Elephant Talk #1139 (as text)

15 August 2003

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:05:26 GMT
From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson)
Subject: NEWS: ET Distribution

"Jordan Clifford" <GrooveHolmes394 at hotmail dot com> wrote...

Sorry about not replying to this sooner.

> First of all I would like to start by saying that if this even appears
> in the next issue of ET i will be amazed. I Havent been able to recieve
> ET for the last 4 months and to TOBY- IM EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED AND
> DISAPOINTED with the service of this newsletter. All i want is to be
> put back on the god damn email list so i dont have to read it off the
> website and so i can respond- theres no reason that i should have
> stopped recieving the email newsletter anyway. PLEASE RESPOND TO ME

ET Distribution is down to me, not Toby, so kindly direct your rudeness and abuse this way.

ET has had serious problems being delivered to Hotmail addresses for months now. I know this because I set up a dummy Hotmail account and subscribed to ET using it. So fr, only one of a possible twenty ET isues got through. The rest have simply *disappeared* without any bounce message being returned to me explaining *why* the delivery didn't get through.

All I can say is that there are about 700 Hotmail subscribers to ET and I would be surprised if *any* of them have been receiving what I send them. I have tried asking Microsoft about this and they refuse to answer.

It is not beyond all possibility that some witless wonder with a Hotmail address has been unable to use the automated administration service to unsubscribe from the ET mailing list and has chosen to report ET to Hotmail as a nuisance. If this *is* the case then this may have resulted in all ET traffic being blocked on Hotmail accounts. Either way, I am guessing because Hotmail won't speak to us about this.

One last point, Jordan - when you start *paying* Toby, Dan and me for your ET subscription then you may have some grounds to take us to task for what you think of the 'the service of this newsletter' and what it should be about. Until that time comes - and there is little chance of it ever coming - I would be appreciative if you could learn some manners. This whole process is a labour of love on the part of the three of us, but being confronted your kind of attitude sometimes makes me wonder just why the blazes I am bothering at all.

Mike Dickson
Elephant Talk Administration and Distribution

[ I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Mike (again!) for his amazing work on ET distribution. Make no mistake, folks, managing dist for something the size of ET can at best be described as a "nightmare" (red or otherwise) so please cut us some slack if things seem to sometimes mysteriously go wrong. The world of email and ISPs is a MESS, and we can only do our best, against all the odds. All I can say is: If you haven't tried running an email distribution like ET, with THOUSANDS of subscribers, all over the world, you have no idea of the sheer DIFFICULTY of making it work. --Toby ]

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 15:10:07 +0200
From: msimons9 at tiscali dot nl
Subject: Andrew Keeling Concert

Phill Lister wrote:

> Dan, you asked if anyone heard the Keeling concert. I listened to most of it
> and was moved by the orchestrations of the soundscapes more than the Crimso
> numbers.

I agree with Phill. The orchestrations of the soundscapes seemed to work better. Maybe it was because the orchestrations of the Crimson songs sounded just like that, orchestrations of songs originally written for and performed by a band. Also, they lacked some of the power of the original band perfomances. I did not know what to expect from the orchestrations of the soundscapes, but I was pleasantly surprised by them.

> The tapes are apparently being mixed for disc by David Singleton. These
> mixes might reveal something missing from the broadcast mix. It'll be
> interesting to hear them.

Unfortunately, I only read about the concert the next day. But that same evening it was broadcasted on dutch Radio 4 and on the internet, so I got a second chance. I had to listen to it on the internet, because I do not own a decent radio. It turned out to be a Robert Fripp special with lots of King Crimson and Robert Fripp music and an interview with Andrew Keeling and Bert Lams, apart from the concert itself. I have recorded the concert, but the recording does not do jusitice to the performance, so I was glad to hear from Andrew Keeling that the performance was to be released before the end of the year. Reading about the tapes being mixed by David Singleton seems to confirm this. I am looking forward to it.

Btw, has anyone ever listened to cover versions of 21st Schizoid Man by Forbidden and Entombed or a cover version of The Court of the Crimson King by Saxon?



Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:18:19 -0500
From: "Craig" <vdorje at ev1 dot net>
Subject: hilarious nipponese acapella Krimso

Check it out! LISTEN here...


Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 04:14:36 +0100
From: "dr" <d-reid at blueyonder dot co dot uk>
Subject: WHAT!!!

Hi All,

A contentious subject no doubt, but as a relatively recent KC convert (6 years) I just bought _Absent Lovers_. While I was enjoying it, I thought I'd go online and check out a few reviews of said album and others while lapping it up. I happened across http://starling.rinet.ru/music/king.htm#Lovers and had to read it more than once to take in what I was reading.

>But THRAK has nothing of the kind - no new ideas or anything. Just
>everything heavier than everything was before, nothing else. In fact, Adrian
>could have easily put the best songs on a solo album, because Fripp and
>Bruford's presence on the album is just plain unnecessary.  Everything truly
>'Crimsonian' about the record is either dated or boring. Maybe you
>understand the purpose of this album? It isn't even a cash-in - it couldn't have
>been one, as there aren't that much King Crimson fans in the world

Now I appreciate that I'm relatively new to KC although I turned 40 this May. I just couldn't come to terms with early Crim in any meaningful way. Not that I disliked it in any way, I liked it ok, it just didn't "inspire" me in any way, so I suppose it's not altogether shocking that somebody should find Thrak, my second favourite Crim album a turn off (Discipline being my all time favourite album by any band). I just thought I'd share this guys thoughts on Thrak.

Harsh or what?

Thoughts anyone?

BTW, Absent Lovers is quite a beautiful album. It's now 04:12 on 2nd August 2003, and I'm on my 3rd listen. I can't go to bed LOL.


Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:48:36 +0100
From: "Antonio Maria Correia" <amtreble at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Re: radiohead influences/introducing KC to friends/Mars Volta

Hello all. i felt like posting again

>I Havent been able to recieve ET for the last 4 months and to TOBY- IM

yeah, i havent been getting the newsletter either.

>I did not listen to Airbag to see the similarities

i see no similarities on that song. tracks from Amnesiac do have a prog-rock feel to them tho, and i do think Radiohead is influenced by KC

>i didn't see any mention of The Mars Volta

totally agree. even though ive only heard bits of De-loused and Tremulatorrecnetly ive been getting my friend into KC. its an awesome new band with clear references to KC. guitar is also atonal and playing augmented 4ths. i sense a comeback of prog... even bands like the paper chase (to some extent) and the dillinger escape plan (with mike patton), who were once punk, are prog-rocky too. which is great!

>recently ive been getting my friend into KC. interesting points about this
>- this friend is a girl

well, maybe cuz im from a mediterranean country (Portugal), i dunno, some girls do enjoy KC. i mean at least the earlier tracks are easier for a "virgin" ear, thats for sure. but i know some girls who do, but not many, of course. I have just spent a year in Rome, and you wouldnt believe the amount of beautiful girls who attended the KC gig there. lots of ppl know who KC are in Italy, and ive met some girls there who do (and are very pretty as well)

But people do tend not to like them. but who cares anyways

See you later in the newsletter

Elephant-talk.com contributor,
Antonio Maria Correia

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:49:31 +0100
From: "Antonio Maria Correia" <amtreble at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Re: The missing track from recent concerts

Eyes Wide Open - I think they didnt play it

Antonio Maria Correia

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 05:02:11 +0100
From: "Antonio Maria Correia" <amtreble at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Re: 70's
>Is/was Fripp insane? His music Just got me all worked up (Fracture makes me
>angry and happy at the same time.)

Same happens to me. I think its a sensation of weird power, psychopatic evilness (even tho im a catholic, dont matter), and a happy rush that comes from it. Other KC tracks do that as well, for instance the fuzzy bass end of Larks 1.

Antonio Maria Correia

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:17:53 EDT
From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com
Subject: The Mincer; Indiscipline bootleg

I can confirm that the vocals on "The Mincer" were overdubbed in the studio. The original live improvisation did not include any singing.

