Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1069 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1069 Wednesday, 11 December 2002 Today's Topics: Peter Gabriel Schizoid Band - The Reflection your votes please Robert Fripp Is Full of Shit (Literally) OT: Help In Tracing Tobias ET #1067 Re: Happy Handsonic Crim-scelaneous Re: double espresso Re: Earthbound Is anyone else getting sick of the "Happy..." puns? AB with FZ Tony Levin rare photo Sheik Belew It's certainly different... TPTB Yee-hah! I got "The Power To Believe" today!!!!!!!!!! Next year KC show Noise Re: Belew "Starless..." "This is my Art, and it is Dangerous!" ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:36:37 -0500 (EST) From: ewok_lij at localnet dot com Subject: Peter Gabriel All I have heard from the current UP tour is bad things. How it cannot compare with Secret World and whatnot. I saw the toronto show and I don't think there is a better show I have ever seen; bar NONE. Don't get me wrong. I am extremely fond of Secret World; I listen to it constantly. However, I think that his current tour is as good if not better than his last tour. His current stage "antics" are far more developed than before, and the music is much tighter, I believe. It seems like people haven't had anything to do for the past ten years except watch the secret world video and that hs become the template. If it isn't secret world, it isn't good. It seems like many people do that with yes and crimson as well. I find this greatly depressing because each album that all three of these bands are producing excellent music constantly and yet people cannot manage to comprehend it or appreciate it because they have listened to the prior albums over and over to the point where no matter what the artist does next, it will not be the same as the earlier, and therefore not register as enjoyable to the listener. Sigh. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:09:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Philip Johnston Subject: Schizoid Band - The Reflection Hi there! Here's a few of my opinions on the 21st Century Schizoid Band. Before I went to see them at the Newcastle Opera House I felt quite nervous as to how they were going to sound, could they they match the mighty King Crimson that I know & love from my CD collection, or would they even try? In my opinion they haven't tried to better or match Crimso 69 etc, they are simply being themselves, slightly more mellowed than the angst & melancholy of yester-year! THE BAND... To watch & listen to the rhythm section of the Giles brothers in the flesh is an amazing thing... I can only describe them as the greatest drum'n bass team in the universe! I think Jakko adds a more modern slant to the sonic pallete, his vocals sit well but his guitar playing was sublime a mix of Holdsworth, Summers & because of the songs Fripp. His soloing is up there with the best! Mel Collins tears away on his saxophone like a man possessed, he also plays a mean flute. He was the great surprise for me that night. WOW!! Lastly Ian McDonald... ah, what to say about Magical Ian, go back & listen once again to 'In the Court', 'Epitaph' & 'McDonald & Giles'... Ian seemed to be the most, for want of a better word, out there! You could sense he was pushing himself always searching for that extra something, fleeting moments of beauty came & went, but they have stayed with me to this very day! This band is 'NOT' King Crimson, it's a more vulnerable unit, schizoid even, but thats part of the fun. Love & Happiness Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:20:01 +0100 From: "Andre Steijns" Subject: your votes please Please vote for Peter Hammill and/or Peter Gabriel in Paperlate Rock Show's contest for the best album of 2002 on www.paperlate.net Sorry no KC album in the list this year. The new KC album will be released overhere in February, so next year you can vote for KC again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:19:08 -0000 From: "John Doherty" Subject: Robert Fripp Is Full of Shit (Literally) This story is true, and it might actually help Fripp in someway loose the 'aura' he feels some fans have tagged him with throughout his career. I can remember first getting into Fripp / Crimson, etc about 15 years ago and I devoured everything I could lay my hands and ears on. When Fripp started to 'return' to regular performing / recording in the early nineties, it was a dream come true, I would be able to at last see one of my favourite artists in the flesh. But I got cured - and this is how it happened. I was lucky enough to go to the original Epitaph playback in London, and like most people was excited at just being in the same room as my idol, Bob Fripp. Like most I was actually very nervous and was tempted to just go up and tell him how much his music meant to me, etc. Luckily I didn't. After drinking enormous amounts of the rather excellent coffee that was on offer, I needed to visit the gents (restroom). After relieving myself, I turned around to see non-other than my No 1 guitar hero, Mr Robert Fripp. This was my chance; he wasn't surrounded by his friends, employees, ex-band members, etc. I could tell him how much his music meant to me, etc. But then it hit me, he had come into the toilets to also relieve himself, it didn't matter to him