Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1070 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1070 Thursday, 12 December 2002 Today's Topics: Re: Ade/Zappa Peter Gabriel: Progressive Rock+Big production+no radio support+$$$$ tickets Tool boots, Belewness, Trey and his backing guns sales figures Femme... PG tour review CAPITAL PUNISHMENT? Let's go ahead and play... We've all got 'em. Re: Pictures of Robert Re: Belew Re: Devil's Triangle / Mars Guitar Craft Database Is anyone else siKc of people who are siKc of how other folKcs refer the new USA and Earthbound Re: If it isn't secret world, it isn't good. 'this night wounds time' Re: 41 pictures of a man in the city on TV The Mellotron Book Re: Mars Belew the brown aura ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:30:55 -0500 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Re: Ade/Zappa In 1068, "The Necron Stratomailer" (I bet that's not your real name!) wrote: "By the way, while we're at this... Am I very very wrong or is that Ade singing on "City of Tiny Lives" from "Sheik Yerbouti"? After all, Frank *did* recruit Adrian because he was a guitar-player/singer." That is in fact Ade singing on "City of Tiny Lights". He also sings on "Jones Crusher". As I understand it, Belew was uncomfortable singing some of the Zappa's randier lyrics. Also, you can here his distorted guitar all over the album. Even if you're not a big fan of Zappa, you should check out the album. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:34:50 -0500 From: "Mike Campiglio" Subject: Peter Gabriel: Progressive Rock+Big production+no radio I might as well put my 2 cents in on this one; let me start by saying, I enjoyed the show very much; Family Snapshot made the night all worth it! I attended the Fleet Center show, which like the tour in general has had mixed reviews. As the long title of this thread says, unfortunately, the Fleet Center was about half filled. The top price ticket was $131 and with service charges, 2 tix would have cost $284, not chump change. Fortunately, my wife won them on the radio; turned out to be a cheap night out. I was going to go in and score a cheap tix off a scalper, I knew it wasn't selling well; as it turned out scalpers were giving then away! Let me get back to the point at hand; from a financial point of view, the tour is a flop. The promoter (Clearchannel) highly over-estimated PG's popularity. So & Us were very successful, but that was a long time ago...this is an industry with a short memory. Up had no commercial potential from the get go: no hooks, long songs = no radio play. It's too bad, I thought it was his best recording since Security. If the top price ticket was $50 and the cheapest $20, things may have been different; it may have attracted the casual fan. I think there was at least a lesson learned by all; PG might realize that he "really" belongs in theatres and So & Us were aberrations of success in his career. Clearchannel might think twice when sticking it to the consumer! We all have witnessed and felt the escalating ticket prices, maybe this we be a wakeup call...I can only hope so! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:41:25 EST From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Tool boots, Belewness, Trey and his backing guns >>Especially for the one in which RF joins Tool for some improv. > >Does such a thing exist? I'm not sure, but there's a nice selection of live Tool mp3s up at.. http://www.deadohiosky.net/audio.html ..including the KC performance of "Red" where Danny Carey sat in on drums. That one's here: http://www.deadohiosky.net/audio/KC_08_13_01.html >Is there a difference in musical style/approach between the Trey Gunn Band >and Trey's solo work? Though the writing approach is very similar, the TGB has a more collective contribution from the other members. More of the songs are cowritten rather than being entirely Trey's compositions, and the percussion is much more detailed (since Bob Muller is an equal contributor and not a hired session guy). I've always thought the Band material sounds fuller and more realized overall. >>3. I've been a KC fan since Thrak, but I'm still not entirely sure how to >> pronounce 'Belew'. Can someone confirm? >"Beloo" is my best bet. Yep, it's pronounced just like that annoying bear from the 'Jungle Book' movie. -g ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:23:13 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Miller Subject: sales figures I hope I'm not asking a FAQ, but are unit sales figures by cd available somewhere? I'm curious to know how many people actually bought such things as Space Groove, Heaven and Earth, VROOOM VROOOM, etc. I've looked around on the www, but can't come up with anything. And what about CC releases? Are there numbers for these? Thanks for help from anyone. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:43:59 +0100 From: "FS Info" Subject: Femme... Who will be the first female musician in King/Queen Crimson and when will it happen? I hope rather soon. Kate Bush, do you read me? