Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1130 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1130 Wednesday, 18 June 2003 Today's Topics: NEWS: ET Webmaster sought KC/DGM & Zappa/drummers No UK Gigs Re: Double-drummers Double kit Fripp's Solos Fripp solos Crimso: The Ol' Weedly Deweedly Re: my takes on excellent fripp solos Re: Rock Percussion Dual drummers Tour Box for Sale Re: 'Ambient' grammar lessons... twin drummers and other quadrupeds Fripp hanging up his guns? Re: Rock Percussion DGM releases on iTunes? chromatic fantasy Dual Drumming, Double Trio Breakup Mastelotto interview Re: takes on excellent fripp solos Help required - looking for scores ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:47:35 +0200 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: ET Webmaster sought Just a reminder that we are seeking a new Webmeister to take over and run ET Web. Dan has done a FANTASTIC job, but the time has come for a change. If you're interested, please drop us a line (no obligation). Toby ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:47:35 +0200 From: "lichtafee" Subject: KC/DGM & Zappa/drummers When I visit the DGM-site for some new information, I sometimes ask myself: what would happen to DGM if King Crimson disbanded? How far are both dependent on each other? Is DGM one driving force for Fripp/KC (the latter being in action longer than ever these days)? And regarding the discussion, if an outstanding drummer like Colaiuta (whom I adore) could play "any style of music" (in the "best" way?), I'd like to add an example, where rock/jazz & contemporary music meet: Zappa. In 1991 or 1992 Zappa began to rehearse with a well-known chamber orchestra for contemporary music called "Ensemble Modern" (which is ONE of many equally competent "avantgarde"-ensembles all over the world). It occured to FZ that they were capable of playing some of his "unplayable" synclavier-compositions which he began to compose after unpleasant experiences with symphony orchestras (and rock bands? - listening to a bunch of bootlegs, it sometimes gets clear that even all those outstanding rock/jazz-musicians sometimes weren't perfect enough for FZ's extreme demands). FZ was reportedly totally thrilled by the Ensemble Modern, and I read somewhere that he even had the wish to tour with them (which didn't take place due to his illness). So there obviously was something about these musicians (representing HORDS of specialised soloists of contemporary music here) that he didn't find in his former touring bands (of course - as some classical trained musicians simply do hardly anything else but playing music like that for many years - unlike the drummers we're talking of). And I'm sure that many classical trained drummers (not only the ones in the "Ensemble Modern") who practise and rehearse written contemporary music maybe several hours a day, certainly develop abilities that even Vince Colaiuta hasn't (and never needed!). Hey, there are REALLY more drumming genius-players around, not only Donati or Colaiuta! And if for example a guy like Pierre Boulez looked for a drummer to play contemporary classical music on a classical drum-set up in a chamber ensemble - well, again: I'm sure even Colaiuta is more or less irrelevant here, inspite of his outstanding abilities. What a weird idea! (and Evan Parker maybe would get a nervous breakdown or leave the stage pretty soon when freely improvising in duet with Virgil Donati - and for some reasons, both are not interested in such an endeavour anyway....). So again: what I basically want to say: they're not better, they're not worse, they're simply DIFFERENT (and also very impressing). So again: what's this business about the "best", or people being able to play "all styles" on a high level? (who needs that anyway?!) Greetings, Joerg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:14:05 +0100 From: "Michael BURGESS" Subject: No UK Gigs I too Suspect that the Lack of any UK gigs will have a lasting deleterious effect on my relationship with Crimson Musicand the band. It is quite hard to not take this as a slap in the face to UK fans. Obviously its not meant personally, and I agree London is generally an abhorrent place for gigs etc, but there are other venues that could act for this as well, with maybe only a slight effect on press coverage /attendance. Who are you playing for anyway? Ah well, its only rock and roll and I dont quite like it as much as i did. regards Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 10:36:13 -0500 From: "Craig" Subject: Re: Double-drummers Early Mothers of Invention (mid to late `60s) would often utilized double-drummers. Another essential & mind-blowing entry would be Ornette`s ensemble w/ the astonishing drumming duo of Billy Higgins & Ed Blackwell (Ornette Coleman - "Science Fiction" (1971) ) ......... It`s a jewel! ... Essential listening. CHECK IT OUT! Ed Blackwell has a very aggressive & powerful/heavy 'rock' approach to avant jazz, especially on that record. Reminds one of Stu Martin (McLaughlin, Rypdal, Surman) alot. ~C ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:10:50 +0200 (Hora de verano romance) From: "Alfredo Odriozola" Subject: Double kit Does anyone out there play in a two kit (as opposed to kit and percussion) band? Well, yes, the Allman Brothers. Since the sixties. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:48:27 EDT From: Guitar86rick at aol dot com Subject: Fripp's Solos One of my favorite Fripp solos is the simple-yet-jaw droppingly intense Starless. Spine-tingling. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 02:24:58 +0300 From: Jari Schroderus Subject: Fripp solos One of the most stunning guitar solos Mr Fripp has played on a Crimson album must be on "Requiem". Anyone who knows anything about music has to admit that this Fripp knows his chops, whether they like the music or not. Another totally gorgeous is on "The Night Watch" from SaBB. On Sunday is my first time to see King Crimson live. I'm very exited. And I love the new album. Jari. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 19:43:48 EDT From: Jacbeerbs at aol dot com Subject: Crimso: The Ol' Weedly Deweedly I stand on a soapbox and announce my vintage RF soloing moments: Earthbound: The Sailors Tale, Groon Starless and Bible Black: Fracture, The Great Deceiver Red: One More Red Nightmare, Starless, Providence USA: Asbury Park, 21st Century Schizoid Man, Fracture Discipline: Indiscipline, The Sheltering Sky, Discipline, Frame by Frame Happy With...: Shoganai, Larks' Tongue In Aspic (Part IV) The Power To Believe: The Whole Entire Album My criteria for these bad boys is determined by how soundly my ass is being kicked and how badly I want to grab my equipment and practice. Where for art thou Belewbaloid Crim Best Of? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 00:37:09 -0600 From: "Nick Bennett" Subject: Re: my takes on excellent fripp solos Jonathan Husak said: > - book of saturday (k.c. - the nightwatch live version) > > - leafy meadows (john paul jones - the thunderthief album) > > - chromatic fantasy (robert fripp string quartet - the bridge > between album) RIDICULOUS! > > - blue (r.f.s.q. - the bridge... album) > > - mie gakure (k.c. - happy with what... ep) > > and never more does he fully capture his potential than in... > > -BLOCKHEAD (R.F.S.Q. - THE BRIDGE BETWEEN ALBUM) Great solos all; however, it is actually Trey Gunn playing "Chromatic Fantasy" as a solo piece (on Grand Stick) on The Bridge Between. That's an amazing album, with brilliant playing by all five musicians; I wish more recordings from the RFSQ performances were available. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 03:18:25 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: Rock Percussion > If you are not familiar with the Allmans or the Dead, indeed there > were/are two drummers, but both play exactly the same note at exactly > the same time on exactly the same instrument. I have nothing to say about the Allman Brothers Band, but as for the Dead, whether you like what they do or not, that's not even sort of true. David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 03:21:56 -0600 From: Matthew Sottile Subject: Dual drummers > > From: "paul welsh" > Subject: rock percussion > > But the real deal came with the double trio. I'm > not american but even a brit has to call the drum attack on those > albums > "awesome". Is that the first time two drummers have been used > consecutively > since Hawkwind's "Warrior on the Edge of Time"? To echo a few posts in ET #1129 - the dual drummer feature of the dual trio was definitely not a novel idea. Like others mentioned, both the Dead and Allman Brothers used this approach. Unfortunately, my Allman brothers knowledge extends little beyond the 4 CDs in my racks. On the other hand, the 350+ dead CDs in my collection do have quite an extensive treatment of the good, and bad, times of the Hart/Kreutzmann collaboration. Contrary to one post earlier, the Dead did *not* feature two drummers since their inception. Mickey Hart joined after the band had been together for a bit and had already established a sound. I'm not sure what recordings Mr. MDJSocial at aol dot com has heard, but it rarely was simply two drummers playing the same piece at the same time. Many recordings, particularly of the spacier, drummier parts of late 60's/early 70's instances of Dark Star or The Other One show definite drum portions where Billy is taking the rhythmic part while Mickey goes off into what could be considered a primitive (IE, pre 80s) rhythmic "space". In the 80s, 90s, and in incarnations