Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1169 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1169 Saturday, 31 January 2004 Today's Topics: Re: Lack of ability to communicate BI KYO RAN mix tapes.... what a coincidence! Re: Do Live KC Recordings With Gordon Haskell Exist? Re: kC mix CD's Nightmares in Red Re: Subject: artist for young persons guide Re: KC Mix CDs Rock Critics are musical illiterates/Primus & Crimson DVD review KC playlists Arm Drummers Enlightenment Nick Drake Sighting Bjork & Fripp wha/30 yr/stl KC "Mathematical" Time/Shift: Prog Rock Re: Arm Drumming Fripp wah; Haskell vocals Artist for Young Person's Guide production Re: Drummers... Re: BBC4 Time Watch Crimson Without Fripp? Emo/Mars Volta Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn Re: Drummer's: ALL ARM's? Re: Live Recordings With Gordon Haskell Bootleg recordings (Revisited) Help with "Eyes Widw Open" DVD ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:37:52 +0100 From: "Anna R. Burzynska" Subject: Re: Lack of ability to communicate > At last a small observation on one of the most male dominated industries on > earth, rock music. I can't recall that Fripp has collaborated with female > artists more than twice, The Roches and Toyah on Sundays All Over The World. Well, in Fripp's band The League of Gentlemen, there was a great female bass player - Sara Lee. You can also hear his guitar and frippertronics on albums by Cheikha Remitti (very surprising, but worth listening for sure). He also worked with Blondie - I wouldn't be surprised if it was Debbie Harry's very disputable singing ability that made him sceptical about female vocalists... But a bit of ambient-like Bjork-Fripp-Eno collaboration would be extremely nice... However, I think Diamanda Galas would be even a better choice. I am only afraid that these two ladies would not obey DISCIPLINE ;-)))) Regards, Anna P.S. By the way, Trey Gunn works with female singers quite often, with great effects. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:11:41 -0500 From: "Matthew K. Smith" Subject: BI KYO RAN Regarding the thread of Crimson sounding bands, the Japanese group BI KYO RAN sounds remarkably like LTiA, S&BB era stuff. I don't know off hand about the first CD by them availability, but the one I have recorded to tape was recorded in '82 and released on CD in '89 by King Records, Tokyo. One can probably find it thru Cuneiform. There is some wonderful stuff here, but it is undermined some by the reedy sounding Japanese vocals, which fortunately are not prevalent. Song titles include: Double, Cynthia, Psycho (pt II), Monologue, Warning. Matthew K. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:29:56 -0500 From: "David Kirkdorffer" Subject: mix tapes.... what a coincidence! Peter - I just read your note in Elephant-Talk about your mix tape. What a coincidence! Two months ago I made a mix tape of King Crimson tunes too. Ripping from The Beatles, et. al., and with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, I called it "1" -- as it pulls all the main-lead tracks from all the albums together and in order of release. Makes for a curious listen. Too much idle time on my hands right now... I know... :-) David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:06:26 +0100 From: s Subject: Re: Do Live KC Recordings With Gordon Haskell Exist? As there were never any Crimson live gigs with Haskell, it's rather impossible that any recordings of such events exist. siggy >My question for anyone out there in the Crimsoid universe who can answer >this for me: Does any live, recorded material exist from live performances >of King Crimson with Gordon Haskell on lead vocals? Were there any live >performances? Could fans expect to see/hear such material on future KING >CRIMSON CLUB releases or in any other form? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:13:16 -0600 From: "Nick Spannaus" Subject: Re: kC mix CD's I don't want to spam the place with meaningless lists, but I couldn't resist posting my two favorite kCrimso mix-tapes. Both are entirely LIVE. The first is the 73-74 lineup, the second is the 71-72 lineup.. Listed as "Track Title (Album Title)".. These are my "desert island" tapes.. I love em.. 1) The Savage (Mainz) 2) Dr Diamond (Mainz) 3) The Law of Maximum Distress (Great Deceiver) 4) Easy Money (Night Watch) 5) Lament (Night Watch) 6) Book of Saturday (Night Watch) 7) Fracture (Night Watch) 8) The Night Watch (Night Watch) 9) Exiles (Night Watch) 10) Atria (Mainz) 11) Great Deceiver (Great Deceiver) 12) A Journey to the Centre of the Cosmos (Great Deceiver) 13) King Crimson - Starless (Mainz) 1) Pictures of a City (Summit Studios) 2) The Letters (Plymouth) 3) Formentera Lady (Detroit) 4) The Sailors Tale (Plymouth) 5) Groon (Summit Studios) 6) 21st Century Schizoid Man (Plymouth) 7) Ladies of the Road (Plymouth) 8) In the Court of the Crimson King (Detroit) 9) Cadence and Cascade (Summit Studios) 10) Summit Going On (Summit Studios) 11) The Creator Has A Master Plan (Summit Studios) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:50:09 -0000 From: "Jonathan Pinnock" Subject: Nightmares in Red Well, there I was listening to dear old Brian Matthews on "Sounds of the Sixties" this morning, when what did he play but "Nightmares in Red" by The Brain? The Brain, as all of us should of course know, consisted of the Giles brothers in the days before they met Fripp. But, then, the clue's in the title of the song. If anyone out there's interested, you can probably still find the show on the BBC Radio 2 website. (BTW the song's terrible) Jon Pinnock www.jpassoc.