and many of the responses were in kind. Lots of heat ensued, plus a little light from a few fine correspondents. I composed a response myself, and then erased it as I felt it discourteously reactive. (I lack the generous grace of the correspondents Messrs. Snyder and Hughes, for example). But your second post revealed something more than mere antagonism. So I enter this exchange late, but in the spirit of goodwill. One specific rebuttal to your latest...I have a guitar student, a man with 25 years of OST experience. A Berklee grad, even one gold record hanging on his wall from his earlier touring days. He is exploring NST out of lively curiousity, and he took to it in just a few minutes. He still cannot replicate his familiar vocabulary, but why should he bother? He can do that in OST anytime he likes. This man is a musician, and as such, he found music in NST in no time. New music. Mr. Ormond, to me the striking aspect of your posts is the extremity of your statements -- comments like "I'd slash my wrists", "the guitar is all I have", and "I trust very little else". I do not know you at all, and I apologize if any of this is out of line -- but the severity of this language gives the impression of someone whose attachment to a specific and unvariant approach to the instrument may be an obstacle to a satisfying relationship with music. Your love is proclaimed for "the guitar", and the threat you perceive from NST seems to have shaken your faith in that love. Why is NST such a threat to your worldview? If NST is not for you...well, hey, walk on by, no harm no foul. Is D-A-D-G-A-D a similar threat? Perhaps your sense of upset in this stems from a hidden thought that you'd rather not have...perhaps you wonder if you've made the right choices, whether your faith has been misplaced. This crisis of faith is common for all people, and especially for artists. Is NST a pesky gnat, or a stiff wind threatening a house of cards? Guitar Craft offers an opportunity to engage that thought. Perhaps a week with NST and Guitar Craft would jolt you out of twenty years of habitual thinking. You might (like many others before you) attend only one course and return to OST with a new way of working. Or you may find yourself affirmed in your original faith, happier for the confirmation that all is well with your artistic world. Either way, you're a winner. Or you may discover, like some others have, that everything that you thought was a dead solid certainty may in fact be wisps of smoke. That a rigid declaration of "it must be this way why would anyone even dream of changing something that I've invested so much into" is in fact not serving the ultimate aim of bringing music into the world. (If that's your aim. How could I know that?) In my view, Guitar Craft is not defined by NST. It is perhaps the most obvious visible feature, but Guitar Craft is far more than a choice of tuning. I suggest one can play NST without studying Guitar Craft, and can practice Guitar Craft principles using any tuning (really, it is not even strictly limited to Guitar, as the gaggle of Stick-style players will attest). So, a useful question for yourself, Mr. Ormond....what's really bothering you? Best wishes for a musical New Year, Rob Rushin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:25:29 -0800 From: David&Pamela Subject: Another reason for NST I think that one of the attractions for NST in the case of artists like Fripp is that it warps the standard rock vernacular; the accustomed 'easy' clich E9s of blues-powered rock music, if used, have to be used consciously. A few years ago, when Fripp opened for G3 (not the recent tour, when he was one of G3), he joined Satriani, Vai, Kenneally, and whoever else (I've forgotten) on stage for a jam at the end. In the handing around of solos, Fripp's were quite unique, and I don't think this is simply because he is innovative (Vai and Kenneally are also stunningly innovative on occasion). I think it's because under the pressure of a public jam--when they let their fingers do the walking--rock guitarists reach for the familiar. But the 'familiar' in NST is laid out in an odd fashion. Other artists with a high degree of technical virtuosity have disrupted their skills in similar fashions. Max Ernst, the surrealist painter, went to great lengths to bump his ingrained techniques out of their groove by laying down his preliminary sketches in ways where he had no technical competency--painting with his left hand, or laying down the outlines by dripping paint from a nailhole in a paint can suspended from a rope. I think that some of what attracted Mr. Fripp to the concept of NST was simply the opportunity (a forced, chosen opportunity) to rethink the instrument. Obviously this is not something everyone would want to do. I wouldn't suggest reversing a right-handed guitar and playing it as a lefty, either--but I'm glad Hendrix did so, and I think that some of his musical innovation was a result of attacking the problem from a new angle. Gary Ormond's viewpoints are completely valid, too. I'd say this about any art, from music to painting to fiction: What works, works. Best, 20 David Isaak ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:29:13 +0300 (MSK) From: Vladimir Kalnitsky Subject: Re: lyrics Welcome to "IndoorGames - The Russificated King Crimson" http://indoor-games.narod.ru . You'll find translated and original lyrics even from "Happy..." EP. Be happy in the year 2005, Vlad Kalnitsky indoor-games at narod dot ru ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:14:21 -0800 (PST) From: PEDRO CAMPILLO Subject: 21st CSB members Hi Crimsoids, Unfortunately the 21st Century Schizoid Band is not going to continue active for the time being. We never now about the future. Ian Wallace is playing his awesome drums in the