Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1126 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1126 Wednesday, 21 May 2003 Today's Topics: Review of "The Power to Believe" KC in The Hague, bad idea (IMHO) Re: The Crims at North Sea Jazz Festival In the Court of and HDCD Rare Crimson video for sale Re: so many "best drummers" to get a ticket for milano show Bands that Crimheads Might Dig Irony (was Re: Racism) - political correctness in ET - KC alone again or To Dan, about where to start with Zappa RF diary Huzzah for Bruford and Fripp! Drumming Dangerous Curves etc.. Posthumous collections Re: Zappa Re: Dangerous Curves Re: Zappa et al ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:42:51 -0700 From: Shaw Gynan Subject: Review of "The Power to Believe" I have just purchased the latest Crimson release and reviewed it at amazon.com. "The Power to Believe" really does mark another significant milestone in the long trajectory of the King Crimson phenomenon. You can read my review of it and other great ones at that website, but here I'd like to add a few remarks that emphasize different aspects than those mentioned elsewhere. There is much that is classical to the melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic structure of the set. The first iteration of "The Power to Believe" and "Level Five" could be viewed as straightforward and emotionally somewhat detached, deliberate expositions of themes that are subsequently developed and extended emotionally and sonically. Several reviewers are going back to "Discipline" to find a level of musicianship and compositional mastery so high. Some of the past achievements transformed into new songs are from more recent, "Eyes Wide Open," belonging, for example, from a time that doesn't start before "Beat." The introduction to "Elektrik" reminds me of Fripp's abiding interest in classical forms, perhaps most clearly embraced for the first time in "Islands. " To get to the point, however, one may have to go all the way back to find something as good as this. "The Power to Believe" is very carefully crafted, and quite complex, with many interrelating parts. I suppose time will tell whether up until this point this was the best Crimson ever, but I am willing to hazard the opinion that yes, King Crimson has outdone itself. One begins to notice the depth of this work during the sequence of "Facts of Life: Intro," "Facts of Life," "The Power to Believe II," and "Dangerous Curves." This sequence lasts for over 22 minutes and is possessed of an intricate structure on multiples of the levels mentioned earlier. "Facts of Life" blows away the competition in the world of post-metal rock, stating relentlessly and concisely an aesthetic of drive and discipline that is simply not found elsewhere. By the way, you need to return again to the opening side of "Islands " to find a wilder, trilled guitar in the upper registers. "The Power to Believe II" gives me the impression of Balinese gamelan, among other sources, and recalls the wonderful introduction to "Larks' Tongues in Aspic." So here, Fripp combines materials from two of his most inspired pieces, the other being "The Sheltering Sky." What is especially impressive is the subtlety with which the original theme is developed and varied, and indeed it only become totally apparent on the first few listens after Adrian Belew sings a refrain of the original lyrics. The transition from this beautiful piece and "Dangerous Curves" is aided by the use of a long crescendo, well into which one is rocking to music eerily reminiscent of "The Devil's Triangle." Needed comic relief is provided by the sarcastic and virtuosic "Happy with What You Have to be Happy with." Heavier moments of the "Starless" period are revisited in a strong version of "Power," followed by a moving final reprise. The point I hope to have made is that this is the tightest structure ever achieved by King Crimson. You really can't argue the same for the first Crimson recording, because, mainly, of the innocuous, but ultimately rambling improvisation on "Moon Child." There is nary a second of similar opportunities lost on this record. Every moment is accounted for. I submit that it is the best Crimson, ever. