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Subject: Elephant Talk #1134


               E L E P H A N T    T A L K

        The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp
              and King Crimson enthusiasts

                       Number 1134

                  Tuesday, 15 July 2003

Today's Topics:

   Re: 2 x drummers
   Re: Fripp solos
   "Great Belew Solos" thread
   Re: KC Barber Shop Lyrics
   Re: Airbag - Radiohead
   Airbag vs. Starless?
   Non-Crimson Belew
   7/5/93...
   Re: Ambient
   Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part IV)
   KC TOTP & Double Drumming
   Re: Non-Crimson Belew
   I Tunes and music
   non-KC Belew and solos
   Re: The Cars and Fripp?
   Belew solos
   Re: Belew solos
   Fripp and The Cars
   Check the Czech review!
   Fripp and The Cars

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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:03:13 +0100
From: "daniel chinn" <dchinn at btopenworld dot com>
Subject: Re: 2 x drummers

There's a pretty good two-drummer British band playing at the moment called
(deep breath) "Up-C Down-C Left-C Right-C ABC + START". Or sometimes just
"UpC DownC" for the sake of being able to print smaller flyers.

I saw them last week at the Bull and Gate in North London. They performed a
low grumbling evocative mathrock thing, building and bursting up to enormous
proportions, luminous atmospheres and despairing grooves. They cite Sonic
Youth, Nirvana, Mogwai, Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Sigur Ros as being
among their influences (and it shows - I'd add Hawkwind, Mercury Rev and the
centre sections of "Starless" and "Fracture" to the list). They ended the
set by working out what sounded like some kind of Highland reel, and
inflating it to colossal psychedelic proportions before ending in a gigantic
blitz of feedback. I enjoyed myself.

There are generally two drummers playing at once - the playing is in the
"Giant Minimalism" vein, so imagine a post-rock treatment of the
Bruford/Muir double drumkit attack from "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part II" as
a starting point.

More info is at http://www.upcdownc.com/, apparently. London Crimfans and
double-drummer fetishes might like to know that they're playing at the
Borderline on the 19th July.

cheers,

Dann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 14:28:23 +0100
From: "daniel chinn" <dchinn at btopenworld dot com>
Subject: Re: Fripp solos

Raleigh Kirschman wrote:

> Just my two cents' worth... <snip> Some of Mr. Fripp's work with Van Der
Graaf is worth note, too,
from H to He, e. g. <

Re Fripp with Van Der Graaf.... something's been bugging me when I listen to
the "Pawn Hearts" album. That monstrously beautiful noise at the end of "A
Plague Of Lighthouse Keepers" (just before the choral fadeout) is sometimes
cited as one of Fripp's greatest guest solos... but I'm not sure that it's
actually him! It sounds suspiciously like Hugh Banton's Farfisa organ put
through some serious Frippish effects pedals. Could anyone throw some more
light on whether this is the case or not?

The only Fripp contributions I can really hear on "Pawn Hearts" are some of
his mellower jazzy licks (like the little lounge-y fragments in
"Moonchild"). Mind you, most of the VdGG material is really crying out for a
decent remastering to help the overwhelmed listener.

Re great Fripp solos in general, here are some of mine:

No-Man - "Animal Ghost" - a gorgeously gentle wrench of Fripp overdrive,
like someone singing through a mouthful of snow.

Brian Eno - "St Elmo's Fire" - here comes the yo-yo!

King Crimson - "Requiem" - astonishingly emotional and imposing.

Peter Gabriel - "White Shadow" - possibly the best Fripp/Gabriel point of
contact bar the "Exposure" version of "Here Comes The Flood". When are these
two going to do something together again?

King Crimson - "Elephant Talk" - the "squeaky mouse" solo might not be his
most intense, but it's a welcome glimpse of his sense of humour.

No-Man - "Angel Gets Caught In The Beauty Trap" - a lovely, slithering,
vulnerable ribbon of controlled intensity, and (I think) the last hurrah of
Fripp as Romantic soloist.

King Crimson - "Sailors Tale" - like driving a vintage car off a very high
cliff.

Robert Fripp - "A Blessing Of Tears" and "The Gates Of Paradise" - if the
whole of each album counts as a solo, every note here is subtly astonishing.

King Crimson - "Mie Gakure" - in amongst the Nouvo Metal, you need some
beautiful glimpses of sky.