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:51:27 -0000 From: "neil mcnaught" Subject: Re: Subject: artist for young persons guide "I don't own a copy of A Young Persons Guide to King Crimson but having seen pictures of it on this site I have been taken by the artwork used to adorn the cover. My question is who is the artist, what is his/her name." The artist was Fergus Hall, who also did the paintings for the Tarot cards used in Bond film 'Live and Let Die'. This Tarot set is now issued as 'The Tarot of the Witches'.Fergus Hall used to be represented by the Portal Gallery London, although a web search throws up precious little about him. I believe he also did a childs book called'Groundsel'. Where is he now? I wish I knew. His pictures are absolutely fantastic. Regards N ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:51:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Bryce Sutherland Subject: Re: KC Mix CDs Here's my mix tape, which I made out of songs that reflect my mental status and well-being (or lack thereof) that I call "The Cheerful Insanity Of Me": Side 1 1. Fracture (Starless & Bible Black) 2. Red (Red) 3. Dig Me (Three Of A Perfect Pair) 4. Level 5 (The Power To Believe) 5. Starless (Red) 6. RF Exposure Medley: Preface, NY3, Postscript, Haaden Two Side 2 1. VROOOM VROOOM (THRAK) 2. Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part IV) (Happy EP) 3. ELP - Toccata (Brain Salad Surgery) 4. Dangerous Curves (The Power To Believe) 5. The Power To Believe IV: Coda (The Power To Believe) I just wonder if there are any other like-minded people out there in the world. This is where I get my liking of King Crimson from: a lot of the time I find solice in the intensity of some of the tracks, as though it is a musical version of my mind. Perhaps this is where Robert Fripp gets his inspiration from, too. He is, after all, a curious character. Bryce (17-year-old King Crimson fan from Scotland) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:57:26 -0800 (PST) From: David Alston Subject: Rock Critics are musical illiterates/Primus & Crimson Perhaps the reason why Primus and early '80s Crimson sound similar is both of their use of similar chord voicings. A good example of these voicings would be the introduction of the song "Elephant Talk." These are voicings that could be considered 13th (maybe partial) or 7th voicings. Another few examples of the use of these voicings in strange intervals would be "Teen Town" by Weather Report and also the theme from the animated TV comedy "South Park." Crimson's use of such elements in the realm of "pop" music at the time was probably considered somewhat outside the norm. It's truly odd that King Crimson has been much maligned as a "prog rock" group. It truly reveals the fact that most music critics know very little about music outside what they're listening to at that moment. Little history or theory or taste. Critics generalize everything which may be OK for some, but for serious music listeners or musicians it's quite insulting. I read a great Frank Zappa quote that goes something like this: "Rock critics are people who can't write writing for people who can't read." He may have said more, but this portion certainly rings true. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:40:44 -0000 From: "Alan and Linda" Subject: DVD review Much as I would like to see Crimson live here in the UK, I can understand why Fripp avoids playing in Britain. The Guardian (IMO one of the more intelligent British newspapers) has just given a very brief review of the Eyes Wide Open DVD. According to the author, "The refusal of Robert Fripp's crew to acknowledge the innovations of the digital dance age (or punk) leaves them sounding icily anachronistic". There are numerous examples of Fripps involvement with punk bands -Talking Heads, Blondie, playing "Barbertronics" whilst the Gang of Four had their hair cut. He also gave us discotronics, his own dance band (L of G) and various dance mixes of "Sleepless" etc. This all happened more than 20 years ago so I think the point is that Crimson have moved on beyond this. Elements of these types of music can still be found in Crimson but they have never been a band to stand still. The writer is perfectly entitled to dislike the band but to accuse them of sounding anachronistic suggests laziness on his part. This is emphasized by the fact that in the same column, he calls AC/DC "the best band in the world". I am not getting into a slagging match -AC/DC have a lot of fans who enjoy what they do - but would anybody seriously suggest that their music has evolved more than Crimsons? Hopefully the British press someday will lay of the band and we might get to see them play here before Mr. Fripp retires. On the subject of could there be a King Crimson without Fripp in the band? I think it is perfectly possible but who would have the guts/ego to try it? Cheers Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:32:36 -0800 From: "Richard Kallet" Subject: Arm Drummers Enlightenment This is my first post to ET (I've been following the exchanges over the past year). I am curious how ET members discern a drummer who is predominantly using