The track listing of the _Indiscipline_ bootleg mentioned by Vic Righini and Gabor Rudolf matches the second disc of an old vinyl bootleg titled _Elephant Walk_, right down to the made-up title "Train to Health" for "Doctor Diamond" and the identification of the improv preceding "The Night Watch" as "We'll Let You Know." Assuming it is the same, the first two tracks are identified on the LP as being from Manchester 5/7/81 and the rest are from Mainz 3/30/74 (legitimately available on KCCC #15) except for "Cat Food," which is from Dusseldorf 11/5/73.

Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:16:15 EDT
From: Bknt at aol dot com
Subject: Norbert Fragg: Parlous and Bagdad Black

Norbert Fragg: Parlous and Bagdad Black

The possibility that Norbert Fragg would not finish his tour with Thing Dismal was considered a bitter confection until your humble correspondent learned the uncouth truth: that what we imagined to be our Norbert, cowering and cringing behind his stack of electronic devices as flash photography vied to pop him off his stool, was, in fact, a fiction! Through the use of Microsoft's new Dopplegigster, a software package invented by Fraggish soulmate David Doubleton that permits musicians to be anything but what they are, Fragg was able to duplicate himself! Yes, what frivolous fans believed was a concertizing presence of the true Fragg was a mere digitized enchantment: a virtual, but not exactly virtuous copy of the shirking, if no longer lurking guitarist: an anti-Fragg that exhibited all the delightful quirks, preposterous despondence, verbose correspondence, hotel interior design redundance, caffeinated mood swings and a wholly uncharacteristic tendency toward autography when interminably detained by a troop of Italian fans who saw through the mustachioed encrustation of cappuccino foam adhering to his philtrum, and shouted, "Freeg! Freeg!"

What, then, was the fate of the real and true Norbert? Since confessing his astounding psychic proclivity to identify Vicious Violating Tendencies That Might Not Exist But Should, Fragg found himself gassed and kidnappedajust like the eternally eye-brow arching Patrick McGoohan ("I am not a number! I am a free man!") of the beloved Prisoner TV series. Transported by British Air's new stealth mumbo jumbo airbus jet, with a passenger at his side who made unceasingly horrendous nasal snorts throughout the entire flight, our Norbert, upon arrival, was forced to don a black sport jacket with contrasting white piping, smartly pressed brown gabardine trousers and soft soled athletic shoes, and compelled to strut the dusty boulevards, war-torn by-ways and rocket-propelled grenade overlooks of scenic Bagdad, in search of salvation of Tony Blair's political future.

Was it the very Blair who, upon reading of Mr. Fragg's numbing response to Blair's delight in the FraggaBleeting Sour collaborative ditty 21st Century Peroxide Blonde, commanded that the former mobile intelligent unit serve queen and country in a quest for Vicious Devices That Haven't Existed Until Now But Had Better Turn Up Soon? We have only the enigmatic Fraggment from the secret diaries, discovered in an Iraqi lost luggage rack, to verify the impossible possibility: Hotel Incomprehensible, Might-as-Well-Bag-it-Dude Having tried in vain to secure an Ethernet port, the abducted gigster again contemplates the hubris of revealing his psychic talents. The ability to identify vampiric photographers in a concert setting, whether or not these photographers possess cameras and know how to use them, should have remained a secret. Sir Bardo Paunchy, my MI-6 "contact," assures me that the difference between a smuggled camera obscura and a ludicrously lethal WMD is "a matter of degree" and that all I have to do is find one measly WMD and I will be returned to my wretched persistence.

It would seem that Sir Paunchy's definitions are exceedingly exact. He has chosen to disregard my extra sensory identifications of Women with Massive Derrieres and the occasional Mighty Decolletages. Weirdly Mendacious Dentists, Waxed Moustaches from Denmark and a single Whirling Muslim Dervish have not paid the freight. What Monsters have Determined is worth contemplating. Thus, the search continues for unacceptable excuses for what otherwise would be recognized as an abomination of reckless human greed. The impulses that inspire photographers to violate a request for audient decorum, as well as the venality that compels the most powerful English-speaking nations to squander what had been an honorable idealistic heritage to satisfy the venal lusts of the petroleum industry, share a terrifying synchronicity.

