Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1174 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1174 Monday, 12 April 2004 Today's Topics: NEWS: Elephant Talk Submissions NEWS: Here comes the League of Crafty Guitarists! NEWS: KC Mention in March 8th Belew update Re: KC to an Adolescent Fripp touring in the UK after all Orb/Bass Guitar Mag Arabesque Eno Re-releases Crim is back! Opus Dei-Discipline connection? mulitaska 14 Re: broadcast KC live concert What Night Wounds Time? Show your support for Fripp album release In reference to Craft and other Scarlet Pimpernel slices . Crimhead in Taipei Re: Show your support for Fripp album release: correction Bill Bruford and The Sheltering Sky how funny SACD? Who has KC opened for? bootlegs ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send *all posts* to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com ** Posts intended for the newsletter should have a subject prefix of ETPOST ** Posts intended for an individual newsletter contributor should have a subject prefix of their ET 'Ticket Number', shown at ETxxxxx in their 'From:' line in the newsletter. To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:12:45 GMT From: Mike Dickson Subject: NEWS: Elephant Talk Submissions Just a gentle reminder - Any submissions for ET must have a subject line that starts with the letters 'ETPOST' (without the quotes). Anything else will be rejected and eventually deleted. I confess that I *have* been sifting through submissions without this inclusion and have been forwarding them myself. This will now stop - anything that doesn't have this prefix will be ignored. Mike Dickson Elephant Talk Administration and Distribution ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:55:01 -0800 From: Sandra Subject: NEWS: Here comes the League of Crafty Guitarists! The League of Crafty Guitarists will kick off their west coast tour in Seattle, at The Rendezvous in Belltown on April 7. Also, watch for news of warmup gigs in the Seattle vicinity during the preceding weeks. Updates can be found at http://www.seattleguitarcircle.com Wednesday April 7 The Rendezvous Jewel Box Theatre 2320 Second Avenue Seattle, WA (206) 441-5823 Thursday April 8 Portland Institute of Contemporary Art 219 NW 12th Avenue Portland, OR (503) 242-1419 2 shows - 7:00 and 9:30pm $18 PICA Members / $20 general admission limited seats for both shows to reserve seats email: tickets at portlandcircle dot com Friday April 9 WOW Hall 291 West 8th Avenue Eugene, OR (541) 687-2746 Doors 8:00pm Show 8:30, $13/15 Sunday April 11 Little Fox Theatre 2215 Broadway Redwood City, CA (650) FOX-4119 Show 8:00pm, $12/14 Tickets at: www.foxdream.com Monday April 12 Henfling's Firehouse Tavern 9450 Hwy 9 Ben Lomond, CA (831) 336-8811 Show 8:00pm, $10 Adv./$12 Door Tuesday April 13 Mercury Lounge 5871 Hollister Avenue Goleta, CA (near Santa Barbara) (805) 967 0907 With an opening set by Chapman stick virtuoso Tom Griesgraber Wednesday April 14 Genghis Cohen 740 N Fairfax Avenue Los Angeles, CA (310) 578.5591 With an opening set by Chapman stick virtuoso Tom Griesgraber Friday April 15 Liquid Den 5061 Warner Avenue Huntington Beach, CA (714) 377-7964 Show 7:30pm, $10 With an opening set by Chapman stick virtuoso Tom Griesgraber Saturday April 16 Dizzy's 344 Seventh Avenue San Diego, CA (858) 270-7467 Show 10:00pm, $10 With an opening set by Chapman stick virtuoso Tom Griesgraber ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:41:08 -0600 From: Rob Murphree Subject: NEWS: KC Mention in March 8th Belew update Hi E.T.! Long time - no post. I DO apologize. Adrian has posted an update regarding his latest studio works and the current King Crimson sessions. The update should contain something for everyone. I think you'll enjoy it! Here's an excerpt: ".by the end of the day we could proudly say we learned more and sooner than expected but my ribs hurt from laughing so much. at any rate The Mighty Crim #7 is launched." For the complete update as well as past updates, visit: www.adrianbelew.net and look for Adrian's Corner. Thanks. Rob Murphree official adrian belew web site www.adrianbelew.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:06:46 -0000 From: daniel chinn Subject: Re: KC to an Adolescent Joe wrote: > This being my first contribution to the ET newsletter, I must ask: Am I the > youngest ETer? I was turned on to Fripp and friends at age 9, and am now 11. > Adults hardly ever know who the hell I'm talking about, let alone my immature, > mass-produced-pop-crap gobbling friends. I now am steadily building my KC CD > colleKtion, although my father has substantial vinyl of Crimso. Keep it up! And let us know if you encounter any other teenaged Crim-influenced groups coming through - they are out there, and sometimes us old gits miss them... > I think there is an unwritten "recipe" for modern groups and their images. In the > boy band, you have the sensitive, innocent hottie, the ladies' man, the mature > big-brother-type figure, the rapper, and the tattooed badass. (this formula works > with Spice Girls-type groups, except "sensitive, innocent hottie" is replaced with > "innocent girl, just turned eighteen and has a really naughty side", "ladies' man" > is replaced with "whore", and "tattooed