his/her arms versus wrists....particularly from listening to a recording. I was a classically trained percussionist and have also been a rock-drummer for over 35 years. I just cannot fathom how someone can maneuver a trap set without usuing one's arms for positioning and boosting power. Billy Cobham trained as a boxer before becomming a professional musician and watching him in a clinic many years ago I was struck at fluidity of his arm motion with hints of a martial arts approach....however, he obviously was using his wrists. Trying to monitor my own playing, I notice the arms and wrists working in concert, with the wrists acting with a whipping motion when I do single stroke fills or paradiddles around the set. I just don't think drummers can be catagorized into simple catagories, particularly if we are not directly observing them from close range when we can clearly visualize how they are playing. Of course that being said, I have observed characatures of drummers (the drummer in the movie "Almost Famous") where this arm phenomenon is clearly present and in some neophytes....but in professional prog-rockers?!! I'd be very interested in learning from other ET members how they're able to discern this? I'm very curious! Rich Kallet richkallet at earthlink dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 22:04:48 +0000 From: Mr Tea Subject: Nick Drake Sighting OK, OK, I know that Nick Drake and King Crimson aren't really connected, except in that they were UK label-mates (on Island) back in 1969-72. But I had to tell someone this... 'The Royal' is a good-natured, thoroughly unthreatening, family-friendly drama series that airs on ITV1 (UK commercial channel) Sunday evenings. Normally, I wouldn't be caught dead watching it, but I just happened to be in the same room during the last 10 minutes of the episode that aired on Sun 25 Jan. All of a sudden, a delicious sensation of sheer pleasure washed over me - for a moment I couldn't figure out why, then I realised that 'When the Day is Done', from Nick's first album "Five Leaves Left" (1969) was playing on the TV soundtrack. Fabulous stuff. The series is set in the late 60s (but not the 'swinging' part) and uses the music of that era to underpin the drama. The presence of young master Drake in the line-up clearly indicates that the producers/researchers have looked a good distance beyond the singles chart in making their selection, and I can't help wondering if Bob and the boys have come under consideration, as their debut effort was also released in 1969. Clearly, not all of the album fits with the 'good-natured, thoroughly unthreatening, family-friendly' vibe, but maybe UK subscribers to ET should form a rota to keep an eye on the series, just in case a snippet of 'Moonchild' or 'I talk to the wind' creeps in. Heck, maybe it has already! Anyone else here know something I donit? Nick pp Mr Tea -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:21:37 +0100 From: Wiebke_und_Jorg Subject: Bjork & Fripp > > >"But there are plenty of excellent female singers and composers around. Imagine an album >with Fripp and Bjork." > Regarding this remark from Mats, this is a quote from Bjork, taken out of the booklet of her "live box" (talking about her earlier favorite musicians): "If there was a guitarist, it was Robert Fripp. That was more my department". :o) Greetings, Joerg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:39:04 EST From: Jjvince1 at aol dot com Subject: wha/30 yr/stl check out guitar geek for fripps 97 tour rig complete with digitech whammy and vg 8, the impovements in the gr 33 allows for a differnt style of wah which im sure rf is enjoying quite nicely....how about wetton added to the 30 yr line up.........and is mr muirs whereabouts still unknown...lol....sonic improv trio stl's new prog jazz/ rock explosion ahhhh the joys of the guitar as event.............peace..........a.......????????????????????????........war is over ......if u let it ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:31:59 +0100 From: "Roy Strattman" Subject: KC "Mathematical" >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:25:30 EST >From: DrBaht at aol dot com >Subject: Re: Drummers w/ all arms >Yes. Gabriel's music is lyrically intelligent and is >actually musical,rather than mathematical. If all you can get out of TPTB is that it's "mathematical", then I'm extremely glad that I don't hear music through your ears, oh knowledgeable one. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:44:12 +0000 (GMT) From: meglos at btinternet dot com Subject: Time/Shift: Prog Rock 1) It's not a series. 2) Rock Family Trees was a repeat from 4-5 years ago. 3) If anyone needs anger management, it's you. Please don't refer to Stuart Maconie, Charles Shaar Murray and John Peel as wankers without expecting some people reading this list to take offence. 4) Blairn. My mind's blairn. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:01:21 GMT From: klla at juno dot com Subject: Re: Arm Drumming Good grief! Here we go again with bashing the members of this great band. I too was sad to here of BB departure a few years back, but PM not only stepped up to the plate but brings a fresh concept that is in no ways short on tightness, expression or creativitity. This whole nit-picking over arms or hands is obsurd. I play and teach drums. If Pat had a death grip and ONLY swung from the elbows, you might have a point. But, then again, he wouldn't be able to deliver the goods in this setting. If you closely observe, the hands and fingers are involved. Conversely, Bill's technique, by his own admission, is not perfect(see "Bruford and the Beat" on VHS). The fact is, BB and PM are to highly professional and creative individuals who bring their own thing to KC, and I for one, feel it is inspiring to here the contributions of both. Bryan Meyers www.ashworthmusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:45:22 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Fripp wah; Haskell vocals >Robert Fripp never really used the wah on its more popular, conventional way - He does at the very end of Asbury Park on USA, right before Easy Money kicks in. >Does any live, recorded material exist from live performances of King Crimson with Gordon Haskell on lead vocals? No. - S. np: The legendary 64 Spoons, Landing on a Rat Column scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:58:11 +0000 From: Arcoddath Subject: Artist for Young Person's Guide The artist for YPGtKC was Fergus Hall (designer of the Tarot cards used in Live And Let Die). Front cover painting is "The Landscape Player" and the back cover, also used for the cover of the single issued with first run copies of the album, was "Earth". Regards AxS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:45:49 +0100 From: "Mats Carlsson" Subject: production A more sparce sound With TPTB KC achieved some kind of peak in termes of productionon. TCOL was musically more advanced and complex but TPTB was more in the traditional mould of Crimson. But in the same way that LTIA was a break to a more dence production and making Crimson a vehicle of the most creative guitarr in the world I think it's time to rearrange the production of KC now. They can't go any further un terns of sound. Why not strip it down. Nuevo Metal could be apprehend as a try to connect to contemporary music and a way back to the roots of Crimson. But isn't it about the correct notes, not the as many notes as possible. Fripp has always been a fighter againtst the dinosaurs but it's very easy to get caught in the trap. The projeKcts were wery dence and fraKctured but suddenly Crimson has the production of a super group. Be bold, why not some accoustic sound, some space in between and let the noice be accompaned by silence and ultimately a very distuingeshed sound of the guitarr of mr. Fripp. Don't be shy Robert. My guess is that a vast of KC admires are longing for more Fripp guitarr. //Captain Bligh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:05:42 -0800 From: Marc Deprey Subject: Re: Drummers... MD> I always felt PM's style was very loose and not too expressive, but I suppose it was competent. DrBaht at aol dot com wrote: I'd consider him as tight and extremely competent. I am referring more to his session work and the great job he did on the Sylvian/Fripp 'Road to Graceland' tour in 93. I did see that and liked himI guess I didn't realize it was him. It was all too loud for Zellerbach Hall at Berkeleya resonating cement cauldronbut the simplicity of the rhythms was also apparent and at that he did well. He does indeed flail his arms excessively, but that is to generate more power. Any drummer knows that arms don't make for volumetechnique does. PM looks forced, unnatural. Compare that to Keith Moon/Billy Cobham all power and all wrist. What I'm saying is that as an expressive instrument, drums are open to a lot of flairI don't mean busy-ness but intelligent interpretationa sense that someone is there. This trait is common amongst drummers who are used to working in arenas rather than smaller venues. PA's do the work not the arms. His work with Crimson is poor, but then again, considering the material, he doesn't have much to work with. That I can't agree with. There is a lot of room to take the rhythm track other than synchronized shots with the bass player. PM lacks imagination considering all the toys he has in front of him. And the technique he has indicates someone who is not naturally attuned to the drum set. I'm sure he works hard though. Even the most technically correct drummer of all time, Vinnie Colaiuta, had to resort to using more arm than he normally does while on tour with Sting during the 90's. He was pounding, yet he still was able to groove like a futhermucker. Can't comment on his playing. Groovin' is a Young Rascals tune. It never meant much more to me. Basically a drummer has to keep time kinda of a requirement. MD: Gabriel's new drummer is an arm player too and this leads to a very unexpressive result. Ged Lynch. Good drummer. Focuses on tightness. I guess you mean like a John Bonham-type tightness? I always thought he was great in his interpretationsimple and real. Very basic but right. But Ged Lynch? I guess you could say the Grateful Dead focus on tightness too but I can't listen to them without falling asleep. Simple and boring. Not too fancy. He serves the song well. Is that what you consider as unexpressive? No, John Bonham is very expressive. It's cool to be stark when it works but playing drums is about energy and I didn't hear these drummers following the energy I heard in the music. MD: I guess I just miss the disciplined wrists of BB. You must prefer hot shot chops over groove and consistency. Like I said I like to hear that someone is playing the drums not just sounding like a machine. MD: But Gabriel's music isn't KC Yes. Gabriel's music is lyrically intelligent and is actually musical, rather than mathematical. Well you do know the relationship between music and math is pretty close. I mean the Greeks and all. Gabriel's stuff is very simple thereby leaving room for interpretation. Who played drums for him on the "Secret World" tour. He did a great jobhe felt the excitement and brought it out. This is something BB does as well. You know he is playing not just "grooving". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:55:52 EST From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Re: BBC4 Time Watch In ET 1168 Steve Goodman referred to a BBC 4 (digital channel) programme under the TImewatch banner about Prog Rock. The first part was actually a repeat of one from a series made in the mid-90s based around Pete Frame's Rock Family Trees. The series was a bit patchy because it depended largely on who was still alive and who wanted to speak - or at least what interviews were in the archives. There was only one programme on Prog Rock and it really concentrated on Yes and, to a lesser extent, ELP and Genesis beacuse these were the interviews they had on film. I suspect there are no filmed interviews with Fripp, Gentle Giant, VDGG etc so they didn't get a look in. Also, the point of Frame's Family Trees is to show how bands evolved and swapped members and so Yes were an obvious focus because they had a very fluctuating line up. Bands like Floyd and Gentle Giant on the other hand were relatively self contained and so were not really in the remit of Frame or the programme makers. If you do see the series broadcast anywhere look out for the programme on the Deep Purple family though. Since Blackmore doesn't do interviews, or Deep Purple for that matter these days, the programme was made without him but with him always lurking off stage so to speak and was incredibly funny. As a general rule, the more drink and drugs the musicians consumed during their careers the better the stories about them were! The second programme was basically spare material that hadn't been used in the Family Tree programmes with Stuart Maconie, ex NME journalist and BBC 6 music host, saying that Prog Rock wasn't too bad after all. Taking the other stance was John Peel who was the one who called it elitist and exclusionary etc. To a large extent he is right in that, though since he was the one who popularised a lot of these bands in the first place and then brought them down when he discovered the Sex Pistols I feel that maybe he's just unwilling to confront his past! When Yes made their first ever appearence at the Glastonbury Festival last year Peel was incredibly rude about them. But, then I haven't seen Yes for about 30 years so maybe they are incredibly crap these days. I have a feeling that the 2nd programme is a couple of years old and made when Prog Rock was still basically a term of abuse. However, as a couple of people have noted on here, there is a renewed interest in Prog Rock and BBC Radio 1 had a 30 minute documentary on the new breed of Prog Rock bands during the Steve Lamacq show on Mon Jan 26th. These are bands such as Mars Volta, Muse and Radiohead. Whether these bands actually are Prog or not depends on your view of what constitutes Prog. They don't really have much in common with the 'classic' prog bands but do have quite a lot in common with post Larks Tongues Crimson through Tool. I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that people are only using the Prog word because, understandably, they all want to distance themselves from Nu Metal as quickly as they can. Gordon Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:30:15 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Hoard Subject: Crimson Without Fripp? Crimson Without Fripp? Noticing Mono Chromes post whilst browsing ET 1164, it raises a fascinating thread on the future of popular music forms, and in particular the extended life of cult bands, musical name brands, musical communities, and wayward musical spirits. Optimistically, Id think most of KCs audience would embrace the notion of a Frippless KC, one that practically continues in a satisfying manner after surviving Fripps retirement. If indeed its the Kings spirit, not an individual, that guides the music to manifest, this makes perfect sense. Witnessing the (presumably) last portion of tour marking Trey Gunns last performances with the most recent KC incarnation, the power of the bands live set struck me as not merely a highly technically crafted musical statement, but a continuing ideal and community of listeners extending back over thirty years. Why not a hundred years then? There are great orchestras, chamber ensembles, folk ensembles, choirs, and the like that trace their histories back generations and through centuries so would it be a surprise that in 2075, major rock tours are mounted under the brand names of Kiss, The Monkeys, Aerosmith, Pink Floyd, and Yes and KC? Id say its a likelihood that many big names in rock music will keep the franchise alive well beyond the life span of their original members. Its probably happened already somewhere I hope some of you winced at the mention of Kiss There was for some time (and I guess it was a fiscally unsuccessful venture) a younger version of that band sans original members at least until the older farts