Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1068 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1068 Monday, 9 December 2002 Today's Topics: Re: Pictures of Robert Peter Gabriel at Mohegan Sun, last month sometime levin/levin-squire/top dgm releases/trey gunn band 3 things belew download/mastica Belew Re: kccc Where Crim miss the target anuther misspell... PETER GABRIEL: GROWING UP LIVE IN TORONTO, 2002 Nat King Colimson Re: KC is fun Re: mars Re: fripp with tool? projekct two Devil's Triangle / Mars Re: Improv Re: Improv...sorry forgot about this bit at the bottom Re: Slightly off topic with AB reference Sid Smith's 'Power To Believe' review on Evo Music site ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 09:11:03 +0100 From: "Eddy de Causmaecker" Subject: Re: Pictures of Robert Very hard to find, pictures of Mr. Fripp, here's an older one: http://www.eclipse.net/~synergy/petergabrielpix/pg2/pg2pix.htm Best Wishes, Eddy Flycatcher flycatcher at zeelandnet dot nl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 09:39:29 +0000 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: Peter Gabriel at Mohegan Sun, last month sometime Hi, I wasn't planning to comment on the recent Peter Gabriel concert at the Mohegan Sun casino in Middle-of-Nowhere, CT, but everyone else is putting their two cents in, so what the heck. Also, I'm a bit drunk right now. By all rights, it should have been the greatest concert I've ever seen. But it wasn't. For a grand old man, Gabriel was in great voice and had enough energy to power all of New England for several months. Despite seeming too old for some of the shenanigans he pulled, he appeared to be having a great time. The band was great; aside from the resplendent T-Lev (who got a huge ovation during the band intros; Gabriel saved him for last and called him "the emperor of the low end," or something like that) playing his Music Man 5-strings and NS upright (no Stick to be seen this night), this lineup also featured the wonderful David Rhodes on guitar, who had almost as much stage presence as PG; Richard Evans on guitar and flute (is he the same guy who recorded & toured with Michael Brook and Djivan Gasparyan, or just another world-music/rock guy with the same name?), PG's daughter Melanie on backing vox, and the well-known Rachel Z on keyboards. Ged Lynch (?) was on drums, and did a man's work, though he did have an unenviable job filling in for the likes of Manu Katche and Jerry Marotta. The material was top-notch too. There were judicious choices from the back catalog; PG opened with a solo "Here Comes the Flood" (close to the RF Exposure version; PG even went for the high notes at the end). Later was "Red Rain" with T-Lev and his funk fingers creating a low end that could fill the universe. The rendition of "Mercy Street," with Melanie sitting in a canoe and the other band members sitting at the edge of the stage, slowly revolving, has been mocked by other ET'ers, but was a real highlight for me; musical impressionism at its finest. "Sledgehammer" was dirty fun as always, and I LOVED the inverted gymnastics during the "Upside-Down" song (didn't know that one coming in, and I'm obviously still hazy on the title). And the new songs went over great, especially "Sky Blue" and "Growing Up." His new album "Up" is among his best; please pick it up (unfortunately, you'll have no problem finding it in the used racks now) and give it time, as it's quite subtle. The Blind Boys from Alabama I thought were terrific, but the Tanzanian duo that followed was an anticlimax. So what was the problem? The audience, more specifically the lack of it. I think Gabriel priced himself out of competition (our cheap seats were an eye-popping $65, which I really worked hard to justify spending), and I suppose a lot of people decided to stay home and listen to "So" instead of putting out big bucks for tickets. Consequently, some incredible piece of musical theater would occur onstage, and when the spotlights hit the audience, I could plainly see that the house was about 25-35% empty. This was quite depressing. I kept expecting Gabriel to welcome us to his rehearsal tour, and to say that he hoped to be trying it out on a real life-size audience next year. The sort of high-energy multimedia extravaganza that he aimed to put on NEEDED a huge, throbbing crowd to bring it to life, the kind he was getting on the Secret World tour. Without that, it seemed a bit cold and smarmy. That notwithstanding, I'll remember the show for a long time, and say confidently that Gabriel's one of the most gifted stage performers I've ever seen (up there with Billy Joel, Mel Torme, Tony Bennett, and Polly Harvey), and also that it's pretty rare to find pop music that's this emotionally and artistically satisfying, pretentious as that may sound (bearing in mind that this IS Elephant Talk). Maybe when he tours again in another 10 years, he'll try to keep the ticket prices down, and then everything will be perfect. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 11:10:09 +0000 From: "dileep bagnall" Subject: levin/levin-squire/top dgm releases/trey gunn band 1. Tony's bass playing on Don't Give Up (So) has to be the finest example of the art I'm aware of. 2. Any chance of a Tony Levin/Chris Squire CD? 3. Top 5 DGM releases (in order) 1. The Bridge In Between- The Robert Fripp String Quintet. 