...and his acoustic accompaniments on "Lizard" are still stunners.

...and isn't that him doing an uncredited solo on "Regiment" (from Eno and
Byrne's "My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts"?)

Dann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 15:06:11 +0100
From: "daniel chinn" <dchinn at btopenworld dot com>
Subject: "Great Belew Solos" thread

To get it rolling:

Talking Heads - "Born Under Punches (The Heat Goes On)" - Possibly the best
electronic/experimental solo Ade's come up with - robot chicken clucks,
melting strums, distressed mobile phones, etc. I wish he would do more of
this in Crimson (the closest he came was the much less exciting solo in
"Three Of A Perfect Pair"). This solo is full of curiosity, great humour,
and a superb sense of timing (unless that's just the editing). I thought
that it was David Byrne playing a selection of handheld video games until I
saw Ade's name on the record sleeve.

King Crimson - "Waiting Man" (studio version) - Ade's most panoramic and
urgent solo, travelling in fear.

Talking Heads - "The Great Curve" - This is Ade's most assured fuzzmonster
attack ever. There's something about this solo which mixes arrogance and
grace to a perfect degree.

King Crimson - "Elephant Talk" - Quite apart from the elephant noises,
there's a real "I've arrived, suckers" swagger to the main solo on here.

Adrian Belew - "The Ideal Woman" - this is the one played on the guitar with
the unwinding pickup. Tinny and lispy, but cleverly bent and full of life. A
sort of "nerd-on-top-of-the-world" feel.

(Yes, I do prefer his earlier recordings...)

Ultimately, though, I like Ade just as much as a guitar arranger and
background performer - in fact, I possibly enjoy his textures, riffs and
embellishments more than his solos. Check out the limpid chordal guitar on
"Two Hands" and "Phone Call From The Moon", the little slides in Jerry
Harrison's "Slink", the floating/steel drum/beast guitars on David Byrne's
"The Catherine Wheel", tons of weird and beautiful noises on Talking Heads'
"Remain In Light" etc.

Can anyone hear what he's doing on Jean-Michel Jarre's "Zoolook", by the
way? I think I hear a few Belew elephants, but I'm not sure whether the
sparky avant-garde funk guitars on there are Ade's or Ira Siegel's.

cheers,

Dann

PS - "Papetti" included in his setlist for Crimson @ Rome a song called
"Tuning the air", referring to RF's opening soundscapes. What a wonderful
expression! I can't think why no-one has used it before. One for Fripp's
notebook, I think.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:00:05 -0400
From: "Jack Bross" <jabross at bellsouth dot net>
Subject: Re: KC Barber Shop Lyrics

As requested on ET, here are the lyrics to the KC Barber Shop.  This track
is also included on the reissue of Three of a Perfect Pair.

I'm Tony! I'm Billy! I'm Bobby! I'm Belew!
We're here to sing and play for you!
Oh we're the King Crimson band (and don't you know it)
We're the best in all the land (all the land)
We play bass and the drums and guitar for you
And if you really want we'll throw the stick in too
We're the King Crimson band (on EG records)
And you know we think that's grand
So settle back to have some fun
And tap your foot in twenty-one
'Cause we're the King Crimson band (you'd better believe it)
The King Crimson band (we don't do encores)
The King Crimson band (no photos please!)
'Cause we're the King Crimson band (we don't do 21st Century Schizoid Man!)
But we're the King Crimson band!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:02:59 -0400
From: "Darin Lemieux" <darinlemieux at rogers dot com>
Subject: Re: Airbag - Radiohead

I took another listen to Starless.  The bassline in the middle is similar,
but is inherently different from Airbag.  While it may be inspired by
Starless, Airbag is far from an exact copy.

Btw - any King Crimson fans who HAVEN'T checked out OK Computer, Kid A,
Amnesiac or Hail to the Thief - I recommend you do so. Radiohead is
producing some of the most intelligent music in the modern scene, and it's
well worth the listen.

Darin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 09:37:24 -0700
From: Steve <soddo at umail dot ucsb dot edu>
Subject: Airbag vs. Starless?

>i thought rightaway htis was done by King Crimson. The beginning of the
>song that is. And after playing my Red-album once more it turned out to be
>quite an exact copy of the middle part of Starless on the album red. Did
>anyone notice this before and mention it before ? I'm sorry to mention it
>again if so.