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 08:49:03 +0200 From: "christian skina" Subject: KC in The Hague, bad idea (IMHO) The thing that I dont like about the North Sea Jazz Festival The Hague is that during 3 days a salad of jazz bands are presented one after another, like in a cow auction fair. The price of the ticket: very high! One has to buy a ticket for the whole day just to see one band. Then, the running from one theatre to another, be lucky to have the band of your choice not playing at the same time with another favorite one. The "party" atmosphere, sometimes people standing, drinking, smoking (joints, of course) - is not to everyone's like. Let alone the hardcore jazz fan attitude which may hit u in the face. Television, flashing cameras, the festival allows that or at least Ive seen it happening. Im not sure Mr Fripp will enjoy that very much, if he's the same concert Fripp I've known for years. Im afraid I'll pass this one, with great regrets. If I was wrong about all this, I'll regret twice ;-) Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:23:55 +0200 From: "Eddy de Causmaecker" Subject: Re: The Crims at North Sea Jazz Festival According to the magazine (I received today) from the North Sea Jazz Festival over here in Holland, the Crims are playing Saturday July 12th from 1800-1915 hrs. Line-up: Adrian Belew (vocals, guitar); Robert Fripp (guitar); Tony Levin (bass); Pat Mastelotto (drums) So I guess Trey has left the band? Best Wishes, Eddy Flycatcher flycatcher at zeelandnet dot nl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 02:47:19 -0500 From: "George Hook" Subject: In the Court of and HDCD Greetings, and thanks for the great newsletter. I recently upgraded my stereo system with a NAD CD541i, a beautiful machine. Of course, it includes an HDCD encoder. Lark's Tongue in Aspic sounds as if I am just discovering it ... only not on a Zenith stereo system from Sears. I've noticed, however, that Fripp did not remaster In the Court of the Crimson King using HDCD, while all the other albums received the treatment. Can you tell me why? I'm wondering if the master tapes from that album had some technical issue that ruled out HDCD on this particular work. Much obliged. Hope you all saw the recent Gramophone (!) article analyzing the first KC album. George Hook ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:50:55 +0100 From: "david HUDSON" Subject: Rare Crimson video for sale I am selling a promo video made by West 1 Television for Virgin Records. It was made during the recording of Thrak. It contains interviews by the band, footage of rehearsals and some brief live footage. It is approximately 17 minutes long. I have no idea how much it's worth so I will put it on UK Ebay once this post appears. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:50:56 -0500 From: "Craig" Subject: Re: so many "best drummers" >The most impressive drummers that come to my mind first are >Tony Oxley, Paul Lovens, Han Bennink, Gerry Hemingway & John >Stevens - I guess unknown names to many ET-readers..... I`m familiar w/ all but Paul Lovens .......(?). I recently had the opportunity to see Gerry Hemingway perform, ^& that was truly an impressive experience. Yeah, this whole business of "best" is rather ridiculous. ... but hey, let`s not forget Chris Cutler`s electro-acoustic drum/percussion improvs...! (;^O)) ~C ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:36:47 +0200 From: "patrick rossier" Subject: to get a ticket for milano show to get a ticket for the milano show, you must go to a website with the adress:easy tickets ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:03:21 +0100 From: Craig Ward Subject: Bands that Crimheads Might Dig Sometimes it depresses me slightly, all the talk of prog bands and the virtuosity-of-tedious-fusiony-drummers that I find in these newsletters. The qualities in Crim music that excite me, are not qualities that I find in either prog or tedious-fusiony-drumming. Am I the only one who feels this way? Regard Fripp's three-word Crimson manifesto; "Energy, intensity, eclecticism". As Bob has pointed out in his diary recently, at most stages in their history there have been no Crim-like bands. This then we can take to mean that there have been no bands as intense, energetic and eclectic as Crim. Now, you will have noticed (in Britain especially) the exasperating tendency of our splendid tastemakers to dismiss Crim, purely because they were onced tarred with the prog brush (over 30 years ago). This despite the fact that Fripp very publicly divorced himself from the progressive music scene in 1974. That's 1974, gentle readers. The year I started school. Fripp abandoned the prog scene because it sucked and Crim didn't. They didn't belong. They didn't belong anywhere, except where Crim-music lay. And Crim music certainly didn't lie within the world of prog. Moreover, Crim-music has continued, through all its incarnations, to not lie within the confines of any one scene. This is why it's difficult to situate Crim among a group of bands that might be called Bands-that-Crimheads-Might-Dig. Now, there