Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1072 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1072 Monday, 16 December 2002 Today's Topics: John Wetton on XM-acoustic set-this week King Crimson on XM Radio this week Gabriel tour vs. Krim "Evening Star" "Evening Star" Virtuous Circle / Re: Femme... ProjecKct Two, etc. and expectations Re: Devil's Triangle / Mars Sid Smith Re: Mars/Devil's Triangle First Day outakes Did I Miss Something? Peter Gabriel Live and Sheik Yerbouhti Gabriel/Rolling Stone Magazine Another Chorus... Underground metal: the real modern day prog Peter Gabriel, Ticket Prices, and Progress Re: We've got them all Re: 'this night wounds time' Re: We've all got 'em. KC lecture (long mail) Re: Devil's Triangle / Mars ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:51:09 -0800 From: "Patrick Gaudin" Subject: John Wetton on XM-acoustic set-this week For those of you who like John Wetton, he will be doing an acoustic set on XM Satellite Radio this week, Wednesday at 8pm eastern time, on channel 104, Fine Tuning. He will be live in the studio, so it should be rather interesting. Not that it wouldn't be otherwise, but just saying. Patrick Gaudin Rochester, NY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:46:34 -0800 From: "Patrick Gaudin" Subject: King Crimson on XM Radio this week For those of you who have XM Satellite Radio (or know someone who does), King Crimson will be on Deep Tracks this coming Thursday, Dec 19th, at 10 PM eastern time. Deep Tracks has a show called "Live At The BBC", and this is the program Crimson will be on. I'm not sure what era of Crimson this will be since they don't detail that info on their site. This may the show where Fripp does a lap steel version of "Achey Breaky Heart" by Billy Ray Cyrus (Ok, was kidding about that last comment). Patrick Gaudin Rochester, NY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:40:33 -0500 From: "Ken Montgomery" Subject: Gabriel tour vs. Krim Heres my 2 cents on the Peter Gabriel Growing Up tour. First off, I cant believe there have been negative comments on these live shows. I drove down to see the show at the Mohegan Sun Casino Arena (CT). It was simply one of the best live rock shows I have ever seen. Even better than the last PG tour. Great band, great staging, fantastic dramatic visual effects, awesome song selection, excellent soundwhat more could you ask for? (those complaining about Ged Lynch are insane- he absolutely kicked a** and was perfect for this tour). A heavier drummer than Manu was a great change and made many of the songs sound fresh and new. Melanie Gabriel was probably the weakest link and she was fine (actually, more unnecessary than weak). The band was great from top to bottom(note the shameless T-Lev pun). There were some excellent comments in the recent post from Peter Schindler. The only negative I could see with the Mohegan Sun show was that the audience was sparse, which somehow was distracting when contrasted with the powerful stage show. Peter Schindler said it was 25-35% empty. This is accurate. Very depressing. Perhaps it was the ticker price- I paid for the expensive seats ($118 with service charge) and felt it was worth it. I think it was a combination of this pricing and the fact that Peter hasnt had a hit in years and the excellent Up album is getting zero airplay. It is one of the best PG albums ever but isnt very radio friendly. OK, heres the Krim connection- this show pointed out to me what was wrong with the past Krim tour. It was like the band (except for Adrian) didnt give a crap about the audience. The music was interesting and challenging, as always, but there was no connection with the audience. I dont expect Fripp to bounce around the stage in a giant inflatable ball, and work the crowd into a frenzy (as Peter Gabriel). But he took the hermit guitarist thing too far last time sitting way in the back illuminated only by the lights of his rack effects (this is completely accurate for anyone who saw the last tour). Also, the PG sound blew away Krim and PG played in an arena (!) This is inexcusable. On the other hand, the TCOL tour was fantastic AND the band connected directly and powerfully with the audience (plus the sound was much better). So we know they can do it Oh, well, Im tired of typing. The END. BTW- Peter actually introduced T-Lev as the emperor of the bottom end- a great moniker! Monty ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:47:29 -0500 From: Dan Buxbaum Subject: "Evening Star" Oh how i love the guitar solos in "Evening Star". --- -- P.S. I just ordered Adrian's 'Electronic Guitar' vid. (Anybody who has this care to comment upon it--maybe we'll get some interesting guitar analysis/approaches going on here on E-T.) [ I have this vid... interesting and fun. But wow it is OLD. 1985 is it? -- Toby] P.P.S. I think BILGFORD (or is that BULGFORD) should do an album with MALCOLM XERXES! -- "You better buy yourself an electric guitar; you better play, there's no other way to beat the blues... I beat 'em!" -- Pete Townshend ("My Baby Gives It Away") ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:14:40 +1100 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: Virtuous Circle / Re: Femme... firstly; fs dot info at c2i dot net asks; > Who will be the first female musician in King/Queen >Crimson and when will it happen? I don't think this will ever happen, but we have come close thrice... 