Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1168 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1168 Friday, 23 January 2004 Today's Topics: Re: wah not Re: Drummers w/ all arms Re: More help with "Eyes Wide Open" DVD The Cosmic Children Fripp's Crazy Wah Lack of ability to communicate Re: Dokaka Fripp and wah-wah / Gunn fired Re: R&R Hall Of Fame Time/Shift: "Prog Rock" on BBC 4 (UK) kC mix CD's THIS FRIPP'S Wah-Wah Pedal Usage Do Live KC Recordings With Gordon Haskell Exist? artist for young persons guide WahWah Larks tongues wagging ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:05:05 -0800 From: Tom Ace Subject: Re: wah not I'd said (in ET 1166) that I couldn't think of an instance where Robert Fripp had used a wah-wah pedal. Several people have written to me and explained that he indeed used the wah-wah extensively, just not to get the wah-wah effect that I was familiar with. I was not trolling, I was just wasn't fully aware of which devices RF had used to get which sounds. Thanks to all who wrote to set me straight. Tom Ace crux at qnet dot com http://www.qnet.com/~crux/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:25:30 EST From: DrBaht at aol dot com Subject: Re: Drummers w/ all arms >I always felt PM's style was very loose and not too expressive, but I suppose it was competent. I'd consider him as tight and extremely competent. I am referring more to his session work and the great job he did on the Sylvian/Fripp 'Road to Graceland' tour in 93. He does indeed flail his arms excessively, but that is to generate more power. This trait is common amongst drummers who are used to working in arenas rather than smaller venues. His work with Crimson is poor, but then again, considering the material, he doesn't have much to work with. Even the most technically correct drummer of all time, Vinnie Colaiuta, had to resort to using more arm than he normally does while on tour with Sting during the 90's. He was pounding, yet he still was able to groove like a futhermucker. >Gabriel's new drummer is an arm player too and this leads to a very unexpressive result. Ged Lynch. Good drummer. Focuses on tightness. Not too fancy. He serves the song well. Is that what you consider as unexpressive? >I guess I just miss the disciplined wrists of BB. You must prefer hot shot chops over groove and consistency. >But Gabriel's music isn't KC Yes. Gabriel's music is lyrically intelligent and is actually musical, rather than mathematical. -bahtology runs amok ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:38:56 +0100 From: Juro Olejnik Subject: Re: More help with "Eyes Wide Open" DVD Hi, the DVD is indeed a region 0 disc, otherwise you wouldn't be able to play it at all... But it is an NTSC, not PAL, disc, which (sometimes) requires the DVD player to be set on NTSC explicitly (especially in Europe, where PAL is the default). Also your TV could cause problems due to this fact. I don't know whether this is of any help (since my Eyes Wide Open DVD plays everywhere, on both Region 2 players I have access to), but could be a little clue maybe Best, J. >Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:57:27 -0000 >From: "Mick Broome" >Subject: More help with "Eyes Wide Open" DVD > >Hi > >I hope someone can help me with this problem, as I don't recall it being >mentioned before. I have just bought a copy of "Eyes Wide Open" but it >will only play in black and white!! On the back of the case it claims >'This disc has no regional restriction' so I assumed it would play OK in >any DVD machine. I have a (new) Region 2 player, and all other DVDs I have >played have been OK, so is it a problem with the disc or what? I also have >the same problem with 'Deja Vrooom' Both discs play OK in my pc. > >Mind you, even in B&W it's brilliant!!! > >Cheers > >Mick > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:25:49 EST From: Stamperdanny at wmconnect dot com Subject: The Cosmic Children In the pages of "In the Court of King Crimson", I read about an album that RF recorded with Wicca witch and journalist, Walli Elmlark. I understand side one consists of RF and Elmlark in conversation where she outlines her experiences and commitment to Wicca. Side two consists of a discussion with DJ Jeff Dexter where she discusses "cosmic children", i.e. spirits from other places who take physical forms. 'The Cosmic Children' remains unreleased. Does anybody aside from RF know why? Would there ever be any plans to make this recording available to the commercial public? I think it would make one helluva Collecter's Club recording. (No pun intended.) Danny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 04:16:25 -0600 From: "Strato" Subject: Fripp's Crazy Wah >"Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" has an article on the wah-wah sound >(in guitar and also other instruments), which includes Robert Fripp >in a list of "notable guitarists using wah-wah". Problem is, I can't >think of a single recording where Fripp used a wah-wah pedal. Actually, Robert Fripp never really used the wah on its more popular, conventional way - I recall some article where he commented how he liked to use it more in the way of a filter rather than as a simple 'wah-wah' effect ; he would set the wah pedal on different, stationary positions instead of moving it up and down continually. So, I guess he used it on many recordings, just that he wasn't going (to coin a FZappa phrase here) 'wakka wakka' with it. L8r.... Luis. