Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1166 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1166 Thursday, 15 January 2004 Today's Topics: wah not kc on bbc radio 2 Re: Trey Gunn Re: KC_Vinyl_Discs Re: "Eyes Wide Open" DVD Help Brufords Earthworks-New CD rockinbeerfest 2004 Drummers w/ all arms Gordon Haskell/Bands That Sound Like Crimson Re: schizoid band, reconstituted groups, and nostaliga EWO-DVD and my wife dvd no.2 - synchronsiation problem More help with "Eyes Wide Open" DVD sounds like Crimson, but isn't.... That Which Speaks to Robert Fripp Signed CDs - Larks/Starless/Red larks tongues oh dear - Heartbeat new topics Re: KC_Vinyl_Discs Bears DVD Re: Gordon Haskell/Bands That Sound Like Crimson ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:06:00 -0800 From: Tom Ace Subject: wah not "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" has an article on the wah-wah sound (in guitar and also other instruments), which includes Robert Fripp in a list of "notable guitarists using wah-wah". Problem is, I can't think of a single recording where Fripp used a wah-wah pedal. Wikipedia allows anyone to edit articles. Despite this, many of its articles are fairly accurate. I almost removed Fripp's name from the wah-wah page, but I thought I would defer to someone, anyone, who knows more about Fripp's history than I do. If you feel confident that the article is wrong about Fripp, and are inclined to correct it, you could go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wah-wah and follow the "edit this page" link near the bottom. Tom Ace crux at qnet dot com http://www.qnet.com/~crux/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:17:42 -0800 (PST) From: Hywel Davies Subject: kc on bbc radio 2 tonight(sat. jan 10) on bbc radio 2 at 8pm "Stuart Maconie's Critical List" features ITCCK. [ My apologies that this post didn't get into ET in time -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:45:57 -0600 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: Trey Gunn Tom Smith wrote:"Most fan may not be aware, But Trey Gunn had been an "hired hand" in KC for a while now. He was fired from the band by Frip for varrious conflicts, but was brought back as an employee when TL was unavailable due to Peter Gabrial commitments. I would supose this ended up as a smoother arrangement, at least until recently." Huh? Would you like to provide any evidence at all for what you said above? When was Trey Gunn"fired" before Levin left? What is the basis for calling Trey a "hired hand" or an "employee" ratherthan considering him an equal member of the band like the rest of the members? Is there any basis in realitypresent for what you are saying? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:25:50 -0500 From: dcooper at lspa dot com Subject: Re: KC_Vinyl_Discs Regarding locating King Crimson (or anyone else for that matter) on vinyl, I recommend that you check out this web site: http://www.gemm.com/ . This is a terrific resource for out-of-print and otherwise difficult-to-find items. And no, I don't work for them! Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:18:53 -0500 From: Michel Drolet Subject: Re: "Eyes Wide Open" DVD Help Oooops sorry about my answer, It seems I sent the reply without it being a bit more complete!! But you do have to read the booklet to understand why it does the little pause, all DVDs does that anyway when there is a layer change!! Michel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:49:09 +0000 From: nigel proctor Subject: Brufords Earthworks-New CD Hi all Have a spare unplayed copy of Bill Brufords Earthworks 'Random Acts of Happiness' (featuring Tim Garland), live CD. Not available in some areas until March I believe. Any interest, contact me off list please. Thanks and best wishes. N ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:00:41 -0000 From: "David Roberts" Subject: rockinbeerfest 2004 You may recall my wish to include KC / 21c in my upcoming festival www.rockinbeerfest.co.uk however I do not think there is any chance until I have a few years/events/references on the record sheet, as prior experience & total perfection seem to be a requirement! I will endeavour to make this first event as near perfect as possible and then have another go at talking to them in a year or two. Progressivedave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:14:00 -0800 From: Marc Deprey Subject: Drummers w/ all arms I haven't been following ET for some time, so maybe this is a dead thread pounded out years ago. I recently bought Gabriel's Growing Up DVD and Eyes Wide Open from Amazon. The Power to Believe got me back into KC (C of L was a big disappointment to me). But having two small children didn't allow for concert going over the past four years so I've never seen PM play drums solo before I saw him on the DVD (I did see him with the double trio several times but I must admit I was mostly watching BB ). I always felt PM's style was very loose and not too expressive, but I suppose it was competent. But now having seen him I can see the problemhe plays with his arms not his wrists. I'm guessing but he strikes me as a hard worker who has developed a workaholic tightness