Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1170 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1170 Tuesday, 10 February 2004 Today's Topics: slagging Trey Gunn are you kidding ? CDs Unavailable on DGM A Blessing Of Tears Time/Shift: Prog Rock Redux The Royal Trey Gunn understands music quite well THIS FRIPP With Women on Vox/Bass versus Touch Guitar Fergus Hall Re: PM's drumming, Gunn's bassing Re: Crimson without Fripp? KCCC CD's for sale mix tapes Re: Bj=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=rk & Fripp Re: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn Re: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn Re: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:11:17 +0800 From: Errol Tout Subject: slagging Trey Gunn Mr. Richards harsh comments regarding TG in the last elephant talk seem to me to be placed to draw a reaction, to stir the pot. To post such bitchy comments in this forum will probably do more, as TG is highly respected amongst the readership. Does Mr. Richards have some kind of death wish? If he wants a savage beating this is a pretty good way to go about it. Errol H. Tout ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:13:33 -0800 From: "kevin hay" Subject: are you kidding ? The guy cutting Trey Gunn's playing might want to take some piano lessons to improve his hearing below middle 'c'-a lot of people have this problem of cognition in music-i.e.they don't integrate root motion as oposed to bass motion. also--i think anyone who wants to hear some classical music that sounds like crimson should check out Peter Sculthorpe's IrkandaIV (on chandos 10063)-It sound like "the battle of glass tears" devoloped,and the rest of the cd is great to,but I like Trey Gunn so there is a chanch that I don't know what I'm hearing----Kevin hay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:07:39 +0000 From: Josh D Voyce Subject: CDs Unavailable on DGM After carefully reading through ET's "Releases" page, I was about to make my first order from DGM when I noticed that Berkeley '82, The Gates of Paradise, and November Suite are no longer on the website. What's the deal? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:14:12 +0200 From: "Trevor Stokes" Subject: A Blessing Of Tears Any idea how I can get this cd. It seems to be deleted everywhere. Thanks Trevor Stokes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:40:23 -0000 From: "Steve Goodman" Subject: Time/Shift: Prog Rock Redux meglos at btinternet dot com put forth in #1169: 1) It's not a series. The hersute Radio Times listed it as a series of three shows, when it was only one. Go figure. 2) Rock Family Trees was a repeat from 4-5 years ago. Before my arrival in the UK. This stuff is most likely less marketed in the US than EastEnders, whose plug BBC-America has been ignorantly pulling out for some time now (much to the consternation of apparent legions of EE fans in the US). 3) If anyone needs anger management, it's you. Please don't refer to Stuart Maconie, Charles Shaar Murray and John Peel as wankers without expecting some people reading this list to take offence. My opinion of the above has-beens does not require anyone's validation to exist. 4) Blairn. My mind's blairn. :-) Amazing, that one. The sheer arrogance British 'journalists' display when given a podium of their own is, at this point, worse than predictable. And most likely also one of the big reasons why Mr Fripp and KC don't play the UK. Thanks, Mr. Peel and Co!. Steve Goodman * EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:46:29 EST From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: The Royal In ET 1169 Mr Tea mentions a Nick Drake track being played in an ITV programme called "The Royal" and suggests that ETers keep watch in case a KC track slips on. "The Royal" is a spin off from the "Heartbeat" series and there have been have at least two occasions when 'ITCOKC' has been featured on this programme. Not that I actually watch it of course! As with every one else I just coincidentally happen to be in the room when it comes on!!!!! Gordon Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:05:53 -0800 (PST) From: rone at ennui dot org (rone) Subject: Trey Gunn understands music quite well > From: "Joe Richards" Fair warning: i am a big Trey Gunn fan. I've seen the TGB live twice and i own all of his albums (that i can get my hands on, anyway). > I do not think Trey Gunn has many of the tools that you would look for > in a bassist. Sure he can play fast licks but when it comes to anchoring > a sound, building