Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1182 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1182 Friday, 23 July 2004 Today's Topics: Postings To Elephant Talk G3 in general, Fripp vs Vai in specific The Zappa Crimso Bridge Re: Obscure Fripp album? Re: Obscure Fripp album? Re: Obscure Fripp album? Fripp's VG-8 settings? Re: Announcing Elephant Talk #1181 Obscure Fripp album? A few extra comments re G3 at RAH Any Feedback on TU? Obscure Fripp album? Re: Obscure Fripp Album? Re: G3 Live in Warsaw New York Times Editorial Niacin doing Red The Truth on Steve Vai. 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If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:40:44 GMT From: Mike Dickson Subject: Postings To Elephant Talk Just a reminder to PLEASE prefix the subject line of you posts with the word 'ETPOST'. Anything else will be taken to be spam and will be ignored. It may also be prudent to reminder ET's readership of the value of running virus protection software on their PCs. Every day I get about twenty 'Outlook' viruses delivered to the ET newsletter mailbox. None of them are going to be activated, nor are they going to be passed onto subscribers via the newsletter, but these malicious programs usually have a payload which will invariably start deleting your data without much warning. Mike Dickson Elephant Talk Administration and Distribution ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 03:26:13 -0700 From: David&Pamela Subject: G3 in general, Fripp vs Vai in specific Well...gosh. I'm not really sure how--or whether--to follow up this recently launched thread about he current G3 tour. I'm a long-term audient of all things related to KC and Fripp, as well as a wide variety of other musical forms. (For example, I'm an annual subscriber to the LA Philharmonic. And, within the vast kingdom of guitar, I'm a fan of Al DiMeola, Leo Kottke, Lawrence Juber...Talent soars far above genre.) The assumption I've seen from a few correspondents on ET--that Vai and Satch signed up Fripp without knowing what he was like--is just plain silly. The top guitarists in the world all know one another's work, and Fripp already opened for G3 back in '97, complete with Soundscapes (which Mike Kenneally played along with, at least down in San Diego.) They know Fripp , they think Fripp is a major force in the world of guitar, and they knew exactly what they were getting when they asked him to join the tour. From a more mercenary point of view, if they'd wanted someone else, I'd guess that about 80 of Guitar Player's Top 100 would be happy to sign up. I think Robert Fripp is a musical genius, but I put Steve Vai in that class, too. (When neo-classical composer Ichiro Nodaira wanted a guitarist for his Tokyo Symphony premiere of "Fire Strings," who did he pick? Mr. Vai...and rightly, in my opinion.) Vai is very tongue-in-cheek showy; his antics often reduce me to laughter, which is promptly wiped away when he follows it ten bars later by something deep and emotive. Zappa picked three key guitarists when he moved ahead in his compositional work--Belew, Kenneally, and Vai--and who am I to quarrel? (Not to belittle Satch. I like Joe Satriani as well. His early "Always With Me, Always With You" was a milestone in the development of instrumental rock, and I continue to buy, and often be challenged by, his albums. But the main issue on this site seems to be Vai and Fripp.) Steve Vai's music is not for all tastes--though I think that some people don't give it a real chance--but neither are Fripp's Soundscapes. If I have a single objection to what has happened to music in our times, it is this arthritic contraction of taste. I'm not immune to musical arthritis. I was a Crimophile from ITCOTCK onward. When DISCIPLINE was released, my first reaction was "What the hell is this?" But I trusted the band and felt that I owed them a series of respectful listens. I now understand that DISCIPLINE was one of the most important, cohesive albums in rock history. VRROOM left me scratching my head at first, and CONSTRUCTION OF LIGHT (now one of my favorite albums) was oddly disappointing on the first few listens. Take an honest look at Robert Fripp. He's an innovative guitarist--so innovative that he routinely moves, as Zappa put it, "beyond the fringe of audience comprehension." This accounts for a lot of the bitching and moaning over the years about Fripp's artistic choices. (Do I think he's always right? No. Even in retrospect, I think LIZARD is a magnificent and important album, and he seems to hate it. So? Did anyone ever seriously contend that an artist is the best judge of his own work?) Why debate the relative merits of "Soundscapes" versus, say "Red"? They aren't the same kind of thing. If I like one and don't like the other--yet trust the artist--my immediate instinct is to spend more time with the other and try to see what the artist intended. This is difficult, I admit, especially when dealing with someone as eclectic as Mr. Fripp. In the history of music, the only analogy I can come up