2. HWWYHTBHW- King Crimson 3. Op Zop Too Wah- Adrian Belew 4. World Diary- Tony Levin 5. Bruford Levin Upper Extremities 4. Someone convince me I should buy Double Espresso (please). 5. Is there a difference in musical style/approach between the Trey Gunn Band and Trey's solo work? Kreem Fuj (warming up nicely) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 11:12:11 +0000 From: "Anna Rose" Subject: 3 things (i) I have just bought EARTHBOUND. It isn't King Crimson!!! (if you know what i mean) (ii) All you people who have been to PG concerts - stop complaining. Do you know how much I would give to see ANYONE in concert... Come to play in Britain Peter! (iii) 'Starless and Bible Black' is a quote from somewhere, isnt it? Or so I've heard. What from? (Does it say on the ET website, and my grasp of technology does not extend to finding it??) [ To save bandwidth, I'll chip in to say that it's from "Under Milk Wood" by Dylan Thomas: "It is Spring, moonless night in the small town, starless and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched, courter's-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboat-bobbing sea." -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 11:44:21 +0000 From: "dileep bagnall" Subject: belew download/mastica Incompetence and Indifference is great! Happy Hols, Adrian. I've heard clips of Mastica's CD. I'm not sure yet. I'll let you know. Kreem Fuj (through the other side of Genius) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:43:03 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Belew >3. I've been a KC fan since Thrak, but I'm still not entirely sure how to > pronounce 'Belew'. Can someone confirm? "Beloo" is my best bet. That's how I heard it on Frank Zappa's "Sheik Yerbouti" album (at the end of "Yo' Mama", where he presents all the band members). By the way, while we're at this... Am I very very wrong or is that Ade singing on "City of Tiny Lives" from "Sheik Yerbouti"? After all, Frank *did* recruit Adrian because he was a guitar-player/singer. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:18:41 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: kccc > For those fans, like me, who can't afford to be a club member--and > wouldn't be able to catch up with all the releases even if I >did join--I > think "Ladies" is an excellent release. Is it possible that people are still NOT aware that the KCCClub , the Club itself, as in needing a membership to be apart of it is no longer in affect? You are now free to buy each reasonably priced, yet priceless KCCC disc without any commitment to buy any others. I've bought about 8 individually, without ever signing up to get every disc that comes out. For that reason I am glad I didn't buy Ladies Of The Road. I ordered it, but I had to cancel my credit card before the order was charged. And I'm glad, because of all the bad reviews I got from it. I don't like compilations, I don't like abridged versions. The only real reason I want this is for the collage of sax and guitar solos on the second disc. And I might still buy it just for that, we'll see. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:17:46 +0000 From: "Anna Rose" Subject: Where Crim miss the target Hi Crimheads! Does anyone else ever get the feeling that, occasionally, where Crim fell down in what they were doing was when they were trying to be something they weren't? Some KC tracks just aren't as good.... It's like, on most of the albums there's one composition that just seems to get a bit meaningless: Moonchild, Providence, Starless & Bible Black are the off-the-top-of-head examples. They come across as not quite reaching their target; a bit like the way Rush tried to be meaningful, but they weren't, and the Alan Parsons Project tried to be Pink Floyd, but wasn't. Can you think of a better way of putting this into words? (I have a feeling that this post is turning into one of the afore-mentioned tracks, so I'll stop here.) KC 4ever! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:17:09 -0500 From: "Buddy Fries" Subject: anuther misspell... > Have you noticed that on the cover of the anniversary remastered > reissue of Red, "One more red nightmare" is listed as "One mere red > nightmare" (on the original CD issue it is correct... On a related note, I recently bought "Happy..." at a local Wal-Mart (WAL-MART?!?!?) and I notice on the credits/thanx page "Drum Paraidse", instead of "Drum Paradise". Eagle-eyed or anal retentive? You make the call... - Buddy Fries GE d? s-,s !g p?+ au a- w+ v++ C++ US- >++++,C+ P?