badass" is replaced with "dominatrix" > [sorry, Scary Spice, but the leather kinda does that for you.]). > > On the other hand, you have KC, Indeed. Now my rogue subconscious is pestering me as to which Crimpersons (past and present) fit the recipe Joe suggests: "sensitive, innocent hottie" - well, according to our old friend Josie, that was Trey... "the ladies' man" - probably Greg Lake "the mature big-brother-type figure" - Tony Levin "the rapper" - um... lives in Pat's back pocket and keeps shouting into his drum mikes. "the tattooed badass" - hmmm... when did we last see Fripp in short sleeves? What kind of Yakuza horrors is he hiding from us? Well, Crimson HAVE done barbershop, so boyband is the next logical step. Let's see them put an old Bee Gees song through the math-rock shredder for us... And I'm sure Ade would be up for the dance steps. This gives a whole new meaning to "Collector's Club 7", at any rate (at least for us Europeans living in the shadow of our pop charts). > Crimson was a band that I actually loved the idea of. I wanted to make ambient > music, I wanted to break into fractal projeckts, I wanted to be a Schizoid Man. And > that's how it is. Sounds good to me. Let us know how you get on. Dann ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:42:25 -0000 From: Alan Gent Subject: Fripp touring in the UK after all Well, life is full of surprises, for me at any rate. I have just = secured a ticket for a gig called 3G, '04 which is 3 guitarists = strutting their stuff. Those 3 are: Steve Vai, Joe Satriani and our man Fripp. Does this explain the lack = of a UK tour for KC, when Robert is engaged in one of his solo phases? Check out the tour locations, it looks extensive. Alan www.alangent.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:25:41 -0500 From: Illoman Subject: Orb/Bass Guitar Mag Does anyone have a copy of FFWD by the Orb they'd like to trade? I believe it's out of print, and very hard, at least for me, to find. Thanks! Also, the latest issue of Bass Guitar magazine has a great article on Trey Gunn, and they have some stellar things to say about Crimso. They are referred to as "...premier purveyors of the virtuosic, muscularly intellectual side of rock..." Trey also picks his favorite Crimson bass lines. Check it out!! Visit my site! View my paintings! See Homer! http://home.att.net/~illoman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:59:45 -0500 From: Joe Richards Subject: Arabesque While this may be slightly off-topic as it is more directed at a Robert = Fripp diary entry than a King Crimson topic perhaps this is of some = small interest to some readers or might at some future time merit a = response from those so moved. Several years ago as a hobby/source of = extra income I began teaching very rudimentary and early intermediate = classical piano to children, most of them friends of my own kids. I = teach a few kids on the weekend and then on alternating Monday nights I = have a group lesson in which a few kids ranging from 5 to 13 years old = gather to play music games and study music theory. I have one student, = my most advanced, who has been preparing for a piano jury competition in = May and one of the pieces he and his parents have chosen is Debussy's = Arabesque No. 1 in E. Since that piece is very nuanced and complicated, = last week I went out and gathered 10 different versions of Arabesque = from my collection and the library (plus Tomita's synthesizer version) = to help my student could work towards a greater understanding of all of = the choices that must be made in approaching the piece. On Monday, March 1 I played all of the various versions of Arabesque for = my class with the idea of giving them a break from the usual theory = exercises that I teach. I told them that they would have to vote on = their favorite version at the end with the idea that the vote would = encourage them to listen and behave. Whereas during the typical hour = class I usually have to reprimand at least one of the kids for poor = behavior, by the time the second (Phillipe Entremont) version was = playing all of the kids were in total silence and by the time Tomita had = finished the last version even the younger members of the class were in = rapt attention. Among all of the versions the runaway winner was by = Werner Haas with Walter Giesling's 1950's version in second. At the end = of the class both kids and parents had very high praise for the = Arabesque. It was one of my s I would never have even written about this but when I read Mr. Fripp's = diary entry of the exact same date in which he had such strong = compliments for the very same piece I felt moved to send this in. = Perhaps if Mr. Fripp writes about Arabesque No. 1 again he will share = which version he enjoyed so much on March 1. =20 Thank you. =20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:05:48 -0600 From: Hynek Dvorak Subject: Eno Re-releases Guess that someone was scannin' me brainwaves, and is grantin' my wish!