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:05:09 -0800 From: Nancy Mack Subject: PG tour review Saw PG at the San Diego Sports Arena this last weekend. Its really a terrible concert venue, but its the only place in town that will accomodate the elaborate stage setups. When we purchased the tickets ($150 each, ouch!) we really weren't sure where our seats would be, as the Ticketmonster seating chart was for a "normal" concert setting, not one such as Peter is known for. To our delight, we were in the 5th row. I loved it, sorry for all you out there who were disappointed. First of all, the man is 52 years old, lets take it easy on the "potbelly" and "failing to hit the high notes" comments. The stage crew in orange outfits (looked more like a judo gi, not a jumpsuit) were a bit of a distraction but Peter made a point of mentioning the Orange Men without whose help none of the show would be possible, and had us all give the Orange Men a round of applause. Vocals were a bit muddy but the overall sound a lot better than I've ever heard in that venue before. Tony's bass lines came through just fine, and my friend was intrigued with the appearance of the Stick, he'd never seen one before. Tony got some of the very loudest ovations- Peter said he'd known Tony for so long, back when they both had hair.... The crowd was passionate & diverse, only a few obnoxious shouters, lots of positive energy, but I was disappointed to see so many empty seats. The Blind Boys of Alabama blew the crowd away with their energy & powerful voices- absolutely amazing. Lots more I could say, about the giant hamster ball (which actually worked pretty well and was fun to see), upside-down walking around the suspended circular stage, flashing jacket, movie camera, bicycle......some of it worked better than other bits, and some seemed borrowed right from the Secret World tour.... I will leave that for another reviewer. I did not feel cheated of my money and really enjoyed myself during the whole show.... from Peter's introduction of the Blind Boys to the final encore it was 3 1/2 hours well spent with an old friend......... who knows when he will tour again, enjoy him while you can. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:20:29 -0500 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT? [ Dude, go easy on the CAPS, ok? Please? -- TOBY ] PARLIAMENT OF PACHYDERMS: If I have been inadvertently guilty of violating some form of "netiquette", then I do apologise. However, I do not understand what infraction I may have committed or verged upon having committed. MALCOLM XERXES Batterie/Percussives http://www.malcolmxerxes.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:46:58 -0600 (CST) From: Sergio Subject: Let's go ahead and play... >>Especially for the one in which RF joins Tool for some improv. >Does such a thing exist? Did that really happen on >that tour? If so I >think I'd give my, or at least someone elses left arm >to have that. So >please, Conact me privately as well >[ OK kids, go ahead and play, but remember to send a >copy to DGM just in >case they don't have it. OK? --Toby ] >thanks >Jordan What can I say... They say there is a website called www.winmx.com. And they say you can send a copy of the recordings of "Red" featuring Danny Carey and "Reflection/Disposition" (a couple of songs from the Lateralus album) featuring Robert Fripp's keyboards to the website called www.disciplineglobalmobile.com. I would like to go ahead and play, but I don't believe the rumours... (Sergio ;-) delicate living creature silence that smiles to me whenever I open myself beauty truth good transience tranquillity innocence always the same always different ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:09:21 -0800 (PST) From: "J.R. Gattiker" Subject: We've all got 'em. I agreed that: >>I was pretty disappointed with "Projekt Two", in fact >>it sent me away from KC for some time. I do feel >>somewhat cheated, because I previously had a sight- >>unseen ("sound-unheard"?) buying policy for RF work. It >>does feel to me like it was just "hey we got an hour >>recorded! might as well release a CD". To which Andrew blathered, among other things: > I know many who don't but don't accuse them of being some scheme for RF > and crew to get more money out of us, because that they certainly > weren't. You're very low to accuse me of saying this. > The ProjeKts were never meant to be 'money making' releases... If you > had read what was going on in the diaries of RF and others it was a new > way of reforming the band. Why aren't they free downloads then? Did they have to record them and sell them, rather than just get together and work? What's your point? These are released CD's with their names on them. A conscious decision. > In my view, with some of KCs fans I don't know how > RF or ANYONE in the band can do any right. You know, I've seen this a lot, and I don't get it. A reputation is a two-edged sword. If it's such a problem, why don't they release