that I thought I was his best fan and that he really needed to acknowledge me. Like St Paul on the road to Damascus, I had an epiphany; I liked his music - regardless of Fripp himself, or whether he knew what it meant to me. To cut the story short, I passed him, nodding to him to show my recognition (as if anyone in the place didn't know who he was ;-)) and received a smile as I continued on my way. Robert proceeded into a cubicle to go about his own business (hence the subject line of this thread - Robert was presumably full of shit!) How could I have thought to have even contemplated speaking to him? I didn't normally make a habit of approaching strangers in public toilets! I am so glad I let this opportunity pass me by and I would implore fellow Crim-heads to do the same. If they ever find themselves in a similar situation with someone "famous" they admire, use the following mantra to steel yourself against temptation- "I really like your work, etc, BUT you're just full of shit like me!" It will bring you back to earth very quickly. We have heard many posts by people who have met / followed / spied on / been blanked by Fripp, how about those of us who have actively IGNORED him or treated him as a private individual. Does anyone have any non-event Fripp encounters? Robert you are the nicest person I have had the pleasure of never meeting. JOHN DOHERTY ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:33:39 -0000 From: "djr" Subject: OT: Help In Tracing Tobias Hi all, Let me start by apologising in advance for the lack of KC content, and for throwing myself at the mercy of the list. I'm trying to trace a fellow crimhead, who I was mailing up until the other day, when my PC crashed, and I lost all my contacts. I know I should have had it on paper, but we are supposed to live in a paperless society, right? Anyway, the name in my "From" field was similar to VAN DE VEER Tobias (Gillingham) IIRC. If you're out there Toby, could you please mail me urgently as I've lost your home and work e-mails. I have good news. ANybody on hte group who knows his e-mail addy, could you please mail me off-list with it please. Thanks to the other Toby (Moderator) for letting this mail go through, and thanks for letting me intrude with a non-Crim post. Best Regards Dougie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:06:21 -0500 From: "scott ventura" Subject: ET #1067 Thank you, Anna Rose: First of all: 'Trick of the Tail' and 'Duke' are not classics. 'Trick' has a few nice tunes (notably the chorus of 'Ripples') but nothing outstanding. 'Duke' is from after Genesis had officially gone crap. Well, I'm glad someone has pointed out to me how wrong I've been for the last twenty years. I maintain that the decline began with Invisible Touch, though "Illegal Alien" was a harbinger of crap to come. And also, Bob Bennett wrote: I recently saw the Peter Gabriel show in Detroit (oh OK - really Auburn Hills). Unlike the criticism of the show at the Fleet Center, the bottom end at the Palace was very clear. You could actually hear Tony's bow hit the bass strings. Also, I thought the staging was excellent - and fun. The Secret World Tour was more intimate, but this show was very interestingly done, with each song seemingly having a personality all it's own. Here Comes the Flood, Barry William's Show and Growing Up were particularly done well. I agree completely, and I was at the Fleet Center. The sound was excellent and the Blind Boys of Alabama were great, though I was underwhelmed by the other opener. sv " I still listen to 'A Love Supreme' all the time. In that record I find just about everything I respect in music." --Bill Bruford ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:53:16 EST From: Termiteac at aol dot com Subject: Re: Happy Handsonic In ET#1067, "Old Ears" asks, "Are these guitars, drums, cymbals, bells or what?" The bells, chimes, and gong sounds on Shoganai were made using the Roland Handsonic electronic hand drum. Adrian plays one and P@ has two. I am an amateur percussionist and have one myself. The instrument has literally hundreds of percussion and other sounds arranged in patches within categories, and it is touch sensitive. It also uses an invisible "D-Beam" which is triggered by waving your hand through it. The sounds are very realistic. On Shonanai the Java Gamelan patch from the Asian category is used. It sounds to me like P@ is playing the steady, rapid underbeat and Ade is adding the bells, chimes and gongs. The gong is triggered by the D-Beam in that patch. In Virtuous Circle from Level 5 the Handsonic's Frame Drum patch from the African category is used. When I saw our boys play in DC last year it looked to me that Ade was using the Pot Drum patch from the African catagory and P@ was playing the Frame Drum with his left hand and rattles, real ones, in his right. The Handsonic is a fun instrument and very intuitive. I can come real close to resembling Shoganai on my Handsonic, but I prefer my own grooves, sorry boys. Termites are everywhere AC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:22:02 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Crim-scelaneous "Anyway... I played 'Easy Money' in my music class and the response was, er, not exactly welcoming. Teacher: (trying to be complimentary because I have already played