with is Stravinsky. If you ADORED "Rite of Spring" on first hearing (though almost no one at the time did), then chances are you didn't care at first for his later "Symphony of Psalms," or his still later atonal work. But all of them are important and artistically valid, and the most amazing thing is that Stravinsky was acclaimed early in his career and yet moved on to do what he needed to do to realize the mission of his soul on this planet. (Is "Symphony of Psalms" as 'great' as "Rite of Spring"? Who cares? Trophies are for sports, not art.) Fripp has done exactly the same thing as Stravinsky; time and time again he (and other members of Crimson, notably Bruford and Belew and Levin) have turned aside from the pursuit of wealth and acclaim--at times when financial success was within grasp--and instead pursued a musical vision. When someone does this, it seems to me that they have earned my respect; and, more important, have earned respectful and open-minded listening to the music they produce. I admit this post is diffuse. I guess I can summarize in a few points: 1) If you respect an artist, you ought to at least be open to his choices. I became interested in TOOL through their tour with KC, and I know a number of TOOL fans who first became acquainted with KC through TOOL. Does it matter who's 'better'? Not to me. Be thankful that people are making real music, for Chrissakes, and not just prepping for jobs in Britney Spears' backup band. 2) Try and keep your ears flexible, and don't get glued to one genre. If you get narrow, you not only will hinder your favorite artists in their evolution, you will also miss the joy of what is going on as artists develop. To hurt an artist is excusable, though not laudable, but why hurt yourself? 3) I am pleased that Vai/Satriani would ask Fripp to play again as part of G3. I am pleased that Fripp accepted. There is a kind of mutual recognition going on there that transcends categorization and classic pigeonholing...and also transcends typical financial concerns. Good for all of them. I respect their decisions. 4) What you appreciate today may not be what you appreciate tomorrow. I'm not mindlessly arguing that whatever lands in your ear must be admired; but I do believe that, unless your appreciation expands as your life goes on, your soul has stopped its growth. 5) None of these people were born from their mother's wombs with guitars in their hands, their fingers already flying up and down the frets. To those who feel they can make better choices or better music: what's stopping you? I'm sure that if Fripp or Vai or Satriani were consulted, they'd be the first to encourage you to put your vision out there for the world to see. None of these guys were born rich or famous or dexterous. If you've got a better vision of where music ought to go, get off your butt. 6) Melville was a popular, well-paid author until the day he wrote "Moby Dick." That book, now widely regarded as a candidate for the Great American Novel, was ignored by the public and assaulted by the critics of the day. His career went into decline, and he finished his days as an Inspector of the Docks; his acclaimed novel "Billy Budd" wasn't published until decades after his death. My point? Contemporaries of artists don't know shit about real artistic merit. I'm not trying to squelch debate. But does critical judgment have to be so arrogant, cocksure, and vituperative? Is gossip about who said what about whom really valuable? And, above all, does any of this encourage the musicians involved, and result in better music for us to listen to? Try to be open-minded, and open-eared. Regards, David Isaak ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:44:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Stuart Kirkham Subject: The Zappa Crimso Bridge I've been following the G3 debates with some degree of amused detachment. I don't particularly care about the "controversies" or whatever, but have been waxing philosophical about the legacies of Frank Zappa and Fripp on the contemporary music scene. These two were both very much involved with the concept of live performance more so than the recorded media, but with greatly different approaches to the nature of showmanship and "the performance." These differences seem to be mainfesting themselves in the Vai/Fripp comparisons currently making the rounds. It is also interesting to note Adrian Belew's ability to stand in both camps, and achieve the goals of both perspectives rather successfully. Anyhow, I respect the abilities of both Vai and Satriani, but have never been particularly excited by either (I do actually own a couple of Vai's recordings, but none of Satrianai's). Both seemed to fall flat with me; there seems to be some kind of "feel" to these guitar-hero solo albums, that after the first few songs they begin to sound very much alike and seem to be somewhat limited in scope. I even get that feeling listening to Trey Gunn's albums (who I like and respect, don't get me wrong). Along these lines, I've been pleased to see the chatter