with TG. Now that TG is gone I'm fearing for the direction of percussion in the band. Levin plays in a very open style (compared to TG) so there's lots of room to wiggle your wrists in. Not sure PM's the man. Related pointI saw Gabriel's concert in Oakland last summer. Overall not overly impressive to me (same for the DVD). But here's the connection Gabriel's new drummer is an arm player too and this leads to a very unexpressive result. So I guess as a drummer, I'm disappointed with both DVDs. So much of drumming has to do with energy flow and from what I can see these guys tap into it rarelythey basically just pound it out. Is there some new trend here that I'm missing? Or perhaps the parallel between the two is unfair. I mean PM is a much better player then Jay whatever his name was for Gabriel. But Gabriel's music isn't KC. I guess I just miss the disciplined wrists of BB. MD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:06:07 +1100 From: Julian_L_Langan-Fox at national dot com dot au Subject: Re: schizoid band, reconstituted groups, and nostaliga Ex-members of Whitesnake, (Bernie Marsden, Mick Moody and Neil Murray) have toured and have released material under the name, "The Company Of Snakes" and are now touring as M3. Cheers, Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:57:04 +0100 From: "Jury Alexander Jania " Subject: EWO-DVD and my wife Hi Folks, I recently purchased the Eyes Wide Open-DVD (at first I didn't want to, but someone on this list wrote that there are parts filmed at Bonn in 2000... hm, I still don't find them). Great! Though TCoL never grew on me, I love seeing KC play those tunes, especially Oyster Soup. The other day I was watching Cage with the sound from my amplifier a *bit* louder than usually while my wife was laying in the bathtub. As soon as the song stopped I heard her scream: Oh my god! I went to see what has happpened and looked in those desperate eyes. Did you listen to this horrible noise, she asked. Hm, and I thought that you could introduce people to our beloved band using Cage live... *I like it!* In the last issue of this newsletter somebody wrote that Fripp had already fired Trey Gunn at an earlier time. When did this happen? Greetings from Cologne Jury ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:04:17 +0100 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: dvd no.2 - synchronsiation problem hello, anybody out there with a similar problem with the krimson dvd no.2 from shepherd's bush? when playing the disc, i clearly notice a small gap between the pictures and the sound - which is slightly annoying if you watch attentively, though the gap is a small one - just about between a half and a quarter second (the pictures precede the sound; perhaps i should be happy: vice versa would be worse) in fact, i am not shure if this is just a problem with my dvd-player - could anybody help me here? greetings roderich p.s. if you still need a reason for purchasing a dvd-player, see the krimson dvd no.1 - sublime! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:57:27 -0000 From: "Mick Broome" Subject: More help with "Eyes Wide Open" DVD Hi I hope someone can help me with this problem, as I don't recall it being mentioned before. I have just bought a copy of "Eyes Wide Open" but it will only play in black and white!! On the back of the case it claims 'This disc has no regional restriction' so I assumed it would play OK in any DVD machine. I have a (new) Region 2 player, and all other DVDs I have played have been OK, so is it a problem with the disc or what? I also have the same problem with 'Deja Vrooom' Both discs play OK in my pc. Mind you, even in B&W it's brilliant!!! Cheers Mick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:02:32 -0500 From: "David" Subject: sounds like Crimson, but isn't.... File under, "sound like Crimson, but isn't..." SHYLOCK is a French band that sounds a lot like Crimson circa 73-74 Two records pop up now and again: - Gialorgues (1976) - Ile De Fievre (1978) http://www.progreviews.com/reviews/display.php?rev=shy-idf Also, LOTS of proggy stuff here... http://www.gepr.net In fact, look at the bottom of this page for a rather long listing of proggy bands. And while we're on the French tip, if you're a curious person interested in checking out something truly awesome try MAGMA's Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh. This is not for the weak at the knees: imagine very dark symphonic Wagner with Coltrain fluidity. Some have called this "Klingon Rock." Additionally, the LIVE record and BBC recordings are AMAZING. David Kirkdorffer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:11:27 +0000 From: "mono chrome" Subject: That Which Speaks to Robert Fripp Greetings to all (and Happy New Year), An observer would like to throw something into the ring for commentary: King Crimson has been identified by Robert Fripp as being a musical 'spirit' that occasionally demands to find form and body in a gathering of musicians. i.e. when music appears that only King Crimson can play, King Crimson usually appears to play it. He has often described this spirit as a tangible presence that almost speaks to him and guides him (e.g. - the presence that hovered