Alas, a cafe beckons, on a blasted heath in what has been called the cradle of civilization. The purloined gigster momentarily abandons his mission for what Francesco Zappa, in a moment of weakness and strength, may have referred to as a Vile Foamy Liquid, that, in this demolished nation, is served with grace and, in the face of such unreasonable suffering, bravado. At least, in this faraway land, where the palms of my hands are not damp with expectancy, I am not compelled to be anything other than what I am: a visitor who wishes that his presence will not wound the already injured, who trusts that the music of human kindness might heal what has been brutally torn asunder.

Thus the cappuccino-fortified gigster leaves a generous lagniappe, and departs, ironically, if not laconically, quoting the I Ching to the Iraqi gentleman who has invested his future in preparing coffee in the manner of his conquerors:

"Pleasure shared is pleasure doubled."

Bill Kent

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 08:27:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Calabrese <chris at bmamarketing dot com>
Subject: Why do we try to compare?

I am often fascinated by reading reviews - mostly of cds by artists I really enjoy listening to.

If anyone here visits amazon.com, you will know that users can submit their own 'top 10 list' or 'best prog ever'list. I get particularly agitated when I read one for the crims that has a list like 'the crimson catalog - best to worst'. It doesn't even really matter to me which ones they choose, but why even waste the negative energy. I for one, enjoy all crimson cds to some degree and that's why they're such a great band. Why do we compare? Not just crimson but any cds in this way. Some bands do have better cds than other ones (such as early 70's Yes vs. early 80's Yes) - but one of the things that makes Crimson one of my favorite bands is that each release is powerful and unique in its own way. I didn't just purchase every Crimson cd because I like the band. I purchased all their cds with the intent of listening to and honestly enjoying each one. It drives me even more crazy when crimson 'fans'??? on places like amazon.com and even ET sometimes end up diminishing the value of a great band by making these outrageous comparisons. Especially on amazon, the point of a list like this is to sell more cds for amazon through present customer recommendations. I for one, do not think you're being a true fan of the band if you're telling new/potential crimson fans that Beat and ItWoP are garbage. Here is an example of this:


On the other side of the coin, I have also seen other types of reviews that are more of an 'introduction' to a specific band. I think these make much more sense because they present the band in a way where the fan has positive ideas about about specific releases rather than negative ones. Here is an example of this:


I think we all should take a step back and try to find what makes each release so special instead of figuring out why we like one better than the other. What do we ever accomplish by doing that?

(A Crimson fan who works in the bowling business)

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:18:08 +0100
From: "Steve Goodman" <spgoodman at earthlight dot net>
Subject: Fripp and The Cars re-revisited

> POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com

Tim <tfoster6272 at comcast dot net> put forth in #1138:

> > The reason the solo sounds uh, "Frippish" is because it's played using an
> > e-Bow.  Many of us playing guitar now use them, and so the bowed-electric
> > sound loved by us all need not be confined to RF.  Also there's a Bass
> > version.
> Uh, what makes you say that? It sure sounds like classic Les Paul sustain
> to me. I can get the same sound with the good old Big Muff sustain pedal,
> no ebow necessary. And the solo in question sure sounds picked in certain
> areas (not to mention that the video shows it being played conventionally-I
> realize that's not iron clad evidence by any stretch but its worth noting).

No, it was listed at one point around 10 years ago as yet another popular song in which the e-Bow was used. I used the list (which I don't obviously have 10 years and two moves later!) to compile a tape of 'songs on which the e-Bow is used' for the friend of mine that bought me the e-Bow I still use today.

> Whether it is or not isn't that big a deal, it just seems that there's
> always a big rush to insist that that sound can only be produced by an
> ebow-unless you're Robert Fripp. Now Robert is certainly very talented but
> I don't think he has electromagnets in his fingers (I may have bamboozled
> the technology a bit but you get the point).