=20 This from The Raft; "First four seminal albums are repackaged and re-released for your = listening pleasure =20 One of the founding members of Roxy Music, Brian Eno's departure in 1973 = led him along a more experimental but nevertheless acclaimed path. = Accredited as the pioneer of ambient music he's also collaborated with = Talking Heads and produced U2, David Bowie and James. In addition, he's written several books, created art installations, = given numerous interviews on a variety of subjects and lectured = intensively. =20 And on 17th May, Eno's first four solo albums are being repackaged and = re-released. They are: Here Come The Warm Jets (1973), Taking Tiger = Mountain (By Strategy) (1974), Another Green World (1975) and Before & = After Science (1977). His early recordings are rock based and more experimental in sound and = style than what was considered 'mainstream' at the time. Even his lyrics = often seemed like streams of consciousness or unrelated sentences. =20 Here Come The Warm Jets was an energetic and experimental oeuvre which = reached the UK top 30. Taking Tiger Mountain was a collection of = abstract pop tracks inspired by a Chinese revolutionary opera.=20 Meanwhile Another Green World and the follow-up, Before & After Science = featured his first steps into ambient music. =20 These re-releases are just the beginning: all of his albums are to be = re-released in collections of four. The entire collection will be = released with stickers featuring opinions and quotes from a variety of = sources. The music will not be 'remastered' but instead will be = re-transferred by Simon Heyworth from the original analogue masters." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:13:25 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Wasser Subject: Crim is back! If Robert is reading this ... Thanks for posting a picture of the music that you've written. I just think that it's so awesome to see the sheet music. It's very ... intimate. And, to the boys, in general ... So, what are the chances that I can sit in the corner of Adrian's house, watching and listening to you all play, write, and record. I'll pay money. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:26:53 -0600 From: Jeff Bridge Subject: Opus Dei-Discipline connection? I was just wondering if anybody could shed some light on if their is a connection between the Opus Dei practice of corporal mortification; a practice where an Opus Die member clasp a ring of thorns called a discipline around their thighs as a way of atoning for ones daily sins, and the album cover for Discipline. Disipline(the album), also sports a picture of a knotted rope which may or may not be symbolic of the Opus Die pratice. A lot of King Crimson's imagery on early album covers also has similarities to well known symbols for the Freemasons and the supposed Illuminati. ...yes, I've been reading Dan Brown. ------------------------------ Date: 13 March 2004 21:24 From: wilicry Subject: mulitaska 14 MultiTaska 14 14 HOURS OF NONSTOP MUSIC IMPROVISATION!!! Looking for performers, film production crews, audio crews and promotional sponsors for this one of a kind event. 14 hours of live nonstop improvisation, in one day!? Yes, you read it correctly. Chris Boulet (WowWhyWow, Monkey with a Thumb) and Willie Oteri (Spiral Out with Tony Levin and Pat Mastelotto and Mike Keneally, Jazz Gunn) host 14 hours of nonstop improvisation in Padova, Italy at the club Banale, March 31st, featuring some of Italy's finest jazz and rock musicians and very special guests from around the globe performing one big loop of creative madness. As far as we know this is the only event like this in the world. 14 plus hours of nonstop improvised music! That's right, 14 plus hours, nonstop. This is a well-equipped club in the beautiful city Padova where some of you may have performed in the past. This should prove to be one great event in a great city with great people, food and history. We are also seeking sponsors to help bring some of the invited names to the show and to help with cash for 14 hours of recording!!! Are we crazy? Was there ever a question? We would also like to film the event so if you are or have access to a professional film or video equipment and crews please let us know. As we said this is a one of a kind event with very special guests. At present, because of legal issues, we cannot mention who some of these guests are but if you are interested in helping out we can send you a list privately. Let the spirit of adventure set the tone. Sincerely, Willie Oteri Chris Boulet Contact: Willie at telephone: 340-096-6970, email: Willie at willieoteri dot com or wilicry at willieoteri dot com or Chris Boulet at wowwhywow at freemail dot it or telephone Chris at Cell: 347-236-1086 - if outside Italy include country code 011 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:22:55 +0100 From: f.bruinenberg Subject: Re: broadcast KC live concert This broadcast is not on Saterday the 10th of April but on Saterday the 10th of July,the same weekend as this years North Sea Jazz Festival. This has been told to me by someone of 4FM. Yes it will be an Internet-broadcast!And this is the link you need to listen to it http://portal.omroep.nl/radio/mplayer4 Also the told me that the are working an a english version of the site. Kind regards Fred >Thanks for the info! Do you know if it will be an Internet-broadcast?