Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1173 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1173 Sunday, 14 March 2004 Today's Topics: Tony Suominen's "Great Deceiver" Question Re: King Crimson on Old Grey Whistle Test Today's Music Ain't Got The Same Groon: KC to an Adolecent Guitarist Jack Green KC Bass Poll Rite of Spring Festival Guitar Craft? Eyes Wide Open DVD Somwhat off-topic redux Debussy Re: Warr Guitar Bill Bruford at Salisbury Festival, June 30 Re: broadcast KC live concert Re: Thumb Piano "a joyless exercise in ongoing violation, waste & futility" Re: TGD misprint Beat Club: Larks' Tongues In Aspic Re: warr guitar Warr Guitar Arthur Brown's Kingdom Come Thela Hun Ginjeet guitar tab ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send *all posts* to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com ** Posts intended for the newsletter should have a subject prefix of ETPOST ** Posts intended for an individual newsletter contributor should have a subject prefix of their ET 'Ticket Number', shown at ETxxxxx in their 'From:' line in the newsletter. To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:39:59 -0500 From: Michael.Russell Subject: Tony Suominen's "Great Deceiver" Question Tony-- The discontinuity between the jewel box spine copy and the discs on "The Great Deceiver" boxed set does seem to be a typo on the original run from 1992. I got the set as soon as it was released and noticed the same thing. --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:03:21 -0300 From: Asisthos - Gustavo Enriquez Subject: Re: King Crimson on Old Grey Whistle Test Would be great that this OGWT performance could be add, as a "special feature", within the next 80's KC DVD. For example, The Police=B4s "Every Breath You Take" DVD, includes two great early performances of the band in that TV show. By the way, does anyone know how to get the 80's KC and Summers-Fripp videoclips ? (I still remember the hilarious "Parade"). Regards, Gustavo. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:34:40 EST From: NCRA Subject: Today's Music Ain't Got The Same Groon: KC to an Adolecent Guitarist This being my first contribution to the ET newsletter, I must ask: Am I the youngest ETer? I was turned on to Fripp and friends at age 9, and am now 11. Adults hardly ever know who the hell I'm talking about, let alone my immature, mass-produced-pop-crap gobbling friends. I now am steadily building my KC CD colleKtion, although my father has substantial vinyl of Crimso. I think there is an unwritten "recipe" for modern groups and their images. In the boy band, you have the sensitive, innocent hottie, the ladies' man, the mature big-brother-type figure, the rapper, and the tattooed badass. (this formula works with Spice Girls-type groups, except "sensitive, innocent hottie" is replaced with "innocent girl, just turned eighteen and has a really naughty side", "ladies' man" is replaced with "whore", and "tattooed badass" is replaced with "dominatrix"[sorry, Scary Spice, but the leather kinda does that for you.]). On the other hand, you have KC, the ProjecKts, Giles, Giles and Fripp, Fripp and Eno, Discipline, Robert Fripp, Greg Lake, Ian McDonald, Peter Giles, Mike Giles, Peter Sinfield, Keith Tippett, Mel Collins, Gordon Haskell, Andy McCullough, Ian Wallace, Boz Burrell, Bill Bruford, John Wetton, Jamie Muir, David Cross, Adrian Belew, Tony Levin, Trey Gunn, and everyone even remotely associated with the Scarlet Monarch. There was a band that was a creature, a creature with legs and Robert Fripp as a heart, a band whose music you love. Crimson was a band that I actually loved the idea of. I wanted to make ambient music, I wanted to break into fractal projeckts, I wanted to be a Schizoid Man. And that's how it is. Thanks, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:29:38 -0600 From: Jeff Breis Subject: Jack Green Off the Crim subject, but Jack Green (a former Pretty Thing) had a = record called 'Humanesque' in 1980 that featured Ritchie Blackmore. = That's important. On the Crim subject, disc three from 'The Great Deceiver' that says disc = four on the binding is very rare, worth at least $400. Oh, wait, they all have that, it is not rare after all. (sorry, I am just trying to cause trouble and have fun at the same time) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:46:43 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Subject: KC Bass Poll Hi CrimFanatics, A new poll is posted on my King Crimson site http://community.webtv.net/thedukeofprunes/ALLTHINGSCRIM This month's poll, Who is your favorite bass player who has been in King Crimson? Is it Trey Gunn, Tony Levin, John Wetton, Boz Burrell, Gordon Haskell or Greg Lake? Send me an email and let me know. Anyone who is a KC fan may participate. Thanks to all who participated in the last poll. Cheers, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:33:05 +0100 From: Chad Forcier Subject: Rite of Spring Festival Just want to give a heads up on a prog festival in Pheonixville, PA just outside of Philadelphia called the "Rite of Spring Festival". The festival takes place on April 24th and 25th, 2004 and features 8 prog bands. Please check out the website if inter www.rosfest.com -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:33:21 EST From: NCRA Subject: Guitar Craft? Hello, its me again. I've been checking out archives of yore and postings by RF himself. Maybe I am an uneducated, unDisciplined, stupid little boy, but... uhhhhhh, what's "guitar craft"? All things Frippian and Crimsonoid delight me. If there is anything else pertaining to the Scarlet Monarch that you think a preteen may not know, please tell me. Joe "Below Average" Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:35:50 -0000 From: Iain Kitt Subject: Eyes Wide Open DVD I've just bought a copy of the 'Eyes Wide open' DVD. However like my = copy of the earlier 'Deja VROOM' it only plays in black and white on my DVD = player (in colour on my computer). I live and bought it in the UK but my DVD = player is supposed to be multi-region. Any suggestions as to how I can get a = colour picture please? Replies direct to me. (Apologies if this question has = been asked and answered before but I couldn't see anything in the FAQ about = this topic) Iain Kitt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:37:30 -0800 From: Munsey Subject: Somwhat off-topic redux Resending w/ new rules Yo again -- Hmm, seems that I forgot to mention that the lyrics of PFM's Photos of = Ghosts are accredited to Sinfield + several songs produced by Pete = Sinfield. The first song -- River of Life -- would be right at home on = any early KC recording, almost too much at home. Jeez, if George = Harrison got sued for ripping off He's So Fine.... Nonetheless very = enjoyable. jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:39:41 +0800 From: Errol Tout Subject: Debussy In a recent posting of RF's diary he discusses his pleasure, interest, admiration for Debussy. There is also a question of where it [the music] came from [as I read the posting anyway]. At the risk of offering something that RF may be aware of [and probably is], Howat, Roy. 1983, "Debussy In Proportion - A Musical Analysis" Cambridge University Press. Discusses this [i.e. where the music comes from] in detail. It mentions proportional structure and the Golden Section, amongst many other things. Best wishes to all Errol H. Tout ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:03:58 -0700 From: Nick Bennett Subject: Re: Warr Guitar Bryce Sutherland asked: > Well, is Trey Gunn's Warr guitar just a Chapman Stick but with a body? No, although both can be played using many of the same techniques. Warr Guitars are made by a guy in California named Mark Warr, with whom Trey Gunn collaborated on some of the early Warr Guitar models, as well as the more recent Trey Gun Signature Series. (Trey's initial collaboration and endorsement was sufficient to get him named in a lawsuit filed by Stick Enterprises against Warr Guitars and key individuals; Trey's name was dropped from the suit, and eventually the suit itself was withdrawn by Stick Enterprises. Neither side won anything out of the suit, but it took its toll on all involved.) The tones of the Stick and Warr instruments are actually quite different - partly from the different approach to woods, body, and neck styles, but also to differences in pickups, setup, bridge and nut design, etc. In addition to the tapping techniques employed on both instruments, the Warr guitar is designed to be playable using strumming and picking techniques (though those with bass and guitar backgrounds will generally need to adjust their technique a bit before applying them to the Warr); it also uses a more traditional-style guitar strap (though most Warr players also use quick-release strap locks, and/or a Slider Strap, to handle the heavier instrument), to facilitate playing at different angles, in addition to the near-vertical orientation that is also used by Stick players. (Of course, you can find Stick players who have successfully adapted their strumming and picking techniques to that instrument right from the start; also, relatively recently, Stick Enterprises collaborated with Ned Steinberger on the NS/Stick, which is designed for these and other possibilities.) Warr guitars also have slightly wider string spacing and wider necks than Stick models with the same numbers of strings, and Warr guitars with 8 or fewer strings usually have radiused fingerboards (instead of the flat fingerboards employed on all Stick models and the 9+ string Warr models). The additional construction and finishing requirements dictated by the Warr guitars' design tend to make those instruments more expensive than Stick models (though Warr also has a very reasonably priced entry-level model, sold through its Austin Douglas Guitars operation); on the other hand, because Warr Guitars makes far fewer instruments than Stick Enteprises, Warr tends to be fairly open to doing pretty extreme customizations. For example, some custom Warr guitars have been made with 15 or 16 strings (they used to have a photo of one on their site which had three sets of strings: 6 melody strings, 6 fretted bass strings, and 3 fretless bass strings right in the middle), and others (including my most recent purchase from them, almost two years ago) with 7 or fewer strings; standard models include 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 14-string models. (Stick Enterprises used to make a 7-string model, but their current model line-up includes 8, 10, and 12-string models only.) Both instruments are fun (and sometimes infuriating) to play, and - in the hands of talented musicians - capable of amazing music. (FWIW: I have owned four Warr guitars, and still own two, along with a Stick SB7; my main music collaborator plays a variety of instruments, including a Grand Stick, for which he traded in an older 10-string Stick that he bought used. We've used one or more of those instruments on all of our joint recording projects; on the second album we worked on together, we actually used three different Warr Guitars, and two different Sticks.