>+++ L>++ !3 E-- N+ W- M-- V po Y+(--) t 5 j++ R- (--) G'''' tv- b+ D--(++) B-- e>++ u*(++) h! f* !r !n y Race to Save the Primates - every click provides food! http://www.care2.com/go/z/primates ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 22:08:20 -0500 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: PETER GABRIEL: GROWING UP LIVE IN TORONTO, 2002 Tonight, I attended a concert @ THE AIR CANADA CENTRE, in the company of my good friends NEAL & SUE, as their guest. Also present were my good friend MARK & his friend CYNTHIA, whom I met for the first time. (Fascinating woman, and not shy about her musical tastes, I am happy to report!) Having been shown a DVD performance of SECRET WORLD LIVE, I was very pumped up about seeing the show, as I knew that M. ROBERT LePAGE had been collaborating on the staging, once again. Alas, I did not become as excited by the concert as I had hoped, with the exception of "SIGNAL TO NOISE", which I had never heard before, as I do not yet own his current album. I thought this number to be the high point of the concert. Several other songs I enjoy were played, but I found the arrangements lacklustre, and the musicians not up to the job. Also, the music was just too muted & quiet for A Rock Show. I thought the personnel assembled for this band to be the weakest with whom MR. GABRIEL has ever toured - barring MESSRS. LEVIN & RHODES! - and the entire experience was so far beneath SECRET WORLD: LIVE! that I found myself becoming deeply dejected. Of especial note was the splendid contribution by MS. PAULA COLE on that tour, who impressed me so mightily that I purchased all her solo albums in 1 fell swoop, thereafter. (First & second albums still my favourites, in that order; third good music, but overall album duration too short, by far!) MR. GABRIEL'S daughter made a valiant effort, but she is not in that league, and lacks the showmanship of the woman whose tall "Black Boots" she attempted to fill. I was impressed by the Theatrical aspects of this performance, but the heavy reliance upon beat box, embellished by the too-quiet, too-slow Drummer in his employ, made me want to rush the stage, snatch the sticks from his hands, and play the material myself! I recalled an interview with MR. BILL BRUFORD in MODERN DRUMMERtm wherein he talked about his experience as an audient @ a concert by MR. GABRIEL, which he had enjoyed, but which was marred somewhat by the fact that there were many pre-programmed percussive noises being heard, but not played by the Drummer (MR. JERRY MAROTTA, @ the time, I believe). Thus, BILFORD felt that he was being cheated, denied of the experience of seeing someone strike the drums to create the music he was hearing. BILFORD went on to put his money where his mouth was, when, 7 years later in 1989, he toured with ANDERSON/BRUFORD/WAKEMAN/HOWEtm, using SIMMONStm Electronics, but activating them himself, in Real Time. Progressive Rock must first ROCK, THEN look good onstage! The fact that my backstage invitation was stonewalled by a series of overzealous employees who caused my time to be wasted for over an hour, did little to appease me, nor to mitigate the experience I had just had. [ Dude, go easy on the CAPS, ok? Please? -- TOBY ] MALCOLM XERXES Batterie/Percussives http://www.malcolmxerxes.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:18:19 +0100 From: George Koopman Subject: Nat King Colimson Anna Rose wrote: "Anyway... I played 'Easy Money' in my music class and the response was, er, not exactly welcoming. Teacher: (trying to be complimentary because I have already played him some Captain Beefheart which he REALLY didn't like): 'Well, it's certainly different.......' Class: 'Turn it off! We want the teacher to play us Nat King Cole on the piano! This is terrible! It's even worse than the Pink Floyd!' " Can't your teacher play Nat King Colimson? 21st Century Nature Boy? And yes, Anna, music is purely for entertainment. And entertainment is fun!! And No, Dileep, NO band with any (former) Simple Minds member is a supergroup. But, of course, that's my simple opinion... Perhaps Nat King Cole on keyboards? While I'm at it, I only just received my copy of "Happy", some ten lightyears after it became available in the US. I guess if've got to be happy with that... G-man ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:26:36 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: KC is fun >>Anyway... I played 'Easy Money' in my music class and the response was, >>er, not exactly welcoming. Teacher: (trying to be complimentary because I >>have already played him some Captain Beefheart which he REALLY didn't >>like): 'Well, it's certainly different.......' Class: 'Turn it off! We >>want the teacher to play us Nat King Cole on the piano! This is terrible! >>It's even worse than the Pink Floyd!' wow. but that is to be expected with the generic student your age. I played some KC for my family once and they werent really digging it at all. I had LTIA with me and played some selections from that. My sister said that Book of Saturday and Exiles were like the same song (???), and my mom said 'well, it certainly is interesting...'. at least she didnt say 'what is that awful racket??'. she did make me turn LTIA pt 1 off just when it was getting good. Her 'nerves' can't handle it. I've come to find even when I think people will enjoy hearing it for the first time just purely cause its cool and interesting and can rock really hard sometimes, they don't. I don't understand it, it only took a few listens to get me hooks on everything they've ever put out. I thought for sure Book of Sat.