>Will you post the actual link as soon as it becomes available >(Dutch is not an>easy language to browse a website ;))? >Dario ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:23:19 EST From: JacobVB Subject: What Night Wounds Time? This is something I've wondered about since 1974 when "Starless & Bible Black" came out. The graphic on the album cover has partially obscured text, of which the words "this night wounds time," can be seen clearly. Is this from some text or merely construKcted for the album cover? Anyone know the story? JaKcob FanatiKc since 1973 [ Please refer to the FAQ at www.elephant-talk.com --Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:53:18 +1100 From: Keenan, Owen Subject: Show your support for Fripp album release Hi one, Hi all, A while back on ET I brought up the topic of the unreleased Sunday All = Over The World live album. This band have at least ELEVEN unreleased = tracks in the vaults. In order to get an idea of how much support there = is for this "lost" album I have started a thread (not really a petition, = just a casual chat) at the Toyah dreamscape message board. Please show your support by adding your comments at http://dreamscape.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=3D15 You need to register first, this only takes a few seconds, and is well = worth it when you consider that this small gesture may help see the = release of new Fripp material. Thanks, Owen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:30:03 -0800 (PST) From: Turtle Da Mannn Subject: In reference to Craft and other Scarlet Pimpernel slices . A small gathering of crumbs of propagation from the cupboard for our new puerile recruit Joe " Below Average " Oakes . Scarlet Monarch lore is your wish to fertile one's perception and to strive for the methodical insight of an elegant majestic wizard . This is the place to answers of one's inquiries and it is a nobel endeavor indeed . I did'nt start my own travels of musical science at your age of inspiration with the ruby crowned minstrels , but I did start my progressive musical pilgrimage at the inaugural beginning of the Crimson Road . Much like many of the other King's fellow travelers you'll find on these pertinent illuminated pages . You sound like a perceiving aspirating young guitarist . Mr. Fripp is definitely a reverent mountain to start with , maybe one of the highest of all in our land . Followers beyond yourself and I , will learn from the many reincarnations of this orchestra ( some say a bantam of Heaven's or Hell's messengers ) for centuries past our own crawling days on earth . Enjoy your findings , chew slowly and digest the knowledge that never seems to end . Guitar Craft deals with the mind and relationship to the teachings of musicianship from the courses at Claymont Court in West Virginia . There Mr. Fripp was at the time the acting president of the American Society For Continuous Education , a not - for - profit educational corporation . Two of the earliest albums that represent this indoctrinate movement is " Robert Fripp and the League of Crafty Guitarists / LIVE " and " Toyah and Fripp featuring the League of Crafty Guitarists - THE LADY OR THE TIGER " both companion albums are from 1986 . This I believe was the beginning of the fruitfull Robert Fripp / Trey Gunn collaborations in many undertakings . Also , The California Guitar Trio are alumnus from the Fripp/New Tuning Guitar Craft Claymont Seminar courses . You can receive information for one of the many group courses at this email address : care of Sandra Prow the Guitar Craft NA Database Administrator . The snail mail West Virginia address from the original album is : Guitar Craft Claymont Seminars Rt 1 , Box 279 Charles Town West Virginia 25414 telephone (0101) 304 725 - 4437 This is in mention to Mr. Jimbo's statement about the bands KC , PFM and Peter Sinfield . Which I must say , I still find PFM as one of the premier bands of Italy's progressive saga . The album " PHOTOS OF GHOSTS " is the American remake of their early Italian master piece " PER UN AMICO " . >From what I've collected over the years that the American verses by Mr. Sinfield are of his own sculpting . The Italian verses are completely different in meaning and did'nt fit as nicely into an American translation / musical notation . End result both albums are different in verse and in musical instrumentation . In my view , they are two most enjoyable albums and a must have in one's consummate progressive collection . As for as Mr. Jimbo's statement , " The first song -- RIVER OF LIFE -- would be right at home on any early KC recording , almost too much at home . Jeez , if George Harrison got sued for ripping off HE'S SO FINE .... " First Premiata Forneria Marconi did not use any of King Crimson's notation in anyway or form . Yes they are greatly influenced by King Crimson's early work but what progressive band at that time was'nt and still are more then 30 years later . The title King fits the bill appropriately . King Crimson opened the great gates for all the disciples to follow . You forget that Mr. Sinfield became pretty much the functioning solitary nucleus behind the poetic verses that graced so many early epic King Crimson recordings . For him not to write in his own eminently distinctive way , would be chaining his mind to the block . It would be a heart deep open wound . If you heard a guitarist playing in another