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:10:26 -0800 (PST) From: Gerard York Subject: Bill Bruford at Salisbury Festival, June 30 I am planning to take my first trip ever to the UK the last week of May. I am renting a little flat in Chelsea for a week and plan to catch Ian Hunter and Mick Ralphs at the Astoria 5/28 in London. Also, I see Bill Bruford is playing the Salisbury Festival June 30 -- I would love to coordinate with an ET Members going there from London and would be delighted to meet some of you. Gerry York Tallahassee, Florida Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 08:43:42 +0100 From: Maurice Vergeer Subject: Re: broadcast KC live concert Dario, The way it's posted on the website, it'll probably be a radio broadcast only. Indeed, because Dutch seems to be a difficult language for non-Dutch, I'll check it the week before the broadcast and see whether there are some changes. I'll try not to forget to post a reminder here. Best wishes Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:07:02 -0000 From: daniel chinn Subject: Re: Re: Thumb Piano At 07:04 PM 2/21/04 GMT, Reid wrote: > >Does anyone know what type of thumb/toy piano Jamie Muir uses for the >beginning of "Larks' Tongues in Aspic Pt. 1"? Any info would help. and Gary Davis replied on Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:20:03 -0500 > > Actually a 'thumb piano' is not a toy piano, but an African instrument > sometimes referred to as a Kalimba. The small half spherical instrument is > held in the palms of both hands with the thumbs used to pluck the metal tines. and buzz Fenner added on Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:41:13 > > The answer would be a celeste, which indeed looks like a tiny piano and I > think is a member of the percussion family. That's definitely not a celeste being played there - celestes sound like tiny bells played with a harpsichord-styled intonation (celestes have no dynamics pedals, as far as I know). Fripp plays a few notes on celeste during Cadence And Cascade from In The Wake Of Poseidon - you can hear the difference. The sound of Jamie's cycling pattern is definitely that of an African thumb piano (which is classified as an ideophone - part of the percussion family). It's more of a short, abbreviated "plunk" nouise - though no less lovely. I actually own a Zimbabwean thumb piano called a mbira, which is very similar to a kalimba. To build on Gary's description - thumb pianos generally consist of metal tines (as pluckable keys) attached to a flat soundboard and a round resonating chamber (usually a gourd of some kind). My mbira doesn't have the gourd, but as it was a tourist purchase rather than something obtained from a world-instrument shop, that's not surprising. It also features several metal Coke bottle caps nailed loosely to the top as rattles which resonate with the vibration of the keys (at the time I visited Zimbabwe, there were old fashioned glass Coke bottles everywhere, continually refilled and recycled from the ever-present Coke machines). It still sounds good without the resonator, but it's a bit like the difference between an upright school piano and a concert grand. There are three sets of keys on my instrument (set in two manuals or rows) which I was told represent "men's voices" (the low row of bass notes), "young men's voices" (left half of the high row, in the alto range) and "women's voices" (right half of the top row, soprano/treble range). The keys are slightly spoon-shaped and are not tuned to the tempered scale - I could probably change that by sliding them back and forth under the securing bar to change their vibrating length, but don't particularly want to. The mbira has its own particular natural pitch and is very calming to play. A couple of handy links are http://www.mbira.org/ and http://www.acslink.aone.net.au/christo/inrec001/inr00012.htm. From the former, I've copied the following: "Many different mbira tunings are used, according to personal preference. The only requirement is that two instruments played together should generally agree in tuning. If the same sequence of keys is played, the music is considered to be the same mbira piece, even if played on instruments tuned with completely different intervals. For example, the gandanga (outlaw) tuning, also known as mavembe (people with speech defects) tuning, has a different interval relationship between keys than the more common nyamaropa tuning. The pitch of an mbira is also a matter of personal