has been a lot of talk of Beefheart and Zappa lately (in this context). This is healthy (even if I am no Zappa fan) and I encourage it. So, in the spirit of continuing this healthy new line of musical enquiry, I'm going to throw in a couple of wild cards from the 80s (eek!), because I feel they embody something of that sense of "energy, intensity (and) eclecticism". I hope it encourages others to do the same. OK, first off - Camper Van Beethoven - Californian 5-piece, released 5 albums between 84 and 89, the best ones being their second, "Camper Van Beethoven II & III", and their third, "Camper Van Beethoven". Wild mixture of ska, psychedelia, eastern european folk music and deadpan surrealism. About as at-home in the 80s as Crim were (ie. not at all). Timeless. Stump - Irish 4-piece, released one album, "A Fierce Pancake" (1988). Famously appeared on the Tube. Unbelievably intense, insane, purveyors of impossible-to-play guitar-bass-drums entanglements, criminally dismissed by many as a "wacky" lunatic fringe band. "Pancake" suffers a little from a very 80s production (loads of chorus on the bass - eeugh), but the band's uncompromising brilliance is still clearly audible. Only two other releases - the "Quirk Out" EP, featuring the sublime Buffalo "How much is the fish? Does the fish have chips?", and the Peel Sessions. Both of these capture the raw intensity of the band a bit more convincingly. All of these are very hard to come by these days. Grab anything you find with both hands. Especially if you're a Beefheart fan. Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:32:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Stok Subject: Irony (was Re: Racism) In ET #1124 Christopher "HeKcman" said: > Steve Moore wrote: > > > > Remember a large proportion of the readers of ET don't 'get' irony > > I think you mean 'sarcasm', not 'irony'. Irony is when you say something > which _later_ turns out to be the opposite of what you expected; sarcasm > is when you _deliberately_ say something which is the opposite of what you > believe. It is nigh impossible to be ironic intentionally. There are different types of irony. I suspect that Steve meant verbal irony and Christopher is thinking of dramatic irony. Sarcasm is an extreme form of verbal irony. Given the email addresses I can understand the misunderstanding; the results of brutal use of verbal irony at work in the UK and the USA produce very different results in my experience. See http://web.uvic.ca/wguide/Pages/LTIrony.html or http://www.ksu.edu/english/baker/english320/cc-verbal_irony.htm Mike -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | GPG PGP Key 1024D/059913DA mike at exegenix dot com | Fingerprint 0570 71CD 6790 7C28 3D60 http://www.exegenix.com/ | 75D2 9EC4 C1C0 0599 13DA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:56:40 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: - political correctness in ET - One reason I enjoy ET is that it's usually free of politically correct peacocks. It's comforting to watch marginally "offensive" posts pass uncensured...but I guess buddy went over the line. And "Buddy went over the line" isn't good enough, is it? no. You pompous pecker picking poseurs have to go ballistic on your manhood (I'm looking at YOU nancy). Please! I know what he meant, you know what he meant, and we know what he said. Can't you just kick him in the ass and laugh it off? Rock music sucks today because people like YOU make it: desperate not to offend; so easily offended. Rock and Roll has to be absolutely "Fuck It"! The Power to Believe is the best ever. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:29:17 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: KC alone again or I started a mini-thread approx. six months ago about going to a KC concert alone. Well hell, I did it you know! I was sick to death (prob. SARS, I live just next to Toronto, eh) and HAD to take the day off work. This just happened to be the day KC were playing at Massey Hall, so I took it as an omen. I had better seats than the last KC show I saw, and they played longer with no opening act. How can it be that I love Elektrik now, what used to be my least favourite of the new tracks, as well as Virtuous Circle (Power to Believe II) - also a least favourite then/love now - and be bored with the ConstruKction songs? Oh well, RF seems to have renewed his apocalyptic attitude at, oh, EXACTLY THIS GIG! I must have given him SARS! It's really not that bad for us Canadians, we have Gov't health care. That's why there's about 25 of us the country with the biggest land mass in the world. We're only 25, but we're fucking invincible! Dave!