1. Judy Dyble circa 1968 joins Giles, Giles & Fripp and cuts a demo of (amongst other things) their new song I Talk To The Wind. See GG&F's "The Brondesbury Tapes" CD available on Voiceprint http://www.voiceprint.org.uk (also on The Young Person's Guide To KC of course) 2. Paulina Lucas circa 1971 contributes soprano backing vocals to KC's "Islands". http://www.disciplineglobalmobile.com 3. Julie Tippetts circa 1972 (almost). In a bid to rescue what was fast becoming a lost cause, following the departure of Peter Sinfield from the Crimson camp, RF asks Keith Tippett if he'd like King Crimson & The Keith Tippett Group to become a united creative force, with Julie Tippetts as a full time member too. Sadly KT rejected the offer on creative differences (though he did say he was very flattered) (source: Sid Smith's In The Court Of King Crimson http://www.helterskelterbooks.com). Anyone interested in hearing something approximating what this endeavour might have sounded like should immediately check out Julie Tippetts' Sunset Glow available on Voiceprint (link above). (btw, this is my favourite album at the moment, and has been for a long time now, a forgotten killer/gem) Other than those three, we can only stretch our imagination while listening to Toyah/Fripp/Gunn's Sunday All Over The World, or Ms Roches parts on RF's Exposure. secondly; With Happy/Shogonai released & the full tracklisting available for The Power To Believe (and a couple of nice teaser reviews from advance copies) all I want to know is, whatever happened to A Virtuous Circle? O! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:00:24 -0500 From: J A Sontag Subject: ProjecKct Two, etc. and expectations The concept of expectations has always been grist for the ET mill; some follow Robert's oft-quoted dictum (i.e. don't have any expectations), while some feel that, if you are going to release things under a well-known name (i.e. King Crimson) there are certain expectations that are permissible. The former dictum focuses on the idea of absolute freedom, while the second focuses on preventing a type of fraud (in the broadest sense of the word - please understand this, and don't get angry, now!). To me, while Robert and Co. have preached the former, they have acted more upon the premise of the latter. Thus ProjeKct 2 was not initially released as King Crimson; and this should have been a clear sign to anyone who would purchase it that they really should not have an expectation of KC. The ProjeKct box was released as KC; but here both P1 and P4 are clearly in the Double Trio - Double Duo KC mode, and much of the P2 and P3 material was in the process of being molded into the KC framework (as would be seen on TCOL). Similarly, both "Level 5" and "Happy" are very clearly KC, as the fan of (the modern) KC would recognize it. What is interesting is the number of people who seem to, whatever may be said, obviously still equate the members of KC with KC itself, especially when Robert is involved. Otherwise, there would be no basis for someone to be surprised or disappointed that ProjeKct Two didn't sound like KC. Now, one has the absolute right not to like P2; but it shouldn't be on the basis that it isn't KC. For myself, I loved "Space Groove", especially the first disk; it showed Robert, Ade, and Trey going into a jazz-like area that no KC incarnation had even attempted since the Mel Collins era. Similarly, "Level 5" and "Happy" are, to me, mostly utterly predictable rehashings of TCOL - but you can't say it doesn't "sound like" KC. So maybe the dictum should now be - if it is called KC, have expectations that it will "sound like" KC; while if it is called something else, do not expect KC, even if it is Robert, Ade, Trey, and Pat - at least until Robert decides to totally demolish the band, and start over with a completely new KC lineup. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:50:28 EST From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Re: Devil's Triangle / Mars Michel Champagne wrote: >Laurent Masse writes: >>The Devil's Triangle would have been called Mars had they obtained the >>right to use the name back in 1970. > >Hmmmm, forgive me if I appear to sound condescending, but you say that >as though you have it on good authority . . . is this perhaps only your >opinion? Sid Smith writes, in his impeccably researched _In The Court Of King Crimson_, "After Crimson were told by EG that any request to the estate of Gustav Holst to quote directly from 'Mars' would likely be refused, some slight re-writing was required and the track had to be retitled." In 1973, the Holst estate granted permission for Manfred Mann's Earth Band to use the "Jupiter" theme for their "Joybringer" single (while simultaneously forcing the Irish band Fruupp to withdraw a track from their _Future Legends_ LP at the last minute because it quoted from "Jupiter"). This was the first time a rock band had been formally granted permission to use Holst's music, although the British band Sands managed to sneak in a quote from "Mars" on "Listen To The Sky" as far back as 1967, and the Mothers Of Invention included a theme from "Jupiter" on their _Absolutely Free_ LP the same year. Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:18:11 +0000 From: Craig Ward Subject: Sid Smith "Unless of course Sid Smith has already collected this info and it will all (eventually) find a home in the apparently forthcoming KC encyclopaedia . . . ?" Is the tome only out in the UK or something? Why am I the only person who seems to have read it? Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:10:46 +0000 From: Craig Ward Subject: Re: Mars/Devil's Triangle In the tome, Sid Smith is quite clear about it all. For The Devil's Triangle, Fripp took Mars and changed the notes sufficiently for it to cease being Mars. It became TDT in response to the permission-refused problem, not despite it. Hope this clarifies. Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:32:25 -0000 From: "Tim Rosser" Subject: First Day outakes Dear ET, Do any of you know the status of the 'missing' material from the Sylvian / Fripp 'First Day' sessions? As I understand it there is nearly an albums worth of music which was not included on 'TFD' as it apparently sat to softly against the harder edged material which made it onto the record (And A wonderful record it is too!). I Had the good fortune to ask RF about this at a record signing in Manchester about 5 years ago, and he told me that Virgin had the recordings under lock and key to be issued as and when the Sylvian / Fripp partnership was to be re-kindled. I'm hoping that by now they might be prepared to cut their losses and just put it out, especially as Sylvian is now no longer under contract with Virgin! Do any of you have a more recent update? Regards Tim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:59 -0500 From: "josh chasin" Subject: Did I Miss Something? In ET #1070, "FS Info" asks: > Who will be the first female musician in King/Queen Crimson and when will > it happen? Have you so soon forgotten about the divine song stylings of Jon Anderson on Lizard? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:55:15 -0800 From: Adrian Cockcroft Subject: Peter Gabriel Live and Sheik Yerbouhti Interesting to see two parallel threads on ET that are tied together in my memories. I was at the Knebworth (UK) festival in 1979, where the lineup was Zappa (inc. Belew) doing the Sheik tour, PG (Inc. Levin) plus the Tubes and a few other bands. I don't know if that was how they met, but I'm sure someone on ET can look it up... It was my first Zappa exposure, I remember the Dylan skit and bought Sheik (and subsequently a lot more Zappa). I think it was PG's first solo tour, I remember he had a huge pink plush teddy bear on stage at one point. I don't remember much of the music at the gig, although I had all the Genesis and PG records at the time. The Tubes were fun, blowing up cars on stage and messing about with chainsaws. (Don't touch me there and White Punks on Dope is all I can remember of their songs). I'd like to see PG again, but the last gig I went to at a Stadium (San Jose) was such an awful sound that I will never go to a gig there again. I wish he was on at the Warfield, like KC last time around. Adrian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:36:42 EST From: EBotti at aol dot com Subject: Gabriel/Rolling Stone Magazine Rolling Stone Magazine, in its "Year End" edition placed Peter Gabriel's "Up" as one of the worst albums of the year. Its hard to believe these people actually get paid to review music. These are the same people that praise "artists" such as Eminem, J'Lo, and Puffy something or other. What ever happened to that magazine. During the hay day of rock, they were there to frame some great events and albums, now, they seem like the MTV of the printed word - sell outs to urban, hip hop garbage. Personally, I think "UP" is a little to complicated and sophisticated for the Rolling Stone/MTV generation to understand. Ed B. New Jersey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:20:02 -0800 From: "H b" Subject: Another Chorus... Solstice greetings to all: Just a quick note to follow up on a few thoughts. My first experience with Genesis was 'Trick Of The Tail', which came out when I was a freshman in high