in regard to Fripp's "Exposure." I have thoroughly enjoyed this album over the years, and have always considered it to be one of his best. It showcases the wide range of his abilities, and avoids the pitfalls of the guitar-hero thing I was whining about above. I can't even bear to listen to NY3, not because I dislike it, but because it is so intense, being something of an early version of "reality" audio (audio-verite indeed). Anyhow, that's the way it is because it is that way... Also, most of my exposure to Zappa, Vai and Satriani came by way of a good friend of mine, who is probably reading this, needs to stop meta-lurking and drop me a line!!! Trying hard not to shriek, Stu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:57:57 +1000 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: Re: Obscure Fripp album? To Mike Fergus, regarding the Seventh Wave: Psi-Fi (correct spelling) LP question. I believe you are mistaken. No Fripp on this album unless it is an unknown, uncredited cameo appearance... In fact, no guitar is credited at all. Seventh Wave: Psi-Fi (1975) vinyl Labels: Gull Records GULP 1010, Janus 7021 Produced by Neil Richmond 1. Return to Foreverland=20 2. Roads to Rome 3. Manifestations 4. Loved by You 5. Only the Beginning 6. Aether Anthem 7. Astral Animal 8. El Tooto 9. Camera Obscura 10. Star Palace of the Sombre Warrior Ken Elliott: vocals, keyboards/synths, pedals & percussion Keiran O'Connor: drums, percussion & vocals Rob Elliott: vocals Tony Elliott: vocals & bongos Tony Utah: percussion Brian Gould: organ & Crumar Stringman Pepi Lemer: vocals Pete Lemer: ARP synth, RMI & Crumar piano Hugh Banton: organ, Mellotron & ARP synth Steve Cook: electric bass & double bass Chris Amson: sequencer reissued on CD as part of Seventh Wave: Things to Come/Psi-Fi (1999) CD Label: See For Miles; ASIN: B00001O341, Catalogue Number: SEECD696 see: http://uk.geocities.com/garyf2k1/seventhwave/7w_discog.htm Cheers, Owen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:02:18 -0700 From: Dresden Black formerly Doug Reith-Hart Subject: Re: Obscure Fripp album? > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:52:09 -0400 > From: Mike Fergus > Subject: Obscure Fripp album? > > In the mid-70s, I came upon an album that, if my memory serves me, > included > Robert Fripp and an all-star lineup of musicians. (My father worked > for a > newspaper that did not have a record reviewer, so albums sent to the > publication came to me, including this one.) The album was labelled: > > Seventh Wave > Sci Fi > > I was never sure which line was the group's name and which was the > album > title. I seem to think it was a European release. . It was, however, a > mind-blowing album. A friend of mine who fronted a Crimson-inspired > band > borrowed the disc around 1977 and I have not seen or heard of it (or > him) > since. Did this recording exist, or is the mental haze that > epitomized the > progressive rock era obscuring my memory? I did not see the album > mentioned in Mr. Fripp's discography. I would love to find a copy > again. Seventh Wave was the name of the band - they made 2 albums in the 70's...as far as I know, and according to the site I've linked below, Fripp does not play on the records. http://uk.geocities.com/garyf2k1/seventhwave/ Dresden ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:35:03 -0700 (MST) From: Chris Heckman Subject: Re: Obscure Fripp album? Mike Fergus wrote: > In the mid-70s, I came upon an album that, if my memory serves me, included > Robert Fripp and an all-star lineup of musicians. (My father worked for a > newspaper that did not have a record reviewer, so albums sent to the > publication came to me, including this one.) The album was labelled: > > Seventh Wave > Sci Fi > > I was never sure which line was the group's name and which was the album > title. http://www.allmusic.com/ is your friend! (Although now they require you to register to view certain information; some of that appears below.) Actually, it was called _Psi-Fi_ (1975); they had another album called _Things To Come_ (1974). The two main musicians are Kieran O'Connor and Ken Elliot (both of Second Hand). Supporting musicians are: Chris Amson (also listed as Anson?), Hugh Banton, Steve Cook, Tony Elliot, Brian Gould, Pete Lemer, and Tony Utah (Uter?). All-music failed to find anything else close. An album called _Sci Fi Party_ (various artists) was released in 1974. > I did not see the album mentioned in Mr. Fripp's discography. My guess (as well as all-music's) is that it's not mentioned because he wasn't listed in the credits. > I would love to find a copy again. Both their albums have been re-released on CD. -- Christopher "HeKcman" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:09:56 -0700 From: R. Jackson Subject: Fripp's VG-8 settings? Has Mr. Fripp ever made any of his Roland VG-8 patches public? I got a used VG-8EX a few months ago and I'd love to try some of them out. -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:33:52 EDT From: Gelberronald Subject: Re: Announcing Elephant Talk #1181 When do they elepant talk the existance of Crim on karaoke CDG? (Yes, it exists) Gelberronald at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:33:38 +0200 From: =?Windows-1250?B?TWFjaWVqIEhvs2Rh?