since '95 where both drummers have found themselves together, the percussion duets were often expanded with Mickey introducing various ethnic percussion instruments and other electronically enhanced doo-dads (such as "the beast"). Anyone who claims Billy and Mickey simply played the same piece in parallel obviously found a recording on one of the rare dates when one of them was either taking the day off or ill. -m (Dead Crim Head) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 07:38:49 -0400 From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Tour Box for Sale I bought a few of these for friends who missed out on the KC show in Denver (cancelled due to snow) and find myself with one extra. Asking what I paid ($40) plus mailing costs ($3.85 in the US via priority mail.) Contact me offlist at markjx at aol dot com Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 09:32:18 -0400 From: "Steve Gibson" Subject: Re: 'Ambient' grammar lessons... I'm not so sure that we want to run the grammar checker against our posts, but in case you agree with Gordy that one should "never" begin a sentence in a post to ET with a conjunction, please consider the following somewhat famous quotes: "And God said, Let there be light; and there was light." -- The Bible "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." -- Mark Twain I'm no English professor, I just know that most "rules" of grammar hardly apply to informal posts in newsletters. They certainly shouldn't be used to start a reply in order to hint that the original poster is some kind of dummy because he or she doesn't know better than to start a sentence with a conjunction. After all, when we're pecking away at these mini-missives, it's easy to mis-type (e.g., "The term is supposed to be have coined by Eno...") or leave out important things like parentheses (e.g., "...conversations from the next room etc. I.e it was partof the ambience") or commas and apostrophes (e.g., "I can't remember which cathedral or which year it came out as I have misplaced my copy but Im pretty sure..."). And, of course, it's entirely possible, when you're correcting someone else, to later make the same mistake yourself (e.g., "But there are clear references to earlier forms...") I know, I know, someone will pick this response apart, too. But I'm ready for that. I'm a grammar dummy with access to a good search engine. And Gordy's research into ambient is entirely relevant and correct and I agree with his premise completely. Peace. Steve gibsonse at nc dot rr dot com PS -- I love TPTB, I just wish my wife would stop whining that I'm playing it too loudly! And what I wouldn't give for a 5.1 version to sink into! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:42:06 -0400 From: "Larry Rader" Subject: twin drummers and other quadrupeds >>Does anyone know of any jazz combos that used two drummers prior to the >>Dead? ORNETTE COLEMAN: FREE JAZZ. THE MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM OF ITS TIME AND MAYBE ANY TIME. With it, ornette launched the modern era in jazz and, arguably, in music in general. 'the ornette coleman double quartet' consisted of two trios, each playing separate free improvs, with ornette soloing over both. The drummers were billy Higgins and ed Blackwell. In ornette's vision (which is still going strong today although he's expanded the vision considerably in the past 40 years and has used many different instrumental formations including quite a bit of electric music), music is played 'harmolodically'. Harmolodic music breaks down the value system among the instruments, thereby taking away any idea of rhythm and lead instruments. Each player is free to improvise as s/he feels, within the structure of the composition. In a sense, they're all soloing at once, but that's a simplistic view. Like all 'out' jazz, it can sound a bit cocaphanous at times, but KC fans should have no problem with that. Ornette changed the landscape for what's considered improvisational music in ways which make him as influential as duke Ellington, miles davis, louis Armstrong, etc. if all of this makes you want to expand your musical horizons in this direction a bit, I'd recommend: 1. ornette coleman the shape of jazz to come (conventional jazz quartet with very modern approach 2. ornette coleman double quartet free jazz (required listening....features eric dolphy, don cherry (neneh cherry and eagle eye cherry's dad), freddy hubbard, Charlie haden, ed Blackwell, billy Higgins 3. ornette coleman and prime time : dancing in your head or body meta (electric harmolodic jazz with jamalaadeen tacuma and Ronald Shannon Jackson among others. Free your mind and your ass will follow tubro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 23:20:06 -0400 (EDT) From: thedukeofprunes at webtv dot net (Mike Worden) Subject: Fripp hanging up his guns? Is the rumour true or just premature? Is Fripp really retiring? Say it isn't so Joe. It has been known Fripp has never been too satisfied with the music business (the business side of it) and he is 56 or 57 years old, but come on, look at The Rolling Stones and all the countless blues musicians who keep going and going. It would really be nice to see a follow up to 'The Power To Believe', the best CD they have done since 'Thrak', I think. But my friends, sadly, all good things must come to an end. It may all be over soon, baby blue. If it isn't, terrific I can stop whining. If it is true, a sad day in music when that day arrives indeed. But what a career and musical catalog to celebrate! Peace, Mike http://community.webtv.net/thedukeofprunes/ ALLTHINGSCRIM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:26:32 -0400 From: BARLETB at Nationwide dot com Subject: Re: Rock Percussion Two drummers? Hasn't anybody thought of Zappa's early bands? Jimmy Carl Black and Arthur Dyer Tripp III? Ralph Humphrey & Chester Thompson? (not to forget the great Ruth Underwood!!!) Speaking of Ralph.. he also was part of one of Don Ellis' BIG bands with another drummer (who's name escapes me at the moment) as well as when Don himself decided to sit and play drums for THREE drummers! (I truthfully DON'T know much about them, I borrowed a live album from a friend several years back and learned this) I would classify this as "Big Band Jazz" but in an EXTREME sort of manner, think of Zappa's Waka/Jawaka or Grand (Petite) Wazoo period..lot's of interesting time sig's and twists and turns, I think most KC fans would like this stuff!!! TO me though, one of the most cohesive double drummer bands where the 2 drummers were actually playing off of each other, would HAVE to be the Grateful Dead...(contrary to what was previously said ...apparently Mr. Jeter hasn't paid much attention to the Jam band scene) I'm not a Deadhead by any stretch of the imagination, but these are two guys that really feed off of each other's energy and playing. They play time together when appropriate, then one would take a left and play counterpoint for a bit, then the other would feed off of that and take the left turn while the other goes back to time...truly a remarkable display of 2 people playing together as one but still playing individually! I can't speak for the Allmans because I haven't seen them live (or on video which is where I noticed the GD boys) I think that Bruf and Pat would have gotten to that to an even FURTHER extent if they were able to continue, I saw some of that, but at times it appeared to be more "rehearsed" and organized in their foray's (ok..we play time together for 32 bars, then you take off for 8, then we'll do another 32 then I'll take off for 8..etc..I get the impression that Bill could tend to be a bit "anal" about things like this). I hesitate to mention the double drumming of 38 Special! (or even hesitate to mention that I've actually heard 38 Special! hahaha!) For some weird reason, I have a craving to drink a Budweiser and take a ride in a pick up?!?!?! Not sure why???? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 06:32:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Douglas Arthur Subject: DGM releases on iTunes? Hey gang, I haven't seent his mentioned here yet but it seems obvious to me that a new form of distribution has opened up. I know I'll get a lot of naysaying from PC users out there but having used it, The iTunes Music Store on the Mac is fantastic and I think the perfect model for future distribution of music. There is actually some KC related music available right now ( some tracks from Thrak, the First Day, and Damage) This method of distribution is still in its early form, but has been enormously successful thus far. I would love to see DGM come up with a distribution deal with Apple for its releases to be made available on iTunes. The majors are asking and getting about 65 cents per download from each 99 cent download from Apple, so this would be a good deal for DGM. They could spend a little extra to become featured artist on the home page. (this tactic worked well with little known electronica band Fischer-Spooner who sold more copies of their downloads than they sold conventionally). A lot of PC naysayers point to the small market share of Apple for this ultimately being a bad idea, but I think otherwise. Consider this...Apple has only a 3-5% market share depending on who you believe... and of that only about 20% are running the most current OS needed for running the Music Store, and still they handled more than 3 million downloads in the first month of operation alone. Apple has promised a Windoze version by years end making this a huge potential audience. One of the neat things about it is that it allows