decided to come out of retirement due to the usual reasons. More notable are versions of groups led by long expired charismatic front men now touring with original members and replacements for the one member that defined the bands media presence i.e. The Doors. Remember that last Genesis LP with whats his name replacing Phil Collins? Many musical ventures that cant maintain the original spirit or chemistry of the band fail quickly. For those who follow jazz, the idea of a band without its original leader has many precedents. We have a record released last year by Jaco Pastorius Word of Mouth band, with various bass luminaries sitting in for the departed master. Then theres Glenn Miller and various other jazz orchestras that continued decades beyond the death of their leader. So would a new incarnation of KC sans Fripp be a bitter pill to swallow? For me it would be, but like every version of KC since the departure of Greg Lake, theres been something lacking when compared to the original. But then there have been so many astounding surprises and triumphs in the bands evolution since 1970, who can complain? I can easily imagine a successful and rewarding incarnation of the band without Fripp, but thats because the band happens King Crimson if its not dramatically evolving, mastering new technology, and changing key players with its certain gloomy outlook on the reality of the times it wouldnt be KC. More difficult to buy into is The Doors without Morrison or Steely Dan without Fagen and Becker well Fagen anyway. But even in the case of Steely, what if there was a band fifty hears hence who could produce highly original and idiosyncratic, slick jazz-tinged pop rock, and who could faithfully please live audiences performing past classics? The darker side of this future is the tendency of big corporate labels to exploit a brand/band identity and deliver the audience all manner of inferior music and experience. Ultimately as is the case with all commercial music, the audiences will have to choose to support the hungers and lifestyles of the musicians or not. Of course one also fault the majority of bands for exploiting their fans with little more integrity than Pete Rose demonstrated hustling autographed bats on TV auctions. Indeed the KC disciplined franchise has not resisted some excessive commercial impulses I wouldnt confess to my accountant or mother what I paid for that nice black Power To Believe T-shirt So does the KC touring franchise automatically end when Fripp decides hes had it with life in the studio or on the road? I dread the day, but I hope not. I would think on some level Fripp would be quite pleased if KC could continue to open up eyes wide generations to come, and if hes to believed about that certain musical spirit, perhaps its out of his hands in any event. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:37:29 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Emo/Mars Volta I'd like to correct whoever said that "Emo" means emotional music like John Mayer. Emo does mean EMOtional music, but its nothing like John Mayer. It's also not like The Mars Volta or the band from wence the Mars Volta came, At The Drive-In. Think more like Dashboard Confessional. They are whiney, sad teenager with a broken heart music. I hate it, but some of it can be good depending on just how 'emo' the band is. Weezer has been WRONGLY labeled emo or the beginnings of emo, but they are not. I guess if you think At The Drive In with less complexity and talent, much more whining and sappy lyrics. anyway, as far as The Mars Volta is concerned, i have made this comment at least once before on this list- their influence from KC is definately clear. First of all, there are sections in their songs that are very very Fripp-like in their guitar picking style. in the last song on the album when the second part of it begins it comes in with a Fracture-like guitar part, its really cool. Other than that, their jazzy and heavy sounding bass riffs, their complex and layered music, their talented instrumentation, , their album is a concept album beginning to end. Their ability and affinity for live improvisation also links them with KC. BUt more than that like someone else said it isnt exactly their direct musical influence that shows in their music, its the whole package. But they are more parts Santana, Led Zeppelin, At The Drive In, and .. who the hell knows. But KC i picked up on right away. I would like to say that I do consider the Mars Volta to be progressive, and i think its one of the best albums of the year, let alone the past 5 years, especially in the more 'mainstream' market, even though besides indie cred and critical acclaim i wouldnt say they are mainstream yet despite their fame from ATDI. I highly recommend them though, and they are worth buying for 9.95 at any store. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:49:38 -0500 From: "Joe Richards" Subject: Trouble below middle C, Trey Gunn While most people I have encountered have lamented the apparent departure of Trey Gunn I have welcomed it. I do not think Trey Gunn has many of the tools that you would look for in a bassist. Sure he can play fast licks but when it comes to anchoring a sound, building tension and release, providing a harmonic foundation and melodic movement Gunn seems to be lacking. I felt that Gunn's remark that he did not like to repeat himself to be telling. A bassist should like to repeat himself and should know how to develop a theme. Even in simple music the bass part is often the real soul of a piece. In the most recent King Crimson incarnation there was so much missing from the songs because the bass chair was not fully occupied. I remember Fripp once writing that he was frustrated because he would look to Bruford to get some clue as to the rhythmic direction of a piece. So too do listeners look to the bassist for an idea of the harmonic and melodic direction of a piece. I could not escape the impression that Mr. Gunn was often clueless as to what was actually going on and he created the impression of a deer in the headlights. I do not believe that this is entirely Gunn's fault. I think that he is actually a guitarist (look at his session work) who took up the bass parts because King Crimson did not need a third guitarist. Although I am not a musician I would imagine that if King Crimson needed a clarinet player and I were offered the job that I would begin clarinet lessons immediately. For his part, Gunn should have studied music theory from the viewpoint of the bass clef. As two illustrations of what I mean I offer two examples. First, listen to Wetton's bass playing on Fracture. Although at times it is repetitive and simple it is almost always essential to the piece. If you were to remove almost any bass part the piece would collapse. If you mixed Gunn out of many pieces, would anyone notice? Second, listen to Gunn solo recordings like "1000 Years" or "The Third Star". They are vast insipid wastelands without any memorable melodies and textures that are unemotional and uninteresting. They sound like little more than amateur recordings by someone trying to imitate King Crimson. If there is a single interesting musical idea on those recordings I have yet to find it. While Fripp and Belew have done substantial solo recordings, so far all we have heard from Trey Gunn is quickly forgotten improvisational noodling. I hope my remarks above do not sound too ungracious because I probably own every King Crimson recording ever made and I feel tremendous gratitude towards Mr. Fripp and Mr. Belew for giving some wonderful music to the world. In fact, if there had never been a Robert Fripp the world would have been a much sorrier place and there are not many people that I would say that about. But I believe that before King Crimson can ever be mentioned credibly in the same breath with Bartok (and others) they must address the issues below middle C that have been ignored for too long. Goodbye. [ It is not often that ET publishes such cruel and unpleasant remarks about a musician, and I thought seriously about moderating out this post, but decided to publish it, if nothing else but to honour the spirit (if I may paraphrase) of "words from the clueless, posted from the basement". I hope my remarks above do not sound too ungracious. --Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:30:28 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Munari Subject: Re: Drummer's: ALL ARM's? Hello KCriminals! I've been reading the post's about drummer's whom play with "ALL ARM'S" & frankly, being a drummer for 46 years, I simply do not understand this whole topic??? I don't know what 1 has to do with another ie: playing w/your arm's or wrists? EVERY drummer uses's both, there is no doubt about this. Of course you are taught to use as much wrist control as possible, for finesse, speed, control, but you're also taught how to use your arm's 'properly', because this is a must have 'tool' in drumming! Now someone mentioned the great Vinnie Coaliuta, being the greatest technical drummer ever, & while I love Vinnie's playing dearly & have studied him for year's, I just couldn't catagorize him as the 'finest techinal' drummer ever. When this same person said that even Vinnie resorted to playing w/his 'arm's' while playing w/Sting, well of couse he'd have to, because Sting's concerts 'always' contain song's by the "Police" & their drummer was the great Stewart Copeland, who was a hard hitting player that just happened to use his arm's more. However Copeland could be considered very much a 'pocket player' & could & DOES play technically & more intricate pattern's! I look at a guy I think is probably the finest drummer playing today, the great Virgil Donati whom many of you probably have seen on the fabulous "Steve Vai Live at the Astoria" dvd's(or many of you in countries w/PAL will soon be able to see)& if you know Vai, then you know his music demands a harder hitting style, however, Virgil play's 'traditional style grip" 95% of the time throughout, & doesn't miss a beat, & play's Vai's complex music better than any drummer i've heard/seen w/Vai yet! He's alway's under complete control, wether he's playing w/Vai or"Planet X", his own group "On The Virg" or "OTV" or with Bunney Brunel & "CAB" (which Virgil's been the drummer for in the last year)or on any of the other many projects he's working on. Talk about having to play diverse style's! On the Vai dvd's their is an audio commentary track featuring everyone from the band except Virgil, who, as usual was busy playing! Anyway, Vai & Sheehan & MacAlpine(Virgil's PX brother)talk alot about his incredible playing style, & Vai brings up a great point. He say's that any drummer hired for a Vai tour is warned how physical it will be, because not only does Vai make his band go through LONG rehearsal's on the day of the show, they also do a long soundcheck, & then a 2 & 1/2 hr show, and Vai is amazed that Donati practiced on his own BEFORE the rehearsal's, did the soundchecks & long show, then would immediately begin practicing again on his own AFTER the shows were done! Every musician is amazed(except maybe Tony Mac who knows Virgil's routine all too well!)