= Subject: Obscure Fripp album? Album title was Psi-Fi, not Sci fi, it was released in 1975, and AFAIK Fripp hadn't played on it. -- Cheers, Maciek ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:06:40 +0100 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: A few extra comments re G3 at RAH A great evening. Others have provided the full review, but here are few additional observations: - Robert standing motionless in the wings for several minutes before his set. From where I was sitting, he was clearly in view (in fact, the only time he was in clear view the entire evening). My wife's comment: "Look at the Alexandrian!" - Superb sound for the Soundscapes. The Royal Albert Hall really suits this music. A full evening's performance would be interesting. - A huge cheer when Robert started playing, from those that thought his opening notes were a great-sounding intro. Followed by a tangible wave of disbelief a couple of minutes in, as realisation sank in that this was it - nothing else was going to happen. - Following a slight pause between Soundscapes, a further wave of unsettlement as the second piece started, and the realisation that we were expected to listen to more. - A marvellous mood for those (the majority, I think) who chose to listen. Actually, beneath the seeming sameness there was greater variety than the musicians later on the bill were able to provide. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy Vai and Satriani - I did. But variation and subtlety isn't really part of what they do. - Heckling. A long tradition at the RAH, and not out-of-place with Soundscapes. I couldn't actually here what was said, but it seemed to provoke laughter from those who could. Also a response of "shut up" from someone who seemed to want to defend Robert's honour (perhaps unnecessary). - Someone in front of me taking out his phone during the Soundscapes. Surely not to make a phone call? Perhaps take a picture? No... he wanted to improve his score on some game. Good use of the time, I think. - Yet another gasp of disbelief as Robert opened the 2nd half of the show. Surely not another Soundscape? No - just an atmospheric intro for Satriani. Relief all around. - Bizarre arrangement of Red, opening and closing with the theme from ITCOTKC. Strange extended jam around the middle "string" section. Excellent playing from Robert, although far too low in the mix. - Robert blowing exaggerated kisses to the galleries behind him, and mouthing (I think) "I love you all" I had to buy the T-shirt, of course. A bit like a faulty printing of a bank note, surely the scandal of Robert's fake legs will be collectible, and will one day fund my retirement when I sell this item on eBay? My 13-year old son's appraisal: Fripp: boring Vai: looks like he escaped from the 70s Satriani: cool ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:52:59 +0100 From: Iain Robertson Subject: Any Feedback on TU? Would anyone who's heard the TU side project from Gunn/Mastelloto like to comment? -- Iain Robertson SMTS UK Design Centre, Texas Instruments, Northampton, UK Phone: 3412; Fax: 3456; Prefix: +8 466 (PSTN: +44 1604 66) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:33:27 +0100 From: Brian Parker Subject: Obscure Fripp album? Note: Post doesn't have a ticket number - so sending to both ET and mfergus RE: Seventh Wave - Sci-Fi Indeed such an animal exists, I own a copy. However, I'm not 100% sure that Fripp is on it - unfortunately can't check until Friday (200 miles away from my record collection). I do believe that Hugh Banton (VdGG) is on it, but can't remember who else. I do/did like the album (or so I recall) but I wouldn't class it as Crimson-ish in any way shape or form (neither for that matter is it VdGG-ish !), but fun anyway. Let me know if you have had any specific offers, otherwise maybe we can do some sort of deal. (And thanks for reminding me of the album, maybe it's time to dust off the ol' magnetic cartridge....) BP Brian Parker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:32:01 +0100 From: Hewitt Simon-PT1264 Subject: Re: Obscure Fripp Album? In ET #1181 Mike Fergus asked about an album by Seventh Wave. The following is [edited] from www.allmusic.com: "Formed by Kieran O'Connor and Ken Elliot after the dissolution of the British progressive band Second Hand, Seventh Wave is an early example of a synth duo, a pop configuration that was to loom large in the 1980s. They released two albums in quick succession in the mid-70s, on which they showed a certain instrumental fecundity. Elliot's tools were a veritable catalogue of 70s synth technology (ARP, clavinet, Moog, Crumar strings, Mellotron), while O'Connor showed a distinct orchestral bent in his array of percussion instruments. While their debut (Things to Come, 1974) struck an uneasy balance between pop-rock