Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1195 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1195 Tuesday, 21 December 2004 Today's Topics: Last ET of 2004, and Season's Greetings good evening hippies NST NST Re: Fripp & Schulze harmonics vs. overtones. And 5ths: perfect vs.well-tempered Re: Level 5 - what's in a name? Re: lyrics UNCrimson topic....VDGG 2005 reunion! NST 21 Century Schizoid doings Re: Downloads for dineros King Crimson for sale at Radio Rarities New Belew release the talking drum tabs The future of King Crimson ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send *all posts* to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com ** Posts intended for the newsletter should have a subject prefix of ETPOST ** Posts intended for an individual newsletter contributor should have a subject prefix of their ET 'Ticket Number', shown at ETxxxxx in their 'From:' line in the newsletter. To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 10:07:41 +0100 From: Toby Howard (ET moderator) Subject: Last ET of 2004, and Season's Greetings Hello everyone. This is the last ET of 2004, and I'd like to take this opportunity to wish you all Season's Greetings, and hope that 2005 is a good year for you all. The next ET will be out in early January 2005. Best wishes from me, and on behalf of the wonderful ET Team of Mike, Dan and Nadim. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 10:07:41 +0100 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: good evening hippies subjekt: "good evening hippies" good evening peter, it's (probably) me, the poster who used the fripp-salutation as the salutation of my postings - and needless to say, that you are right: >Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 10:48:01 -0500 >From: Peter Key >Subject: Good Evening Hippies >[snipp] >Additionally, although I don't have access to the poster's mind [thank god ;-) ], I doubt >very much that he meant to imply by his salutation that everyone who reads >E.T. is or was a hippie. He was simply repeating a greeting used Fripp >himself on one of the numerous concerts of the 73-74 band that have >been issued on CD. > >Peter Key that's it. if any contributor to ET wants to let out his or her bad manners, negativity, aggressiveness etc., he or she will do so - if the others invite him/her to do so or not, if we use funny, ironic salutations or not. my best regards roderich (earnest, bespectacled young man? long-haired, old-aged hippie? ;-) ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:58:42 -0800 From: Sandra Subject: NST The lowest pitch string (6) is a C. The highest string (1) is a G. CGDAEG, then, low pitch to high. While there are special sets made up for NST that are for sale, I know many players that simply buy different sets. A lot of NST players I know use Elixirs, for instance. Personally, I use the NSTrings (I believe these are D'Addarios). Same for picks. There are a few brittle Herdims left floating around - I love mine and have broken two of them- one while I was on tour with the League last spring, replaced by a very kind soul. Other players seem to be very happy with picks made out of Ultam, similar to the yellow picks made by Clayton. Some actually purchase these Clayton picks and cut them down into triangles. There are still others that use "regular picks". Even the guitars- while most Guitar Craft participants play Ovations, you will find the occasional Taylor or Martin (see the CGT), a Tacoma here or there, or even a custom guitar. As far as how the guitar "works" in NST, since it is the only tuning I know, the only guitar method I know, it works just fine for me. I have been playing almost four years, with only childhood guitar experience behind me. I know Guitar Craft players who use both NST and OST, fingerstyle and plectrum. There are principles to be gained from Guitar Craft which I believe can be applied to many styles of playing. Of course, if you've read the Monographs, then you also know that these principles can be applied to anything. Regarding being "kicked out" of Guitar Craft, please elucidate. What does being kicked out of Guitar Craft entail? Don't believe everything you hear or read. (I should say: don't believe ANYTHING you hear or read about Guitar Craft. Find out for yourself.) If you are really curious about NST and wish to see what Guitar Craft is all about, I strongly suggest you consider attending one of the two January Introduction to Guitar Craft courses. One is in New Jersey, the other is in Italy. The Introduction to Guitar Craft is an excellent way to learn about what Guitar Craft is. It is not too late to apply. More information on these courses can be found at http://www.guitarcraft.com/calendar.htm . Sandra Krimson News ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 09:01:52 +0000 From: Gary Ormond Subject: NST Dear All and Mr Fripp if you are reading this (as I know you did my previous post), Firstly let me apologize for the severe and dismissive tone of my previous post. I accept and realize that many of my statements were