While he certainly relies on his classic Les Paul for sustain, Mr. Fripp has used a large magnetic hand-held device to super-vibrate steel strings in an e-Bow fashion, I was told, as far back as 1977.

Steve Goodman
EarthLight Productions

http://www.earthlight.net/Studios - The Loop of the Week!
http://www.earthlight.net/HiddenTrack - Cartoons via Medialine!

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:59:31 -0400
From: Chris Holderfield <belewfan at wideopenwest dot com>
Subject: Re: Gatefold THRAK

Well, the Gatefold edition of THRAK that I own is an import, and it is remastered..........Just like all the other '30th anniversary' remasters, it includes news paper clippings and various pictures.


Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:10:46 -0400
From: "Labbauf, Les" <llabbauf at state dot pa dot us>
Subject: Pearl Jam and BTV

In Robert Fripps diary entry of 2003-7-24 he mentioned the following;

The footage is by BootlegTV. BootlegTV was David's inspired solution to how one might use new technology for bringing together music, musicians, audience & industry on a fair and equitable basis. The ideas we presented to various artists & their management in 1999 were taken up by several of those we met, and others, who were better able to run with those ideas than BTV itself. Notably, Phish & Pearl Jam.

I recently attended a Pearl Jam show in Hershey, PA last month. The day of the show I had pre-ordered a "BOOTLEG" of the concert I was about to see. Eight days later the CD arrived along with the baseball cap(Fitted as well) and T-Shirt as well. Talk about a quick turn around, I was pleasantly surprised.


Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:48:15 +0200
From: "p.langedijk" <p dot langedijk at chello dot nl>
Subject: KC at Radio 2 in Holland

Hi ET-ers,

Anyone in Holland made a recording of the KC concert at the North Sea Jazz Festival? It was broadcasted at Radio 2 but they we're not allowed to put it on tape or cd for me.

By the way if you want a bootleg version of that outstanding concert you can download at soulseeker; www.slsk.org, a peer-to-peer-program.

It is on my list, a friend of my made the recording and the quality is good bootleg quality!

Ok ET-ers rock on!


Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:38:48 -0700
From: "Dan Anderson" <dananderson at danandersonkarate dot com>
Subject: Fripp quote

Quote by Robert Fripp in his diary of Thursday 10th. July, 2003

"14.35 Have you ever heard a violin soundcheck? It is dismal. My Mother's funeral was a lot more cheerful than this. 14.36 I have always loved the violin. This is an assessment currently under revision. 14.40 I hate violins. They are horrible instruments. Do you have bagpipes? Bring on the bagpipes, please. 14.45 Have I ever mentioned how much I hate the violin? It is an instrument created by the Devil to torment the human race & remind them of their fallen nature."

The violin??? I can understand not liking the scratching, high pitch the violin brings and I definitely like the viola and cello far better. Bagpipes?!? I think the above quote is far more appropriate for bagpipes. Now THAT would turn people off to the music of the band. The ConstruKction Of Light with a Red encore as performed by the 21st Century Bagpipe Band. How's that for sick? Yours, Dan Anderson

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:01:16 -0700
From: "Scott Steele" <scottst at ohsu dot edu>
Subject: Possible reasons for Crimson's concert volume

>Great concert, as usual with KC but far too loud. It's a pitty because most of the subtle bits, dynamic range and wide texturing within the KC music present in their last CD was somehow drowned into an harsh and mushy wall of sound.

Do you think that the group is defending itself against whatever noises the crowd might make, if the band is quiet enough? At the three shows I saw earlier this year, I noticed the same thing, that Crimson doesn't want to take the audience all the way to Zero on the volume knob (or in Fripp's parlance, to allow silence to come and visit), and the first reason that pops into my mind is that they don't want to encourage the audience to shout out their "personal" message to Fripp or any of the other fellows, or to request song titles. - S.

np: nothing

scottst at ohsu dot edu

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:49:42 +0200
From: "Tadeusz Pik" <teddypeak at wp dot pl>
Subject: question about "League of Crafty Guitarists"


do you know any sites with guitar tabs of "League of Crafty Guitarists"?