>Exiles>Easy Money was a sequence of great songs, both listener friendly and representive of KC brilliance, and yet the response is not very welcoming. Eventually everyone was glad I took it off and my sister complained that I had it on too long. Even though she said that she liked Easy Money when i tried to get her into them last year. Oh well, I can rest well knowing that my KC collection is not something else she will steal and damage, cause I certainly value those CDs quite a bit more than I value trying to expand her musical horizens. Also, of course KC is fun to listen to. It's not JUST 'interesting' music. I have a ton of CDs i get and then don't listen to or don't get familar with because I find myself going on a KC binge instead. I can't believe how much I listen to them, and how one thought of one song launches me into a complete retrospective of the time period the song in mind came from. The more I talk the more I want to relisten to all my KC cds. so I'm off.. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:31:35 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: mars >>Notwithstanding a reviewer quoted in 'The Young Person's Guide to KC' >>praising KC's performance of 'Mars,' it was truly not until I heard the >>live performances on 'Epitaph' that I realized that they actually played >>it straight BEFORE 'The Devil's Triangle' appeared. I happen to enjoy the 69 band's rendition of "Mars" a lot more than "The Devil's Triangle".. but I've listened to "Mars" a lo more than "The Devil's Triangle". But I just thought I'd offer my opinion that I think the live version of "Mars" on the first disc of Epitaph is one of the most intense, captivating, and absolutely frightening songs they've ever done, or that I've ever heard in my life. It is stunning. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:38:28 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: fripp with tool? >Especially for the one in which RF joins Tool for some improv. Does such a thing exist? Did that really happen on that tour? If so I think I'd give my, or at least someone elses left arm to have that. So please, Conact me privately as well [ OK kids, go ahead and play, but remember to send a copy to DGM just in case they don't have it. OK? --Toby ] thanks Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:43:03 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: projekct two >I was pretty disappointed with "Projekt Two", in fact it sent me away from >KC for some time. I do feel somewhat cheated, because I previously had a >sight-unseen ("sound-unheard"?) buying policy for RF work. It does feel to >me like it was just "hey we got an hour recorded! might as well release a >CD". Hey, any of you guys out their who own but are disapointed with the ProjeKct Two release PLEASE send your copy my way. I love it, but my copy got a little messed up. Any interested folks willing to give to charity (me?) or willing to sell? contact me please Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:28:14 +0100 From: Laurent Masse Subject: Devil's Triangle / Mars >So what's my beef? Simply put, 'Mars' by KC and 'The Devil's Triangle' by >KC *are* two different pieces of music. The latter borrows a great deal >from the former, to be sure, specifically rhythm and the main chord >progression. But it also goes places vastly diffferent than the original >composition, and it's easy to tell a performance of 'Mars' (e.g. from >'Epitaph') from a performance of 'The Devil's Triangle' (e.g on the 'Live >in Detroit' club cd, I *think*). So why is the latter listed on the CD as >'Mars'? It's clearly TDT. The Devil's Triangle would have been called Mars had they obtained the right to use the name back in 1970. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:01:17 +0100 From: "Andrew Thiermann" Subject: Re: Improv >I was pretty disappointed with "Projekt Two", in fact >it sent me away >from KC for some time. I do feel >somewhat cheated, because I previously >had a sight->unseen ("sound-unheard"?) buying policy for RF work. It >does >feel to me like it was just "hey we got an hour >recorded! might as well >release a CD". The ProjeKts were never meant to be 'money making' releases, ie releases that were made just to make money. If you had read what was going on in the diaries of RF and others it was a new way of reforming the band. I don't remember RF's words exactly, but it was something along the lines of "King Crimson is going through a developmental change. In the past when this happend the band broke up and was reformed a year or more later when the musicians were right for the new sounds and the time was right to produce them, this time however, rather than ending the group as it is, we are going to form projekts where, whom ever is free at the time to explore new ways of moving forward in Crimson." (Please remember I'm trying to paraphrase something I read 3 years ago) In my view the Projekts were and excellent outing. Not only did they give us an interesting perspective on how the music can develop using different musicians, at different times, in an improv situation, it also gave us some great music to listen to in the few years between major releases. In my view, with some of KCs fans I don't know how RF or ANYONE in the band can do any right. I'm not saying they are gods, or perfect, but somehow people just can't be happy. They take a break and it's 