above and to the left of Fripp as he drove to Bill Bruford's place prior to the formation of King Crimson '81). So we have established that Robert Fripp is not King Crimson, and he too has abundantly denied leadership or ownership of this musical entity. Yet, he seems to be the common recepient of the Crimson Spirit's guiding words. If we were to extrapolate on this, would it be fair to assume that the Crimson Spirit choose to only voice her call to Fripp, and Fripp alone? For example, would it be true to say that the Spirit has nothing to do with (and made no demand for) the music currently being proffered by the 21st Century Schizoid Band? Is it possible that the Spirit whispered something into Bruford's ear, but in his disbelief either dismissed it, or politely declined in favour of his jazz? Was it the Crimson Spirit that cleared its throat into Trey Gunn's ear and told him to "bugger off"? And extending even further, when it comes to pass that Fripp retires to a peaceful life away from the music industry (or musicking completely!), will the Crimson Spirit cease to realise itself and its need for expression? Does Fripp hold the only key to KC, or might it be possible that another musician or individual could be so graced with the ability to channel and welcome the Spirit, so that 'King Crimson' as a musical way of doing things continues beyond our dear Fripp? At one point (and to this date), I believe Fripp made it clear that he hoped that Guitar Craft would continue and perpetuate beyond his guidance. This would allow GC courses to take place without the necessary presence of its originator. In other words, he had entrusted a certain responsibility on certain Crafties to honour the intentions and directions that form Guitar Craft. Might it be possible that similar peoples might one day be bestowed the honour of carrying the Crimson flame for generations to come? Could there be a King Crimson without Robert Fripp? ~/~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:27:44 +0100 From: "d b " Subject: Signed CDs - Larks/Starless/Red Dear Crimheads, Remember the old 1989 'definitive' edition King Crimson CDs? Well, I suppose they have some rarity value now and I've heard stories that you can hear Bill Bruford say "One more time immediately, please!" at the end of 'Larks... Part Two' on some versions of the 1989 CD, but other than that they're not of much interest anymore, are they...? .. *** Unless they are copies of 'Larks', 'Starless' and 'Red' with the inlay cards signed by David Cross, Robert Fripp, John Wetton, Bill Bruford and Richard Palmer-James!!*** I have three such CDs which I'll be auctioning on Ebay in February under the trader name of Bartley Butsford, but whoever wins them will have to promise to track down Jamie Muir to get his signature on the copy of 'Larks'!! So watch out on Ebay in February and may the man with the fattest wallet win (not least to help me pay off my student debts!!) Happy Crim listening (& even playing! - check out FraKctured Zone!!), Daniel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:54:31 -0800 From: "kevin hay" Subject: larks tongues I think if someone wants to hear a classical piece that sounds like it inspired David Csross's violin parts in Larks Tongues in Aspic part 1,listen to Kodaly's Sonata for Sols Cello.(Starker plays Kodaly delos de 1015) Kodaly was a good friend of Bartok and I think they were in a prog band together in collage,but the rumor is they broke up after Bartok started comming up with all kinds of weird theorys about the end of the word and some kind of plan he called the drive to 1904.kevin hay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:16:28 +1300 From: "Paul Brobbel" Subject: oh dear - Heartbeat I just made a romantic mix CD for my new girlfriend, the lead track being 'Heartbeat'. It seems a a logical starting point for an introduction to Crimson, and fits with the romantic theme of my CD. BUT ....... I just found out today she has a rather serious heart condition. In fact she's at home sick with fatigue related to hear weak heart... probably listening to Mr Belew singing right now. It seems rather sick right now. :( Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:15:18 EST From: Johnakni at aol dot com Subject: new topics Dear krimso fans, There seems to be a stagnation of topics of late on elelhant-talk,so I wanted bring up various new ones. 1. Tour Box. There has not been much talk about this overpriced CD long case of the 21st century. Now that Trey has resigned,this last official appearance in the studio of him now has more relevance to the history of our favorite group. Here are some subtopics: A. Foreshadowing ofTrey quitting. In the interview portion, there are some clues to Trey's future decision. For example he mentions how he wanted King Crimson to be a live band ONLY. B. Howard Stern doing a cover of Court I liked Howard's previous musical efforts such as Electric Comic Book and the Losers on the Magic Johnson show. The latter had the Shaggs so-bad-its-good-quality to it. I have not been able to heard Howard since the separation due to certain syndications being canceled. Has anybody out there heard the Howard Stern version of In The