band . Even tho he did'nt play the same notes in his new band but you could tell who the guitarist was by his determinate style . Does that mean you sue them ? Example Peter Banks left " Yes " and formed the band " Flash " . People would say they sounded just like " Yes " but in reality they had their own sound but Peter Banks was such a large intricate part of the making of the early " Yes " sound . That people would say he was cloning his former band . Now how can one be a clone of " oneself " ? He is only one man and a founding archetypal inventor ! Does he not have the right to be himself ? If one is recognized for their superb unique individualism . I say then , that person has made a gratificating mark in this pondering world and has the right to be . TURTLE DA MANNN OF TURTLE CIRCUS St. louis " Mississippi " Missouri , USA I was There !!! ` ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:15:41 +0800 From: Julien Perriard Subject: Crimhead in Taipei Hello, I'm a Swiss KC amateur exiled (for one year, or so it seems) in a faraway land : Taiwan. I just wanted to know if the Taiwanese or "expatriated-in-Taiwan" Elephant Talk readers could tell me : 1. If there are interesting taiwanese labels, bands, clubs, etc. that I might discover here 2. If there are shops selling other CDs than those made by Mandarin boys-bands, Taiwanese-Britney-Spears-lookalikes and the usual international artists that you find everywhere (Elton, Phil, Michael, Elvis, Cristina, etc.). I know the "Fnac" (French store) but am not satisfied at all... I like all kinds of music, so for example contemporary classical taiwanese composers or traditional music would be of interest, as would electronic music, death metal or any "basic" rock or pop record with good compositions and arrangements, etc. I would be delighted to get some information. I'm really sick of what I'm forced to hear in the elevators and shops. Please reply using my private e-mail address only. Thank you! Julien ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:55:02 +1100 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: Re: Show your support for Fripp album release: correction Whoops, just realised that registration is not needed to reply to topics = at the Dreamscape forums. So now **YOU** can show your support for this = lost live SAOTW album just by clicking the reply button at = http://dreamscape.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=3D15=20 So, what are you waiting for?=20 Cheers,=20 Owen=20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:36:17 -0500 From: Donald Gavron Subject: Bill Bruford and The Sheltering Sky To Any and All, What is the name of the percussion instrument that Bill Bruford plays in "The Sheltering Sky"? In the video "Live at Frejus" he can be seen playing this instrument to hypnotic effect. I know this question has been asked countless times before, but the name of the instrument escapes me. Thanks for any future help on this question. Donald Gavron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:21:39 +0200 From: armin + jacqueline Subject: how funny hi there, a large joke from Robert Fripp can be found on his DGM-Diary from = .....guess.....1. of april. Try out.....isn't it funny??!! april, april, kind regards from=20 armin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:27:23 -0500 From: David Gargano Subject: SACD? Big Daddy Fripp!!! If you're reading this, please give us basement dwellers something to fetishize about and release any upcoming KC or related recordings as SACD's! I've heard your playing on SACD via Peter Gabriel's SACD's and it's quite nice. I hear Captain Eno will be embracing the format as well. Time to smash the CD vs. Vinyl debate and move on to SACD. Love and joy to you, David in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:11:00 +0000 From: Dave Allen Subject: Who has KC opened for? Anyone know who KC opened for at the Fillmore East/West gigs in 1969? How about a list of all people/bands they've opened for? Just curious what kinds of audiences may have had the unexpected pleasure! - Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:14:43 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Messinger Subject: bootlegs Bootleg recordings have come a long ways, baby, with the advent of compact digital recording devices. Is it wrong to record someone's voice? Is it wrong to record someone's concert? Is it wrong to record someone's cd and resell it? If you want to dance you've got to pay the fiddler, but how "sound" are the laws governing rights to sounds, intellectual property, etc.? I L I G G I I PI R I C C A Nowadays, we are finding out the true value of a print. It is up to the artist to produce work that stands apart as original. An artist doesn't need protection - only innovation. Take this verbage for example. If someone were to sell it(ha ha)and not give me any money, I couldn't possibly be disappointed because I put it out here and made it accessible for further recording. Those with recorders may record. That is how the game of life is played. Of course no one wants to play in a rigged game, and there's the contradiction; what flows freely costs money? Bill Messinger ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1174 *********************************