each new recording under pseudonym? We know why: they enjoy their reputation. So any such statement is whining. > people just can't be happy. It's the reputation again. I though this was worth discussing because it's not up to their usual snuff. Would you rather than they have a reputation based on spotty quality, so everyone thinks a mediocre release is no big deal? I wouldn't. > I think that it allows them to be forgiven for one > bad album or song here or there. Quite the opposite. > I feel they are an interesting window into the song development > process, they allowed us to experience what improv with KC is like, > they gave us a few albums to listen to between major album releases. I can see your point, but listening to it again, though, I don't think it's very insightful. What does it say to you? > If you like interesting improv then go out and get them, > if you don't like improv, some discordal stuff, dynamic > forward thinking pieces then don't buy them. Who are you? I wouldn't put this in the same class/style of music as KC, it doesn't have the careful structure, the power, and the complexity. I also think that in it's class, it's not a very good effort. Improv should still pass the fundamental test first: do you like to listen to it? I may not know much about music, but I know what I like. I'd like to hear more about how people find this as a comment on the other KC music, though. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:15:40 +0000 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Re: Pictures of Robert "Eddy de Causmaecker" writes: >Very hard to find, pictures of Mr. Fripp, here's an older one: > >http://www.eclipse.net/~synergy/petergabrielpix/pg2/pg2pix.htm Ha ha; haven't seen that one in a while. IIRC the reverse of the postcard says something like "Peter Gabrial plays piano while Robert Fripp pretends to play at the Hit Factory, NYC" Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:19:42 +0000 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Re: Belew "The Necron Stratomailer" writes: >By the way, while we're at this... Am I very very wrong or is that Ade >singing on "City of Tiny Lives" from "Sheik Yerbouti"? After all, Frank >*did* recruit Adrian because he was a guitar-player/singer. Ohhhh, YES! What a great voice! Not to mention his gloriously funny Bob Dylan impersonation on 'Flakes' on the same LP. I had the good fortune to see FZ on that tour and Ade just blew everyone away. We were like . . . who IS this guy? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:42:08 +0000 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Re: Devil's Triangle / Mars Laurent Masse writes: >The Devil's Triangle would have been called Mars had they obtained the >right to use the name back in 1970. Hmmmm, forgive me if I appear to sound condescending, but you say that as though you have it on good authority . . . is this perhaps only your opinion? (By all means, if you Do have it on good authority, I'd like to know that as well :)) In the absence of this, I maintain that they are two different pieces of music. TDT could perhaps be accompanied by verbiage such as 'inspired by' or 'adapted from' 'Mars' by Gustav Holst, IMHO. But they are *not* the same piece of music. Another possibility is that, unable to obtain the rights to record the piece (assuming this to be the case), but being that 'Mars' had become so identified with the 1969 outfit and Robert desired to provide some recorded evidence of same, he concocted TDT out of such a seeming 'necessity.' The fact that Ian McDonald shares writing credits for at least part of the piece is interesting also - was this mapped out before Ian and Mike left ca. 12/1969 or was this a nod by Robert to Ian after the fact? And if this is the case, it is interesting that another (perhaps the only other?) 'in progress' composition of the time - the hauntingly beautiful 'Trees' - was obviously claimed by/willed to Ian and Mike when they left as parts of it appear on the McD&G album, and certainly the 'feel' of that piece is much more in line with the contents of McD&G than ItWoP. These are just thoughts to ponder . . . unless Robert (or anyone else with first-hand knowledge) steps in and answers such questions I doubt seriously that we'll ever know the actual truth about this. Unless of course Sid Smith has already collected this info and it will all (eventually) find a home in the apparently forthcoming KC encyclopaedia . . . ? But it's interesting to think about it all just the same. At least it is for me. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:12:47 -0800 From: "Sandra" Subject: Guitar Craft Database Hi there! Guitar Craft is currently in the process of updating the Guitar Craft mailing database, and the job of doing this has fallen to me. I am currently weeding out some 300 dead email addresses. If you are interested in receiving Guitar Craft mailings, please let me know by sending an email to registrar-northamerica at guitarcraft dot com. If you have been on a Guitar Craft course, we ask you to indicate that as well, as we are creating a multi-functional database that will also be used to chronicle the history of Guitar Craft and to better serve the worldwide community. If you have changed your email address and haven't received a mailing in the last 5 months, please send your new information. We send out information on a very limited basis, and of course we NEVER give out our mailing list for other uses. If you are on our list with a live email address, you should be getting an email in the next week or so asking for updated information. Thanks! Sandra Prow Guitar Craft North America Database Administrator ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:13:08 -0600 From: Jon Buckley Subject: Is anyone else siKc of people who are siKc of how other folKcs refer the new EP? Or is it just me? I would like to see them stop, or at least be more clever than I'm being right now. -- Old Ears ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:18:47 -0200 From: Moahh Subject: USA and Earthbound Does anybody know the differences between the Russian versions of USA and Earthbound CDs, and the DGM versions? I mean, I know that the USA CD has bonus tracks, but I am concerned about the sound quality. I bought both Russian CDs a long time ago, and I was not aware that these were not 'official' releases. In fact, I only became aware of this when DGM anounced that they were going to release Earthbound on CD for the first time ever. Thanks, Moahh -- "I don't know what he's doing, mother. But I don't think he is singing." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:42:04 -0600 From: CRAIG Subject: Re: If it isn't secret world, it isn't good. >It seems like many people do that with yes and crimson as well. Maybe because they simply don`t like what they hear........? If it isn't 'good' , it isn't 'good'. >I find this greatly depressing You have to be happy with what KC you have to be happy with? >because each album that all three of these bands are >producing excellent music constantly and yet >....people cannot manage to comprehend it Oh, puhleeze! >or appreciate it because they have listened to the prior >albums over and over to the point where no matter what the artist does >next, it will not be the same as the earlier, and therefore not register as >enjoyable to the listener. Sigh. Nothing incomprehensible about it. Appreciation is "one man`s treasure"............. Krimson has released (over the past three decades) many, *many* excellent albums which were quite different from what came before. ....They just hit the wall w/ the EP. Fortunately, B.L.U.E. & Trey Gunn are keeping the fires burning. ~C ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:19:25 -0000 From: "neil mcnaught" Subject: 'this night wounds time' "Is the snippet on the back of the album ("This night wounds time") also from Dylan Thomas?"(ET 1069) The 'snippet' is in fact fractured text from a victorian book called 'A Human Document '.This has been a career obsession of Tom Phillips(artist) who designed the cover.Further examples can be found in his book 'A Humament' & 'Heart of a Humament'. Regards Neil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:08:23 +0000 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Re: 41 pictures of a man in the city on TV Regarding the alleged differences between 'A Man, A City' (AMAC) and 'Pictures of a City' (PoaC): Having just received my copy of the 21CSB CD and having given it a cursory listen, the actual differences between these two pieces have become clearer to me, particularly in light of the fact that the 21CSB follow the original 'A Man, A City' arrangement, and the tune is listed as such on the CD. This in itself is interesting as Mel probably played the 'revised version' (PoaC) as many times as Ian played the original, but I suppose deferred to the 'senior partners' of the group, if in fact any such distinction is even acknowledged within it. Anyway, here's the deal (IMHO, of course): 1) Regarding the opening theme, the second bar of the opening theme is played in unison in AMAC, but the guitar and sax lines are sustained in PoaC (and the guitar provides a dissonant component not present in AMAC), and the entire theme resolves in a standard V-I cadence in AMAC, where it does not in PoaC. FWIW, I prefer the latter in both cases. 2) The drum parts are somewhat different as well, in particular Giles' 32nd note fill leading into the first verse did not appear until the studio recording of PoaC, and this figure was maintained by Ian Wallace when he played the piece a few years later live. By comparison, the performances on 'Epitaph' and even the 21CSB CD do not include this - either 16th notes or less in it's place. 