Well, your assessment piqued my interest, and being a big fan of both bands
I thought I'd listen and compare. Quite frankly I don't see a resemblance
at all, not to the Red version or to any other version of Starless I have.
So either I'm listening for something completely different than you are, or
it's possible that it was a stretch on your part. Either way, I'm sure
there is some adaptation of King Crimson on Radiohead's part, seeing that
the general feel of The Bends and OK Computer does remind me of some KC
work. And who could blame them, right?

Cheers,
Steve O.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 09:09:08 -0400
From: Block <Blockdog at Chartertn dot net>
Subject: Non-Crimson Belew

>From: Gerard York <gerryyork at yahoo dot com <mailto:gerryyork at yahoo dot com>>
>Subject: Non-Crimson Belew
>
>Hi, Gang:
>What can I say? I'm a slow learner. I am just starting
>to dig into non-Crimson Belew: I recently bought Frank
>Zappa's "Sheik Yerbouti" and "You Can't Do That On
>Stage Anymore, Parts 1 & 6." Any suggestions for the
>next stop are deeply appreciated.

Your in for a world of great music. I would suggest that you start to
collect Adrian's solo albums post haste.  For a limited time ( if they
haven't vanished ) you can purchase his first three solo ventures as a
Japanese Import ( unless your in japan and then of course, it's not an
import ) at http://www.adrianbelew.net You will be purchasing direct from
the man his own bad self.  Op Zop Too Wah is the latest solo release ( with
one in the oven ) and it is awesome.  You will also need Inner Revolution,
Here, Young Lions and Mr. Music Head.  Heck, you'll need 'em all.  Check
out the discography at the afore mentioned web site.  Then there's The
Bears......

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:13:12 EDT
From: DrBaht at aol dot com
Subject: 7/5/93...

A decade may have passed, yet it still remains "The First Day".  Give it a
listen sometime this month.  Does it not sound as vibrant and relevant
today as it did back when it was released?

-bahtology

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 09:31:12 -0400
From: Block <Blockdog at Chartertn dot net>
Subject: Re: Ambient

>From: "Steven Paul Rewa B.S." <rewastev at msu dot edu <mailto:rewastev at msu dot edu>>
>Subject: Re: ambient

>Finally, there is something else that ought to be mentioned. Muzak, the
> stuff that used to piped into lifts and department stores.  It was designed
> to merge into the background and was the true ambient music of the 1950s
> and 60s.
>
> Gordy.

Actually, Muzak is still around and these days you can get about any style
or genre you wish piped into your elevator(lift).
There is background music and there is foreground music and Muzak handles both.

While everybody loves to hate Musak it had more purpose then most people
realize. With a lot of R&D it was designed to have specific subliminal
effects in the work place.  This is the background version of Muzak. While
your not really listening to it the "beat" or "mood" of the music is having
an effect on your production even when you don't notice it.  They would
specifically program the music for those times of day when folks have a
tendency to get lazy ( like right after lunch and around 4:00 ) to
gradually move from a slower beat, "mood", to a brighter, snappy sound
that, although you may not realize it, will perk you up and get your mind
moving to a quicker step.  This is how they approached the market and this
is why it was in so many establishments.  If they could convince an owner
that they could improve quality and production just by piping in Muzak,
they were in like Flint.  I suppose they even had designs on improving the
publics "shopping" mood as well.

Now days you can get an all Rolling Stones channel from Muzak if you wish.
( This would be "foreground" music designed to entertain the customer )

block
(Not affiliated with Muzak put I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night )

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 15:20:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Bryce Sutherland <black_sabbath86 at yahoo dot co dot uk>
Subject: Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part IV)

I'm looking for the tabs of Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part IV) as found on
the Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With EP. I've looked everywhere
and can't find it. It's an extremely influential and sentimental song to
me, so if anyone has any information it'd be much appreciated.

Bryce Sutherland

Visit my site: www.bryce.uni.cc

Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:52:14 EDT
From: GORTAY at aol dot com
Subject: KC TOTP & Double Drumming

In ET 1133 Jimmy Bob mentions the appearance by KC on the UK Top of The
Pops programme.  I would think it very unlikely that this still exists as
the BBC had a massive clearout of tapes some time in the 1970s (?).  Most
of the Beatles and the Stones stuff went so I don't think that the Crims
would have survived.  If it did, however, rights to the footage would
almost certainly remain with the BBC.