school. I still love this album very much, as I do 'Wind And Wuthering'. Everything beyond these release drift off into P.Collins poppiness. (Pity, as the Brand X material showed that the bloke could beat some skins). I subsequently went back and absorbed all the earlier material. HWWYHTBHW- The more I listen to it, the more I like it. In fact, the particular mix on "Eyes Wide Open" is particularly noteworthy! Looking forward to the full release and tour. Gearheads- It warms my heart to see all the cool analog gear coming back into the fray! Have you seen those Moogs (with memory!), or the new Mellotrons? Not cheap, but just to know that this technology is making a come back pleases me! There's hope! Belew/Zappa- For the curious, Belew was captured on film in Zappa's band in the 'Baby Snakes" video. Also, Adrian never burned his Strat.. its really more an art project. Check the cover of Lone Rhino.. and on a related tangent: There's the Talking Heads connection, where, I feel Adrian really developed his singing style(a Byrning influence). There's some great playing on 'Remain In Light'...and don't forget the Frippish lines found on 'Fear of Music''s I Zimbra.... Oh yes, someone had mentioned going to see King Crimson at Poplar Creek, (Chicago area)!!! I saw my first Crim show there in 1984 for the TOAPP tour! It is still quite memorable to this day and I can attest that that show wasn't rained out.. They opened with LTIA III and closed with LTIA II and played all of Discipline and most of TOAPP.. and of course RED. EyEs WiDe OpEn.. DR Howard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:52:58 -0800 (PST) From: kiffin rogers Subject: Underground metal: the real modern day prog Progressive rock act Porcupine Tree have never denied their interest in heavy music genres, and as a recent interview with frontman Steven Wilson in Canada's Chart Attack, the impact of of listening to such music affected the way they wrote new album, In Absentia. "The big influences when I was writing the record were Meshuggah and Opeth, no doubt about that," revealed Wilson. "And I actually thank those two bands on the sleeve notes. I can't really overstate the importance of those two bands on the way I went about this record. When I was writing the record I was listening to those bands. I mean, I was working with one of them [Wilson co-produced and performed on Opeth's Deliverance and Blackwater Park albums; he was also asked to produce Katatonia's upcoming album]. And it was a pleasure to be working with them, just the sophistication of the music." "I have to be honest," Wilson said matter of factly. "For years I had dismissed metal as music for adolescents, which a lot of people do, because I was only exposed to the stuff that is in the mainstream. And then suddenly I tapped into this whole group of bands from the underground. Actually, it's because I read a book called 'Lords Of Chaos', because I was fascinated with this guy from Burzum, that led me into the whole world. So I started listening to bands like Morbid Angel, some of the doom bands and eventually found my way to Meshuggah and Opeth, which to me, were the holy grail of that whole scene. I suddenly realized where all the musicians that were making truly progressive music had gone. They weren't making old-style progressive music, they were making a completely contemporary form of progressive music by using metal as their kind of conduit, if you like. I mean, Mike from Opeth is completely into progressive rock. But he's not doing it in a nostalgic way, he's doing it in a completely cutting edge contemporary way, using metal as his vehicle. And he loves metal just as much as anything, and so do I. And that was kind of a real eye-opener for me, to find musicians who are obviously very much coming from the tradition of the way people made records in the '70s, but doing it in a completely new and contemporary way and with musicianship that I just didn't think existed anymore." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: Alexander Haas Subject: Peter Gabriel, Ticket Prices, and Progress In the last digest there were a number of comments made about Peter Gabriel's latest tour and the Brothers Crim that begged my attention, input, and babble. Firstly, Peter Gabriel: It seems to me that he's more or less lost his audience. The last time around he was still riding an MTV driven wave of popularity (which personally, I don't object to - I though So was great and Us is probably my favorite from his catalogue). It seems to me that he's still riding with the assumption that this widespread popularity still existed. I bought the new album, and I'll buy the next one, but I'm not a casual fan. The argument raised in favor of cheaper tickets definitely holds water in my mind. It would seem most advantageous for him to either return to playing smaller venues, thereby sacrificing the elaborate stage shows, or to