preference, ranging from high to very deep. Each instrument has a range of three octaves, or slightly more. Although the metal keys were originally smelted directly from rock containing iron ore, now they may be made from sofa springs, bicycle spokes, car seat springs, and other recycled steel materials. Either metal beads strung on a wire, or bottle tops or shells mounted on a metal plate, are placed on the lower portion of the mbira soundboard to add a buzz which varies from a soft hiss to a tambourine-like sound. Bottle tops or shells are also mounted on the resonator gourd to increase the buzz. The buzz is considered an essential part of the mbira sound, required to clear the mind of thoughts and worries so that the mbira music can fill the consciousness of the performers and listeners. The buzz adds depth and context to the clear tones of the mbira keys, and may be heard as whispering voices, singing, tapping, knocking, wind or rain." I also found this next paragraph interesting in the light of King Crimson's subsequent musical development. I wonder if Fripp got any ideas from listening to this instrument? "A Shona mbira piece consists of a basic cyclical pattern which includes numerous intertwined melodies, often with contrasting rhythms. The extensive possibilities for rhythmic and melodic variation render each performance unique. When two mbiras are played together, the interlocking parts result in rich polyphony and polyrhythms." Besides kalimbas and mbiras, other names and variants of thumb pianos are called kisanjis, mucapatas, sansas and sanzas. The marimbas and marimbulas (more familiar to Westerners) are also related instruments. Jamie also plays a thumb piano on the Giles/Muir/Cunningham album Ghost Dance. Dann Buzz Gary ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:30:34 +0100 From: Mats Carlsson Subject: "a joyless exercise in ongoing violation, waste & futility" "a joyless exercise in ongoing violation, waste & futility" Read some lines in Fripps diary the other day and often it's joyable reading, sometimes not. It was from Friday 27th. February, 2004 and discussed the possibility of a future tour in South America. Among the arguments for not going Fripp discussed his past relationship to fans who wasn't satisfied with what they've been given. The ET-readers pretty much know that debate for ages so it's no point in re-capitulate that. As a fan in a remote part of Europe (Sweden) it was sad to read that Fripp considered the European tour to be a "a joyless exercise in ongoing violation, waste & futility; America & Canada were only hard; Mexico City was a joy." I saw them last year for the second time in my life, the first on was in 1982, and I considered it great. It's sad to read that Fripp feels that way. It's a like a one way love story. Absent lover! Since Britain is embargoed by KC you get some kind of shiver in you spine that Europe might be next. I fully understand that if something isn't joyable you shouldn't do it. The life is too short for that. But I can't help wondering what's requested from us, except getting rid of the photo flashes. After reading Fripps review of the concert I attended I wondered whether we've been at the same place. I don't really analyse my roll as a part of an audience. Some peace of art I like others not and I obviously are very fond of the music by Fripp and KC. If it's a dynamic and extrovert event you hopefully can get some kind of communication. A collective event with social interaction makes it hard to predict any details. However most light weighted contemporary entertainment are so well planed that the audience are more or less replaceable. You could be in Timbuktu or Singapore. Anyway I simply go to the concert, exhibition or whatever and try to enjoy the happening, installation, concert and the people who are there. Hopefully it was one of the rare moments when you could feel the atmosphere but most of the time it was professionally practiced by the artist and the audience showed their gratitude and behaved decently. It's not a human right to have the privilege to watch and/or listen to your favourite artists but I would definitely like to see KC again if they happened to be in the neighbourhood. It's strange that in this new brave world it's regarded to bee a major difference between playing in different countries. Generally speaking people are quiet the same wherever you go and 500 people in an arena in Tokyo shouldn't be that much different from an audience in Scandinavia. As a fan and globetrotter I've been communicating with other fans for thirty years and I haven't found people any nicer in one part of the world than another. Some you get along with other not. So mr. Fripp. Let us know how a nice tour should be for us to get along. It' s not much I as a single fan can do but it's easier to prepare yourself if you know what's expected. Is it the arrangements, the audience or the arenas? How should these aspects change in order to make it more enjoyable? Has Fripp tried to discuss these issues with the people at ET or some other forum? Fripp said on the TPTB-tourbox that the tours with G3 and Tool were very enjoyable. What distinguished them from the last KC European tour? Is it possible for