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:46:00 +0100 From: "Mats Carlsson" Subject: Lack of ability to communicate Read the other day the latest lines about the continuing soap Trey Gunn (or TG vs. TL). Without knowing any details about what happened with Trey Gunn it seems that it's a returning phenomenon in the life of KC and Robert Fripp. It's strange how certain persons tend to be "misunderstood" quite often because they lack the ability to straight communication. If one likes to avoid misunderstandings it helps to tell exactly how you feel when you do it. It might be a storm right away but it will blow over and you will at least agree that you disagree and have a fruitful discussion. The other way is to avoid the conflict for the time being but have a long time unsolved disagreement, not to mention the personal frustration it might cause because you didn't deal with situation right away.. I don't know whether it's a personal or British property (or both) but it seems to cause strains. Quite often when this is brought to discussion Fripp says that it would have been impolite to bring it out or regret in retro perspective. Since when is it impolite to tell people the truth about how you feel? It might be the Island, LTIA or Red constellation of Crimson, the meeting with persistent or nervous fans or intruding businessmen back stage after a concert. You have to be a mind reader to know what's wrong. I have in a very direct way been exposed to this inability to straight communication as a fan but I wasn't surprised and didn't push because of what I read for ages about Fripp. How easy wouldn't it have been saying, "I don't think it's appropriate", "not now kid", "I prefer to have some peace and quite after the concert", "I don't think you should stay in the band" and so on. Therefore we will probably see more "misunderstandings", offended or unknowing band members wondering what's wrong, fans or other people in the neighbourhood of KC, in the future. At last a small observation on one of the most male dominated industries on earth, rock music. I can't recall that Fripp has collaborated with female artists more than twice, The Roches and Toyah on Sundays All Over The World. I heard that he's now recording with Eno again. Perfect! But there are plenty of excellent female singers and composers around. Imagine an album with Fripp and Bjork. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:41:40 -0600 From: "Nadim S. Haque" Subject: Re: Dokaka Duncan James wrote: "If you fancy a little light entertainment try a peer to peer search of a band or artist called DOKAKA. They/he does amazing acapella versions of tunes that you would normaly put firmly in the "should under no circumstances be attempted" category." Dokaka is the name of an artist from Tokyo who multitracks all sorts of noises and vocals he can create with his mouth in order to create his music. He's done covers of "21st CSM", "Larks' II" and "Fracture". IMHO, his music is great. Maybe it's about time for a collaboration with KC? *grin* (Okay, okay, I'm ducking already!) Anyone interested in Dokaka can go to http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/DOKAKA/ to get three albums' worth of craziness. :) For more information about him, go to http://dokaka.s18.xrea.com/index.html and follow through to the forum. Cheers! Nadim ---------- Nadim S. Haque Webmaster, Elephant Talk www.elephant-talk.com 'I could not Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither Living nor dead, and I knew nothing, Looking into the heart of light, the silence.` - T. S. Eliot, "The Waste Land" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:25:08 +0100 From: SGIRARD at janbe dot jnj dot com Subject: Fripp and wah-wah / Gunn fired 1) Fripp & wah-wah : you can hear the wah-wah very clear in the first songs of the Nightwatch CD 2) Fripp fired Gunn : what a nonsense.... Greetings / Serge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:38:13 -0600 From: John Michael Beard Subject: Re: R&R Hall Of Fame Bob Bennett wrote: > I went to the Rock N' Roll Hall Fame in Cleveland, >OH recently and was very disappointed that other than Keith Emerson's >Hammond Organ, that he use to beat the hell out of during their live shows, >there was no exhibits or artifacts from the progressive music scene past or >present - almost like this musical style never existed or is something to be >shunned. Judging from the writings of most journalists, "Rock" or otherwise, it IS to be shunned, and those who actually enjoy it must all be snobbish elitists. I know that when I was a teen (during the 70's) few of my friends cared for anything played on my stereo, so perhaps they have a point. John Michael Beard --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 1/13/04 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:06:29 -0000 From: "Steve Goodman" Subject: Time/Shift: "Prog Rock" on BBC 4 (UK) Greetings and a belated Happy 2004, fellow Crimboids! BBC Four in the UK has been running an interesting bit of business under their "Time