Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1159 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1159 Sunday, 30 November 2003 Today's Topics: Re: Just as Well? Power to Believe SACD Re: Freebird Re: Larks Thoughtless Band Member Tongue of Lark Lark's Tongue Puzzlement? The guesswork begins Trey and LTIA Trey La Vie krimson future A Suggested Replacement for Trey In this opportune moment; thanks Trey; PM plays DW Great Deceiver at a great price! Trey leaving Fripp & Hendrix Big Thanks To Sid Smith Crimson related releases Credit Where It's Due ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Mike Dickson (ET Newsletter distribution/subscriptions) Nadim S. Haque (ET Webmaster) Toby Howard (ET founder and Newsletter Moderator) Dan Kirkdorffer (ET Webmaster Emeritus) The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b. If you'd like to donate to the upkeep of ET, please press the "Donate" button at ETWeb. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:05:45 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Re: Just as Well? In ET 1158, Ced wrote: "Which led me to my thoughts on the possible future of the band. Perhaps T-Lev will step back in? Maybe another young lad will meet the challenge head on? But my most dominating thought was this one: maybe the guys should just stop. "There are several signs that (in my mind) have been pointing in this direction for a while:" Who knows what is going to happen next. I suspect the remaining band members themselves aren't sure. However, if my memory serves me, KC has never ceased to exist after a band member other than Fripp left the band. The 1969 band saw McDonald and Giles walk away, and Fripp forged on. After Wallace, Burrell and Collins jumped ship, Fripp forged on. When the 1974 band ceased to exist Bruford and Wetton were eager for it to continue. The 1984 band ended not because any band member left. Recent diary entries indicate renewed communication with TLev by RF. These were followed by entries reminding us how much RF treasures his space when on the road. Nevertheless, TLev was a welcome visitor. Perhaps RF already knew Trey's decision at this point and was inquiring into Tony's availability. After all he calls him "The Crimson Fifth Man" in another, more recent, diary entry. So, with this info at hand, I think that if KC ceases to exist again, it will happen on a timetable of RF's choosing. What will be interesting, should KC continue, is that Trey has been a musical partner of Fripp's for a very long time, in Guitar Craft, Sunday All Over The World, with David Sylvian, the RF String Quintet and King Crimson. Fripp is on the record as saying that Trey is the only musician that really understands him (or something along those lines). It is possible that RF will view this as an opportunity to be challenged, because maybe this relationship was too comfortable in a sense for him, working with someone who knows him so well. There is also the viability of DGM to consider. An active KC considerably helps DGM exist. This is a secondary consideration I'm sure if one's primary aim is to be true to the music. Perhaps we will have a better insight after diary entries are released that post-date Trey's announcement. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:05:12 -0600 From: "Shane Vitarana" Subject: Power to Believe SACD In the liner notes to The Power To Believe it says that it was mastered at The White House (Super Audio Mastering). According to some web research, it seems that this studio run by Simon Heyworth is SACD capable. So, does anyone know if an SACD version of this album will be available? It's a bummer to hear about Trey. I hope they won't take too long of a break before embarking the next chapter of Kcrimson. I can't believe I just saw them two weeks ago at Park West. Shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:22:01 -0600 From: Jon Buckley Subject: Re: Freebird The inappropriate shouting of Freebird may have started in Chicago. Years ago, popular DJ Kevin Matthews used to mimic the stupid slobs at shows yelling for songs by yelling for the wrong songs for the wrong bands. Of course he would exhort his listeners to do likewise. Freebird became the obvious choice to denote cluelessness. This works on so many levels. It's a comment on rock audiences, and especially audiences who might actually attend a Skynard show. This is not my doing, I'm just reporting, so don't blame me. So in Chicago, it's used for one of several reasons that come to mind: 1 To denote appreciation with the band by shouting out for a song they most certainly wouldn't play in place of simple applause and wordless cheering. This is considered irony. As VL has pointed out, shouting for a song for the band to play is treating the band as if they were trained monkeys. So the knowledgeable audience might shout for Freebird to praise the band and be funny, but not pressure the band to play something the band doesn't want to (i.e.: something from their back catalog). or 2 To heckle the actual clueless jerks who are asking for, oh, say.... Cat Food, at a Crimson show circa 2003. or 3 Just to be stupid. To be done correctly, one must shout Freebird at a break in the music, so as not to disturb playing. When people are applauding is a good time. It must be done as if you are a drunken slob who just woke up at a concert, but you don't know what concert you're at. Essentially, that's the joke. Old Ears. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:26:18 +0000 From: Roger Shannon Subject: Re: Larks A decadent roman delicacy I believe - but larks being birds famous for their song, I would have thought that was the reference intended. Also, can be associated with innocence, simplicity etc. As to the precise degree of cynicism (re music biz) behind it, it's open to some interpretation! Rog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:05:34 -0500 From: SteNavPix at aol dot com Subject: Thoughtless Band Member Fripp's Diary: "I am continuing to recover from the failure of last night's post-show chilling, equilibrating & absorption process at the Beacon. Q. What happens when business people enter the band's private space? A. The band has no private space. Q. What if a band member needs private space to chill, equilibrate & absorb, and there is no private space? A. The band member is fucked. The band member offering hospitality at the Beacon was being friendly & polite, and thoughtless." Ok this is greatly paraphrased. Fripp tells about being upset with a fellow unnamed band member who invited some folks into the Crimson-after-performance-chill-out-space , then left him alone with these people while he was trying to come-down after the show. Then calls him thoughtless. Oddly, Fripp's diary ends before the Mexico City show even though this was posted days after. There's no mention of Trey's leaving KC. Odd still, the way I understand it, Trey sent his resignation from KC via that email to everyone, including the bandmembers. Is this correct? Kinda leaves one to wonder what really happened. Who was this "thoughtless" band member? Sorry, I'm sure there is nothing to this, but one is left to piece together something with what little info is given. Probably not true or fair, and completely gossip-like, but...things that make you go "hmmm". Best/peace, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:54:36 -0600 From: Jon Buckley Subject: Tongue of Lark As I understand it: 1. When asked to describe the music they were making, Jamie Muir responded, "it sounds like Larks' Tongues in Aspic." You can see where he's coming from especially with what sounds like bird squealings in Part II. 2. According to Sid Smith in "In The Court of King Crimson," "Fripp not only appropriated this as the title for two compositions but recognized it instantly as the title of the album, as it graphically represented for him the descent of spirit into form, encapsulating the notion of something very precious and delicate held within heavy matter. Fripp has apparently remarked about the writing of the music addressing the paradox of being simultaneously within the conditioned and unconditioned worlds." 3. Allegedly, unsubstantiated, Lark's Tongues in Aspic was served to Roman Aristocracy. It denotes a high level of decadence, as most certainly lark's tongues in functioning lark's mouths would bring a far more beautiful thing for a lot longer time vs. actually dining on so paltry a delicacy. This is the taking of the divine and making it profane. This ties into upper / lower, divine / decadent, man / woman imagery throughout the album. This imagery starts with the tantric cover art, and extends throughout the entire album. Hope this helps. Old Ears ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:05:49 -0000 From: "Steve Goodman" Subject: Lark's Tongue Puzzlement? Bryce Sutherland asked: "Someone please help me. For a while I always thought the title was Lark's Tounge in Aspec and for some cheeky reason they simply dropped the T and meant aspect, which to me makes sense." It's still not the clearest title in the world though is it? "Driven by my curiosity, I learned aspic means: a clear jelly made from meat or fish stock and often used as a mold for meats. Now, I have no clue exactly how that title relates, I try to ponder it but to no avail. Does anyone have any clue?" Larks' Tongues In Aspic is a made-up medieval dish or something similar, created by Fripp no less. Or so I have read.