Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1162 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1162 Saturday, 6 December 2003 Today's Topics: Re: FZ does Whipping Post Tony Rejoining- Proof Positive Torrent of Toads tony returns....it's just a rumour for now. tony returns..i goofed Fripp & Hendrix - 2nd Musings in the Key of Freebird Tony Levin / Trey Gunn ITCOTCK on SACD? Meaning Of Lark's Tongues Photography & recording in performance Gunn / Levin Rumours... Cross / Gun Comparison? & New Holdsworth KC - the future who cares? On the audience Why "Larks Tongues in Aspic?" Seeking KC concert poster, Orlando 1995 Re: An experience of flash photography Greetings Re: DGM new business model and how it might affect KC ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:07:28 -0600 From: John Michael Beard Subject: Re: FZ does Whipping Post At 12:32 AM 12/4/03 +0000, you wrote: >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 20:38:59 -0600 >From: Jon Buckley >Subject: Freebird > >Dang. I would love to hear Zappa do Whippin' Post. > >[ I think it's on his "Does Humor Belong In Music" album (and video) --Toby ] > >Old Ears The first released version is on the album "Them Or Us", but there are several versions available elsewhere. John Michael Beard --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.528 / Virus Database: 324 - Release Date: 10/16/03 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:22:36 EST From: Beatlsherm at aol dot com Subject: Tony Rejoining- Proof Positive ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:07:48 -0600 From: Jon Buckley Subject: Torrent of Toads > My take on this is that KC might have to play things a bit differently > than it has been for the last couple of years. I will say this, and it's prolly been said already, but bears repeating: Les Claypool's "Flying Frogs, Live Frogs Set 1" extended take on "Thela" is HUGELY impressive. I would like to see Krimson really expand a known piece live. That certainly would be different than what we've seen of late (not that I'm complaining.. but... you know). Krimson has been fairly faithful doing renditions of recorded pieces OR out-and-out improvisations. Les shows a new attack... riffing on the already known. And in stellar fashion. So howzabout some JAZZ from the new King? Why not stretch and accelerate on the previously known and give us something new? It's quite a revelation, the blues version of "In The Court of the Crimson King" on an old live take I have. Shame the tape ran out. Wouldn't mind hearing more of that. Nice that D.O.U. Bobby released what he had of the bit. My post awhile back ago criticizing the over-reliance on electric instruments in "The Construction" and asking of an acoustic guitar take on a future Crimson album seemed to have some resonance. Hopefully we can see some new tricks out of these old dogs on the upcoming new incarnation tour. Is that so wrong? I do love this band. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:13:25 -0500 (EST) From: thedukeofprunes at webtv dot net (Mike) Subject: tony returns....it's just a rumour for now. hello crimfanatics, tony levin returning to k.c. is just a rumour for now. we don't know if he's going to re-join the group or even was asked. let's not get all worked up about this because we all might be let down. who knows what fripp has in his head or what he is planning. we will have to wait and see. the news was sad about trey gunn but think of it this way....all really good musicians sooner or later leave the groups they were in, especially in king crimson!!! i just hope fripp doesn't pull the plug again. a couple more cd's would be nice but we don't know what's going to happen. king crimson's history has been like a soap opera to say the least. oh btw....check out my website on crimso at: http://community.webtv.net/thedukeofprunes/ALLTHINGSCRIM how's that for a cheap plug? soon i will be starting another king crimson website filled with nothing but album and bootleg covers and very rare pics. so for now... cheers, mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:31:13 -0500 (EST) From: thedukeofprunes at webtv dot net (Mike) Subject: tony returns..i goofed i posted something that was a goof. my 'tony levin returns...is a rumour for now' was wrong. i do apologize. i posted it then read tony's online- diary. my bad. that is great news that he's returning. i'm happier now and i can finally stop whining. i was always disappointed he quit in the first place. mr. levin you have redeemed yourself. i take back all the nasty things i wanted to say about you and bill bruford in the posts i was going to do years ago in e.t. i'm glad i didn't do it. anyways...welcome back tony and best of luck to you trey. cheers, mike http://community.webtv.net/thedukeofprunes/ALLTHINGSCRIM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:27:35 +0300 From: "Turusinov, Andrei S." Subject: Fripp & Hendrix - 2nd Dear