& has nothing but great thing's to say about him! THIS is what make's Virgil 1 step ahead of the pack, he's never satsified with his progress! One funny story that is on the audio track. Vai talk's about how great drummer Mike Mangini phoned Steve after a long tour w/him & said the tour had "ruined him as a drummer!" Anyway, if you'll go back & study drummer's, you find that all the great one's from Billy Cobham(who relies heavily on his arm's)or Dennis Chamber's who primarily is known as a perfectionist, & learned how to hold his body straight & play for long period's of time whilst holding telephone books under the pit of his arm's! Try that 1 sometime! Or how Buddy Rich a techincal player if ever there was one; taught Dennis at age 10 how to play 32nd note's on the bass drum with no spring attached to his bass drum pedal!!! Quite the feat! Other's whom use their arm's & wrists alot are the great Simon Phillip's, Colaiuta,Terry Bozzio, Marco Minneman, Steve Smith & Chad Wackerman(many more)use both their arm's & wrists, whatever the music calls for! So I find it ridiculous that anyone would think the only way to play technically, but still groove, while playing intricate passage's, would HAVE TO play only with their wrists! Now if you just prefer Bruford over PM, then just say that, but to put down Pat for him using his arm's or to say he's not a fine drummer is, just dumb! You use what you have to use. Come on folk's check out the great drummer's...you'll see! Btw, the annual Modern Drummer poll with 21 catagories in it, for ANYONE to vote on the drummer they think is 'most deserving' in each, will be available online around the 29th of Jan. so vote for you're faves at: www.moderndrummer.com go to the homepage, click on the ballot button, & vote! Surely it'll be up & running by the time this is seen! Lastly. There is a new Magna carta release called; "Drum Nation" featuring some great's like Bruford, Bozzio, Smith, Minneman, Morganstein, Wackerman, Phillip's, guy's like Josh Freese & Tim Alexander(back with Primus!!)& many more. It's a great cd so check it out! Thank's! My 2 cent's+ Blackzoner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:46:22 -0500 (EST) From: thedukeofprunes at webtv dot net (Mike) Subject: Re: Live Recordings With Gordon Haskell There are no live recordings with Gordon Haskell. Crimson didn't do any touring back in 1970-71, basically because Fripp couldn't keep the band together long enough. This is what he calls a 'transition period'. A lot of people have their opinions about Gordon Haskell, whether or not he was right for the band or the quality of his singing. Actually I think his own solo recordings are better than the work he did in Crimson. Was he right for the band back then? whose to say, he was there when the band really needed a singer and bass player. But as far as i know, no live recordings exist. Cheers, Mike http://community.webtv.net/thedukeofprunes/ALLTHINGSCRIM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:05:57 -0600 From: Alexander Domrin Subject: Bootleg recordings (Revisited) Hello everybody - Robert Fripp's strong opinion regarding bootlegs is well known. Bill Bruford seems to be much more relaxed. Here is an official position of Phil Collins and his record label regarding bootleg recordings (from today's Genesistrading Digest No.39): > Subject: IMPORTANT INFORMATION PROVIDED BY PHIL COLLINS LTD To ALL MEMBERS- I will post my original letter soon. Until then, here is the reply. The original letter as I will express again, contained questions about soundboards. I have typed this rather quickly, so please excuse any errors if you find any. ///Signed/// Trevor L. Song AS STATED IN THE FOLLOWING LETTER REGARDING BOOTLEGS: January 21, 2004 Dear Trevor, My apologies for the delay in replying to your letter dated October 28, 2003 but both Hit & Run Music and Phil Collins Ltd moved from 30 Ives Street over 5 years ago - twice in fact! The company now renting the offices only sporadically pass any mail sent there! I have spoken to both Phil and Tony Smith about your concerns and they both said that they have no problem with bootlegs that are traded and not sold. Phil's official website www.philcollins.co.uk even has a section where fans can trade bootlegs with each other. The only bootleg that Phil was concerned about was recorded at a Gala concert he gave for his "Little Dreams Foundation" charity. This was banned from being 'weeded' or traded on the official site but we had no control other websites trading it. Yours Sincerely. ///Signed/// Annie Callingham PA to Phil Collins, LVO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:01:40 -0000 From: "Mick Broome" Subject: Help with "Eyes Widw Open" DVD I have now sorted the problem - the RGB output on my DVD player was set to "Off"! Thanks to those who offered help and advice. I can now enjoy "Eyes Wide Open" in all its glory! Mick ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1169 *********************************