maintain the venue size and the theatrics, but lower ticket prices and hold over at a given venue for a few consecutive nights to recoup operating cost - assuming the demand is there. In my defense, what can I say? I'm a Roger Waters fan ^_- Progress: In regards to comments about PG's new album and the Happy EP, I have to disagree with the naysayers. Personally, I see these musicians as continuing what they started when they were college students acting out of lack of direction, random fancy, and/or derangement. This is all self-indulgent creative expression. This isn't Microsoft making absurd amounts of money to reinvent the software wheel. These are artists that we endorse. If they displease us, it's our right to say "I don't think I'll buy this album." Some of the most interesting albums I have ever heard were the result of (often unpopular) experiments with new sounds and techniques. A very brilliant example of this was Ian Anderson's first solo album "Walk Into Light." It was an absolute commercial flop, but contained such wonderful and, at times, beautiful material, that I can't believe it. For Jethro Tull, the 80's involved an immense amount of exploration and experimentation that noone seemed to really dig. As artists though, it was their high-point (need I force someone to listen to Broadsword and the Beast followed by Catfish Rising?). We're paying these people to be innovative artists, not to make their assembly line more efficient and to invest in audio cookie cutters. King Crimson, especially, perform this task admirably - even allowing us glimpses of their works in progress, which may or may not resemble the final product. How many people got to see DaVinci's early sketches? I know, maybe a bit of a stretch in the comparison... Just some food for thought and my $3.50, Alex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:01:15 +0100 From: "Andrew Thiermann" Subject: Re: We've got them all Let me begin by saying, that my comments are never meant to offend, they are my opinion, and whilst opinions can disagree I hope that a disagreement doesn't mean a flat out rejection of views... Now, after reading up from my ProjeKct Two disk I have realised that we may be talking about different recordings...all of my statements have been about "Live Groove" the projeKct Two disk that comes in the ProjeKcts box set...I have not heard "Space Groove" and therefore don't know how much it differs from LG...however, my statements, on the whole pertained to the entire ProjeKcts box set, which, I bought "sight-unseen, sound-unheard"...which is still my policy on all things Crimson. Before going into more detail on this, I would first like to say I am not a "Robert Fripp is GOD"ite...nor am I a "King Crimson has done everything right and can do no wrong" I think just like any creative body (be it a painter, musician, sculptor, director etc...) there are good pieces and bad ones, there are pieces one may like and pieces one may not like, and those pieces differ by individual. I personal love the ProjeKcts which is why i posted on them in the first place, as a responce to negative comments on them. Now to the discussion: My comments as to the 'accusation' that people felt the projeKcts were just a money making scheme came because of comments such as: "hey we got an hour recorded! might as well release a CD" in this context "might as well release a CD" seems to imply "well we can make money off the suckers who buy anything from us so why not" This idea I totally disagree with. I guess I phrased "The ProjeKts were never meant to be 'money making' releases" wrong...what I meant by this, and I honestly thought it was understood, is that they never existed as releases just done to make money, releases which had no artistic substance...I guess I didn't put that across well enough but I hope I did now... >Why aren't they free downloads then? Did they have to >record them and sell >them, rather than just get >together and work? What's your point? These >are >released CD's with their names on them. A conscious >decision. How is an artist to survive if all of their work is given out for free? Being an artist is a profession, and therefore their work, be it 'good' or 'bad' must be subsidised...With a group like KC you know that you buy this release, if on the odd chance you hate it and want to get rid of it, there are those who would buy it (in fact someone posted about buying your copies of these releases if you didn't want them) so in this case I don't really see how anyone loses...to put this in another context, if you went to see a play, which you had never seen before, but you liked the work the playwrite had done in the past and you liked other things the cast had done, so you decide to go to the show, you buy a ticket, you see the show and you hate it...does that mean that the playwrite, the players, the stagecrew, they all did this to pull a quick dollar away from