for a 30 second preview of a song before purchasing. Think of all the potential exposure to KC and related artists by making them availble for download on-line through a legitmate service? Fripp and Co. are known to be Mac heads so they must know about this by now. I hope that it is something they are considering. If they want to reach a larger audience, this is a good ticket to ride, in my opinion. I would caution any PC apologist that may consider bashing this to learn about the service first and maybe go to a local Apple dealer to check it out. Nothing is worse than an uninformed opinion. Reading propaganda from a PC magazine is not enough. Okay, I'll shut up now. ===== Tales From The Dougside Comics For People Who Hate Superheroes. www.dougside.50megs.com Anti-Social Lawnmower is coming in 2003! A 200 page compendium of all things Dougside! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:33:06 -0700 From: "Joseph A. DeGregorio" Subject: chromatic fantasy In ET#1129, SJ Hamilton asked: Also, is there a BWV# for Chromatic Fantasy from the Robert Fripp String Quintet? I believe it is BWV903 and the fugue that accompanies it is BWV903A Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:37:54 -0700 (PDT) From: John Sullivan Subject: Dual Drumming, Double Trio Breakup Didn't the original Doobie Brothers (pre-Michael McDonald - you know, when they were still fun) have two drum kits going? Trucks and Jaimoe of the Allman Brothers don't just double up the parts. Most of the time Trucks is playing the more straight-ahead beat, and Jaimoe is doing the jazzy articulations on top of it, though that's oversimplifying it. Turn on the lava light, and put "Mountain Jam" on the headphones. The drumming is surprisingly delicate and complex, Mr. Bruford's sentiments notwithstanding. Tony Levin was booked to do a long tour with Seal when the lastest KC was regrouping, and they decided they couldn't wait for him. The Seal tour was cancelled, but by then KC was well into it, so it was too late for Levin to rejoin. It sounds like he had a relatively quiet year (well, for him) after that, but now he's out touring with Peter Gabriel. I guess all's well that ends well, since the 4-piece KC sounds fantastic, but it's very interesting to speculate on what they would have sounded like with Tony. A little Tony Levin story: A few months ago I engineered a live radio performance by Holly Figueroa. Tony Levin and Jerry Marotta were the rhythm section on her CD (not the live set though). I asked her producer about working with them, and he said you save a lot of money hiring Tony Levin. He listens to the song once, rehearses it once, and records it once. At the end of the day you have an album of fabulous bass parts. I assume this applies to Marotta as well. (And Gordy, "in" is a preposition, not a conjunction, and Anton's sentence looks OK to me. But if anybody wants to start a sentence with a conjunction, or even end with a preposition, I think they should feel free to.) Peace, John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:20:32 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Mastelotto interview >V.K.: One knows the phrase of Robert Fripp that "King Crimson is, as always, more a way of doing things". How can you describe this "way of doing" from your point of view? P.M.: From my point of view its means "pushing while letting go". Leave it to Pat to sum it all up in four words. Awesome dude, thanks for the perspective. >http://homepage.mac.com/billie_/iMovieTheater33.html This is a very exciting sound. Go for it guys! >Long range plans for TU involve pairing up with other like minded experimental duos as "TU plus Two", the first planned collaboration is with our freaky Finnlandish friends from Kluster March 2004. What great news Pat. Thanks for sharing. >I wish they had a time machine to experience the past or future crim they desire+ But as that seems impossible I wish them to arrive to our crim experiences with no expectations. Again, how very well said. Thanks to Vladimir Kalnitsky for posting this interview on ET. - S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:04:26 -0700 From: nic dot roozeboom at philips dot com Subject: Re: takes on excellent fripp solos "- chromatic fantasy (robert fripp string quartet - the bridge between album) RIDICULOUS! " Agreed but not a Fripp solo. The magnificent Trey. Much more great stuff on this album that could forgivably but falsely be attributed to Fripp. Best, Nic ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:14:30 -0700 From: nic dot roozeboom at philips dot com Subject: Help required - looking for scores >>Also, is there a BWV# for Chromatic Fantasy from the Robert Fripp String Quintet? BWV 903 Cheers, Nic ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1130 *********************************