tension and release, providing a harmonic foundation > and melodic movement Gunn seems to be lacking. I felt that Gunn's remark > that he did not like to repeat himself to be telling. A bassist should > like to repeat himself and should know how to develop a theme. Even in > simple music the bass part is often the real soul of a piece. Let me say that i share your opinion regarding what a bassist should provide to a band. However, i appreciate the fact that the Double Duo offered a very well-delivered counterpoint to my opinion. I wonder if you saw KC during the TPTB tour, when Trey played two Warr guitars at the same time. His performance was flawless and above reproach, both above and below middle C. > I do not believe that this is entirely Gunn's fault. I think that he is > actually a guitarist (look at his session work) who took up the bass > parts because King Crimson did not need a third guitarist. He is not currently a guitarist. He has been using tapping instruments (Stick and Warr guitar) for at least the last 13 years. In fact, the session work that he made that brought him to my attention was on John Paul Jones' "Zooma", and on that he played a touch guitar. > Although I am not a musician I would imagine that if King Crimson needed > a clarinet player and I were offered the job that I would begin clarinet > lessons immediately. For his part, Gunn should have studied music theory > from the viewpoint of the bass clef. Your arrogance here is immense. How do you know, exactly, what Gunn hasn't studied? He does happen to have a degree in composition from the University of Oregon, you know. I imagine that he knows a little bit about the bass clef, although it's possible he might have to refer from his old school notes. > As two illustrations of what I mean I offer two examples. First, listen > to Wetton's bass playing on Fracture. Although at times it is repetitive > and simple it is almost always essential to the piece. If you were to > remove almost any bass part the piece would collapse. If you mixed Gunn > out of many pieces, would anyone notice? This is a foolish and moot comparison. If you can't hear Gunn in the pieces, you aren't trying. > Second, listen to Gunn solo recordings like "1000 Years" or "The Third > Star". They are vast insipid wastelands without any memorable melodies > and textures that are unemotional and uninteresting. They sound like > little more than amateur recordings by someone trying to imitate King > Crimson. If there is a single interesting musical idea on those > recordings I have yet to find it. While Fripp and Belew have done > substantial solo recordings, so far all we have heard from Trey Gunn is > quickly forgotten improvisational noodling. You are almost inconceivably wrong. Yes, "1000 Years" is an early recording, but it is by no means insipid and unemotional. If you'd criticized his singing, i could not fault you for it. I'll even grant you that "Kuma", off "The Third Star", borrows obviously from "Discipline". But the rest of his work shares little more than the occasional 7/8 rhythm with King Crimson. > I hope my remarks above do not sound too ungracious because I probably > own every King Crimson recording ever made and I feel tremendous > gratitude towards Mr. Fripp and Mr. Belew for giving some wonderful music > to the world. This is a disingenuous apology. You have impugned Trey's musical ability and acumen carelessly; he is a professional musician, and you... well, who the hell are you? Stick to Wetton-era KC if you must, but next time keep your calumny to yourself. > [ It is not often that ET publishes such cruel and unpleasant remarks > about a musician, and I thought seriously about moderating out this post, > but decided to publish it, if nothing else but to honour the spirit (if I > may paraphrase) of "words from the clueless, posted from the basement". I > hope my remarks above do not sound too ungracious. --Toby ] Well, you've given me some sport, so it can't be all bad. rone -- Light stupidity decays into heavy stupidity. This violates energy conservation, but that's stupidity for you. - Rich Holmes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:25:23 -0500 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: THIS FRIPP With Women on Vox/Bass versus Touch Guitar PARLIAMENT OF PACHYDERMS: The excellent vox contributed by MS. DANIELLE DAX to MINOR MAN for THE LEAGUE OF GENTLEMEN LP made me wonder why it was that the remainder of the record was not similarly enhanced, whether by MS. DAX herself, or by MS. SARA LEE, herself. I had never before heard