you? Can you argue with the existance of this play? of course you can't...you can say you didn't like it, you can voice your reasons why, but in the end it is just your opinion, just as this is my opinion...in either case you chose to go...now the more important question is "will you go to another one of this person's plays?" ie Will you buy another King Crimson album without hearing it? That is a question you must ask yourself, but if you feel that one release will change how you feel about a particular band, especially one as proficient as KC then it seems like you are missing out. This leads to KC's reputation. A reputation is something that is determined by the fans NOT the artist/s, this is something that the artist/s have no control over...who says they enjoy their reputation, RF is quite clear on the fact that he hates how fans treat him, how they stalk his "fan given celebrity"...King Crimson releases their albums under the name King Crimson because that's who they are, you wouldn't change your name just because someone liked you or didn't like you, right? AND in a sense they did release the ProjeKcts under a different name, they were under the names of ProjeKct One, ProjeKct Two etc...they were quite clear in the fact that this was not a normal release by "King Crimson" I feel they did everything to show that these releases were experimental I quote the "Fractionalisation of King Crimson" In November 1997 King Crimson began a series of projeKcts by fractals of its six members. The aim of these smaller Crimson projeKcts, or subgroups, is to function as Research and Development units on behalf of, and for, the Greater Crim and to creat music for the next generation of Crimson repertoire. The projeKcts may become as much and as little as they may, recording and touring as standalone and independent units." I think that clears up any misunderstanding of use of reputation. >"in the same class/style as King Crimson" that's because it's not strictly a King Crimson release, and it doesn't advertise itself as one. >it doesn't have the careful structure, the power, and >the complexity. First off, IT'S IMPROV, of course it doesn't have careful structure, how can you have careful structure in something that is done on the spur of the moment. I disagree in saying that it is not powerful, I think it is very powerful, again this is a difference in opinion. And finally I truly think this is very complex music, off beats, guitars not playing the same parts, harmonies or time signatures...these are very complex pieces, especially coming from an improv session. >Improv should still pass the fundamental test first: do >you like to listen >to it? I may not know much about >music, but I know what I like. I totally agree, now like I said in my first post, if you don't like improv don't get this (that is the FIRST requirement) secondly if you don't like experimental dischordal music, don't get this, thirdly, if you aren't willing to take a stab in the dark at something you haven't heard before, to see if you to find something you really enjoy, then don't get this. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the ProjeKcts are the best thing EVER, I am just stating my opinion and I know it may differ from others, and really that's fine. So I will state my basic opinion of the ProjeKcts and leave it at that: I think the projeKcts were fantastic, I think they were interesting, musically challenging, I enjoyed how the allowed a view into how the minds of the current musicians (as well as TL and BB) and how they see KC music, how they work on the spot to create ideas, themes and songs. I really think they are a great set of cds. However, I wouldn't use just my opinion on the subject to go out and buy them, figure out if you want to take the risk, spend the money and hear these releases, if you do then do it, if you don't then don't...in the end it's your opinion and your decision... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:18:00 -0000 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: Re: 'this night wounds time' Pursuing the question: "Is the snippet on the back of the album ("This night wounds time") also from Dylan Thomas?"