Court of the Crimson King? Is it available to the public on CD? What the Fripp is the Lord of The Anal Rings? Holy Sinfield! C. the new emo King Crimson There has been a lot of hype in the emo(I have no idea what this genre means) world that Mars Volta are just like King Crimson. Well,I listened to their new album and it din't sound anything like King Crimson. There was a lot of glissando,pink floyd style,but that was about it. It was better than a lot of new music these days,but it didn't ressemble king crimson to my ears. What does everybody else think? D. Guitar Wars For you King Crimson fans of Japan,what was this like?Is there anyway for Americans to get a copy of this? E.Progressive Rock Reconsidered I found this strange book the other day edited by Kevin Holm-Hudson. There are two portions officially about King Crimson,one about LTIA and another about Dinosaur. The LTIA article makes the case that its form is similar to 21st Schizoid Man and Pictures of a City which is quite interesting. The only flaw seems to be ommitting the free jazz aspect of the song. The dinosaur article addresses a topic I have always wondered about,although I always thought the song was a descendant of Impressions by Coltrane. There are some really bizarre articles about Yes. The article on Tales of Topographic oceans does not mention that it was JAMIE MUIR that originally turned Jon Anderson onto the Yogananda. I recommend the book to all elephant talk people. F. Sound of The Beast There is a book out about heavy metal. King Crimson is only mentioned on two pages of this mammoth tome. Couldn't they have cut out some of Stryper's space to leave more room for King Crimson,which we all know is the thinking man's version of Black Sabbath? G.The new issue of MOJO There is an article about the 60's by Mick Farren(of Deviants,Pink Fairies,author of Galaxy Rangers). The article talks about how great the psychedelia of the 60's was. But then at the end of the article,Mick seems to irrationally point the finger of blame at King Crimson for ending the 60's. He does not really explain why or how,but just says "king crimson are bad." I am not a rocket scientist,but I think the CALENDAR itself endeed the 60's,not king crimson.One day it was December 31st.1969 and then the next day it was January 1,1970. This article is written in a very pretentious manner which perfectly illustrates Fripp's point. Mick Farren does mention Fripp is "witty." Mick Farren (and the Deviants) do appear in the Frame By Frame book as well. I am not sure why he is so angry at King Crimson. Pink Fairies,besides a country song and a few boogie songs,were not that terrible different from the space rock of king crimson in that era. I happen to be fan of both Pink Fairies and King Crimson. Henry Rollins is a fan of both as well. H. interview with Skullflower in Terrorizer Terrorizer is a British heavy metal magazine. In the latest issue there is an interview with Skullflower. At the end of the article,they say there main influences are Glenn Branca and King Crimson. This was a rare occurrence of King Crimson being mentioned in the British press in a positive manner. Has anybody out there ever heard of Skullflower? I hope there are poeple out there who can address these new topics. John A Knight ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:27:16 -0600 From: Paul Hubers Subject: Re: KC_Vinyl_Discs Bartosz_Go dzieniak wrote: >If anyone could tell me where can I get KC vinyls I would be really >grateful. Look on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/. Most of the time they can't give the stuff away. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:33:42 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Bears DVD I don't read every post religiously, so forgive me if this is old news. There is a venue in Pittsburgh that will shortly be selling a DVD of a Bears live performance. Their website is: http://www.clubcafelive.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:49:53 -0800 (PST) From: Simon Godfrey Subject: Re: Gordon Haskell/Bands That Sound Like Crimson Hello Mike Your question concerning bands that sound like Crimson draws one name to the front of my mind immediately and that's Genesis. If you listen to an early album like 'Trespass' you'll find many ITCOTCK like touches. Even certain members of Genesis admit that they used Crimson as a 'starting point' to work towards their own artistic destination. I found Genesis before Crimson and when I finally bought a copy of ITCOTCK, I was astounded at the similarities both in the keyboard and the drum styles (remember Trespass was before Phil Collins joined up). How enlightened was I? On a more obscure level there was a band called 'England' that made only one album I think (during the mid 70's) entitled 'The Garden Shed' This was a prog by numbers album that in my opinion, ripped of Crimson, Yes, Jethro Tull and many other popular acts of the day. It had soaring mellotrons, big harmony vocals, ten minute instrumental workouts and a certain Bruford snare. A terrible album in retrospect but at the time I enjoyed it :-) Cheers Simon. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1166 *********************************