On the subject of double drumers, which I had thought was dead, I have just
one word. Showaddywaddy.   (Note to American readers - Showaddywaddy were like
Sha Na Na but much much much better ho ho.)

Gordy.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:38:58 -0400
From: Dan Cooper <dcooper at lspa dot com>
Subject: Re: Non-Crimson Belew

In 1132, Gerard York wrote:  "I am just starting to dig into non-Crimson
Belew ...Any suggestions for the next stop are deeply appreciated."

Other than the obvious (his solo albums - Lone Rhino is my favorite) I would
recommend Laurie Anderson's album Mister Heartbreak and Remain in Light by
Talking Heads.  Both prominently feature the Twang Bar King, and both are
classic albums that should be memorized by all Crimson fans.

Dan Cooper
np:  801 Live.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 18:26:40 +0100
From: Andrew Jones <andy0567 at brynderwen dot demon dot co dot uk>
Subject: I Tunes and music

Steve,

On i-Tunes
>
>> I haven't seent his mentioned here yet but it seems
>> obvious to me that a new form of distribution has
>> opened up.
>
> Napster for the Mac, with fees for download/play.  Not very new at all.

If you're musician/ composer the possibility of being paid is a big
advance. And the quality of downloads should be of consistantly higher
quality too

>
>> The majors are asking and getting about 65
>> cents per download from each 99 cent download from
>> Apple, so this would be a good deal for DGM.
>
> If DGM were one of the Big Five this might be the case.  It's not.  If
> one
> looks at the amount of money the artist gets after the Big Five have
> pulled
> their percentages out of it, it sure as hell ain't 65c a download.  Most
> likely the artists are lucky to see .01c per 100 downloads.  But of
> course
> Apple hasn't really published the numbers about this.  It wouldn't be
> "good
> PR".

There's two separate points here- one is that Apple have promised the
same deal to all the labels (for the US)- 65 cents a download and are
not prepared to negotiate that percentage. They also want the rights to
release each song separately as well as sell albums whcih some bands-
Red Hot Chilli Peppers and Metallica are objecting to. The other issue
is the split between the artists, composer and label which is a matter
for those parties to negotiate separately and frankly is not something
which Apple would have access to.

>
>
>> ..., and still they
>> handled more than 3 million downloads in the first
>> month of operation alone.
>
> It still hasn't been determined just where the downloads were to.  For
> all
> we know it was all from Cupertino, and LA (though there aren't a lot of
> Macs
> in the business end of even the Big Five), with the rest being picked
> up by
> the aforesaid slavish Mac community.  Those that could afford to upgrade
> their hardware and software - in most cases all-out replacements and not
> merely upgrades - in order to use iTunes.  And so, until the real
> accounting
> is done - if it is ever done - one may never know the truth.

Its now up to 5 million downloads for a US only service. Your contempt
for Apple's devotion to truth and accuracy is noted.

>
>> Apple has promised a Windoze
>> version by years end making this a huge potential
>> audience.
>
> No denying the PC market is a huge one - between 95-99% depending on
> whom
> you believe - but it would be a first for Apple to produce a non-Mac
> product, let alone one that succeeds.

Apple have three products on the market which are for Windows as well:
Appleworks, Filemaker and Quicktime. So it wouldn't be a first.
>
>> Nothing is worse than an uninformed opinion.
>
> Incorrect.  Allowing oneself to be overly-influenced by encapsulated and
> non-verified PR material is pretty bad on its own.  Unless one is a
> salesman
> for a single company's products, in which case it's a tool for
> self-motivation, leading to hopefully more sales.

Well there's being wrong and pompus.....

Who knows whether paid electronic distribution of music will be a success?
i-Tunes is currently not available outside the US and Apple's roll out of
non US customisation is poor (I'm thinking of localised Sherlock channels
and i-Photo printing here).  THere are also different models of
distribution- the subscription model with varying restrictions (of which
e-music is the most appealing to me, but it no wide access to major label
content), which have not been as successful as i-Tunes to date, and then
there are bands like Phish distributing concert downloads by mp-3 and .shn
files a few days after the shows. I suspect there will be a variety of
different models and that the CD is not about to disappear just yet.

But I could be wrong...