(ET 1069) Neil McNaught wrote: > The 'snippet' is in fact fractured text from a victorian book called 'A > Human Document '.This has been a career obsession of Tom Phillips(artist) > who designed the cover.Further examples can be found in his book 'A > Humament' & 'Heart of a Humament'. You'll find more of Tom Phillips' record sleeve designs on the three singles and one album by the excellent but ill-fated British rock band Dark Star. You're most likely to be able to find 1999's criminally-ignored "Twenty Twenty Sound" album, but the singles "Graceadelica", "I Am The Sun" and "About 3am" (the original versions, not the dance-friendly remixes) all feature flowing Tom Phillips script and attention-drawing text extracts on the sleeve. Dark Star's music might also appeal to various ET-ers - a trio who, variously, used to be in cult British indie-psych bands like Levitation and Cardiacs (and who are now in bands including Sophia, Dragons and - bizarrely - the live Pet Shop Boys band). They performed intensely grooving songs which mixed up elements of "Indiscipline" or "One Time"-style Crimson with hints of Public Image Ltd, Can, Cocteau Twins, Stone Roses and Aerosmith. The lyrics are quite dense and disguised too, so Philips' woodcut effects and multiple lines of overlaid text really contribute to the whole package. cheers, Dann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:34:18 +0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: Re: We've all got 'em. I never listen to Space Groove. If you enjoy it, that's great, but I cannot. I attempt to listen to it every couple of months but, frankly, there are far more interesting things I could be listening to (of course, some of you would consider the things I find more interesting to be dull which brings us onto how no one's opinion of music really matters and everyone likes what they like end of story, but that would just bring about the end of Elephant Talk so I won't mention that..... whoops). Having said that, they were great live. Not awe-inspiring like ProjeKct 1 (because ProjeKct 2 had some material they knew they were going to play, where to stop and where to start etc. whereas 1 did not) but they were great. I wish I could have seen ProjeKct 3 because out of all of them, that's my favourite. However, I get the feeling that they sounded NOTHING like that live (because Mastelotto has cut and paste everything together) but it seems unlikely that I'll ever find out. And ProjeKct 4.. haven't touched that CD for years, probably because of 3 being so good. I see what you're getting at with the "hey, we've been playing for an hour. Did we record it? Well print up some cheap looking booklets and get em to DGM stat!" Apparently they were playing for SEVERAL hours, and edited away the bad stuff.... (easy joke could have been made there, but doing something like that would make me kind of hypocritical). I doubt they would have just released it if they themselves didn't think it was of some worth. So it's valid, IMO. However, this bothered me: >Why aren't they free downloads then? They are musicians. They don't have day jobs. If they had made them all free, nothing is paid for and they'd have been bankrupt within the first year of experiments. Adrian, Pat & Tony would have survived, but Gunn? Fripp? Bruford? No. Not without some kind of lucrative session work on the side (though Fripp might still get royalties on some of the more famous stuff). And even so, why should they pay to entertain you? It all costs money. >Did they have to record them and sell them, rather than just get >together >and work? I see what you mean with the final statement - if they had just holed up somewhere long enough, eventually it would have come out. However, the Nashville Rehearsals proved that they had tried that and it just fell flat. But instead of just breaking up, perseverence was on the cards. Work together seperately, and then "we can return with fresh material for the Greater Crim". Had they not done the ProjeKcts, I seriously doubt that King Crimson would have ever reformed. >What's your point? These are released CD's with their names on them. A > >conscious decision. What's YOUR point? They liked the material enough to release them, and the people who want to buy it can. It's not like you can't hear an album before you purchase it, read a review, or even (at that time) hear from Fripp's journals that it was all improv and that if you had a hard time swallowing that you probably shouldn't pick it up. You go on to spout this piece of wisdom: >You know, I've seen this a lot, and I don't get it. A reputation is a >two-edged sword. If it's such a problem, why don't they release each >new >recording under pseudonym? We know why: they enjoy their >reputation. So >any such statement is whining. So they don't have the right to use their own names? Think about it! If they released every new album under a different name, then no one would ever know what was going on. Robert Fripp (just as example, it obviously applies to everyone) is a human being. So if you were an accountant, and wanted to become an astronaut, you wouldn't whine if everyone was trying to get you to do their taxes at a time when you could be studying/training/whatever the hell astronauts do? OF COURSE they enjoy their reputation. That's how they continue to survive. If you don't have a reputation, you can never move further than the local bars playing your music. A totally illogical thing to suggest. >I think that it allows them to be forgiven for one >bad album or song here or there. Quite the opposite. Agree with you here. New album is a new album. Each one should be looked on