Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1124 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1124 Thursday, 15 May 2003 Today's Topics: Zappa/racism Re: black toast (tool) musicians/audience MTV Loves Money, Hates Crimson - Naturally!! greatest live band... I I Talk to the wind Retirement? Capt. Beefheart Reusing Rap YPG2 Zappa! drum duos for the Zappa fan to be some nonsense MTV Re: Theories about Gurdjieff's sources Belewbaloid Lyric Supremacy. Beefheart, other good stuff, & Fripp Re: Racism Zappa albums ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:33:02 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: Zappa/racism Best Frank Zappa album for newbies? Well, I personally got started on 1984's underrated Them or Us, which has (IMO) the most astounding piece of music Zappa ever wrote on it - Sinister Footwear II. But you would be just as well starting off with either The Grand Wazoo (sublime jazz) if you're into the instrumental side of things, or Broadway the Hard Way (political and scatalogical humour) if you're into satire. Actually, Zappa's first proper album, 1965's Freak Out, is still eminently listenable. Coincidentally, I had the good fortune to see original Mother of Invention Jimmy Carl Black perform last week, singing with the world's greatest Zappa tribute band, the Muffin Men. It was great! And they played a couple of Captain Beefheart numbers too, with Jimmy standing in for the Captain. Now, as for all the fuss about Stamperdanny's idiotic post - look, the fact we've all criticised it is exactly why it SHOULD have been allowed to go out. That's the Right to Free Speech, which is all too often suppressed in favour of a non-existent Right Not to Be Offended. It's the lifeblood of debate and discussion, and the cornerstone of democracy. Rather than responding to Stamperdanny's assertions about race and entertainment myself, I'd like to quote Miles Davis instead, who put it much better than I ever could: 'I hate to talk about what I think of the mess because my friends are all colors. When I say that some of my best friends are white, I sure ain't lying. The only white people I don't like are the prejudiced white people. Those the shoe don't fit, well, they don't wear it. I don't like the white people that show me they can't understand that not just the Negroes, but the Chinese and Puerto Ricans and any other races that ain't white, should be given dignity and respect like everybody else. 'But let me straighten you - I ain't saying I think all Negroes are the salt of the earth. It's plenty of Negroes I can't stand, too. Especially those that act like they think white people want them to. They bug me worse than Uncle Toms. [...] 'Negroes used to be servants and Uncle Toms in the movies. But so much stink was raised until they quit that. Now you do have some Negroes playing feature parts - maybe four or five a year. Most of the time, they have a role that's special so it won't offend nobody - then it's a big production made like that picture is going to prove our democracy. [...] 'This black-white business is ticklish to try to explain. You don't want to see Negroes every time you click on your set. That would be just as bad as now when you don't see nobody but white people.' [...] ' It's a lot of the Negro musicians mad because most of the best-paying jobs go to the white musicians playing what the Negroes created. But I don't go for this, because I think prejudice one way is just as bad as the other way. I wouldn't have no other arranger but Gil Evans - we couldn't be much closer if he was my brother. And I remember one time when I hired Lee Konitz, some colored cats bitched a lot about me hiring an ofay in my band when Negroes didn't have work. I said if a cat could play like Lee, I would hire him, I didn't give a damn if he was green and had red breath.' [...] 'I ain't scared of nothing or nobody, I already been through too much. I ought to be dead from just what I went through when I was on dope. I ain't going around anywhere trying to be tough and a racist. I just say what I think, and that bugs people, especially a lot of white people. When they look in my eyes and don't see no fear, they know it's a draw.' [Interview with Miles Davis in Playboy magazine, September 1962] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:28:26 -0700 From: "Malcolm" Subject: Re: black toast (tool) d. chinn writes: 'Tool employ a post-Nirvana/Metallica element of punk howl and primal scream (as well as simplified musical shapes), play Marilyn Manson-style games with extreme imagery, morbidity and arty shock value...a tormented psychosexual performance artist in a diaper being menaced by CGI monsters from the Id.' I'm sorry, but I believe you've completely missed the boat with this band. These generalizing, oversimplified observations are simply not accurate. There's an emotional and spiritual depth to this band that you're either failing to recognize or choosing to ignore. Either way, you're missing out... in my opinion. -J- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:21:37 +0100 From: "paul welsh" Subject: musicians/audience I dare say that this idea won't go down too well, and I have to confess to being a muso myself, but how's about the notion that people in Mr.F's position occasionally get sick of playing for musicians and then having every action and and its motive picked over in minute detail in public by said musicians? I know I enjoy spotting musicians at my gigs watching every move my fingers make (if I know I'm playing well), but I much prefer it when they dance or just listen! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:57:55 EDT From: EricVWDC at aol dot com Subject: MTV Loves Money, Hates Crimson - Naturally!! In a message dated 5/10/03 6:42:06 PM, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: >Toby, feel free to unsubscribe me from this list if you agree with the >writer, otherwise I expect an apology for letting this kind of tripe slip >through and given voice. > >Duty now for the future, > >---Douglas Arthur > Wow. I cannot believe what a bunch of pussies some of you ET subscribers are! Toby, donat EVEN begin to worry about offending some of your ET subscribes for including that hilarious post from StamperDanny. When I was 15, I used to take my 2 year-old sister to church with me. It was just the two of us. She was a little hyperactive, and would try to stand up and climb around. Iad tell her, "Sit, Nicole, sit!", and shead stand up and mimic me by shouting "SHIT! SHIT!" Anyone in the congregation who was offended by her remarks should have had their heads examined. She was 2. She was ignorant. Anyone subscribing to ET who doesnat realize that StamperDanny is totally ignorant of the process of commerce, and the fact that MTV is simply aiming for the highest ratings possible, and that they couldnat care less about promoting true art, needs to go take a permanent vacation to a little liberal, politically-correct island somewhere in the Aleutian chain. By the way, Nellyville is a great CD, for all of yaall out dere who listen to dat def nigga shit!! WORD muthufuckas! -Groooooooooooooovy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:47:42 +0200 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: greatest live band... good evening hippies, to whom this may concern: "Who's the greatest live band on Earth? The editors at Rolling Stone Magazine have come up with a list of 100 performers who are currently touring or have toured within the last two years and they'd like you to select the ONE who puts on the best show. The results will be printed in an upcoming special issue of Rolling Stone. Go to: http://www.rollingstone.com/bestlive " greetings roderich ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:42:04 BST From: Andy Macdonald Subject: I I Talk to the wind My way of playing 'I Talk to the wind': The E is played as normal, Em with G bass on 6th, Gmaj7 like Bm with G bass on 6th (miss out or dampen 5th and 1st strings), F#m7sus4 is like F#m but top two strings left open. E Em Gmaj7 F#m7sus4 B7 Said the straight man to the late man, "Where have you been?" E Em/G G F#m B "I've been here and I've been there, and I've been in between." E F#m7sus4 E F#m7sus4 E F#m7sus4 I talk to the wind, my words are all carried away, I talk to the wind, Am6 B7 Am6 B7 The wind does not hear, the wind cannot hear. -- Andy Macdonald Tel: 01484 422032 Mobile: 07932 635057 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:49:09 -0300 (ART) From: Ronald Miklos Vogel Subject: Retirement? Hi everyone Fripp is now almost 57. Life on the road is pretty tough and he's been complaining about it for a long time. Just read his old diary entries. OK, crim life is not only made os concerts, but even recordings and rehearsals are overseas. DGM itself alone is work enough. Rich he says he is not, so DGM and KC provides his incomes. DGM is near home and KC is always too much work outside his home and away from his beloved wife. I doubt I'd like to work same way I'm doing now in 15 years when I'll be 57. Ronald Vogel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:41:13 -0700 (PDT) From: RS Subject: Capt. Beefheart Anyone hear know how to get a copy of Lick MY Decals Off Baby? It is out of print. Could someone make me a copy? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:42:56 -0300 From: "Diego Navarro" Subject: Reusing >The thing is, the moments I remember of the >'new songs' sound alot like parts of 'old' Crimson >tunes! Oh well, when an idea is great, use it every 15 >or 20 yrs or so! You could always read that as smarty post-modernish self-referenec. And isn't multiple layers of reference what culture's all about? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:48:13 EDT From: Inturmoil at aol dot com Subject: Rap Just remember, you can't spell crap without rap. Also, I wouldn't call it "black" music. I'd call it ignorant music. [ Before you and scream and rant, gentle ETers, please note the poster's handle. The poor chap/chapess is "in turmoil". Let's be kind to him/her, and in this business, "ignoring" is often the kindest approach, IMHO. --Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:59:53 -0400 From: BARLETB at Nationwide dot com Subject: YPG2 Zappa! Truthfully..before you go out and buy everybody's favorite Zappa album (actually you should start and Freak Out and then buy each one after until you buy the latest release) you should try the "compilations" that Ryko has released Strictly Commercial has most of the "rock" hits, Strictly Genteel has the "orchestral based" hits... Ryko also has a few other comps out there first are the "Cheep Thrills" and "Son of Cheep Thrills" discs, and the 2 discs that Larry LaLonde from Primus and Jon Fishman from Phish "programmed" with their favorite Zappa tracks... All of these have a better over view of his music, and you can go from there, rather than everyone spout off their favorite disc. If you're "ambitious" you would just go buy the 12 disc (6 2 disc volumes) You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore? series and be done with it...ALL the Zappa you'll ever need!!!! Have fun! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:15:21 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: drum duos > From: Etude17 at aol dot com > Subject: Greatest drummers impact Let's not forget Chester Thompson and Phil C, who did some mighty fine live work together once upon a time ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:17:18 +0200 From: "christian skina" Subject: for the Zappa fan to be There is no such thing as The Young Person guide to Frank Zappa! Zappa is just for adults. And if you survived my superior snobbery, here's the rest of my opinion. Try to stay away from Zappa's music. It's like trying to approach a wild lion. If his music comes to you in some way, then it's a good sign you can play any of his records. I never understood why a band such as King Crimson would be musically motivated to release a "best of". I don't think Zappa ever did. a) In the 70 he started already with complex classical compositions. Maybe it's not such a good idea to listen first to large orchestra music. He was good at everything he did; the amount of music he wrote I suppose it makes it very difficult for anyone to really "get the Zappa". I prefer his guitar solos and symphonic pieces. But some dirty tracks are also a big delight. His humour is something that only Mr Belew tried to bring on stage (no wonder he was a Zappa player). Just like the Crimson recent years releases (loads of), Zappa transcends the casual listening session. One needs to prepare for the moment of diving in his sound world. b) Both KCrimson and Zappa composed some easy listening too, songs that can be hummed, etc. I think one should certainly not start with those either. So, what's left? Not much. Maybe reading first his book would be a better idea. Or eating a doughnut, as the master used to say. Greetings, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:14:43 -0400 From: Dan Buxbaum Subject: some nonsense If Mr. Fripp is possibly(?) retiring/exiting King Crimson, then there's hope that Robert & Toyah will have the time to commence work on their new double-cd concept album, 'I Was Kicked Off "I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out of Here", subtitled 'The Lady or the Clean Toothbrush'. -- Seriously, everybody who hasn't yet should really acquire the current ProjeKct One Collectors Club cd, it is mixed superbly, edited skillfully, and is a wonderful listen. (It is also quite "Frippian" in that all applause is missing, and ends suddenly on a RF midi-xylo/vibes note.) Serious/Fun/Intense/But With Space--become my fav CC disc. (Cool farty noises & gurgles and sampled words from Trey too.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:46:31 EDT From: Guitar86rick at aol dot com Subject: MTV You can hardly find any music at all on MTV these days. If I'm flipping channels and happen to land on MTV, about the only thing I ever see is some Real World episode, which I despise. They should change their name or something. I wouldn't mind if they jsut played bad music, but they rarely do show any kind of music anymore. Rick P.S. Jazz, Blues, Rock, Funk: Davis, Hendrix, BB King, Christian, Montgomery, Ellington... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:43:56 -0700 (PDT) From: gregory kester Subject: Re: Theories about Gurdjieff's sources In issue #1121 David Ryan wrote: ....."Thanks also for wisely using your crimson platform to lead many to Gurdjieff and thence possibly to his deepest roots Orthodox Christianity". I remember reading Gurdjieff's own words on the subject, so I decided to share them with ET. They might help clarify the subject. Gurdjieff spoke alot about Christianity in Ouspensky's book "In Search of the Miraculous". He said "The Christian Church, the Christian form of worship, was not invented by the fathers of the church. It was all taken in a ready-made form from Egypt, only not from the Egypt that we know but from one which we do not know. This Egypt was in the same place as the other but it existed much earlier." "It will seem strange to many people when I say that this prehistoric Egypt was "Christian" many thousands of years before the birth of Christ, that is to say, that it's religion was composed of the same principles and ideas that constitute true Christianity." He told Ouspensky "The teaching whose theory is here being set out is completely self-supporting and independent of other lines and it has been completely unknown up to the present time." Gurdjieff, in "Meetings with Remarkable Men", made a rather big deal of meeting an Armenian monk possessing an ancient map of "Pre-Sand Egypt". Whether that's literal, metaphor, clue, or some other meaning I don't know. The teaching is currently being attributed to Sufi and Christian sources, while Jesuits, Sufis, pop-Psychologists and Kabala people vie with one another to claim Gurdjieff's Enneagram. If it's true that Gurdjieff brought the Universal teaching, maybe the source teaching, it's not surprising that elements of the teaching would be found in modern Christianity, Sufism, the Kabbala, etc... They may be derived from the ancient Fourth Way, rather than it being derived from any of them, as commonly believed! Gurdjieff is also known to have said "If you like, you can call this Esoteric Christianity". I think that's more a declaration of the universality of the teaching rather than a claim of Christian sources. Respecfully, Greg Kester Oakland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:09:10 EDT From: Jacbeerbs at aol dot com Subject: Belewbaloid Lyric Supremacy. Dave's got a great point about The Lyrics. Adrian's lyrics for that song probably mean the most to me out of all of the CrimWords right now. They say so much so accurately and in a way that kind of pops you on the top of your skull. Not to mention the way the entire piece really lets you know who the metal boss is on the metal scene around here. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:16:17 +0100 From: Roger Shannon Subject: Beefheart, other good stuff, & Fripp Another really good album from the captain is 'Spotlight Kid', which is more of a kind of cut & paste blues/syncopated affair - Click Clack features the most mind bogglingly groovy timechange around. (the more musical of you may correct me on this fine point of theory. However, it sounds fantastic.) DON'T get Bluejeans & Moonbeams though. Another, unfortunately totally overlooked, band which may be of interest were the Shockheaded Peters, led by Karl Blake from the Lemon Kittens (Danielle Dax's band). Terribly recorded, bought by no-one but completely deranged and clearly Crimson-influenced. Their great problem was they started in about 82-83, played an appalling stink of angular, diminished scale, too-loud guitar coupled with loops etc and so were utterly ignored in the face of Haircut 100's 'Fantastic Jumper', or Pete Sinfield's 'The Land of Make Believe'. And they were very ugly. Their albums are totally deleted now, but the best was the 1st, 'Not Born Beautiful', and their debut EP, 'I Bloodbrother Be'. Could Robert Fripp's impending retirement be in any way connected with the recent revelation that one of Tony Blair's favourite songs is 'Schizoid Man'? I have a mental image of him watching live footage from Iraq while listening to 'Blood racked barb wire, politician's funeral pyre, Innocents raped with napalm fire...' on his walkman. That would be enough to make me retire. cheers, Splodger PS please no more comments on there being too much black music. Take away the international influence from pop music and what's left? Not even skiffle. The whole thing's about culture clash. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:08:04 -0700 From: "Proginoskes" Subject: Re: Racism Steve Moore wrote: > > Remember a large proportion of the readers of ET don't 'get' irony I think you mean 'sarcasm', not 'irony'. Irony is when you say something which _later_ turns out to be the opposite of what you expected; sarcasm is when you _deliberately_ say something which is the opposite of what you believe. It is nigh impossible to be ironic intentionally. -- Christopher "HeKcman" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:18:43 CET From: fnt at eivissa dot vilaweb dot com Subject: Zappa albums Dan Bailey asked some advise in introducing himself to the Zappa universe. Taking his personal musical tastes (he names several bands from the 70s), this would be my advise (only a few albums to begin with): "One size fits all" 1975 "Sheik Yerbouti" 1979 (live album featuring A. Belew) "The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life (2CD live 1988) He should also check out the "Does Humor Belong In Music?" live video from 1986. -------- http://www.paisoscatalans.org/perfect-pair ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1124 *********************************