written from a position of comparative ignorance regarding NST but, in my defense, I can only say that my unease with this system does come from being completely unable to visualize ANYTHING on the fingerboard in it. I appreciate that there are many people who use this tuning to great satisfaction and I admire them or at least respect them, for taking the time needed to START OVER. This, sadly, is something that I feel I couldn't do on guitar. It has taken me almost twenty years to get where I am today which is really nowhere in the scheme of things, I am a part time guitar teacher and aspirant classical guitar recitalist with an appalling lack of concerts to show for my efforts, and if had to give up everything that I've ever known about guitar and start again I think I'd slash my wrists. I am saying the truth, the guitar is all I have in which I am any good and to lose that would be too painful to describe. If my views seem blinkered and narrow it is because they are. They have to be. I have to have something in this world to believe in and the trust. I trust very little else. I must just respond a little to Glen's post though. I feel we are kindred in our length of time playing but couldn't be more alien in our desires on the guitar. /"NST Advantages: 1) It requires a new beginning of the guitarist acquainted with the old tuning system."/ I COULD NOT start over (as I have already stated) and so I cannot possibly see this as and advantage. /"2) Has a larger, more 'orchestral' range, and therefore better suited to ensemble playing."/ This, I feel is dubious. Granted you get a slightly increased range on the instrument (a major 3rd below and minor 3rd above) but then, if increased range is your aim, use a 7, 8 or 10 string classical guitar. Additionally, there may be several ensembles that use NST to great effect but there are literally dozens more that play quite successfully in OST. The Assad bros, Hill/Wiltschinsky, Bream/Williams, Presti/Lagoya, the Amsterdam guitar trio, Pro Art=E9 guitar trio, etc, etc. None of these have ever found playing in traditional tuning difficult or limiting. /"3) Is more uniform. The minor third between the 1st and 2nd strings is less disruptive than the Major third between the 2nd and 3rd strings in the old tuning. This allows for easier relocation of chord forms and scale patterns. Uniformity helps in learning the fretboard."/ No it isn't. not if you are fluent with OST. the major 3rd is not disruptive as long as you know to compensate for it. I can assure you that chord forms and scale patterns migrate around an OST neck very nicely indeed, and this is one of the major points that I am always making to my students. Of course, uniformity helps when learning anything, but OST can be learned in a uniformed manner just as easily. /"4) Sits more naturally in C Major than old standard tuning. This can also help in learning the fretboard."/ Indeed, and traditional tuning sits nicely in G (1 #) which really isn't a difficult key to learn either. Again, I feel it is how you approach the tuning that matters. Just as I have approached NST wrongly and with skepticism there are those (and I am NOT saying you, Glen) who approach OST wrongly and with far too much cynicism. It only stops working when you believe that it really doesn't anymore. /"5) The fifth is a more fundamental interval than the fourth. Its easier to think about harmonic structure on an instrument tuned in fifths. An instrument tuned in fifths has more kinship to the harmonic series, and is therefore more sonorous." / What do you mean fundamental? the 4th is simply an inversion of the 5th and so what is difficult about it? I really don't understand what you mean "easier to think about harmonic structure" and would appreciate some enlightenment here. As for sonority, I don't agree. You mean (I think) that and instrument sounds better in 5ths that in 4ths, well that is a matter of personal taste really. To say that either is BETTER than the other (and then to try to cite harmonic resonance as the reason) is skating on thin ice I think. Guitars tuned the "normal way" resonate quite nicely and when there are two or more that resonance is increased, as they are sympathetic to each other. I have heard this for myself, and experienced it in my own duet playing with my father. / "6) Makes it easier to play larger intervals. This tends to make pieces composed in NST have a little more 'surprise' in them."/ Granted. but it also makes SMALL intervals harder. So one of it's strengths can be seen as a weakness. / "7) Has a great kinship with other orchestral string instruments. Cello + NST =3D big fun."