> I believe I'm correct in saying that Larks' Tongues in SOME sauce were part of the cuisine when first Cleopatra played host to Marc Anthony. I don't believe aspic had been invented by this time. There USED to be a reference to this online, but of course at this point, if you do a search on the whole title, much less "Larks' Tongues", I shouldn't have to tell you that nothing but references to the song, KC, and all and any members of the band come up. A key image that sticks out in my mind is in the Claudette Colbert version of "Cleopatra", as well as I believe the silent version, where a goblet-like dish is shown near-overflowing with what certainly appear to be the small tongues of some creature. It would seem then that the idea of Larks' Tongues being served in ANY respect would be a gesture of immense opulence, if not assumed godhood. Add aspic to the dish, and it becomes even more so. Perhaps this is what the title actually portrays? Or, if one goes back to the Cleopatra reference above, especially the camera shot of the dish itself, it could be a sign of either seduction, or disaster to come. Steve Goodman * EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:07:52 EST From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: The guesswork begins ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:16:43 -0000 From: "Manek Dubash" Subject: Trey and LTIA Just a couple of points: 1. On Trey's departure - maybe it is just as well if the music is running out. Not that I'm happy with what I don't have to be happy with since this incarnation of KC hasn't been to the UK for years -- 2000? One thing I reckon I can guarantee though is that any replacement won't be Greg Lake. I don't think he and Fripp see eye-to-eye. 2. Lark's Tongues - I've heard a retrospective meaning put on it: lark's tongues produce beautiful music, aspic holds its contents suspended, hence -- well, you figure it out. In The Wake Of Trey Manek ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:50:46 -0500 From: "josh chasin" Subject: Trey La Vie I must be totally out of touch, because I didn't know Trey was leaving until I read this most recent edition of ET. My immediate reaction is that he cannot be "replaced," per se. The music this quartet made was, quite literally, years in the making, an ongoing ProjeKCt, if you will, and you don't just drop in a replacement player and carry on. I mean, you can change personnel, but I think no matter how you slice it, a new player means the beginning of a new music. I was thrilled back in '94 when the double trio reconvened, and when the ProjeKcts phase began, so too began a process that moved generally forward and resulted in some great and awe-inspiring music. TCOL was, if anything, merely the opening salvo after the pre-work; after its release I heard the band get better and better, heard the music evolve and take on a life of its own, through their live work subsequent and releases, until it culminated in the shimmering, terrifying, awe-inspiring TPTB-- which is among the best music that Crim has ever commited to tape/vinyl/plastic/hard drive. And the new DVD merely confirms, for posterity, how powerful the quartet had become in a live setting (where for me this music always sparkles at its best.) In a sense, the double duo may be seen as one long ProjeKct-- remember, the original definition was subsets of the 6-man configuration. So yes, I can envision the return of Tony Levin to the working band. But this would mean embarking on an entire NEW ProjeKct, a new music, the music that this different foursome would make. I gather I'd go along for the ride. And too it might mean the beast known as Crimson goes into hibernation again, which would sadden me in the short term but which would, if it is the right thing for the music, be a positive turn in the long run. Remember, the band doesn't play the music, the music plays the band. So a fond farewell and tip of the hat (note to self: buy hat) to Trey. And to the four musicians involved, thanks. I really dug this projeKct. Mission accomplished, I'd say, and quite nicely. Keep us posted. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:40:59 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Jackson Subject: krimson future I think we all wish the best for trey. as the future of crimson, who knows. I can't see fripp starting crimson anew with other players, as some once suggested. If belew left, I think fripp would call it quits. and he might. afterall, he's getting old and, despite the false glamour that the media gives to musicians, it really is alot of hard work. at fripp's age, if he does call it quits, this would be the final crimson. then where does 'elephant talk' go from here? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:13:37 +0000 From: Dewi Morgan Subject: A Suggested Replacement for Trey Just a thought, but one absolutely excellent musician who could easily step into the shoes of any Krimson Bass/Stick Player would be Nick Beggs. He has the raw talent and open mindness to take this role, play all the old songs and expand in any direction Fripp/Belew would like to go. Anyone who saw him with John Paul Jones will see what I mean. So long Trey, may you always live in interesting times. Dewi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:42:17 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: In this opportune moment; thanks Trey; PM plays DW >Good Evening Hippies, What if John Wetton, Gordan Haskell, or Greg Lake came back in this oppertune moment? Would that throw you a curve or what ? Yes! In my opinion, it is much more likely that one of these fellows would join the 21st CSBand. >King Crimson has NEVER been better!!!! But now, it is just another chapter in the next Sid Smith