Kodak Theater, L.A, on musical about Moses, casted by Val Kilmer. The rest of the band is quite iddle. Best regards The Schizoid Winkler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:10:18 -0000 From: Keith Collyer Subject: King Crimson for sale at Radio Rarities Dave Moreman wrote about the "radio Rarities". They look liike KC Collectors' Club recordings to me. Cheers KeithC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:01:06 -0500 From: Mike Subject: Re: Lyrics If anyone is looking for any particular lyrics by King Crimson, a complete list of lyrics can be found on my site. Yeah I know, that's a shameless plug! Happy New Year, Peace, Love & Quality Footwear...Cheers, Mike http://community.webtv.net/thedukeofprunes/ALLTHINGSCRIM/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:16:43 -0500 From: Glenn H Subject: NST Dear Gary, I'm curious why you seem so in-a-tizzy about the fact that some people might want to play in a different tuning than you. If you are so happy with OST, why does the thought of playing in another tuning seem to cause you such vexation? I was stuck in a deep rut in OST. I'm happy in NST. I'm challenged and engaged. Different strokes for different folks. If you have no interest in beginning again, then don't. Taking your self estimation as accurate, and not the inflated musings of in egomaniac, it sounds like you are quite an accomplished musician. My hats off to you. I acknowledge that my answers to your question were insufficient. It's just one of those things. Why would anyone want to go to Paris? They speak a different language. The food is weird. There's dog poop in the streets. They don't like Americans. Some people will never make the effort to go, no matter how many travel brochures or videos they see. Once there, you might fall in love with the place. Or not. If you don't go, you'll never know. That's OK too. That being said: >I can assure you that chord forms and scale patterns migrate around an OST >neck very nicely. Well, not to my brain. I always was a little annoyed at having to adjust things to accommodate the Maj 3rd. Yes, of course, you can get used to it... but it's something I'm happy to be free of. >What do you mean [the 5th is more] fundamental? the 4th is simply an >inversion of the 5th and so what is difficult about it? In a couple of ways. From the music theoretical point of view... well, it's the circle of 5ths, not the circle of 4ths. Yes, they are inversions of each other... and that's why OST is upside down. You know... C-G just is a more rudimentary interval than C-F. Then, also, the 5th interval is more present in the harmonic series than the 4th. So, an instrument tuned in 5ths will have more sympathetic vibration between strings than one tuned in 4ths. But really, words fail me here. There is a particular flavor to an NST ensemble... I'm just guessing that it has something to do with the string resonance and so on. >Granted. but it also makes SMALL intervals harder. Ah... That's where the minor 3rd on top comes in handy. >I really resent this low-brow depiction of >traditional tuning as some lesser and more plebeian form of tuning that is >only good for pop songs and blues scale wankery. OST and NST are both good, universal, tunings. You can play almost anything in either. OST has the edge when it comes to the blues. NST has the edge when it comes to Askesis. Work on that resentment, it doesn't suit you. >WHY? Why does the guitar NEED to have such a radical rethink? NST was necessary for Guitar Craft, and some of us are crazy enough to believe that Guitar Craft is necessary in the world. You don't need to help us out, but, perhaps you can cheer us from the side-lines. Best wishes Glenn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:02:41 EST From: Jjvince1 Subject: Touring well reading fripps latest it seems that g3 was the last of his touring,he also made that statement after the european leg of tptb tour.Hopefully this is not the case i hope the kc fans get to see the new lineup in a live situation kc is a band that as old as the entity of king crimson is it is as potent today as it was in 1969 actually a helluva a lot better. I find the first recording no where near the genius of later recordings and itwop was just more of the same.My brother in law and my drummer as well was commenting over the holidays on the fact he put discipline in the cd player in the car on the way for the annual christmas dinner with the family, and how well it holds up against anything out today my god we will be listening to the power to believe very very loud in 2020 it is by far one of the best all time rock albums ever made .What i am eventually getting to robert is don't take bad hotel rooms and drug crazed fans wanting to rock out who boo soundscapes as what touring is all about. I know in my heart you knew exactly what you were up against you probably were booed during frippertronics im sure and that is some of the most inspiring work i have ever heard.Getting heckled by idiots is perfectly ok to a genius im sure. The soundscapes i have heard live and on record are cer tainly some of the most beautiful pieces i have ever heard and have inspired me to follow as well i have spent many a wonderful night with my gr 33 soundscaping and it has brought me full circle back to prog all i listen to now is kc recordings fripp and the Atmospheric Guitar Projekt (myself).......peace keep sounscaping and please tour the us again the last show at the pageant in saint louis was not enough even park west would be divine or maybe how about an electric version of guitar craft say working with the gr series there is a lot that could still be attained the future of music is in guitar synthesis ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1196 *********************************