2) Regarding the slow midsection, in AMAC it was mostly used by McDonald to solo pad, whereas on the studio recording of PoaC, it becomes more of an atmospheric, guitar-driven interlude. However, in later live performances, i.e. by the 'Islands' line-up, Mel uses it as a solo section much like Ian did in the original AMAC. Interestingly, Jakko introduces some of the guitar sounds Fripp used in the studio on PoaC in this section to the 21CSB version of AMAC. 3) What I was really remembering (albeit not very clearly) as a difference in this 'slow midsection', was the recapitulation - in AMAC, things quiet down quite a bit and -BOOM- the opening theme (see (1) above) is leapt right back into, followed by the final verse. In PoaC, the midsection ends by Fripp building a distorted crescendo on the guitar with percussion accompaniment, and the piece goes directly into the final verse and the end of the tune, without re-stating the opening theme. I think that's it. OK, I need to get a life I suppose, so I'm off to try. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:25:18 -0500 From: FFata Subject: The Mellotron Book For those who might be interested, "The Mellotron Book" I picked this up thru Amazon.com (along with "Analog Days" the story of Moog, Bucchla, etc) The Tron book has lots of info on this amazing beast. I don't own one, I actually use a VST plugin for my sequencer. I just love the sound, especially playing it from my MIDI guitar. Sorry, back to the book. it has pix of RF's Trons and lots of history, factoids... Oh, ok here's the link to RF's Trons... ;-) http://www.dcrp.ced.berkeley.edu/cervero/crimtron.htm Fred ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:13:46 +0000 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Re: Mars One additional thought that was bugging me: If RF or KC was unable to get the rights to 'Mars', then how does one explain it's apearance on the 1970 Love Sculpture LP "Forms and Feelings"? I went looking elsewhere on the web and see that said LP is now available on CD, but apparently only in it's UK format, which did NOT include 'Mars' and, according to an anonymous reviewer on the site http://shop.trimensions.com/aws.cgi/mode_music/search_sculpture/heading_Trimensions/bgcolor_FFFFFF/: ". . . apparently, the U.K. version of this album could not include it because the great-granddaughter of Gustav Holst (the composer of "Mars") sought legal action to prevent it from being released, but her influence was non-existent in the U.S. (due to variances in copyright laws) . . ." Of course, the only copy of this LP I ever had was the US version, so I had never heard this story before, but it doesn't surprise me. And, based on other stories that I *had* heard about Holst's heir(s) being quite inflexible regarding matters such as this, I am not surprised. I wonder if my earlier supposition that Robert in fact crafted 'The Devil's Triangle' because of this, rather than in spite of it, could in any way be true? And, while I'm at it, I'll say that this Love Sculpture LP for some reason has always reminded me of the McD&G LP . . . there's certainly a 'Abbey Road-ish' quality to it in places that McD&G also has (in places), but that's where the overt similarities end for me. It's a great listen regardless, showcasing Dave Edmunds' guitar talents quite nicely, and including an 11-minute version of Aram Khachaturian's 'Sabre Dance' and sundry other delights. OK, back to work for me! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:07:53 +0100 From: "Van Polly uit St. Paul's"

Subject: Belew > >By the way, while we're at this... Am I very very wrong or is that Ade > >singing on "City of Tiny Lives" from "Sheik Yerbouti"? After all, Frank > >*did* recruit Adrian because he was a guitar-player/singer. > I don't have the cd with me at the moment, but if I remember correctly, > the only song that Belew sings on Sheik Yerbouti is Jones Crusher. I'm not totally sure, but Adrian sings most of the album, at least there's the beautiful parody on Bob Dylan in Flakes. Have fun, I know I will... Paul Logman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:14:33 -0800 (PST) From: "J.R. Gattiker" Subject: the brown aura I was glad to hear RF & others laughing on Happy. It reveals something new of the dynamic of the group to me, something that I find very positive. As an aside, I don't go to arena shows, the point to me of seeing someone "live" is to catch these glimpses. Arena shows seem like plays - the intent is that you know the characters, not the actors. I find even short windows of non-scripted interaction the most interesting stuff. (although this one could be *way* out of the implied context, it's so short). That he can accept others' criticism in good spirits and has a sense of humor doesn't mean he is not serious though. To those who claim RF is somehow a "victim" of his fans' projections, re-read the guitar craft home page. You're saying this is all an elaborate hoax? This sort of cult manifesto doesn't happen by accident, any more than I can pick up a guitar and play Fraktured. The "aura" is clearly something he's cultivated, though not necessarily his conscious intent. I'm not saying it's good or bad. But come on, be realistic. j ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1070 *********************************