Shift" series about (cough) "Prog Rock", that utilizes the "musical family tree" that has become somewhat popular with progressive rock fans at least (although I hate the term nearly as much as the British music press who probably made it up, and still prefer "Art Rock", which is just as ridiculous of course). It was a bit weird getting used to the opening segment, which hopefully isn't going to be tacked on each week's episode! (Rant follows. Positive stuff at the end! I promise!) The first segment had a bunch of wankers who apparently used to write for NME and other sources of puppy-training material here, talking about how "awful" ALL "prog rock" was: bombastic, pretentious, overblown, wannabe-classical, too expensive, et-cetera, et-cetera, et-cetera... These guys, many still sporting MULLETS for pete's sake, were just so completely dumping on all of the bands that it was evident that they all had "issues" to contend with. It was the first time I heard someone put forth the opinion that "prog rock" was some kind of "white middle class phenomenon" while at the same time calling it elitist pseudo-intellectual crapola. These guys would all probably jump at the chance to attach themselves to the latest single-name manufactured pop-idol construct on tour in any event, since, hey, it's a JOB, right? By the end of this first segment (which hopefully won't have to be endured in order to get the other airings!) it was evident from one reviewer's comments what their problem was: the poor sods felt excluded from the whole thing somehow. The only correlation I can find between our beloved ET newsletter's discussions of same and that segment was to do with the "white boy syndrome" label. I can only post-mortem weigh in on this, and say that in over 20 years of seeing RF and/or KC live - okay, not since 1997! - the audiences have been composed of a good variety of "types" and races. I don't subscribe to the dangerously anti-personnel concept of "social class" though since moving to the UK I've come to somewhat understand people who DO.. or perhaps just can't help it. I came to wonder if this pasting wasn't just another attack on the genre - let's throw this at it for some pseudo-sociological verity! - and therefore only illustrative of the anger shown by the reviewers. Perhaps it was underlined by one reviewer who labelled "prog rock" as elitist and exclusionary. He talked about how you'd go with your mates to a "prog rock" show, and feel hesitant to "say what a load of bullocks it was", lest ones' friends "realize that they didn't 'get' it", but "it was still bullocks". Sounds a bit bitter, don't it? Perhaps those guys just felt left out, and needed to lash out. There ARE such things as anger management courses for this, neh? Sometimes I think the term "Art Rock" was constructed by reviewers in the US who hated Yes, KC, Genesis, Pink Floyd etc. as much as their counterparts in the UK. That label certainly comes off as sounding like it would like to be more than "just" rock music. Perhaps the best term would have been "anti-pop". To quote the line from "Ain't Misbehavin'", "One never knows, do one?" (Here's the more positive stuff now) The first actual segment then followed the family tree construct that most of us have probably seen before, showing how members of bands who'd been in bands before or played with other bands ended up together, forming Yes, Strawbs, King Crimson and the rest - KC wasn't covered this week - and such musical genealogy has always been interesting to me. I'm just sorry I didn't tape last night, because I didn't realize it was a series and not just a singular "Time/Shift" show. This one mainly dealt with ELP, Yes, Asia, and a bit of Genesis (though not enough IMNSHO). Interviews with bands' members were quite good actually, though there were more Yes alums than the rest (Bill Bruford, Jon Anderson, Chris Squire, Steve Howe, Trevor Rabin). Steve Hackett put forth the notion that "prog rock" was "closer to panto than pub rock", which may or may not be a slight against Peter Gabriel, but who can tell for sure, as some of the interview lengths at times are just short of the kind MTTV viewers are used to. To link though to a topic coming up a lot on ET these days, namely "Is there a King Crimson without Robert Fripp?", I found an inverse parallel in Steve Howe's interview - in which he talks about the weird day that he found himself in sole possession / membership of Yes. I would put forth that I can easily believe the music of King Crimson can be played by Other Folks Than The Classic (or non-classic) Lineup - though the material from the pre-Soundscapes period (pre-'95?), if performed by other than RF, would be either difficult or interesting to listen to. I'm not sure which. I guess I'll wait and see, but in the meantime I've my OWN material to work on, back-dated thanks to multiple delays (and I don't mean the digital kind!) and a move into a 1852-period house in need of renovation. Be assured that, as I have in the past, I shall appropriately spam this and other newsletters when it's done... or, as Chuck Heston put it in "The Agony and the Ecstacy", "when I'm FINISHED!" Here's the link to the BBC Four site regarding this series: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/timeshift/index.shtml