Mr.Fripp, Thank you very much for your answer to my ET posting in your diary on December the 2nd. Pardon my stubbornness, but I still have a problem with that Hendrix handshake, simply because it is so easy to check Jimi's activities on the 14th of May, 1969, here http://www.jimi-hendrix.com/encyclopedia/document,19690514,1.html: "May 14, 1969 Record Plant, New York City, New York [Studio Recordings]. TAPE LOG: Freedom // Jam 292 // Untitled Jam // Horn & Piano Jam - Backed by Mitch Mitchell, bassist Billy Cox, and organist Sharon Layne, Jimi recorded "Jam 292", which was later posthumously issued as part of Jimi Hendrix :Blues. Later that evening, the group was joined by an unnamed trumpet player who contributed to series of untitled instrumental jams before the session concluded." Could it be a different Hendrix? A double? Someone who looked like him? Best regards, Andrei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:35:12 -0500 From: BARLETB at Nationwide dot com Subject: Musings in the Key of Freebird Interesting that T Lev is heading back to KC, I've enjoyed his "picking and grinning" and thankfully will get more chances to hear it! (Now if we can JUST get Bill back ?ducking?.) Anyway?rambling on, The Whipping Post/Freebird debate is another interesting thing, Yes it is correct that the Zappa incident started at the Helsinki concert (which is volume two of the "You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore" series, and is HIGHLY recommended because it features one of Zappa's more talented, yet, underrated bands (In my humble opinion no less) The breakneck speed in which they play some of those passages is something to behold! (and if you compare them to the earlier recorded versions on the "Roxy & Elsewhere" MUCH improved and polished!) But The version of Whipping "Floss" done on the Helsinki show is an interesting version! (where Zappa plays his planned song "Montana" with improvised lyrics) Toby's correct in stating that Whipping post is included on the "Doe's Humor Belong in Music?" release AND the "Them or US" release which has the "reagae" solo in the middle section!! however... I digress to the original reason for this email? regarding the YELLING of anything during a show by the usually inebriated individuals such as the person I encountered during a recent performance of Ian Anderson on his "Rubbing Elbows" tour. The "alcoholically adjusted" audient commenced to yell "TULLLLLL" during every break in the action, which during the course of a normal ROCK show, wouldn't be a HUGE problem (unless it was directly injected into your ears) but during THIS series of shows, Ian was interviewed, interviewed people, and related "road" stories in between songs?The practice is JUST annoying whether you yell FREEBIRD, WHIPPING POST, or TULLLLLLLL! So truly I don't think it's the act of WHAT you yell that's important, it's the act of YELLING that seems to make some people feel that they are getting their FULL concert experience, and value for money! (whilst missing most of the action BY yelling, and being somewhat inebriated!) I've found that the less inebriated I am for a concert, the more I recall in my later years..unless of course it's a Pink Floyd show..THEN the more stoned you are the better for your own personal experience, but being in THAT state of mind, I don't find myself yelling "PLAY BIKE DUDE!!!" Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:47:58 -0600 From: John Trevethan Subject: Tony Levin / Trey Gunn RE: Talk about TL being able to duplicate Trey's parts, is Tony a step backward, etc. To me this is not the point of the issue. These musicians are obviously far beyond the mere mechanics of playing their instruments (although the pursuit of technical mastery will always be an ongoing practice). I believe that musicians at the Crimson level are in the realm of subtleties. Most likely Tony would have no problem with either duplicating existing parts or interpreting them in his own way, all the while keeping things within the parameters of what constitutes King Crimson. For me the really interesting and exciting aspect of the line-up change is in witnessing the shifting interpersonal relationships within the band. Naturally a musician brings more than his technique into a group, he also brings his personality and style. This works with and against certain traits in each of the other member's personalities. So who cares about who can play what notes in this or that particular piece? The thing that has my brain on fire is finding out exactly what the loss of Trey will entail, and I'm not talking about notes or instruments. Think about it, Trey has been involved in almost everything that Robert has done for the past 18 years. None of us (perhaps not even RF) knows what KC will sound like without Trey "in the mix". Let's not forget... not only was he in the Double Trio but also every single ProjeKct (including the Rieflin, Fripp, Gunn "ProjeKct 5"). There is no telling what chain of events will be set in motion within the band due to the loss of Trey's personality and style. Now if that's not complicated enough we need to think about how Tony's personality will integrate into the new line-up. You can't compare it to ProjeKct 4 because of Trey's contributions, and you can't compare it to the 80's line-up because of Pat's influence. In my mind it could go a thousand different directions, which is the sheer fun of it. Let me make it clear that I don't have any expectations regarding line-up 8. It's an obvious fact that big changes are ahead, and probably no one can predict what they will be until those four men are standing in the same room together at Studio Belewbeloid in April. Ah yes... the feeling that something is about to happen! I also want to make it clear that I think Trey Gunn is brilliant. I watched the RF String Quintet video the other day (from 1992) and Trey was brilliant then, he just had to have enough time to convince the rest of the world. In closing, regarding TL's Stick abilities: give "World Diary" a fresh listen... Papa Bear ain't no slouch on that Stick! -- J o h n T r e v e t h a n http://www.trevethan.com/john john at trevethan dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:40:37 -0500 From: Mark Subject: ITCOTCK on SACD? Rolling Stone (issue 937, Special Collector's Issue with 500 greatest albums of all time) contains an ad for SACD which states "these albums now available on SA-CD!". It has a two page layout with thumbnail pictures of the albums, including ITCOTCK! I'm pretty sure this isn't available now but does anyone know if this is in the works? If yes, is it going to be multi-channel? Thanks, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:14:55 -0500 From: "Labbauf, Les" Subject: Meaning Of Lark's Tongues In ET 1159 the following was discussed: >> A decadent roman delicacy I believe - but larks being birds famous for >> their song, I would have thought that was the reference intended. Also, >> can be associated with innocence, simplicity etc. As to the precise >> degree of cynicism (re music biz) behind it, it's open to some i>> interpretation! >> Rog I always looked at the title of the song as meaning: Such pretty song's the larks sing, how sad to see their tongues cut out and served up as a delicacy. What kind of dinner music would accompany this dish? Les B. Labbauf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:36:34 +1100 From: "Eric Best" Subject: Photography & recording in performance Hi everyone, I know this topic has been done to death, but I hope this message might contribute a fresh perspective. Up until recently I had thought that this was purely a personal issue: Robert Fripp does not like people taking certain liberties at his performances (flashes would certainly be distracting) and good manners dictates that his wishes are respected. However, a few months ago I read a fascinating book which has persuaded me that our favourite guitarist's sensitivity on this issue arises from a deep intuition about the nature of Being. The book is 'Creating Consciousness: a study of consciousness, creativity, evolution and violence', by Albert Low. Albert Low is the spiritual director of a Zen community in Montreal and has authored several books, all of which appear to go beyond the usual "introduction to buddhism" genre and show an original mind at work. In this book Low argues that there is a fundamental ambiguity, or wound at the heart of things, which expresses itself in such ambiguities as 'being / knowing' 'subject / object' self-as-centre / self-as-perifery'. This ambiguity acts a cosmic irritant that causes the cosmos to be creative in order to heal the wound and restore, however provisionally, Oneness (like a grain of sand in an oyster causes it to create a pearl). Creativity is an expression of the spirit of yearning of the cosmos to recollect its Oneness. Music, according to Low, is a very clear instance of this process. This is why music can so fundamentally move us and is so commonly associated with personal and collective engagements with sacredness. So, when Robert Fripp, or any sincere muscian, is engaged in music creation, they are engaged in some form of healing process of exploring, exposing, playing with, accepting or reconciling the wound of this Oneness that is twoness. When, in the midst of this, someone is nonconsensually recording or photographing they are comitting violence against the spirit of the creative act. They are, in fact, saying "There is no oneness here (or anywhere), there is just twoness: my will against everyone else's wills". They are giving the yearning for oneness a kick in the guts. Anyway, if any of this is of interest to you, you might wish to consider having a read of Albert Low's book. Regards, Eric Best. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:07:22 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Hoard Subject: Gunn / Levin Rumours... Cross / Gun Comparison? & New Holdsworth Fellow Crimson Disciples, First, it was a real pleasure seeing the fearless foursome tear it up at the House of Blues in Hollywood a month ago, with RF stretching out a bit with some ferocious soloing, AB in great form, PM masterful in his rhythmic creations, and TG holding down the bottom. They breathed a lot of fire and life into the new material and the old standbys. It was clear to me as a band this incarnation of the CKing had fulfilled their promise and then some. They were blowing like a hurricane one moment, then weaving intracacies too delicate to grasp the next -- something perhaps I've come to take for granted from the mutated Grandaddy of all rock bands lumped into the prog bin... After cursing myself for being too young and ignorant to have caught the FBWC foursome, I have managed to catch every LA tour since Elephant Talk was premiered at the Roxy back in 1981 -- quite a journey with long voids in between. So being a somewhat seasoned Crimsoid, one takes in each of these shows as if this might well be the last of this particular KC version -- yes the band Fripp has so deftly mentored is the essence of one of his many verbal paradoxes -- we as the audience expect something unique in the live performance that is simultaneously consistent and ever changing. I say bring on the change, and keep at it Bob. I'll first note that I consider Gunn an exceptional technician and innovative player of stick/warr guitars, and a great ensemble contributor to this latest KC, he doesn't compare to the likes of Lake, Wetton, or Levin in terms of the up front presence of those strong musical personalities -- he still struck me as a supportive presence in Crimson moreso than a defining voice -- and the comparison of Gunn to David Cross is an interesting one... both musicians were absolutely integral to shaping the sound of major Crimso era, however both to my ears somewhat the odd man out or background presence when comparing the forceful presence of the other three. What's ironic was the first time I saw 80s FBBL -- I almost thought that was the dynamic where Fripp was the least pronounced -- but how suddenly RF would erupt into the most arresting musical presence in the band -- that still holds true as of their last tour. The 80s KC however, turned out to be one of the best balanced quartets of any musical genre in terms of players in perfect quadrific musical balance, unlike the arguably more powerful FBWC version. This latest Crimson however was something far better than anything those of us young and bowled over in 1981 might have hoped to witness still lurking in 2003... Of course RF will undoubtedly at some point will wax on at length about Trey's departure. I have a bit of an uncomfortable suspicion on this subject, but will voice it without saying I can substantiate it. Anyway, such as these forums often purvey more rumour than meaningful discourse, I heard something from a source very close to the band and crew, possibly concerning Gunn's announced departure. That was simply that Tony Levin had apparently told somebody he was planning on joining up with KC again next year. I don't know if this was true, but it came from somebody credible, who wouldn't want to be quoted about it. This was the word going around late last summer. When I heard it, thinking of TG, I thought, that would make KC a very odd five man ensemble indeed. On the same hand I somewhat doubt with RF and TGs long affiliation in and out of KC that RF said Tony's in and you're out... But it was interesting that there was a lot of talk going around about Levin being back in the band a few months back... * * * * Despite their short existence, given that UK was perhaps the most direct offshoot of King Crimson as a legitimate first rate prog band in their own right, then Allan Holdsworth was indeed perhaps the most unlikely and most diametric contrast to Fripp as a guitarist playing with the Bruford/Wetton rhythm section. Anyway, one of the few legitimate and well recorded live documents of Holdsworth was just released, an album called Then! available via Web order only... Anyway its a highly recommended quartet recording (very well recorded on 24 track digital) from a 1990 Tokyo set. Check it out if you want to hear some Holdsworth really stretching it out... I think many Crimso's will find the track "Non-Brewed Condiment" something to appreciate in terms of output of megawatts and meganotes... Anyway -- it should be of interest to many of you... and I'll have to admit to being an Exec Producer on the project... but as an Old Time ETer... check it out if you like... see: www.alternityrecords.com All The Best/CH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:46:20 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: KC - the future I know that I'm a bit behind the times here. I just read that Tony Levin is back in KC. I am pleased to see the band continue. Every line-up has inspired my ears and I have faith that the latest will be no exception. In case this is my last post this year, let me wish all a wonderful holiday season! Be well. John A. Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 08:17:21 -0000 From: "michael BURGESS" Subject: who cares? Who cares who is in Crimson now? I will never get to see them live again, myself obviously being a disgruntled European. Don't forget Mr Fripp, that we fans invest time, money and dedication in following music combo's like yours, and many of us without any expectations other than listening to your music. I'm not interested in autographs or feeling that you owe it to me to converse with me. Well I think your future plans will come to fruition re Crimson. Cut off a proportion of your audience, and you will become smaller more mobile, but intelligent? mmmmmm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 06:02:07 -0500 From: Inphormashun at aol dot com Subject: On the audience Higher thought exists, always, in a vessel that excretes all sorts of fluids, faeces, oils, and sloughing of dead skin. An audience is very much like the body in this way. While the basic intention of any particular audience is noble and willing to merge with the greater good propounded by the performer, the biological nature of the audience as body must erupt at some point. As a scorpion must sting, some part of the audience will drink, take pictures,etc. This is no justification for bad behavior, only a recognition of the inevitable. When the body lines up with the divine intention, then there is paradise. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:59:50 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Wasser Subject: Why "Larks Tongues in Aspic?" I haven't seen anyone mention this (lately?) ... I recall Bruford mentioning an "inside" joke ... when you say the title, you're actually saying Tounges in Ass. (Similar to Wetton's "licking fudge?" ... Crimson must have a thing for anal ... not that there's anything wrong with that.) Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:09:25 -0500 From: Guy K Hillyer Subject: Seeking KC concert poster, Orlando 1995 Hello I once bid at ebay on a poster advertising a KC concert at Tupperware Center in Orlando, but was outbid. I have been looking for a copy of this poster ever since. If you have one of these you'd consider selling, please let me know. Best &c. Guy Hillyer elephant-talk AT foxhillyer DOT org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:20:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Bryce Sutherland Subject: Re: An experience of flash photography I posted on ET about why King Crimson didn't like people taking photos. I take Matt Nolan's point seriously, and I assumed as much. "...our new CEO was being photographed for press release purposes. ...the flashes were going off at random, every few seconds for most of the morning ...the rest of us were just getting scattered light from the ceiling in an already brightly lit room. It was impossible to maintain concentration with this going on in the background. I wonder how much worse it is on a stage in a darkened room with the flash aimed straight at you?" However, this doesn't answer my question entirely, as it quite clearly states on King-Crimson.com that: "Absolutely NO PHOTOGRAPHY... at King Crimson shows!" No flash photography I understand, but no other types of photography? That was the essence of my first question, as the flash photography is understandable. Visit my site: www.bryce.uni.cc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:08:53 -0500 From: drg55 at netscape dot net Subject: Greetings Greetings KC fans. In my misspent youth KC was one of my fav bands, I cleaned up my act and put a lot of that era behind me. These days I have been going over some of the things of my past to look at them again from another perspective. I have recently purchased some (ok its 8) KC cds and I can say it was great music then and on reconsideration with age and maturity, its great music now. In fact I think that quite a few numbers would make great film background tracks, which would probably get it to a wider audience. I have downloaded midis and with Noteworthy player which displays the sheet music as it plays the midi, I have enjoyed playing along with the band. I wouldn't say it is all completely perfect, but this music belongs in the catalogue of significant modern composition. Cheers, David from downunder (Australia) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: david craig Subject: Re: DGM new business model and how it might affect KC > mostly all KC periods have been already been fairly extensively > documented. The 80's - especially 81 and 82 - haven't been NEARLY well enough documented for my tastes. David Craig ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1162 *********************************