and prog synth, they cultivated the latter influence more successfully on their next release (Psi-Fi, 1975). Both albums have been rereleased [back to back on See For Miles SEECD696, but showing as unavailable at Amazon] on CD, allowing a glimpse at an interesting, if lesser known, stab at early synth rock. " Hope this helps, Simon Hewitt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:05:15 +0200 From: danilo galli Subject: Re: G3 Live in Warsaw In reply to the review of the G3 concert in Warsaw submitted by Dr.Juergen Joachimsthaler in Et118 ,and having seen G3 just a week before in Rome ,apart from his comments about Vai (no complexity in his show?!?) and Satriani (a rock'n'roller nu-metal oriented?!?!), I totally disagree on the supposed destroyment of Red, done by G3 on the jam part of the show.As Mr.Fripp uses to say "king crimson music is a dynamic,ongoing mutating body.That's what they've done to Red,render it in a new perspective ,abridging and thightening,or taking(?), it to the limit. Hearing it once again was pure ecstasy.We Kc Enthusiasts should be proud of the choice of performing a Kc piece,done by those three great musicians, not moaning about the way it was rendered. All the best to you all Ad maiora Danilo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:56:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Stuart Kirkham Subject: New York Times Editorial Here is a link to a New York times editorial: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/21/opinion/21wed4.html?th that discusses the reaction of the audience at a Las Vegas performance by Linda Ronstadt after she dedicated a song to Michael Moore. It is of interest to this forum because it discusses the rights of the performer vs. the expectations of the audience. It is worth a read, and maybe it can inspire some discussion. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:47:45 +0100 From: Keith Collyer Subject: Niacin doing Red Heard the band Niacin doing KC's Red on an Internet radio show the other night and it rocked! I mean, it actually rocked, not just it rraawwkkeddd. Check it out if you get the chance. Niacin are a sort of supergroup of people who have rarely been famous in their own right, but played in many famous bands. Cheers KeithC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:48:35 +1000 From: SEAN ANDREW CURTIN Subject: The Truth on Steve Vai. Fellow ETer's. One more thing from the previously 6 year silent ETer(possibly not even on the ET list anymore due to new emails and all that). I was astonished at the number of emails relating to this alleged negative Steve Vai comment. Well my comments and the proof to back it up. UTTER NONSENSE with sprinklings of BULLSHIT ON TOP. If in doubt go to the source. See: http://www.vai.com/News/index.html Go to Steves July 11th, 2004 note. That should kill any silly rumors going around about the negative comment. Read Steves comments on one of our all time favourite albumns "Exposure". Was just checking out any last minute details before I go to see Steve's concert here in Australia on Monday. If only Robert could have joined him. Alas he's too busy with other projects at the moment. God bless him and keep him rockin. All the best, Sean A. Curtin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:15:20 +1000 From: SEAN ANDREW CURTIN Subject: MASSIVE QUESTION (surely on everyone's minds!) Hello fellow ETers, It's been 6 years since my last posting and I have been ultra busy in that time so please forgive me if my question is dated or shunned or even worse. Now to the point. Will G3 Live in Europe 2004 be comming to a DVD near you sometime in the near future? If the answer to this question from possibly annoyed ETers is: "How should I know? I'm not the record company?", "Don't ask me!!", "Who knows?" etc, then the obvious needs to happen for action to occur. Let's get a petition going so it sees the light of day before it's all forgotten about. By what I have been reading from fellow Fripp fans, it sounded like it was a most amazing concert and you are all most fortunate. It's nice to read about it if nothing else so please keep those reviews comming. Add to this I am confident that Joe would surely support a release if the fans will back it. Lastly, if any affiliated members of King Crimson should be reading this letter, then it should be known that there is a huge King Crimson and Robert Fripp, Adrian Belew, Pat Mastelotto, trey gunn fans in Australia and a concert would be really nice if you could spare the time one day. The DVD releases of the KC concerts have been a tonic relief to the fans like myself in Australia and much appreciated. Yes fellow ETers I am mailing the sites etc. Thank you for your patience. All the best, Sean A. Curtin PS. Some Nostalgia for you: PAT MASTELOTTO was awesome on the 1983 albumn by Martin Briley - One Night With a Stranger. It may not be everyones cup of tea but it's a rocking albumn in my opinion. A classic. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1182 *********************************