freshly. If Power To Believe sucks - I mean REALLY sucks - are we meant to just go "oh it's ok, those two once made Discipline! And Gunn's last solo album was great. Have you heard the new Mastica CD?". No, if Power To Believe sucks - I, at least, will go "hm. Oh well, hope the next one is better" and stick it in my CD shelves never to reemerge. If they never improve, then eventually the time comes to just not bother with them anymore. They've still got their fans and I can move onto other music that I like. Not a problem for either of the parties involved. >>If you like interesting improv then go out and get them, >>if you don't like improv, some discordal stuff, dynamic >>forward thinking pieces then don't buy them. I'll correct this for you. If you're interested in ProjeKct 2, go to CDNow or somewhere similar and listen to the samples. If that's not enough, go to a CD shop that has it and ask to listen to it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you do, buy it. You are not the authority on what is "interesting" and "forward thinking". Finally, excellent quote that should be remembered by all. >Improv should still pass the fundamental test first: do you like to >listen >to it? I may not know much about music, but I know what I like. Totally. ~Cameron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:30:11 -0500 From: "Raul_F._Rueda" Subject: KC lecture (long mail) Hi Crimheads: I can easily recall having posted only three messages here since I subscribed, however, I eagerly read all your posts and never stop learning. First let me quote the following just in case: clinic ('klinik) n 7. Chiefly U.S. and Canadian. a group or centre that offers advice or instruction: a vocational clinic. Ten months ago, a group of prog-heads belonging to a mail list called "La Lata" (the can or tin, in English) here in my country had this crazy idea of getting together in monthly "clinics", which actually are sort of "lectures" designed to expose the works of a certain prog band, often not well-known, nibbling some snacks and drinking some beer or wine (not too much because it's always on Thursdays). We started with kind of "new" bands (at least to most of us in this lands) such as After Crying, Anglagard, Enchant, but we also covered some monsters like Le Orme, Yes or Steve Hackett solo career. What started as a small group of 15 "nerds" gradually increased to 40 avid listeners, from different backgrounds, gatherded to share our mutual passion and learn from one another. Using a standard stereo ata first, we then turned out to more sophisticated high-end audio systems and even multimedia video playback on a screen for rare clips thanks to generous music-maniacs. Any prog head, belonging to La Lata or not, is invited to join us for free. We even "imported" an Argentinian lecturer (Ruben Arari) who did an extraordinary job on Hackett. To make the story short, I am pelased to tell you that a record was broken yesterday in our "10th KClinic". More than 50 prog-maniacs roared at the outsatnding material presented on a video about King Crimson's career. The lecturer, Augusto Cabada (well-known Peruvian screenplay writer, die-hard crim-head and ocassional reader of this Newsletter) gave an impeccable, magistral class on KC in less than two hours - superb speech and great handling of the inquiries. Of course, everybody cried for more, but it was wise to have left it like that, urging us to go and get hold of whatever we can find and listen. It's going to be very difficult to surpass this clinic due to the quality of the music exposed and how it was displayed. And it's surprising how prog still breathes healthy in such an isolated part of this world. Sorry but I had to tell you about this experience of mine. Great Xmas gift indeed! Long live the King...! Crimson... of course. Take care and have a great Xmas time and New Year. Raul F. Rueda Lima - Peru ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:53:48 +0100 From: Laurent Masse Subject: Re: Devil's Triangle / Mars > >The Devil's Triangle would have been called Mars had they obtained the > >right to use the name back in 1970. > >Hmmmm, forgive me if I appear to sound condescending, but you say that as >though you have it on good authority . . . is this perhaps only your >opinion? (By all means, if you Do have it on good authority, I'd like to >know that as well :)) > >These are just thoughts to ponder . . . unless Robert (or anyone else with >first-hand knowledge) steps in and answers such questions I doubt seriously >that we'll ever know the actual truth about this. Unless of course Sid >Smith has already collected this info and it will all (eventually) find a >home in the apparently forthcoming KC encyclopaedia . . . ? Well, I only read it in Sid Smith's book. Don't have it by me now to check the page though... ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1072 *********************************