him some Captain Beefheart which he REALLY didn't like): 'Well, it's certainly different.......' Class: 'Turn it off! We want the teacher to play us Nat King Cole on the piano! This is terrible! It's even worse than the Pink Floyd!' What a bunch of cretins." ... Jerks indeed. What *do* they like, anyway? I mean, that sort of thing is supposed to be easily figured out but I don't really get what 'normal' people like these days (I'm 18, but I like KC and a crapload of different bands and artists from different styles, and my circle of friends is mostly composed of metal fans (that's part of my relationship with them) (PanterA RULES!!! (but you don't care about that right now, do you?))) (I bet you never saw so many parenthesis stuck together at the same time, huh?) "Also, what are all these claims that Crim are not fun to listen to? It is not fun to dissect the music the way one dissects novels in English class (ie. 'taking it seriously') but listening to it is fun. Browsing CD stores is fun. I imagine that going to concerts is fun. Presumably people find reading and posting to this newsletter fun. Chatting to others with good musical taste is fun. Crimso are one of my favourite bands because their music is good and intriguing and exciting and experimental and it makes me happy. What's not fun about that? :-D" I read my previous post on this subject (cuz' *I* said they weren't fun to listen to) and, humm.... yeah, well. You're right. Although what I was trying to say was that there's no problem in taking music seriously, and KC *in itself* is not fun (although I do have great fun times with it). But we certainly have the wit to make it fun. Well... Humm, have fun! Strato ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:26:04 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: double espresso 4. Someone convince me I should buy Double Espresso (please). is that the double live cd? If so i saw it at circuit city for 13.99. Is it definately worth buying? Can anyone share any thoughts on it? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:27:20 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: Earthbound >>(i) I have just bought EARTHBOUND. It isn't King Crimson!!! (if you know >>what i mean) I don't know what you mean.. What do you mean? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:00:32 -0500 From: "Nik Smith" Subject: Is anyone else getting sick of the "Happy..." puns? Is it just me or whenever ANYONE mentions that EP, they always try to include some kind of "clever" pun, ALL the time? Is anyone else sick of these or am I alone? I would like to see them stop, or just not so obvious/corny... -Nik ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 01:23:55 -0600 From: John Michael Beard Subject: AB with FZ Although it doesn't come across that way on "Baby Snakes" Adrian was the main vocalist for the touring he did with Frank. The Baby Snakes shows were a good bit different from the tour shows, since those were planned around the filming, with a lot of special material. Frank always sang lots of the songs on tour, but always had a "lead" vocalist. And yes, that's Adrian singing on "City Of Tiny Lights", one of my favorite songs. He also sings "Jones Crusher" from the same album, and I'm sure you'll recognise the guitar work on that song. While Frank rarely relinquished the lead guitar spot (Vai said this was a Good Thing), I think he had a certain fondness for Adrian's style. He also really liked the guy personally from what I understand; this was less common in his bands. I spoke with Adrian on a radio call-in and you could tell he really cared a lot for Frank as well. I was the only one to call in, can you believe it? Anyway there's a certain serendepity for me in all this, as my favorite guitarists by far are FZ, Belew, and Fripp. John Michael Beard www.loungehounds.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:45:09 -0500 From: Tim Subject: Tony Levin rare photo > Very hard to find, pictures of Mr. Fripp, here's an older one: > > http://www.eclipse.net/~synergy/petergabrielpix/pg2/pg2pix.htm > > Best Wishes, > Eddy Flycatcher Check out this related link: http://www.eclipse.net/~synergy/petergabrielpix/pg1/pg1pix.htm for a look at Tony before his trademark hairdo! Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:31:24 +0100 From: "Tomas Cihak" Subject: Sheik Belew >Am I very very wrong or is that Ade singing on "City of Tiny Lives" from >"Sheik Yerbouti"? It surely is him, although the song itself is named 'City of Tiny LITES'. TomasC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:30:59 +0000 From: brian dot parker at zoom dot co dot uk Subject: It's certainly different... >>Anyway... I played 'Easy Money' in my music class and the response was, >>er, not exactly welcoming. Teacher: (trying to be complimentary because I >>have already played him some Captain Beefheart which he REALLY didn't >>like): 'Well, it's certainly different.......' Class: 'Turn it off! We >>want the teacher to play us Nat King Cole on the piano! This is terrible! >>It's even worse than the Pink Floyd!' Years went by, I grew up, I left home, got married, had kids. 30 years on, my mother says "Do you still listen to those records you used to listen to " (to which the obvious answer is yes, only more so) and followed this by