Air times: Monday 19 January 2004 10pm-10.40pm; rpt 12.30am-1.10am; Wednesday 21 January 11pm-11.40pm; Monday 26 January 1am-1.40am (Sunday night) And, last but hopefully not least, my belated Christmas card for all is viewable at the moment here: http://www.earthlight.net/Christmas Steve Goodman * EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:54:06 +0100 From: peter purgathofer Subject: kC mix CD's hi i recently made an "easy king crimson" CD for my familiy to listen, so that i can have a dose of crim without having to retreat under headphones. while i assembled the songs it came to my mind that probably other people did similar things, "rip mix burn" their very own crimson CDs. this is the playlist i burned: I talk to the Wind (In the Court of the Crimson King) Lady Of The Dancing Water (Lizard) Cadence and Cascade (In the Wake of Poseidon) Peace - A Theme (In the Wake of Poseidon) Book of Saturday (Larks' Tongues in Aspik) Heartbeat (Beat) Two Hands (Beat) One Time (VROOOM) Inner Garden I (Thrak) The ConstruKction Of Light 1 (The ConstruKction Of Light) The ConstruKction Of Light 2 (The ConstruKction Of Light) Eyes Wide Open (The Power To Believe) The Power To Believe II (The Power To Believe) The Power To Believe IV: Coda (The Power To Believe) which custom crimson mixes do you people listen to? regards peter [universe:/] root# finger purg at igw dot tuwien dot ac dot at Login: ptr Name: peter purgathofer Directory: /tu_wien/igw/uid_lab Shell: Mac OS X On since May 31, 1963, 8:01 (CET) on planet earth, idle 40 years No Plan. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:51:44 -0500 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: THIS FRIPP'S Wah-Wah Pedal Usage PARLIAMENT OF PACHYDERMS: The most obvious deployment of the Wah-Wah Pedal that comes to my own mind is the Saxophone solo section of "1 MORE RED NIGHTMARE", from KING CRIMSON: RED, & to a less obvious extent throughout the remainder of the album. "There's nothing you can do that can't be done..." -MR. JOHN LENNON, M.B.E. MALCOLM XERXES Kit Drums/Percussion ANOTHER 1000 MILES http://www.geocities.com/malcolmxerxes/MALCOLM_XERXES_MUSIC.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:53:47 -0500 From: "Rachel As" Subject: Do Live KC Recordings With Gordon Haskell Exist? There are a multitude of reasons why I've always held King Crimson, and their musical output, in highest esteem. But just to name two: 1. The ability/flexibility/fluidity to re-invent inteself, test new ground, and NOT be bound and chained to a set definition- thus remaining fresh and innovative. 2. The ability to make the constant transitions is has had to make in its lifetime from band-line-up to band-line-up (members join, others leave) with precision and grace. In the spirit of "transitional periods" of the band's existence, one capsulated period of recent interest to me is the "Gordon Haskell" period. This is the period in the band's existence between IN THE WAKE OF POSEIDON (which saw the intoduction of Haskell's vocals on the same album as Greg Lake's departing vocal contributions) and ISLANDS (which saw a new vocalist in Boz Burrell). My question for anyone out there in the Crimsoid universe who can answer this for me: Does any live, recorded material exist from live performances of King Crimson with Gordon Haskell on lead vocals? Were there any live performances? Could fans expect to see/hear such material on future KING CRIMSON CLUB releases or in any other form? Any response would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, -- Kevin Scott :0) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:56:36 -0000 From: "edmund abbott" Subject: artist for young persons guide I don't own a copy of A Young Persons Guide to King Crimson but having seen pictures of it on this site I have been taken by the artwork used to adorn the cover. My question is who is the artist, what is his/her name. Looking forward to an answer to put me out of my misery Edmund ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:43:15 +0000 From: Roger Shannon Subject: Larks tongues wagging HI, does anyone know where the sample came from that can be heard in the background at the start of the coda to Lark's Tongues I? The combination of the staccato guitar and the anxiousness in the voices makes it an incredibly disturbing piece of music. Only clues: they are Scottish. One of them is called Mary, the speaker may be her grand/mother. The dialogue is mostly obscured by the music, so only the urgency really comes through. The tiny bits of dialogue I can make out are: over there.... you should go over there ... pick some an take them home... away on home... the flowers.... ?this is a strange place? (Man's voice) ah know... all the way from Edinburgh... It then goes into a totally different sample/spoken words as the music breaks. I've often wondered where it comes from, and if it has any significance at all, or if it's been used as a very effective way of enhancing the tension in the music. I suppose it could be from something like My Ane Folk (afraid I've never been able to sit through it!) but I just don't know! love to know what you think! Roger ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1168 *********************************