the fans in Europe who reads this and have high regards of Fripp as "the" n:o. one musician in modern music to make an effort improve the relationship with Fripp and hopefully get a dialogue with him? The task couldn't be overwhelming. We are not trying to achieve peace on earth only try to keep the music playing in our part of the world. Mats (known as Captain Bligh) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:00:31 -0500 From: vincent e daniel Subject: Re: TGD misprint Greetings Crim, In ET 1172 Tony Suominen wrote : "On disc three(I think, the green sleeve anyway) it says "disc three" on the front sleeve, and also "disc three" on the back cover. But then, on the heads of the case, what are the same piece of paper as the back cover, but only folded as the both "heads" of the jewel case, which only says the name of the artist and the album in most cases, says "discs four". so It says disc three and four on the same sleeve... weird. Also on disc four, it says "four" on the back and "three" on the "heads".. vice versa compared to the other disc."regarding The Great Deceiver box set. I too have a copy printed that same way so it must be a misprint by the printer. Probably a mistake in layout and proofreading by the art dept . Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:51:08 -0500 From: David Fleiss Subject: Beat Club: Larks' Tongues In Aspic For anybody with broadband access to Usenet, somebody has posted a large (112 M) video of KC performing "Larks' Tongues In Aspic" on Beat Club. It's available at alt.binaries.mpeg.video.music David Fleiss ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:42:55 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Marshall Subject: Re: warr guitar Bryce wrote: >Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:04:24 +0000 (GMT) > >From: Bryce Sutherland >Subject: Warr guitar Maybe I can get an answer here... y'know the Chapman Stick? Well, is Trey Gunn's Warr guitar just a Chapman Stick but with a body? If not, can anyone give me details on it? Bryce ---- The Warr Guitar is a completely different instrument from a Stick. The only thing they share is a low action set-up primarily for tapping and some string muting. check out: http://www.warrguitars.com ----- Nick aka "Baby Hog" http://www.izap.com/~pinnacle therhythmex: AIM and Yahoo Messenger ID Alcohol and prostitution have robbed my people of their brains. Hosea 4:11 [NLT] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:38:34 EST From: MDJSocial Subject: Warr Guitar In a message dated 2/28/2004 8:50:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: Maybe I can get an answer here... y'know the Chapman Stick? Well, is Trey Gunn's Warr guitar just a Chapman Stick but with a body? If not, can anyone give me details on it? Bryce As a Chapman Stick player, I have always had that impression. I have never held a Warr -- to me, the instrument looks silly -- but Stick players who have say the Warr weighs much more than a Stick, and thus, does not balance well. Michael Jeter http://protect.org/ National Association to Protect Children America's First Political Lobby for Child Protection ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:55:42 EST From: GORTAY Subject: Arthur Brown's Kingdom Come In ET 1172 "Munsey" mentions the re-release of some Arthur Brown's Kingdom Come albums. If I recall correctly KIngdom Come guitarist Andy Dalby came from Derby (for non-UK readers, near Nottingham in the UK East Midlands) which, apart from being my home town, was also the home of John Wetton and Peter Hammill of VDGG. KIngdom Come = KC: King Crimson = KC. You think it's all a coincidence but if you ask me there are dark forces at work!!! Gordon Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:24:52 -0500 From: Scott Daubenspeck Subject: Thela Hun Ginjeet guitar tab I notice there's not tab for Crimson's much-discussed 'Thela Hun = Ginjeet', it's not too difficult melodically, just very hard to count in = precise time. I haven't indicated the timing because it's easier to = match the recording and not try to count it out yourself.=20 Intro Guitar 1 E -------------------------- B -------------------------- G --4-p-2---2--------------- D --------4-----4-p-2-p-0--- A -------------------------- E ------------------------2- That pattern sound good, mess around with it to your liking. Intro Guitar 2 E --2-- B --2-- G --3-- D --4-- A --4-- E --2-- The chord Belew's playing has something to do with F#, but he's muting = it too much for me to tell exactly what all's in there. If you use the = F#maj it sounds acceptable. Continue the pattern through the "Thela Hun Ginjeet" repetitive part, = then when it gets to "Qua Tari mei..." switch the pattern up to A: E -------------------------- B -------------------------- G --7-p-5---7--------------- D --------5-----7-p-5-p-x--- A -------------------------- E ------------------------5- And guitar two switches up to an Amaj chord too. What follows is a lot of Belew tricks and madness that I can't tab out. = It's all in F# during the spoken story, then go back to the patterns = above when the chorus returns. --- Scott Daubenspeck ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1173 *********************************