revealing that, when I was at school/work (whatever) she used to listen to Court of the Crimson King (track not l.p.) when cleaning my room ! Oh such dark secrets mama ! Now I share music, in a way, with my sons - one who plays (ska-punk ?!?) in a band called Milk2sugars (web-site .co.uk or thru punktastic.com - shameless plug...) and the other who listens to the likes of Disturbed, Staind etc. Neither of them is into Crimson, but that won't stop me trying to indoctrinate the ungrateful little b*st*rds (lol). Anyway, about time KC came to UK, let me see them once more before we both give up, at least there's Peter Hammill to look forward to in February. BP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:53:29 -0000 From: "Wafo" Subject: TPTB Wow! Just read the reviews of TPTB on Evo's site(http://www.geocities.com/evo_music/) (Thanks Tiz) - it sounds amazing. Sid Smith says, "With 'The Power To Believe', King Crimson have most assuredly delivered the key album of their most recent phase and arguably, of their entire 33-year career." I believe him. Simply can't wait. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:57:09 +1300 From: David Maclennan Subject: Yee-hah! I got "The Power To Believe" today!!!!!!!!!! Christmas came early this year: I went into one of my regular music stores today to buy an empty 2-CD case I needed -- and walked out with a promo copy of The Power To Believe! What a buzz having a new KC studio album two months before it hits the shops! And way down here in NZ of all places. First impressions (based on one listening): to coin a phrase, I LIKE IT!!! For one thing, the production is better than TCOL (and THRAK too for that matter). And as for the "Nuevo Metal" thing, I actually think it's less "heavy" sounding than TCOL on the whole (although tracks like "Facts of Life" certainly shred). Familiar tracks like "Level Five", "Elektrik" and "Dangerous Curves" are much more fully rounded here (especially the latter), and the version of "Eyes Wide Open" is superior to the version on the "Happy..." EP. Those of you who did'nt like "Happy..." may be pleasantly surprised. Or not. Overall, a more balanced effort sonically than TCOL, and a strong effort compositionally. I will be interested to see how it grows on me in the coming weeks. A fuller review will follow when I've listened to it some more. (And please don't ask me to burn copies because I won't. And I don't have the technology anyway.) David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 2002 11:00:43 +0100 From: crimson1 at interia dot pl Subject: Next year KC show Hello All Crimheads, I'm writing from somwhere in Poland, and just wanna share with some picking news about next year KC shows. I just finished internet chat with Ade Belew, who suppose to be in Warsaw this days. He said : "See You next year in KC show on Warsaw Summer Jazz Days in July (2003)." So I'm really happy they'll come here AGAIN !!! BTW. It's gonna be no so easy to catch some tickets for It, I believe... If somebody from outside Poland would like to see that concert, I'll try to help. This is my mail: crimson1 at interia dot pl Merry Christmas and Happy with... Marek Labuda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:54:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Richard Rees Jones Subject: Noise Wafo wrote: As for Disc 2, I keep trying to imagine what on Earth was going on in the collective DGM heads by cutting out the sound for a minute. But it must be a joke too. In fact, if anyone has the patience to listen through what is essentially a barrage of noise for around 45 minutes, they'll feel pretty disorientated when it just cuts off like that - I did at any rate, sitting there with my headphones on and my ears ringing. Then, just when you've readjusted, the whole thing starts again, that endless noise... Putting the end of the song onto it by that point seems a bit pointless, because who cares? It's just a load of noise, not a song. This description is the first I've read about 'Ladies of the Road' that makes me want to buy the thing. There is nothing wrong with a good bit of noise in music, and some of my favourite bands - Whitehouse, AMM, Nurse With Wound - have made whole careers out of finely crafted explorations into the aesthetics of noise. Let's be clear on this - to call something 'a load of noise' is not a pejorative description. Richard Rees Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:12:35 +0200 From: "Jari Schroderus" Subject: Re: Belew >By the way, while we're at this... Am I very very wrong or is that Ade >singing on "City of Tiny Lives" from "Sheik Yerbouti"? After all, Frank >*did* recruit Adrian because he was a guitar-player/singer. I don't have the cd with me at the moment, but if I remember correctly, the only song that Belew sings on Sheik Yerbouti is Jones Crusher. t:j) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:22:20 -0000 From: "S.P. Goodman" Subject: "Starless..." In ET #1068 (still amazing how many there've been, Toby! Good work is its own reward!) "Anna Rose" put forth: (iii) 'Starless and Bible Black' is a quote from somewhere, isnt it? Or so I've heard. What from? (Does it say on the ET website, and my grasp of technology does not extend to finding it??) [ To save bandwidth, I'll chip in to say that it's from "Under Milk Wood" by Dylan Thomas: "It is Spring, moonless night in the small town, starless and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched, courter's-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboat-bobbing sea." -- Toby ] Is the snippet on the back of the album ("This night wounds time") also from Dylan Thomas? [ noooooo. See http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq/faq4.htm#q79 -- Toby ] S.P. Goodman EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net/Gallery - Cartoons and Illustrations! http://www.earthlight.net/HiddenTrack - Cartoons via Medialine! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:02:52 -0000 From: "S.P. Goodman" Subject: "This is my Art, and it is Dangerous!" (quote above from "Beetlejuice") Call me stacked up with work! In ET #1068 "Jordan Clifford" >GrooveHolmes394 at hotmail dot com> answered Anna Rose's tale of music class: >>Anyway... I played 'Easy Money' in my music class and the response was, >>er, not exactly welcoming. Teacher: (trying to be complimentary because I >>have already played him some Captain Beefheart which he REALLY didn't >>like): 'Well, it's certainly different.......' Class: 'Turn it off! We >>want the teacher to play us Nat King Cole on the piano! This is terrible! >>It's even worse than the Pink Floyd!' At least they called them THE Pink Floyd! I haven't heard them referred to as that since the BBC broadcast-on-tape of an "Ummagumma" period performance somewhere round 1971 or so: I still fondly remember the announcer hushedly saying, "Roger Waters actually produces that effect with his own voice," referring to "One of These Days..." I too had friends at the time that would leave parties if they played PF, saying crunchy things like "Ooooh the walls are breathing!" (quite similar in its ignorance to the loud comments by a bartender at the RF "Soundscapes" House of Blues show in 1997!). A bit disconcerting, however, to hear that them there younger folks might be getting horribly middle-of-the-road! I had thought that the ones trying to grow up in the midst of the early 80s had it tough (with their over-sheltering parents pounding the "Sex/Drugs/Nuclear War/Sex/Pollution/Drugs will kill you" message into them), who was surprised when they started jumping off bridges with bungee cords tied on, and pursuing other means of almost killing themselves for fun? (Only partially facetious, folks). In MY 7th grade, our music teacher was far more hip, though not recklessly so - and invited us all to bring in an LP to play a single cut we thought was "great music". While a dim few brought in some excruciating pop music (one of them with "Sugar Sugar" [shudder]), the rest of us had a ball. I brought in Steppenwolf's "Monster". Great song, still is! However! Two people brought in the soundtrack from the stage production of "Hair", which in its day was pretty frightening to the oldsters nonetheless. Why, you might ask? How about the songs "Sodomy" and "Colored Spade"? Those were the ones chosen by each of 'em. Boy, did THAT needle come off the disk QUICKLY! So, ya wanna hear something REALLY scary? Well, if your RealOne player doesn't lock your machine up anyway... "Sodomy": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00000JYU8001002/102-7076437-7199344 "Colored Spade": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00000JYU8001004/102-7076437-7199344 > wow. but that is to be expected with the generic student your age. I > played some KC for my family once and they werent really digging it at > all. I had LTIA with me and played some selections from that. My sister > said that Book of Saturday and Exiles were like the same song (???), and > my mom said 'well, it certainly is interesting...'. at least she didnt > say 'what is that awful racket??'. she did make me turn LTIA pt 1 off > just when it was getting good. Her 'nerves' can't handle it. On one hand, my parents, 50s parents natch, actually believed the stuff about song lyrics pulling us all over to the Dark Side (thanks in no small part to Elvis convincing Richard Nixon of the Beatles' conspiracy in this regard), and one awful Saturday morning in 1970 I was pulled out of bed and put in front of a bowl of corn flakes, to be read choice lyric selections from "Tommy" by my mother, such as "Cousin Kevin", "The Acid Queen", and the ever-lovable "Fiddle About". Sheesh! I don't need to tell you it didn't make much of a difference beyond my adoption of stealth techniques throughout my teens! On the other hand though, fast forward to 1977, when, while working on some furniture stripping with my mother, I treated her to "Animals", conveniently coughing over the lyric from "Pigs" where Mary Whitehouse is addressed: "YOU f*cked up, old hag..." She actually liked "Sheep" of all things. Later that week I played guitar along to "Dark Side of the Moon", and she liked that too. Bizarre contrast to be sure (on my mom's part, not PF!) Hint! If you introduce King Crimson to oldsters (young and old!) as "jazz" they might be more receptive. :) There is hope. Don't give up. S.P. Goodman EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net/Gallery - Cartoons and Illustrations! http://www.earthlight.net/HiddenTrack - Cartoons via Medialine! ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1069 *********************************