of CHEIKHA REMITTI, so I was pleased to learn of more instances of THIS FRIPPs work that I have yet to audit/obtain. Reading MS. ANNA R. BURZYNSKAS description of MS. DEBORAH HARRYS very disputable singing ability that made him sceptical to female vocalists gave me pause, for it was the first time that I had read of anyone criticising her work, aside from RAPTURE, which has been attacked many times because MS. HARRY is a Caucasian blonde female, rather than an Afro-American male/female. I would not be averse to collaboration between THIS FRIPP, CAPTAIN BRIAN ENO & BJORK, either, but MS. DIAMANDA GALAS would pump my nads even harder, not least because it would mean the return of Piano & Organ to KING CRIMSON. THE SPORTING LIFE was the first album of hers I ever purchased, & it made me very happy, indeed. I shall be most happy to obtain the remainder of her catalogue when I am a bit more flush. ;) It comes as no surprise to me that THE GUNNMAN works often with female singers, particularly given the excellent results obtained on his 1000 YEARS album. As for NIGHTMARES IN RED being dismissed as terrible by JONATHAN PINNOCK, it is my own contention that those of us who enjoy The Cheerful Insanity of GILES, GILES & FRIPP & THE BRONDESBURY TAPES (1968) will find much to enjoy in the song & its B-side, KICK THE DONKEY. I am well pleased to read that MASTER BRYCE SUTHERLAND, @ 17 years of age, is being well served by the music of KING CRIMSON & THIS FRIPP. 8) ALAN CRUMLINS submits that it is perfectly possible to have a KING CRIMSON without THIS FRIPP, but asks who would have the guts/ego to try it? It could bqe said in response to that query that both U.K & 21st CENTURY SCHIZOID BAND are unique responses to that very situation. When I read JOE RICHARDSS words criticising THE GUNNMANS ability to fulfill the role of Bassist within KING CRIMSON, I was stunned, not because I was offended by what he had written, for I was not. Rather, I was impressed that someone had not only taken the time to deconstruct the role which THE GUNNMAN had been chosen by THIS FRIPP to fill within the group. I was even more impressed that MR. RICHARDS had the courage to write what he did in ELEPHANT TALK when he knew that he would either be censored or come under fire from flame artists if his words were not censored. It is not the first time that I have heard those criticisms of THE GUNNMAN in connection with his work in KING CRIMSON, so I was not shocked, any more than I would have been shocked if someone had written that they found THIS FRIPP to be pretentious & arrogant. It is possible for me to understand how & why someone might think & feel that way without my sharing their assessment. TOBY, thank you for not moderating out JOE RICHARDSs dissenting viewpoint. I know that your job is not an easy 1, but I appreciate your allowing us to think for ourselves about this. Be seeing you! MALCOLM XERXES Kit Drums/Percussives ANOTHER 1000 MILES http://www.malcolmxerxes.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:39:46 -0600 From: "Jeff Breis" Subject: Fergus Hall Fergus Hall also rendered the paintings on 'The Compact King Crimson' compilation record. And, yeah, what is he doing now? There must be more of his work out there for us to enjoy someplace. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:22:18 -0600 From: John Michael Beard Subject: Re: PM's drumming, Gunn's bassing At 08:19 AM 2/1/04 +0000, Joe Richards wrote: >As two illustrations of what I mean I offer two examples. First, listen to >Wetton's bass playing on Fracture. Although at times it is repetitive and >simple it is almost always essential to the piece. If you were to remove >almost any bass part the piece would collapse. If you mixed Gunn out of >many pieces, would anyone notice? Joe has some valid points, but far harsher an assessment than mine. I agree that he may have been less than happy moving back to the bass role, but I thought he did it well, especially on TPTB. As for the slamming of PM, all this "arm/wrist" nonsense, I feel it's wildly off the mark. Yes he's different from Bruford, yes I miss Bruford, but Pat has been a wonderful replacement, and I would say a far better fit to the new material. I think all this criticism of "replacement" musiscians, unjustified in my opinion, is an understandable sense of loss for the familiar. While the familiar in KC has always been fantastic, the familiar has never been what KC's about. John Michael Beard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:06:48 -0600 From: John Michael Beard Subject: Re: Crimson without Fripp? At 08:19 AM 2/1/04 +0000, you wrote: >Remember that last Genesis LP with whats >his name replacing Phil Collins? For that matter, remember that last Genesis album with whats his name replacing Peter Gabriel? John Michael Beard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:34:52 -0500 From: "Fritz Kiffmeyer" Subject: KCCC CD's for sale I have several KCCC discs for sale. Email me offline. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:48:16 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: mix tapes I've enjoyed reading the contents of everyone's mix tapes, particularly this one: >Side 1 1. Fracture (Starless & Bible Black) 2. Red (Red) 3. Dig Me (Three Of A Perfect Pair) 4. Level 5 (The Power To Believe) 5. Starless (Red) 6. RF Exposure Medley: Preface, NY3, Postscript, Haaden Two >Side 2 1. VROOOM VROOOM (THRAK) 2. Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part IV) (Happy EP) 3. ELP - Toccata (Brain Salad Surgery) 4. Dangerous Curves (The Power To Believe) 5. The Power To Believe IV: Coda (The Power To Believe) because it was made by a young fan: >Bryce (17-year-old King Crimson fan from Scotland) You have tremendous taste, sir. Are you a musician? - S. np: Queens of the Stone Age, "I was a teenage hand model" scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:01:08 +0100 From: Kalle Subject: Re: Bj=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=rk & Fripp Jorg wrote: > Regarding this remark from Mats, this is a quote from Bjork, taken out > of the booklet of her "live box" (talking about her earlier favorite > musicians): "If there was a guitarist, it was Robert Fripp. That was > more my department". :o) Somehow, this quote does not surprise me very much - Bjork tends to have impeccable taste. :) And I know for certain I read Robert himself mention Bjork in his diary. The comment was on the lines of Bjork being in his opinion one of the only truly original artist to emerge in the (then) last ten years. The posting was from 2000 or 2001 if memory serves me right. Regarding Robert not working with with enough (?) women I agree, but I think it is more an expression of the general gender-imbalance in music business. Also, both Robert and Trey (on Chapman stick) played on a Toni Childs album that I think was called "The Woman's Boat". It was ages since I listened to it so I don't remember much about it, but I do know Peter Gabriel also sang on one track (it was recorded at RealWorld). And lastly... Joe Richards wrote: > A bassist should like to repeat himself and should know how to develop a > theme. Even in simple music the bass part is often the real soul of a piece. On the face of which mountain are these rules written in stone, please? I'm about to start a band, so I don't want to get anything wrong. I also take offense from being included into the collective group of "listeners", and having conclusions being drawn about some of the most fundamental aspects of my self (here, how I listen to music), without being asked or consulted. Your opinions on the musicianship of Trey Gunn are yours to have, but I certainly disagree with them. To my ears Trey is continually amazing. Yours, Karl Boman -- : Karl Boman : karl dot boman at home dot se : http://kboman.digitaldistractions.se/ : A man said to the universe: "Sir, I exist!" : "However", replied the Universe, "The fact : has not created in me a sense of obligation". : - Stephen Crane, 1871-1900 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:57:08 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Marshall Subject: Re: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn > > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:49:38 -0500 > From: "Joe Richards" > Subject: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn > > While most people I have encountered have lamented the apparent departure of > Trey Gunn I have welcomed it. > > I do not think Trey Gunn has many of the tools that you would look for in a > bassist. Sure he can play fast licks but when it comes to anchoring a > sound, building tension and release, providing a harmonic foundation and > melodic movement Gunn seems to be lacking. I felt that Gunn's remark that > he did not like to repeat himself to be telling. A bassist should like to > repeat himself and should know how to develop a theme. Even in simple music > the bass part is often the real soul of a piece. So in what amount of room should a bassist provide "melodic movement" while repeating themselves? This tool of repetition in music is called an ostinato. Even then an ostinato