It`s very important!

Please mail me:)

"Kto pierwszy, ten lepszy!" - s3odka zemsta Elizabeth Hurley...
Od 1 sierpnia w kinie! < http://film.wp.pl/p/film.html?id=2043 >

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:02:08 -0500
From: wviland at thin-film dot com
Subject: Adrian or Robert

I can (most of the time) distinguish Adrian and Robert in their guitar voice. I am a long time KC student. Robert immediately set forward as the true 'KING' of 'King Crimson' from early listening. Not that he was domineering and out front, he just controlled things. He moved around (left to right, in-out) the scene in a devilish way. His chop's were unmatched, yet he could sooth and caress. Very wicked gent indeed. Adrian came about later and 'Frankly' I was against another guitar. Although Frank Zappa was another interest at the time, I didn't make the FZ/AB connection (dumb shit). Adrian, was in some ways competition to my reference guitar god. Well to make a long story short Adrian, has become my second favorite player (today). Frank is gone 'God bless his sole', but Adrian has a piece of him.

Robert, is wonderfully elegant in all his guitar. If you here scales executed in a pieces manner, it's Robert. If you here extraordinarily fast picking, or chops in the warp speed arena it's Robert. If you hear chords that have no explanation its Robert, if the sound comes from no where, just transcends to tone, it's Robert. Their is always a feeling of 'first' with Robert, no matter how many times you here it.

Adrian, on one hand, is fun. He can squeal, an skwauak...., and scream!!!!!! better then the best. I became an AB fan mostly from his solo releases like lone rhino, mister music head, IR, YL. Adrian can learn to mimic any sound with a guitar, no matter. This is why Robert adopted Ade into the fold. Adrian can play most anything Robert can show him. This is perfect for a multilevel overdub technical performer on the road. I love Adrian Belew for all he's done, and for all he's done for KC. However, Adrian is from the 'new school' wiz bang, wah-pedal, twang bar, generation. Nothing against that. He's the master of the realm.

Robert remains the master. Ade, Trey, and Tony know it. (drummers aside). Trey has been with Robert longer than Adrian.

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:21:07 +0200 (CEST)
From: Jamie Mi <JamieM at seznam dot cz>
Subject: Live at the Zoom Club cover

Is there anybody who can scan and send me cover of KCCC Live at the Zoom Club, 1972? I really need the photo on cover.


Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:40:55 +0100
From: "DAVID TATE" <dtate at lineone dot net>
Subject: Club 23. Orlando 1972

Having got back from three weeks travelling in sun baked France two days ago, I was gratified to note the latest KCCC release lying in wait for me amidst the bills and junk mail.

I have listened to it twice and disc one is on again as I write. It is most interesting and I feel on balance possibly the best so far of the Mel, Boz, Ian and Bob KCCC releases.(though not as humourous as Summit studio) Mel's playing is breathtakingly brilliant. Boz's vocals are superb and really strong. It is wonderful to be able to hear Earthbound continue on to become Cadence and Cascade. Mel has also written some good inner sleeve notes. There is so much to praise on this recording and every Crimso lover should waste no time in acquiring it.

It is worth noting too that the next release is going to be (Oh joy of joy) the Robert, Jamie, John, David and Bill, Crimso playing Guildford Civic Hall, November 13th 1972. Another of their early gigs and one widely praised at the time. One really feels unable to criticise Robert for not playing the UK when he sends such Crimso jewels straight to the front door of this Englishman.

Personal priority on my KCCC wish list is the 1972 Arlington Texas University bootleg complete with the Fripp "Get on down" banter, I am sure that would bring a smile to all our faces.


Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:33:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Frank P <waitingman7 at yahoo dot com>
Subject: Another Fripp Impostor solo...

Hi all of you Crim Phreaks!

Ok, one guitar solo that I *always* thought sounded just like our beloved Mr. Fripp is the solo on "Super Girl" by XTC on their Skylarking album. Is it just me? I bet not. Thoughts? Anyone?... Anyone?... Beuler?



Mike Stok