/ This I can't speak to, but I imagine it to be perfectly true. The OST guitar is somewhat different to an orchestral instrument, but I rather enjoy that actually. It means that we are individuals in a way that many orchestral players cannot be. /"Disadvantages: 1) In general, it is not as good for 5 or 6 string chords and 'open' chords. Fully voiced 9th chords are difficult to assemble. This is not the tuning for sitting around the campfire and singing Beatles songs." /Larger chords do work great on OST and I am glad that someone who uses NST has pointed out this flaw. Perhaps that one wasn't just me being thick. Beatles songs? Camp fire? What level of players of OST is this meant to address? I know that Maestro Segovia never sat ANYWHERE playing Beatles songs (he hated their music actually) and I very much doubt that John Williams did either. There is, as I'm sure you know, far more to OST than a few pop songs of the '60s. /"2) Difficult to play in many of the standard guitar idioms. The standard rock and roll/blues licks that we all know and love (or loath, depending) are not what fall easily under the fingers. However, NST has its own voice." / Again, very true (I imagine). But once again, there is more to OST than minor pentatonic shapes. I really resent this low-brow depiction of traditional tuning as some lesser and more plebeian form of tuning that is only good for pop songs and blues scale wankery. I would bet that Mr. Satriani's lydian modes and one handed arpeggio licks aren't exactly under your fingers either in NST and as for playing any of the Classical guitar repertoire, well just forget it./ "3) Playing scales horizontally across the neck involves a stretch that can be a challenge to some players. It should be noted though that this is no worse than the stretch that cellists accommodate."/ Indeed, and I agree that a challenge is there. But surely that is merely a technical glitch of tuning in 5ths and one can get the same challenge from trying to play three octave scales (in OST) 4 notes per string? / "4) The low C string suffers from poor intonation on most guitars."/ You'd have to talk to a 7, 8, or 10 string player about this one but my guess is it's a nightmare on those too. I would think that someone will eventually have to develop a special set of strings for NST as I believe there now is for 10 string classical (not certain of this, so don't right me letters!) /"5) It can be isolating. You can't take lessons from the vast majority of guitar instructors in the world. You can't read most available tab. In short, it cuts you off from many of the existing resources for the guitarist. (Ah the nefarious plot becomes clear: The isolated Crafty will need to come back again and again to the Company Store for lessons, strings and picks. [Cue sinister laughter]) Actually, now that I think about it, not being able to take lessons from most guitar instructors is probably a benefit." /Well yes, you do isolate yourself by using a system that so many don't understand (myself, as a teacher, included) and even fewer use. I guess that is the price to be paid for being different (innovative, you choose). I agree that there are many bad teachers out there, but they are not all so. What this boils down to for me is the question that really started my initial post; WHY? Why does the guitar NEED to have such a radical rethink? What is SO wrong with what has already been done/could still be done with the instrument the way it was? I have received many responses expounding the virtues of NST (and curiously few attacking the weaknesses of OST) for which I AM grateful, but no-one has bothered to tell me what the actual POINT of changing the tuning was beyond the old, "to avoid clich=E9s in your playing". Well, I don't know much about WHAT the clich=E9s actually ARE but surely there are other ways of dealing with it? I mean, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because it's got a mucky bum now do you? Unlearning clich=E9s, learning NEW licks and approaches, exploring the other possibilities available and becoming a better player is just as much of a challenge in OST as in NST. It still requires a great deal of discipline, perhaps more so as you still COULD fall back into clich=E9s in OST whereas you can't in NST. But there is one major difference, you can build from a position of knowledge and achieve results much, much faster. I think the way I see starting to learn in NST is like this. Take a great player of today who uses OST (I won't insert any names here as that would only invite ridicule from those who disagreed with me) and put him on a guitar tuned to NST. He will struggle and sound inept. This is like taking an English speaking professor of physics from Oxford University and asking him to give a lecture on the finer points of the subject, but in Korean! He would be lucky to say hello correctly. You may have a huge store of knowledge and ideas in your head, but with a tuning you are so unfamiliar with, you won't have the first clue how to put these into practice. Am I wrong with this? Anyway, thank you again for all the replies that I've had, and especially thanks to Mr. Fripp for mentioning this in his diary (I don't know how many of you saw that). Mr. Fripp, you were right about two things that you said in your diary entry, 1, there is a better way to learn about NST; namely attend "guitar craft" and 2, you questioned whether I would be willing to take it on board. I think the answer to that, at this point in my