is not usually static. You move a note here and there make small alterations. Trey seems to have this down quite well. The Power To Believe disc is full of such ostinatos in the bass register. How do you develop a theme if your just repeating it? Trey was speaking about not going over the same material over and over. He would rather play new songs then play old ones. If you apply the statement to his playing of parts it sounds to me like he is trying to develop the line he is playing. > In the most recent King Crimson incarnation there was so much missing > from the songs because the bass chair was not fully occupied. I remember > Fripp once writing that he was frustrated because he would look to > Bruford to get some clue as to the rhythmic direction of a piece. So too > do listeners look to the bassist for an idea of the harmonic and melodic > direction of a piece. I could not escape the impression that Mr. Gunn > was often clueless as to what was actually going on and he created the > impression of a deer in the headlights. I do not hear anything missing in the bass department in the current KC. Fripps issues with Bruford aside, it is obvious the bass register is well handled by Trey. There is no doubt to my ear that Trey has it all under control. Trey has a good grasp of the technical side of music, I highly doubt he was clueless. > I do not believe that this is entirely Gunn's fault. I think that he is > actually a guitarist (look at his session work) who took up the bass > parts because King Crimson did not need a third guitarist. Although I am > not a musician I would imagine that if King Crimson needed a clarinet > player and I were offered the job that I would begin clarinet lessons > immediately. For his part, Gunn should have studied music theory from > the viewpoint of the bass clef. Who knows how much input the others had in what Trey plays outside of "Yeah, thats great, do that", or "Nah, Try something else". If you look at Treys biography on his own page: http://www.treygunn.com/word/index.html you will see he has played a variety of instruments. Listed among them is electric bass and keyboards. Instruments that handle the bass clef. I do recall a progression [don't have any links or references at hand] that went something like this: Classical piano around 7 or so, bass and guitar in the teens and early 20s, including a time as a Crafty, and then touch guitar in the mid 20s to present. He has always had some connection to the bass clef. > As two illustrations of what I mean I offer two examples. First, listen > to Wetton's bass playing on Fracture. Although at times it is repetitive > and simple it is almost always essential to the piece. If you were to > remove almost any bass part the piece would collapse. If you mixed Gunn > out of many pieces, would anyone notice? If you removed/mixed out Treys parts the entire foundation [the bass] of songs like Elektrik, The Construction of Light, Frying Pan, Oyster Soup Kitchen Floor Wax Museum would be thin and highly noticable. > Second, listen to Gunn solo recordings like "1000 Years" or "The Third >Star". They are vast insipid wastelands without any memorable melodies >and textures that are unemotional and uninteresting. They sound like >little more than amateur recordings by someone trying to imitate King >Crimson. If there is a single interesting musical idea on those >recordings I have yet to find it. While Fripp and Belew have done >substantial solo recordings, so far all we have heard from Trey Gunn is >quickly forgotten improvisational noodling. I have listened to those recordings. I come away with the exact opposite of yours. They are my favorite collections of music. Must add Joy of Molybednum and Live Encounter. I can hum just about all the parts and can hum the solo [primarily done in the bass register by the way] from Kuma by heart. They stick in my head. If this "improvisational noodling" is how Trey works, he and his band mates do a good job of playing it live and hope he keeps it coming. These recordings contain some of the coolest [IMO] bass lines recorded. Listening to "Take This Wish" from 1000 years right now. The bass is playing a highly melodic part that is the base of the song. "Killing for London" is on now. Another bass ostinato anchored piece. The thing that drew me to Treys material in the first part is the fact that it's a total package. He appears to be concerned with the whole piece. Not just making a cool bass line, lead solo. It's the whole piece and how it fits together. This is a big sign of a mature composer and musician, and