Andrew Jones

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 12:53:23 -0500
From: John Michael Beard <loungehound at earthlink dot net>
Subject: non-KC Belew and solos

Since someone asked for recommendations of non-KC Belew, and someone else
about great Belew solos, then the Talking Heads album "Remain In Light" is
essential listening. The solos on "The Great Curve" are still two of my
favorites by him or anyone else for that matter.
John Michael Beard
www.elvibes.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 14:55:06 -0400
From: Tim <tfoster6272 at comcast dot net>
Subject: Re: The Cars and Fripp?

> Has anyone ever noticed the uncanny Fripp-ish solo on The Cars song "Since
> You've Gone"?
>
> Is this an unaccredited Fripp appearance or just a good Fripp imitation?

Wow-I thought I was the only one who ever thought that! I think it's a
pretty safe to bet to presume that's good old Elliot Easton and not our
friend Bobby. I always wondered though if there was an influence at work or
if that was purely coincidental. The video does show Easton playing a black
Les Paul sitting on the couch...hmmm!  And I also thought the opening
moments of "Model Man" sounded like a Cars song (well, at least until
Adrian came in!)

Tim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 15:09:46 EDT
From: Guitar86rick at aol dot com
Subject: Belew solos

My favorite Belew solo is his one on Larks Tongues in Aspic Part IV.  It
just rips your heart right out of your ribcage.  I am only limited to his
work with Crimson, though, since I haven't heard any of his other stuff.

Rick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 15:11:42 -0400
From: Tim <tfoster6272 at comcast dot net>
Subject: Re: Belew solos

> How about a
> "Great Belew Solos" thread?

I'll kick things off, 'bout time we gave Ade his props too!
In no particular order:
1) The Howler
2) Waiting Man
3) The solos for Elephant Talk and Thela Hun Ginjeet as performed on
Fridays. This was the first time I saw KC and they were simply amazing. I
think Adrian did everything to his guitar except actually pluck a
note-breathtaking stuff.
4) Big Electric Cat
5) The Sheltering Sky

Tim

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 00:41:22 +0100
From: "Steve Goodman" <spgoodman at earthlight dot net>
Subject: Fripp and The Cars

In ET # 1132, Norman dot Duffell at us dot army dot mil put forth:

Has anyone ever noticed the uncanny Fripp-ish solo on The Cars song "Since
You've Gone"?  Is this an unaccredited Fripp appearance or just a good Fripp
imitation?

Yes, and no, not really.

The reason the solo sounds uh, "Frippish" is because it's played using an
e-Bow.  Many of us playing guitar now use them, and so the bowed-electric
sound loved by us all need not be confined to RF.  Also there's a Bass
version.

Steve Goodman
EarthLight Productions
*
http://www.earthlight.net/Studios - The Loop of the Week!
http://www.earthlight.net/HiddenTrack - Cartoons via Medialine!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:07:47 +1000
From: "Mr Profi" <prof dot davy at usa dot com>
Subject: Check the Czech review!

Hi

Here are some extracts from the Czech review:

>Finally got to send this... I'm NOT subscribed and I don't plan to >subscribe

I think you should subscribe dude after what I've read here.

>Almost nothing has changed since that time - only Bill Bruford and >Trey
>Gunn were missing.

... and John Wetton, heh?

>Tony Levin was playing [bass]guitar and Pat Mastelloto enjoying
>everything.

... and Greg Lake's singing was fabulous, heh?

>It was the last song from "Red" album which
>I still regard as the best - so a perfect finish for such event.

You were lucky lad to hear "Starless" played live by this band.

PS. Next time 'doubleCzech' everything!

Mr Profi
--
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

CareerBuilder.com has over 400,000 jobs. Be smarter about your job search
http://corp.mail.com/careers

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:38:04 EDT
From: MDJSocial at aol dot com
Subject: Fripp and The Cars

> Has anyone ever noticed the uncanny Fripp-ish solo on The Cars song "Since
> You've Gone"?
>
> Is this an unaccredited Fripp appearance or just a good Fripp imitation?

A good imitation.   The guitarist is Elliot Easton.

Michael Jeter
<A HREF="http://protect.org/">http://protect.org/</A>
National Association to Protect Children
America's First Political Lobby for Child Protection

------------------------------

End of Elephant Talk Digest #1134
*********************************