life, is no. I must just correct one apparent error in your post though. You also question my /ability/ to take it on board. I would be very interested to know in what way you are judging my ability. If you mean technically and theoretically able; then frankly sir, you couldn't be more wrong. I have an excellent grounding in music theory and a pretty damn good knowledge of my instrument such that, if I ever felt I wanted to learn NST, I could. However if your observation is more of an attitudinal one, such that I simply wouldn't be open to it; I fear you are right. This saddens me more than you could possible realize. Thank you again to all, and I hope I have managed to be more clear in my reasoning this time. I do, sometimes, get very carried away with regard to subjects that mean a lot to me. As far as life activities go, nothing means more to me than the guitar. I hope that you all can understand this? All the best, Gary Ormond ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 10:13:47 +0000 From: Mr Tea Subject: Re: Fripp & Schulze This from Elephant Talk - dated 8/12/04 6=B724 am: > I found on "limewire", 2 cuts I did not know of their existence: Klaus > Schulze & Robert Fripp: "The Looper Is Not A Hooker" Klaus Schulze & Robert > Fripp: "Neuronengesang" > > I didn't find any trace of this even in John Relph's Fripp discography. > > Is this just a joke for us? (I'm just turning a big Schulze fan) Misattribution, I suspect. "The Looper Isn't a Hooker" is from Schulzes 1980 album 'Dig It', and there's no mention of Fripp in the credits. Same with the other track (from 1973's 'Cyborg' double album). As a fan of both artists from way back, I'd be well miffed to discover that they'd recorded together and I missed it! Nick pp Mr Tea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:38:02 -0600 From: David F. Snyder Subject: harmonics vs. overtones. And 5ths: perfect vs.well-tempered David Beardsley writes >David Snyder writes: "One unobvious fact: two NST guitars in close >proximity will resonate with each other (the perfect 5th is the 1st >harmonic)" Not it isn't. The third harmonic is close to the Perfect >5th. The 2nd harmonic is twice the frequency of the 1st. I did mean the 2nd overtone (not harmonic), apologies. Still, the 2nd overtone = 3rd harmonic _is_ the Perfect 5th (plus an octave, relative to the fundamental frequency), not something close to it. The well-tempered 5th is not a Perfect 5th, off by about .0136 of a Pythagorean comma. All of which does not replace my experience that hearing 80+ guitars resonating on the overtones ROCKS! Best wishes, David Snyder ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:57:04 +0100 From: Peter Westh Subject: Re: Level 5 - what's in a name? > Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 03:49:37 -0600 > From: Nadim S. Haque > Subject: Re: Level 5 - what's in a name? > > In ET 1193, David Kirkdorffer wrote: > > >> LEVEL 5; the biblical number for grace > But then again, I'm a computer nut. :) As long as "Level 5" means > something to you when you listen to it, it'll make perfect sense, and the > piece achieved its mission, I think. I'm pretty certain that "Level 5" started out as "Lark's Tounges in Aspic 5". About a year ago, whoever is writing the Vicar's diary wrote about the possibility of releasing a CD with LTIA I-IV plus Level 5. The family resemblance is obvious, if you think about it. Why the name didn't stick, I don't know. Alternatively, another place to look for possible connotations would be Guitar Craft http://www.guitarcraft.com/introduction.htm: "Level Five is where the student becomes apprenticed to Guitar Craft, and a commitment is taken to live one's life according to the spirit of this particular way of craft. In a few words, it is this: we act on principle and move from intention. Some may become professional musicians, but this is neither necessary nor appropriate for all." Peter, Denmark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:07:42 -0800 From: Maxwell Borkenhagen Subject: Re: lyrics i believe all of the lyrics from all of the albums are on the ET site, ie http://www.elephant-talk.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:25:07 -0600 From: "Ross, Robert" Subject: UNCrimson topic....VDGG 2005 reunion! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. If you haven't heard....see the link: http://www.vandergraafgenerator.co.uk/ Robert Ross Technical Services Ward E. Barnes Library University of MO @St. Louis (314)516-5110 All opinions expressed are mine alone and not the policy or official statements of the University of Missouri unless explicitly stated as such. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:35:10 -0000 From: Mike Subject: NST Dear Brian (ET 1194) NST Tuning C down from E G down from A D same A up from G E up from B G up from E Chords Forget about old tuning. Completely. It's a new instrument. C major in NST with the simplest fingering would be (from low to high) C, G, E, C, E, G (to achieve this put first finger on the D string on second fret, second finger on the A string on third fret). Any simple major or minor chord is made up of 3 notes (eg C major is CEG, E minor is EGB, D major is DFsharpA). Arrange your chosen 3 notes so they sound good in the tuning. Make up chords by ear alone, without knowing what you're playing. Have fun with it. Play around with it. Break a string. mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:44:27 -0500 From: drg55 Subject: 21 Century Schizoid doings Hi all, I just got the 2002 Japan tour dvd of 21 Century Schizoid and its quite impressive. Jacko does a great job. Their website has not been updated for a year. What are they upto now? David from down under. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:54:13 -0500 From: "Eden, Scott C Mr Contractor MONROE" Subject: Re: Downloads for dineros "Bruce Codere" wrote: > I used to be an audiophile and stereophile. The speakers hooked up to > my computer cost about 56 times less than the 801's I still have. I > don't know why I keep the 801's except for bragging rights. I fondly remember a friend and I listening to the 801's way back in the early 1980's (at Myer-Emco in Rockville, Md) and being mightily impressed by them. They had a nicely balanced sound and could take anything you could throw at them. Besides being nice looking, they were built like a brick shithouse. They looked like you could give them a really strong kick and the only thing that may happen is hurting your foot. Soundwise, how have they held up? Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:30:59 -0000 From: MOREMAN Dave Subject: King Crimson for sale at Radio Rarities There are three KC radio performances on sale here - are these legal? http://www.radiorarities.com King Crimson `Live Amsterdam, Holland 1973` As a part of The Live Concert Series, this is an incredible... Rare! A very special show with King Crimson! Here is an exclusive performance *Live Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, Holland on Novemeber 23, 1973* Tracks are: Easy Money, Lament, Book of Saturday, Exiles, Mincer, Talking Drum, Lark's Tongues, Century Schizoid Man. This is a very good cd of the event. King Crimson `Live Destination Unknown 1990` As a part of The Live Concert Series, this is an incredible... Rare! A very special show with King Crimson! Here is an exclusive performance Live Destination Unknown 1990*. Tracks are: B-Boom, Dconundrum, Dinosaur, Elephant Talk, Frame By Frame, Improv, 25 Sticks, Prism, Red, The laHunGinJeet, Thrak, Three Of A Perfect Pair, Vroom Vroom, Walking On Air. This is a very good cd of the event. King Crimson `Live New York City 1974` As a part of The Live Concert Series, this is an incredible... Rare! A very special show with King Crimson! Here is an exclusive performance *Live Central Park, New York City on July 1, 1974* Tracks are: Intro, 21st Century, Schizoid Man, Lament, Exiles, Instrumental, Easy Money, Fracture pt. I, Fracture pt. II, Fripp says goodbye, Starless, The Talking Drum, Lark's Tongues in Aspic Part II, Outro. This is the last live performance of the Fripp/Bruford/Wetton/Cross lineup of King Crimson. This is a very good cd of the event. Cheers Dave Dr. Dave.Moreman Room 110a, Mellor, Faculty of Health and Sciences, Staffordshire University, ST4 2DE, United.Kingdom email : dave dot moreman at staffs dot ac dot uk visit our distance learning website : http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/sciences/distlearn/ tel : 00 44 (1) 782 294776 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:35:07 -0500 From: Gary Davis Subject: New Belew release Hi, folks: For those interested, the latest Artist Shop Newsletter includes info on Adrian Belew's forthcoming release, Side One. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:07:09 +0100 From: Daniel_BarnaP Subject: the talking drum tabs does ANYONE have 'the talking drum' bass tabs? i was looking for it everywhere and i found nothing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:21:04 -0500 From: Ryan Tassone Subject: The future of King Crimson Robert Fripp openly states in his diary that he is considering the possibilities of a "non-touring" career for himself. I wonder if this also implies a "non-performing" version of King Crimson, or at least a King Crimson which Robert is a not part of? KC is at heart a live band, as we all know, and it would be uncharacteristic for it to turn into a studio outfit, a Steely Krimson, as it were. Regarding King Crimson's activities, Robert has recently suggested that it "do nothing." I suppose that's as viable a course of action as any. But how long can this period continue, I'm asking? Robert is rightly disgusted with the mechanisms of management and promotion that go with touring (among other things), and has every right to temporarily or permanently withdraw from that scene. King Crimson is an organisation in which much more is possible, however. I'd hate to see it end because of the damage caused to one of its members by the industry which is supposed to support it. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1195 *********************************