4 years between releases and people get angry "where has my Crimson gone?" then they release a new album, maybe good, maybe bad, but it's definatly not going to be along the same lines as the last formation, and people are mad because this new crimson isn't a rehashing of music they have already heard before, if you want to hear a band play the same kind of music year in and year out go buy a Yes album. (oh, that was sort of harsh, but in my view true, they don't change, they don't evolve, they stick to tried and true methods to produce albums, fine that's their deal) Crimson have always been a band who have evolved, who have not sat on their laurals and who have consistantly tried to push the boundries, of the music and of themselves, and I think that's fantastic. I think that it allows them to be forgiven for one bad album or song here or there. Sheesh, sorry about that I got to rambleing. Back to the ProjeKts. Like I said, I feel they are an interesting window into the song development process, they allowed us to experience what improv with KC is like, they gave us a few albums to listen to between major album releases. If you like interesting improv then go out and get them, if you don't like improv, some discordal stuff, dynamic forward thinking pieces then don't buy them. I think they are great, but I know many who don't but don't accuse them of being some scheme for RF and crew to get more money out of us, because that they certainly weren't. Well there's my two cents, and about $15. Later. Andrew >Are the other "Projekt" releases different? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:08:44 +0100 From: "Andrew Thiermann" Subject: Re: Improv...sorry forgot about this bit at the bottom >Are the other "Projekt" releases different? All the releases are different, they have different players etc. ProjeKt one is the only one with accoustic drums on it, ProjeKt four is probably my favorite, but is the most hectic. ProjeKt Three is very interesting it's edited and is reccommended to be listened to on 'random'. I also think that ProjeKt two is very interesting(Adrien on Drums, neat!). You will find the beginings of The Deception of the Thrush and other beginings of songs (parts of Larks' Tongues etc...) All in all like I've said I think it's interesting, but like all KC stuff, not for everyone. Sorry about the two posts. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:25:24 +0000 From: Matt Nolan Subject: Re: Slightly off topic with AB reference > I have an itch to purchase a FZ video. Odd. I had the same itch a month or so ago - must be going round... Hopefully avoiding any big debates on bootlegging, I have found that Ebay is a good source of DVDs or VCDs (that most DVD players will play) of various old Zappa videos. Sure, these are dodgy home-burns and are overpriced, but when there is no legitimate source currently, I'll risk lining some cheeky entrepreneurs pockets. Bringing us back on topic, I most recently got hold of a DVD of (a VHS video of) a BBC Zappa retrospective documentary. Basically just lots of live and studio footage. I must say that it is excellent and that it features Adrian in the live band quite heavily. Mostly singing, but I think there's a little salient guitar work too. At first, I wasn't sure if it was really him - quite different vocal style to current - but it is our very own AB. Looks like Terry Bozzio on the drums in these clips too, I didn't realise they'd played together like this. '76 to '78 period. It would be great if some of these old tours could be brought out officially, especially on DVD. I'm sure there'd be a big enough market for it to be feasible. Regards, Matt Nolan. -- Shameless advertising: http://www.runturkeyrun.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:23:56 -0000 From: "Tiz @ Evo Music site" Subject: Sid Smith's 'Power To Believe' review on Evo Music site Sid Smith has kindly submitted his 'Power To Believe' review, now published on Evo Music site http://www.geocities.com/evo_music/ Sid : "the most human and humane example of their music to date." Tiz : "challenge-and-reward for 'woolly jumper wearers', + Epitaph-esque tenderness for women! . Arguably for people sharing my gender (female), there is proportionately more 'tenderness' on the CD-EP 'Happy With...' than the full CD 'The Power To Believe' - conversely, 'woolly jumper wearers' may experience even greater satisfaction from the CD than the EP - but the intensity of pleasure is greater for both! Note : 'woolly jumper wearer' = male-Crim-enthusiast, as perceived by John Wetton - mentioned to me during interview, affectionately recalling his Crim days, LOL! Imperfect gender divider, of course, cos I'm female but in the current cold weather of England made sure to wear a thick woolly jumper whilst at the recent Burning Shed label weekend of gigs at which Centrozoon members + Gong's Theo Travis performed with virtually all acts, from Hugh Hopper to Roger Eno! Tiz @ Evo Music site (think evolutionary!) http://www.geocities.com/evo_music/ select 'news' for latest EVO e-digest (or subscribe) e-address : info at evo-music dot freeserve dot co dot uk ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1068 *********************************