it reflects in his recordings. I only have one of Fripps solo recordings, none of Belews. I have all of Treys from 1000 Years to the present. This is most likely a represention of my own taste in regard to "substantial recordings". > I hope my remarks above do not sound too ungracious because I probably own > every King Crimson recording ever made and I feel tremendous gratitude > towards Mr. Fripp and Mr. Belew for giving some wonderful music to the > world. In fact, if there had never been a Robert Fripp the world would have > been a much sorrier place and there are not many people that I would say > that about. But I believe that before King Crimson can ever be mentioned > credibly in the same breath with Bartok (and others) they must address the > issues below middle C that have been ignored for too long. Your comments do sound ungracious. They are mostly personal opinion with very little basis in fact. Why the desire to attack a great musician [possibly a great guy, don't know him personally] who has added a new dimension to KC? I'm glad Trey has brought so much great music into the world on his own and as a part of KC. There is nothing lacking below middle C now [never mind the fact that even guitars go below middle C], so the issues you present are your own. I don't hear any problems. Good day, ----- Nick aka "Baby Hog" http://www.izap.com/~pinnacle therhythmex: AIM and Yahoo Messenger ID Alcohol and prostitution have robbed my people of their brains. Hosea 4:11 [NLT] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:01:43 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Marshall Subject: Re: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn Addendum to my other post on the subject. > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:49:38 -0500 > From: "Joe Richards" > Subject: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn > I do not believe that this is entirely Gunn's fault. I think that he is > actually a guitarist (look at his session work) who took up the bass > parts because King Crimson did not need a third guitarist. Although I am > not a musician I would imagine that if King Crimson needed a clarinet > player and I were offered the job that I would begin clarinet lessons > immediately. For his part, Gunn should have studied music theory from > the viewpoint of the bass clef. If you look at Treys available recorded session work it is pretty much touch guitar. On Joy of Molybedum he added some mellotron, theremin, shortwave [radio?] and smokey guitar. In recent times I have seen pics with a Godin Glissentar. He played it on the last Trey Gunn Band Tour on a song that I never heard before. Could you point out some of the sessions where he played something else? Good day, ----- Nick aka "Baby Hog" http://www.izap.com/~pinnacle therhythmex: AIM and Yahoo Messenger ID Alcohol and prostitution have robbed my people of their brains. Hosea 4:11 [NLT] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:31:30 -0600 From: Paul MacFarlane Subject: Re: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn Wow. A rock band plays something you never heard before such as 20th Century Schizoid Man's ending motif. The band goes forward and plays something you've never heard before such as Larks Tongues in Aspic's angular, atonal cut and thrust. The band goes forward and plays something you've never heard before like Frame By Frame's three-rhythms-at-once pop song. The band goes forward and plays something you've never heard before like the processed vocalizations and sweet ending patterns of The Deception of the Thrush. The band goes forward and gleefully tinkers with and tosses aside all notions of what a song is supposed to sound like from 1968 to 2004 and there are people who clench their minds into a stagnant pool of rules and say "no fair." They say a guitar has to go bwang bwang and a drum has to go boom thump palop and a bass is supposed to go doom ba doom ba boom? I think that the post I am responding to has justified the existence of Crimson better than any I've read in ages. Boxes. Limitations. Habits. Expectations. Then there's King Crimson. Please lads, make your next CD make we wonder what happened to all the instruments and voice, too. ; ) Paul MacFarlane Co-Owner/Managing Director t h e 2 . 0 4 e x p e r i m e n t 415 North Tenth Street 3rd floor St. Louis, Missouri USA 63101 voice: 314 621.0220 fax: 314 421.5954 my personal wireless number: 314 398.1453 www.the1101experiment.org ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1170 *********************************