book... What's next !!! Trey, the fans LOVED ya, and were gonna miss ya !!! Hear hear, right on. >Did anyone notice the PM and upside down PM on his bass drum? Cool logo or hidden message? The DW stands for Drum Workshop, the maker of his drums. He flips that over (in a way) and gets a PM out of it. - S. np: Jack Benny radio show from Feb 17 1946 scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:43:55 -0600 From: "Doug & Lisa Liles" Subject: Great Deceiver at a great price! If anyone is interested please have a look at ebay item 2576191972. It's a copy of Great Deceiver new and unopened. The current bid is $10.49. Thanks, Doug xvdougl at yahoo dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 04:07:40 +0000 From: "Danny Anderson" Subject: Trey leaving Wow! That was painful to hear. I can understand it, though. When you have actualized your goals, it's time to create new goals. I have had the same thing happen as an athlete. I was a karate champion for many years and when I was donw, I was done and no one can lure me back to the ring. In an earlier post, someone said that T Lev with the band would be a step backward. I disagree after listening to Willie Oteri's CD. He plays so differently on that CD and he's paired with p@ (on acoustic drums no less). The rhythm team smokes in a way T Lev hasn't (on disc at least) before. Will the band end? I really hope not but I guess we'll see. Trey, best of luck to you in the coming years and thank you for all the musical enjoyment you have brought to all of us over the years. Yours, Dan Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:35:24 +0300 From: "Turusinov, Andrei S." Subject: Fripp & Hendrix Hello everybody! I suppose you all read this message from Fripp's diary, from the booklet to YPGTKC: KING CRIMSON JOURNAL 1969 MAY 14 Revolution, London. A personal turning point following a discussion on presentation: I sit down after 8 gigs standing. Hendrix, dressed in white with his right arm in a sling, approached me afterwards and said, "Shake my left hand, man, it's nearer to my heart". - Robert Fripp. OK, good, everybody, of course, knows that! But, recently I read the book about Jimi Hendrix "'Scuse me While I Kiss the Sky (The Life of Jimi Hendrix) by David Henderson (c)Omnibus Press, 2002. And in this book I read on pages 282-283 that at this time (May 1969) Jimi was in New York, not in London! ==================== May 3, 1969 - Toronto, Canada - drug incident on the customs, heroin was found in Jimi's baggage. After that JHE was in tour in US South May 7, 1969 - Tuscaloosa, Alabama May 8 & 9, 1969 - Charlotte, North Carolina May 10, 1969 - Charleston, West Virginia May 12, 1969 - JHE returned in New York May 16, 1969 - concert in Baltimore ==================== So, who is right: Fripp or Henderson? Who was where? My guess is that Mr. Fripp simply made up this Hendrix handshake story. He wanted it to happen and so it telling everyone it did.. Don't forget about Fripp's note at the end of the booklet: Some of the mistakes included are deliberate; some are accidental. The first time I thought about it was after I read the booklet for King Crimson Epitaph 4CD set. Of course, in this booklet the famous Hyde Park concert was mentioned. But everyone gave different numbers for the audience at this show. Fripp mentioned 750,000, McDonald - 500,000. Lake - 100,000. Then I checked the YPGTKC booklet, and it said, "JULY 5 Hyde Park free concert with Rolling Stones, Battered Ornaments, Third Ear Band, Alexis Korner, Family and Screw. Estimated 650,000 audience." Finally, in the book about Rolling Stones I read that there were only 300,000 people at the show. So, who is right? After I read this fake Hendrix handshake story, I don't think I can trust Fripp's notes and I tend to think that the audience of 750,000 is just another myth in King Crimson's history, originated by Fripp himself. Lake's numbers are more credible - 100,000 at the beginning of the show and 300,000 at the end during the Rolling Stones performance. Cheers Andrei ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 06:29:52 -0800 (PST) From: Simon Godfrey Subject: Big Thanks To Sid Smith Just like to say a quick word of public thanks to Sid Smith for his book 'In The Court Of King Crimson'. With so much information available on the band, I believe he has done a great job of focusing on the real 'flavour' of both the group and it's output. In addition, I left a message on Sid's site telling him how much I enjoyed the book and he replied very quickly, thanking me for my input. It's nice to see a writer that is so ready to engage with his readers. Once again cheers Sid. Simon PS. Sorry to hear about Trey's departure. I think it had been the best KC line-up yet. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:22:32 -0500 From: Gary Davis Subject: Crimson related releases Hi, folks: Here's a few Crimson related releases from the latest Artist Shop Newsletter Coming on our Burning Shed page 21st Century Schizoid Band/Live in Italy Available previously only on the band's recent tour of Europe and Japan, this CD features over an hour of music. Captured live in Italy in March of 2003, this documents the band's new era with drummer and former Crimson member Ian Wallace. As well as five Crimson tracks, this CD features a live rendition of the recent McDonald/Sinfield tune 'Let There Be Light' and the McDonald & Giles opus 'Birdman.' But there's another big bonus here - A BRAND NEW SCHIZOID PIECE (!) currently being performed live, but included here in its studio recorded demo form and featuring all the band. Original Bootleg Volume 1 was a peek at the band in the rehearsal studio prior to their first tour. Live in Italy presents them as an experienced and tight ensemble with plenty of road miles behind them and plenty of muscle in their performance! Coming soon from Manticore Greg Lake/Deeper Into the Mine-From the Underground Vol. 2 Once again Greg Lake reaches into his personal vaults to present some incredible stuff! Except for a couple tracks, the bulk of this CD consists of unreleased material never heard by anyone! It includes outtakes and dropped tracks from his 2 solo CDs and an unreleased project called Ride the Tiger. Also included are some performances by ELP (never before heard track: Preacher Blues and a completely sick version of Black Moon), some ELPowell (stuff not on the two forthcoming ELPowell releases mentioned below) and one track from King Crimson's Hyde Park 1969 show. Deeper Into the Mine also features performances by Geoff Downes, Gary Moore, Tom Scott, members of Toto and many others. Liner notes by Greg Lake himself. Emerson Lake & Powell/Live In Concert Emerson Lake & Powell/The Sprocket Sessions And digging futher into his vaults, Greg Lake has come up with these two gems from that brief period of time that he and Keith Emerson worked with drummer Cozy Powell. Live in Concert consists of a rare ELPowell live radio broadcast. The Sprockett Sessions consist of the previously unreleased studio rehearsal tapes from Sprocket Studios in London. Both of these are from 1986 from Greg Lake's own private collection Amazing quality! Coming soon from David Sylvian David Sylvian/Trophies 3 - A Fire in the Forest ....import Book The tour brochure for David Sylvian's 'Fire in the Forest Tour 03' takes the form of the book, Trophies 3, containing the complete lyrics to his latest CD, Blemish, and also includes a new poem by Sylvian. The full color artwork for this exquisite book has been supplied by 'Blemish' artist, Atsushi Fukui, and designed by Chris Bigg. Both Trophies I (1987) and Trophies II (1999) sold out and became highly collectible items as will, no doubt, Trophies 3. Newly released from Inside Out Trey Gunn/Untune The Sky ....CD + DVD Like many musical prodigies, King Crimsons Trey Gunn started his musical life at a very early age, easily learning the guitar, bass, keyboards and most recently the Warr Guitar for which he is now best known. This revolutionary new instrument is an eight or ten stringed guitar with the range of a piano and is played by tapping the strings. "Untune The Sky" is a retrospective of Trey's 6 previous solo releases that also features alternate mixes and unreleased material. The package also contains a bonus DVD that features live performances, interview footage and several video montages. It will serve comprehensive look back at an exceptional musician and a great introduction to the newest member of the Inside Out family. soundbite - I'm especially interested in hearing this new track from the 21st Century Schizoid Band! I've had a lot of customers asking me if they were going to be developing any new material. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:25:05 -0600 From: "Ced Hendrix" Subject: Credit Where It's Due Way back in ET #1158, I posted a gig review of the St. Louis show. In it, I expressed my dissatisfaction with the overall sound of the performance, due mainly to its volume. So imagine my surprise when I found in my e-mail box a note from Greg Dean, KC's sound engineer for this tour. Greg explained in detail the issues he had with The Pageant that evening. He even admitted that the mix "got away" from him a couple of times. But more than anything, he explained to me the difficulties the room provides for a sound engineer, the nuances of sound based on room position, and the reason he leveled the band as high as he did. It's very easy to criticize publicly, and then hide. But I think it's important that Greg be complimented publicly for his openness and honesty. Having walked a mile in his shoes now, I understand why the show sounded the way it did. I still don't agree with the overall volume, but I DO understand why he did it. :) Greg is just one more reason why I believe that Crimson band members, crew, and enthusiasts are a cut above the rest. You could have just been rude or ignored me, Greg. But instead, you took the high road. I take my hat off to you in this forum, the same way I criticized you. Thanks a lot. Best, Ced www.krazeepeeple.com ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1159 *********************************