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:03:30 +0200 From: Roland Bruynesteyn MBA Subject: To Dan, about where to start with Zappa A nice place to start with Zappa would be one of the following: - Absolutely free (hippy / avant-garde, in same vein: Absolutely free, we're only in it for the money) - Hot rats (jazzrock / avant-garde, in same vein: most albums up to, but not including Zoot Allure, 1976) - Burnt weeny sandwich (classical / avant-garde: 200 motels, Weasels ripped my flesh, Ahead of their time Lather and three studio constituent parts) - Live at the Fillmore East, June 1971 (60's pop with Flo and Eddy , an acquired taste, in same vein: Jus another band from LA) - Roxy and elsewhere (this band could play anything) - any album from the '88 shows, probably Best band you never heard in your live first (probably my favourite line up for best band) This leaves you with serious classical music (LSO, Boulez), "collage music" (Lumpy, Psychotics) and synclavier music (Jazz fro hell) for a later date You could also start with the YCDTOSA series (6 double cd's, which give you the chance to try different periods, and experience Zappa's xenochrony at the same time). roland dot bruynesteyn at cmenp dot nl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:21:11 EDT From: Mikewyz at aol dot com Subject: RF diary Greetings: I missed a few RF diary entries last month, would anyone who keeps them (and I know there are a few of you) be willing to send the entries between April 14 and April 30 to me? thanks, MW Mikewyz at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:19:16 EDT From: Jacbeerbs at aol dot com Subject: Huzzah for Bruford and Fripp! Happy Birthday Billy And Bobby! May the road rise to meet you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:28:52 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Drumming >So is John Bonham better than Paul Lovens? Bridge the gap: hire Ian Wallace. >So in a way I don't understand this discussion about the "best" drummer. There are too many of them. I agree sir. - S. np: Galaxy Trio, In the Harem (here's a great drummer who once shook my hand!) scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:40:49 EDT From: Milhouse60 at aol dot com Subject: Dangerous Curves etc.. That track is ferocious. It might be representative of some relationships (like what Shane said... he got me thinking); I like that idea. Dangerous Curves could also be characterized as kinky forbidden sex... which would explain why the song is so tense and why the song hangs on the last note and than slowly dies off. Whatever Dangerous Curves is, I sure wouldnt want to drive around blasting it... it has the intensity of Talking Drum and Red and stuff on the Wake of Poseidon.... I am excited about Adrian Belew's side project/band. They might play some scarey stuff. Anyone big fans of Robert Fripp's Gates of Paradise? I havent heard much of his solo stuff but that album is incredible. Here's my story that relates to the album: One time me and my friend hooked up his electric guitar to a bunch of synths (delay, reverb, chorus, distortion....) and then we improvised some music. I dont know how to play guitar but I do know which notes are high and which ones are low. So anyways I played guitar and focused my mind into creating a well balanced song... the result was a spine-tingling recreation of the outer darkness and redemption (yes it actually sounds good- not just my opinion). Some day I will upload the song to the internet... I will report back to elephant-talk the day I do! One more thing... what do you all think about electronic music? Do you think it is stupid because it is so unnatural and because most people hate techno? Eminem hates techno and then half of America hates techno...sheesh! Making music on my computer is very enjoyable... but where is electronic music going... please say it's not a dead art! I found something I'm real good at. I personally dont like much House, Trance, and Jungle but IDM, DrumNBass, and Ambient can be very good. Ambient in particular... But what kind of record label would sign up an ambient artist... you gotta be a jack of all trades before your ambient work is recognized... I could be wrong. IT is to bad... I have only been making ambient music (occasionally with good beats- reminiscent of Boards of Canada I suppose). Any Autechre fans out there? ITs easy to find similarities between them and King Crimson but they are two totally different genres. Oh, one more thing. IF you ever want to hear the scariest music ever don't pop Thrakattack in your boombox (what I did to scare kids on Halloween), rather buy some Venetian Snares... techno that would knock the socks off of uhhh GWAR. More nerve-racking than Trout Mask Replica on a first listen! Despite the ferocity, Venetian Snares remains intelligent and focused. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:29:51 +0100 From: Mr Tea Subject: Posthumous collections This from Alan Gent in Elephant Talk #1125: [Recommending 'FZ plays FZ' as s starting point for Zappa neophytes...] > This was the first posthumously produced album and consists of Franks best > guitar solos played by him. So, something to look forward to when Unka Bob pops his clogs, then (if he's not, in fact, immortal, that is..). Which begs the question... what are the essential Fripp solos? Obviously, there's the incendiary performance on 'Sailor's Tale' (from Islands) and the gloriously single-minded crescendo that drives the second part of 'Starless' (from Red). And looking outside the Crimson canon, there's that delicious 'Wimbourne guitar' solo on Eno's 'Golden Hours' (fro Another Green World) and the contemplative compendium of Fripp stylings gathered in 'Blue'(on RFSQ's The Bridge Between). But that's still several solos short of a career retrospective. Perhaps other ET subscribers could help to beef up this list with some other twang-tastic suggestions... Nick pp Mr Tea -- The Tea Caddy: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:29:49 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: Zappa A lot of suggestions have been given about the best place to start exploring the Frank Zappa catalog. Zappa was such a diverse artist/composer that I suspect there are as many suggestions as to where to start as there are Zappa albums! My suggestion would be to simply start at the beginning and proceed chronologically buying just one album at a time. This allows the listener to not only experience the music of Zappa, but the growth of Zappa as someone who collected him from the beginning was able to experience. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 07:58:51 -0700 From: "Joseph A. DeGregorio" Subject: Re: Dangerous Curves In ET #1125 Shane Otis states how the slow buildup and other strutures within Dangerous Curves off of TPTB mirror a relationship he had with a woman and used the slow buildup as one example of the way the relationship developed: This track reminds me of a relationship with a woman that I had that ended not too long ago. It's a great entry into this newsletter, Shane. I agree and think so much of Crimson's music reflects a great dieal of emotions running the gamut from great joy to profound sadness. It would be great to see other people's examples of how a Crimson song tied in with their personal feelings and experiences. At around 4:00, it cools down a bit. You can only heat up so much before you need to cool it down to regain that intensity. So c'mon people, share your experiences! Take care, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:42:23 -0400 From: Brian Preston Subject: Re: Zappa et al It's hard to imagine that in future generations Frank Zappa would NOT be listed among the top composers of the 20th century. Trite perhaps, but true none-the-less. Last weekend in fact the famous Apostrophe was played and re-played in my car on the way to and returning from a mountain camping trip by my eleven year old son who has memorized most of the first few famous tracks! Its really a hoot to hear him singing St. Alphonso's Pancake Breakfast around the camp fire with 5 of his buddies and their Dad's looking on in wonderment. "Somebody stole the margarine..." Of course I'd like to think that Uncle Bobby & company would be listed in that company also. One recommendation though: before you expose your pre-teen to Frank's work, a quick run through for the explicit lyrics that you may not recall until it's too late is advised! ************************************************************************ Brian Preston/Metaphoric Music Productions Smokin'Granny http://meta4ik.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/smokingranny2 (sound files) Krimson News Radio http://www.live365.com/stations/crim75 (SG in rotation) Onomata http://www.umbrellarecordings.com/feature.html Groove Stream Attractor http://hometown.aol.com/tjohn62124/groovestreamattractor.html http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue20/groove01.html ******** ******** ******** ******** "When people are coupled together through musicking, each steers his or her own raft of subjectivity into the collective sea of neurodynamics." William Benzon in 'Beethoven's Anvil: Music in Mind & Culture' ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1126 *********************************