Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1064 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1064 Monday, 2 December 2002 Today's Topics: musique concrete Neal, Mr. Beezelbub, and DVD ideas. Re: It's a Serious Profession... tattoo RF's compositional style improv/hwwyhtbhw/i have a dream/not fun? Re Crimtoos Re: "Double Expresso" by Tony Levin VIRELAI -- Sad Steps Levin, Wakeman together ? Re: HC video - a cry fo help Michael Giles/Progress Move over Rover, the Lord's taking over... KC fans KC fans Revisited REVIEW: Rachel Z and Tony Levin at J&R Music Re: Merriweather Post Pavi, Columbia, Maryland 1984 show Bowie and Belew on Beat Club, Fripp and UP concert in manchester/website Re: Something Crimsonesque SID SMITH'S BOOK HARDBACK FOR SALE ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:01:44 +1100 From: "Peter Tarrant" Subject: musique concrete Hi, The term musique concrete was "first coined in 1949 by Pierre Shaeffer to desciribe music made of real sounds, tape-recorded and minipulated in various ways played faster or slower or backwards, or as a montage of scraps with overtones added or subtracted, a so on." (Stolen from an old Oxford Companion to Music.) Some of the more well known composers who found themselves interested in this area were Pierre Boulez, Olivier Messiaen, and John Cage. This ould not be thought of as "electronic music" which used electronically created sounds as opposed to utilising natural (or "found") sounds, as well as their manipulation on audio tape. In my opinion this form of music can be thought of as an early form of sampling. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:27:53 -0800 From: "D.C." Subject: Neal, Mr. Beezelbub, and DVD ideas. Neal was only performed on the latter end of the Discipline tour (1981) as it was roughly written and experimented with and throughout the Beat tour in 82. Any reason why they never performed this song since? It is no less commercial or accessible than Heartbeat which they performed on the 94 tour and it even sprung back up on various 95 dates. I noticed Mr.Fripp selected a song from the 07/01/95 Wiltern Theatre Los Angeles as a filler on one of the collectors discs. This show is a real treat. On 6/30/95 they performed Heartbeat. I attended the 6/29/95 and the 07/01/95 shows. These are strong contenders for future Club releases. For DVD candidates I nominate: Musikladen Beat Club 10/72 Midnight Special TV 06/12/73 Central Park New York 06/25/73 {with Jim Dandy Arkansas no less} Robert Fripp Midnight Special 10/05/79 Fridays ABC TV performance 12/5/81 King Crimson Alabamahalle, Munich Germany TV 09/82 Heartbeat and Sleepless videos I noticed somewhere in one of those Record Collector magazines that a clip of Fripp on Midnight Special exists running around 5 minutes or so and that Blondie also appeared on the same show. In the Great Deceiver box set booklet there is a pic of Crimson with Mr.Wolfman Jack himself when they performed on Midnight Special. Of course during the days when VH1 was even slightly watchable they re broadcasted a slew of Midnight Specials some years back. As I viewed most of them I did not catch either this episode or Fripp's 79 brief encounter. Speaking of VH1, in the late 80's they actually covered a small market of the jazz arena with a show called New Visions. I spotted an episode when Bruford was hosting and he compiled a misc. panel of rock and roll guests including a member of the Clash and Roger Daltry who was hilarious. Bill talked about when Hendrix invaded England he had attended a show to check out Mitch Mitchell. Also another episode featured Bill, Tony Levin and David Torn. Gabriel's video Games Without Frontiers was shown only briefly on MTV in their first year and then it disappeared. Why hasn't Pete ever released this? The choreography is a bit twisted and irrelevant to the lyrics but it is bizarre enough and no one makes videos like Mr. Pete. Copyrights are a burden left to the demonic parties involved in the TV industry. Little by little a great amount of the concert footage films of yesteryears are being released on DVD. TV is a whole different matter. Well on a dismal note West L.A. Fadeaway and Orange County, CA are in serious dire need of good entertainment. No one is touring here. We have all but killed off sports teams from playing here and these Spiral Architects design these Empires that cost as much as a lifetime debt. Staples Center is pathetic, stale and cold like a bank. I even miss the Great Western Forum when Gabriel last performed there on a 40 foot stage and telephone chord on the US tour and even better is the Long Beach Arena I hope King sticks to the theatres. As for King making the big time, their impact is immeasurable. 30 years is all good and worth it regardless of the grand scheme of things. CD sales may be a make or break for the Collectors Club so pass the word and let us all keep the music education alive. We can not rely on the RIAA or did we ever for that matter? Ok for a short spell we did. Live music ruleth. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:23:47 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: Re: It's a Serious Profession... Hello 21st C S Hippies... >Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:51:13 -0300 >From: "The Necron Stratomailer" >Subject: Rock taken seriously > > >Does anyone have anything interesting to say about people who treat prog > >as though it were classical music? > >Such thing exists? Hmmm. Interesting. There is some prog rock out there >which could be compared to classical music in terms of structure, >composition, etc: Quite a bit of Yes, some ELP... certainly a LOT of KC. So >I wouldn't find it as "annoying" as you do. > > >MUSIQUE CONCRETE was mentioned - apparently a fancy name for music with > >noises in it. > >Now, this is *my* opinion: While you could say that, using noises in music >results, in essence, in... well, music *with* noises, I think the final >effect is a lot more transcendental than having someone hitting pots, >glasses and tupperware while you listen to your stereo. > > >It is quite annoying when people talk about rock music seriously. I am > >sure the reason it was invented was to NOT be taken seriously. > >3 things: > >1) Most ET readers seem to agree on how bands (rock bands or otherwise) >MUST progress. I think they will agree on how the music (rock or otherwise) >MUST be taken seriously for it to progress. > >2) Where does your comment leave KC? While they are a great band (amazing >maybe), they are not fun to listen to. They are enjoyable, maybe we can say >that they give the listener "lots of pleasure", but they aren't really fun. >Just like eating pizza, or drinking a glass of water. Not that they're >boring - They are just not fun (they are serious; but very good, enjoyable, >and pleasing to listen to). > >And if you're about to say something about Adrian Belew's humoristic >lyrics: Yes, those are fun. But they are not the base of KC's music. > >3) What is the big deal about taking it seriously? Why can't rock music be >meaningful? > >Well then, later. > >Luis > my 2 cents pence groats worth... Interesting? First if people are going to apply training and inspiration to create music then why not take it seriously? Certainly record companies do, they make the most money out of it. But there are different levels of seriousness... and fun... But I assume it is the music that is meant in aesthetic terms? Rock and Roll in the fifties was taken VERY seriously by a wartime generation trying to escape the grey life. They rapturously knifed up cinema seats in youthful abandon to the strains of Rock Around The Clock before dropping Bill Haley for having committed the unforgivable sin of being aged 29 at the time of the big hit. Fun? serious?... The psych 60s were taken seriously by those active at the time and by many since. And still do. Fine. Hendrix on tour with The Monkees. I'd loved to have seen that. Still would... Seriously... The prog of the 70s was seriously taken by the audience. And why not? This was /is the New classical music that will probably be covered in various forms (even now with Tribute Acts) in the dim and distant yet rapidly approaching future. ran into trouble with the masters of rock and they dragged this ambitios beast down to it's 'proper' level. Ounk doing a very establishment job there. IMHO naturally. Then came trendy (vacuous) 80s and a dismal but still VERY seriously taken scene. Then of course you had the POP side of things. This is fun. Boy George, The Osmonds (70s I know but so much Fun), Destiny's Child, Michael, Bruteney, oops, I mean Britney. Fun for all the family and certainly hardly serious. Except fiscally. And superficially. They put a lot of work into this fun... Is this a question of musical integrity? Great stuctures of music may not be fun. So what? It's more enjoyable at a deeper level. Just that there are folks who aren't into that. Go to a retro disco for what is supposed to be fun and after a few hours of that (YMCA etc etc...)if you are into 'serious' music you'll be crying out for whatever is your musical integral fix. I had fun with 'HWWYHTBHW' Is that abbrev. right? I never can rememeber the title. I mean I was laughing at the 'Chorus' bit. That made a change. KC do a cKomedy recKord. ':D And tear the walls down with it. Well it's either KC or the Barron cKnights.... [ I think this is a first for ET. A mention of the awesome "Barron Knights". I got my first BK 45 in 1964 ("Call Up The Groups"). I still have it. Look no further than http://www.barronknights.com/ -- Toby ] I did hear a goth / metal version of Rod Stewart's 'D'ya Think I'm Sexy?'. Another version of a hilarious parody. Oh, it was serious??? the first time? Oops... does anybody remember laughter? Taking music seriously is not the same as being humourless. Just think how much fun we could have with Frank Zappa releases inspired by the WWWeb? When I hear something fulfilling I take it very seriously. But I like a laugh when the creators of this great music take their off-record musings public and their is something that makes you smile, angry, annoyed, worried etc. But 'Starless' is still there... Raving and droolings over... regards to all Lawrence NP: Led Zeppelin - Flying Circus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:36:57 EST From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: tattoo I hope that Brian Rupert remembered to pay royalties when he had the knot from 'Discipline' tatooed on himself. After all, the copyright rests with the artist who sees no reason to transfer it to any record company, management company or tattoo artist. If he hasn't paid copyright I'm afraid someone will have to go round to rip his arm off until he pays up. Gordon Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:34:22 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: RF's compositional style Anyone else ever get the impression that RF's compositional style has its roots more in chromatic guitar exercises than anything else? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:56:07 +0000 From: "dileep bagnall" Subject: improv/hwwyhtbhw/i have a dream/not fun? Am I alone in thinking that a lot of KC improv is just plain irritating? Some works very well, and when so attains a remarkable beauty. But most seems little more than an opportunity to record and release material relatively quickly and cheaply. Space Groove is the only bad KC (related) CD I've heard. The Deception of the Trush is challenging and enjoyable. HWWYHTBHW is very refreshing. In particular the title track and the new Larks' Tongues IV. The latter is much freer (and shorter). I bought the CD at the same time as Level Five. I think together they present a fair representation of KC currently. I Have A Dream is quite quite wonderful (I know this isn't topical but I'm new to ET and the Net). Whilst I don't sympathise with everything mentioned in the song I don't find it at all controversial. In an earlier posting someone said that listening to KC wasn't fun. Of course it is, and not just because of Adrian's whimsy. KC's music is largely serious but I find listening to a lot of their post-projekcts stuff immense fun. They are in the form of their lives. Dileep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:25:28 +0100 From: Alex Subject: Re Crimtoos I was verry suprised to read that someone else have the celtic knot from Discipline. On the internet is the image verry hard to get. But i knew a friend who draw verry good and he's also a designer of websites etc. So I ask tot the guy if he wanted to scan the picture to be fit on my arm. The people in the tatoo shop liked it verry much. There was one little problem. the pictere was to fine to set on my arm. it has to be 2 times bigger as it was possible to set. I wanted it verry wel on my arm so it was a problem. Then i asked the guy who draw the scan for me to make the black parts white and the white parts black... He did it and it's look verry good to fit on my arm. Now the picture is about 70 centimeters wide and the people there took 1,5 hour to make the drawing just as good as on the picture. After an hour i almost past out. The guy stopped for about 5 minutes and continued again:-) In about the 2 years that I have my crim tatoo, there's only one time that someone saw the tatoo and says to me: "hey, the tatoo on your arm, that's from King Crimson. I like that music to" Maybe, next year i'll be going again for a crim tatoo and i'm conciddering the inside picture of ITCOTCK (the face with the hand.) The sun and moon from LTiA is also verry beautifull. any other sugestions? Greetings Alex (sorry for my bad english) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:50:46 EST From: NajiBaji at aol dot com Subject: Re: "Double Expresso" by Tony Levin Hello Crimrades: I picked up the new double disc live release by To entitled "Double Expresso." WOW! What a treat. It was recorded earlier this year. Along with the great music the Tony Levin Band (including Jesse Gresse, Larry Fast, and Jerry Marrota), There are two Crim-covers Sleepless and Elephant Talk. The version of "Sleepless" is reworked but fantastic nonetheless. The California Guitar Trio shows up on a cover of "Peter Gunn." The CD set is also at a reasonable price. Let the Muse guide your spending habits in this direction. Thank You Tony, for a wonderful release. This makes up for not being able to afford the ridiculously high price of Peter Gabriel tickets... All the best, Dave Meshowski ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:54:46 +0100 From: "Ignacio Carlos Romeo Puolakka" Subject: VIRELAI -- Sad Steps Hi everyone! I've just received the latest record from Virelai. This is a group that performs ancient and new music. Among its members you will find Jacob Heringman, who released two very good records of solo lute on the DGM Present Moment series, that are worth to listen to. Sad Steps is a collection of new music composed for renaissence poems. Some of them wwere composed by Andrew Keeling, the same composer that works making arrangements of crimson material and soundscapes for orchestra. Also some of his works could be found on Opus 20's record Hidden Streams (DGM). The music by Keeling and the others is very fine, well executed and recorded. The set includes an arrangement of King Crimson's "Trio" by Keeling, that fits nicely within the record and it's very beautiful, as you may expect. Don't miss this jewell. Sad Steps by Virelai was published by RiverRun Records. Carlos Romeo. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:37:25 -0500 From: "Charles M. Dawes" Subject: Levin, Wakeman together ? I was at a local concert club this week in Buffalo, NY and they were advertising future events on the video screen. No details were given, just the words Tony Levin, Rick Wakeman coming soon. Could these two really be touring together? Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:12:17 -0500 (EST) From: david craig Subject: Re: HC video - a cry fo help > regarding Heavy Construkction video. I do not have the necessary > codec ie. Voxware Metasound. And my WMP both (7.1 and 9) could not > download it for me. Sad to say, you, and everyone else. Both Voxware, and Microsoft, have dropped support for the Voxware codec, and it has been stripped from recent releases of the WIMP on both the Mac OS and Windows. Bottom line: as far as I'm aware, the only way to view these properly is to use a very old version of the WIMP that still has Voxware support. (I've seen some pretty skanky hacks, but they aren't really practical for most.) I remember when there was this little spurt of activity from DGM and now-defunct spinoffs on the video front. While we were all delighted that they were being so generous as to release the MATERIAL, I think they were quite taken aback at the howls of protest from some quarters -- that would include me, for sure; I know at least a couple of people at DGM probably still hate me [;-] -- at their use of passwords, lame DRM (digital-rights-management) implementations, and so on. We must have seemed so ungrateful. But I hope they've been watching as time has worn on, as each one of those efforts has become inaccessible, unviewable for one reason or another. (Never mind the constant trickle of questions about those annoying passwords that were being used as a marketing tool.) And in HOW short a period of time? This is precisely the future we were railing against. I can only pray they're learning, and won't repeat these mistakes. [This, by the way, is why ya'll need to be paying attention to the Digital Media Cartel's efforts to persude Congress to let them control your digital lifestyle. Hollywood and the record industry doesn't want you to genuinely OWN any of your music or movies in the future. Think that's exaggerating? Trust me: that only means that you haven't been paying attention, and it's about time you should. I can only hope the EU behaves a bit more sensibly than the U.S. Congress has, to date.] Open standards. Or at least, widespread, cross-platform standards sans onerous DRM (e.g. QuickTime or MPEG). If DGM had released these videos in QuickTime, say, they'd all be viewable still, on Windows, Mac OS, or Linux. And would be for the forseeable future. And there'd be no more (nor less) bootlegging of the material than what already has occurred. There simply is no way to make digital media truly invulnerable to copying. Like missile defense - it's FAR easier (and vastly less costly) to overcome than it is to implement. All it takes is ONE crack, and you've lost the battle. Fripp understands the failure of old models well. I can only trust he will take that understanding and experience and craft a new model of distrihution in a digital future. We could use his creativity about now. David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:23:42 -0500 From: Gary Davis Subject: Michael Giles/Progress Hi, folks: Have I just missed it or has there been no mention here of Michael Giles new release, Progress? Although released in 2002, it was actually recorded in 1978 and has basically been in the vaults until now. It features Geoffrey Richardson, Peter Giles, John Perry, Dave McRae, John Mealing, Jimmy Hastings and more. I just got my copy recently and have only had a chance to play it a few times. But I have to say that I'm enjoying it immensely! We all know what a great drummer Michael Giles is and Progress has a stellar supporting cast. But the real eye and ear opener here is Michael Giles, the composer. According to the liner notes on the tray card, he is the sole composer on the album. And he does a great job. Any fan of early Crimson or McDonald and Giles is strongly recommended to get this album. I think it would be great if 21st Century Schizoid Band would consider playing something from this album! Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:25:11 -0600 From: "Jeffrey Breis" Subject: Move over Rover, the Lord's taking over... In response to Dave Allen: Just a bit of interesting information. "You Really Got Me" by the Kinks features Jon Lord on piano. Yes, I know, it's Purple, not Crimson, but he is the Keyboard King (not Wakeman, not Emerson). King Crimson probably did not have a regular keyboard player because Jon was too busy making Deep Purple amazing with Blackmore and Paice. Jon Lord's work could have fit in well with what Fripp was doing in the 1970s. They were both innovative, not afraid to astound with subtlety or mayhem. Deep Purple. The Kinks. King Crimson. All (somewhat) popular. All original. All great. PS. How's yer mom, Ed? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:39:47 -0600 From: "Jeffrey Breis" Subject: KC fans To Steve Munari: We (King Crimson fans) should be known as CRIMinals. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:44:09 -0600 From: "Jeffrey Breis" Subject: KC fans Revisited Oh, wait. I meant 'CRIM ANALS'. (We are, it seems). P.U. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:39:31 -0500 From: "Robert C. Parducci" Subject: REVIEW: Rachel Z and Tony Levin at J&R Music It was a nice show last week and the price was right (FREE). The Rachel Z Trio performed six songs - jazz interpretations of several Joni Mitchell compositions featured on her new album, "Moon at the Window." It was the first time Tony played with the trio. Rachel provided light banter between numbers and managed to plug both her record and Tony's new CD, "Double Espresso" as well as drummer Bobbie Rae's band, "Amplified." Tony played what looked like a "log-bass" and Rachel played an electronic keyboard which had a pretty good piano sound. They swung pretty well on the uptempo numbers and Tony took several lyrical solos. Afterwards the band signed autographs. There was a fair showing of Levin fans. The CD is recommended to anyone who is a fan of the jazz trio format. 1.. big yellow taxi 2.. free man in paris 3.. chinese cafe 4.. moon at the window 5.. lakota 6.. ladies man ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:28:32 -0500 (EST) From: donovan at bway dot net Subject: Re: Merriweather Post Pavi, Columbia, Maryland 1984 show the merriweather post pavillion june 30th, 1984 show did happen and it kicked ass yes. and i still have the ticket stub to prove it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 01:17:01 -0800 From: "D.C." Subject: Bowie and Belew on Beat Club, Fripp and UP Did anyone else catch VH1show the Bowie Musikladen Beat Club or was this only televised out of the continent? It would probably be from the Lodger era. Was Eno in the band? Lo and behold Behind the VH1 have finally survived and risen from Diva itus. Some interesting photos adorn the inside gatefold of Lodger. Belew is pictured and so is Carlos Alomar who was David's collaborator at the time. Could that be Eno's forehead or Belews? Fripp did a special interview for VH1 in Germany in 2000 when they played at the Circus Krone. Great interview I might add. He went into detail about his chance encounter with Giles and then Greg Lake in the 60's. Gabriel can literally take the stage home with him after he is done. I had the pleasure of attending the Genesis Shrine Show for the Lamb 01/24/75 and also caught him on the II, III and IV tour or Security as America insists on calling this album. IMHO the climatic US tour was unsurpassable. I seriously doubt Trick of the Tail and Duke would have been conceived in the same manner if Peter stayed with Genesis. Phil thought he was getting out of hand with the props. Go figure. "Though names may change each face retains the mask it wore". Not neccesarily in Phil's case. He had a great voice but did not capture Gabriel's aura. The French, Italian, Montreal and Oxford TV performances of Genesis between 71-74 are brilliant and very few stage commanders with the exception of Peter, Ian Anderson and Zep captivated the audience and stole the stage and never returned it. It was sure a priviledge to see Zep and Tull in the early 70's. I really regret never seeing King back then. When world famous KROQ had a half a clue they promoted K.C. at the Perkin's Palace in Pasadena on the Discipline tour. Dr. Memory oh what a memory. I have a question for Mr. Fripp. What future shows await the Club releases? Give us a hint. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 11:43:03 +0000 From: "dileep bagnall" Subject: concert in manchester/website King Crimson, PEASE come to Manchester. PLEASE. It is happening and quite cosmopolitan and outward-looking. I think KC would be warmly received at the Apollo Theatre. Could ET include 'return to top of page' at the bottom? It would make things easier. Dileep The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:59:25 -0600 From: vdorje at ev1 dot net Subject: Re: Something Crimsonesque >This I found the other day. A new band playing Crimson like music. They >are called Tow Truck Two. >http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/330/tow_truck_two.html >It's on mp3.com and I think that it's really refreshing. It's what I like >with guitar playing. What do you think? Indeed! Nice..... This group is from Sweden. They feature two members of a most incredible `70s group called Psynkopat (think Zappa meets Krimson) whose sole album is impossible to find...... (I did finally score one on eBay after a loooong search) It never fails to amaze me how many bands KC has influenced over the years. C ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 12:35:41 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Meadows Subject: SID SMITH'S BOOK HARDBACK FOR SALE Hey e-talkers, I have a extra copy of "In the court of king crimson" for sale. As you know it's signed and I never read this copy, I just checked who signed it and I wrapped it in a comic book bag and taped it. I'll take the best offer for it. thanX, thomas ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1064 *********************************