Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1063 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1063 Saturday, 30 November 2002 Today's Topics: Schizoid Ring-tone 21st Century Schiziod Band cd availabilty in America PG "Up" Tour Re: Dr Who vs KC Improv vs Composed Re: siege mentality UK v US radio ga ga. Something Crimsonesque Belew's guitar Crimson cover A couple of things FFWD KC: the next Abba? LOW FLYING AIRCRAFT CD KC Tour 2003 Re: ET list?/Deja Vroom/"Schizoid Band" cd Merriweather Post Pavi, Columbia, Maryland 1984 show Deja Vroom DVD ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:51:07 -0000 From: "Russell Whitworth" Subject: Schizoid Ring-tone A product of too many boring nights in hotel rooms away from home... the Schizoid Ring-Tone for Nokia phones can now be downloaded from: http://russell.whitworth.com/ring.htm If you don't have a Nokia phone, you can at least listen to the MP3 (not as good as the phone version, though). Please let me know if you like it! -- Russell Whitworth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:22:26 -0800 (PST) From: ProgNaut at webtv dot net (Ron Fuchs) Subject: 21st Century Schiziod Band cd availabilty in America Where can I purchase this CD? Best Regards, Ron Fuchs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:47:00 EST From: EBotti at aol dot com Subject: PG "Up" Tour I recently had the pleasure of seeing Peter Gabriel (Cleveland, Ohio Nov. 19) live. All I can say is that Peter is still the best. His show was replete with visual stimulation, accenting perfect harmony and power, supported by Tony Levin's incomparable Bass playing. Peter seems to have a rare gift. His voice filled the arena like none I have ever heard. I have been a fan of his for a very long time, However, I had not seen him live before. This was truly the best show I have ever seen. I would imagine that when he was a little younger his shows may have been even better. It's hard to imagine, but it only makes sense. Does anyone out there remember seeing him perform in the 70's? I was unfortunately a little to young to see him with Genesis. My first Genesis concert was the "And than there was three" tour in 79'. Pretty good if I remember correctly, but Phil C. has always had a little problem singing Peters Songs. To this day, I still say that if Peter would have stayed a little longer "Trick of the Tail" and "Duke" would have been classics. Any recollections to share with me would be greatly appreciated. Ed New Jersey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:15:12 -0500 From: J A Sontag Subject: Re: Dr Who vs KC Quote: "By the mid-nineties [Dr. Who] had become a primarily North American production, a far cry from its quintessentially European roots." Reply: "When exactly did Dr Who OR King Crimson become a 'primarily North American production'?" By the late 80's - early 90's, due to endless PBS reruns going all the way back to the beginning of the series, Dr. Who had, from everything I have read (and I'm wrong, correct me), a bigger, and more enthusiastic audience in the US than in Britain, and the producers were hoping on American popularity to keep it going. Sort of the way Monty Python eventually reached far more viewers in the US than it ever had in Britain. Whether this influenced the last few years of the show or not I don't know, but I don't think there's much doubt that, whether or not a primarily North American production, it was being produced for primarily a North American audience. As far as KC - I don't know that it is really a North American band, even though 3 of the 4 are American and seem to have a major influence on the current music (after, the 1 who is English is a fairly important member). The metal in the music could have come from anywhere - English and American metal have crossed seamlessly back and forth across the pond for decades - but then you can go all the back to 21CSM and make a good argument that it is essentially a heavy-metal piece. In KC, the metal was there before the term was widely used. The lighter material, though, I think is not really American; even Ade's 'pop tunes' are, to me, clearly descendants of the Beatles, not the Beach Boys. And the oriental-flavored items, such as on HTBHWWYHTBHW, would find many more counterparts among European than American releases. I still see KC as essentially an English band, with a fair amount of European sensibility - but not American. P. S. I'm American, so I would love to "claim" KC - but I can't. :) Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:36:15 -0500 From: J A Sontag Subject: Improv vs Composed Concerning this thread: I don't know if the titles are the way they are to denote a difference; we might be reading a little too deeply here, considering the off-the-wall nature of most of the titles of the apparent improvs. There is a phenomenon, however, that frequently occurs with improvs/jams: if the band feels they really did something good, they try to replicate it, with the result that the improv/jam becomes as consistently structured as though it were "composed" from the start. The notes played in a given 16-bar section may vary, but the section always lasts the same 16 bars, is always in the same key, with the same chord changes, and always has the same mood/tone. In time, the lead solo may turn into a "written" melody. As a musician myself, I have experienced it; and it is clearly evident in other bands as well if you have the live performances to listen to. An excellent non-KC example of this is pre - DSOTM Pink Floyd. In KC, one of the best examples is "The Sheltering Sky", which, according to the band, was an improvised piece caught on tape, which they liked so much they turned it into a "composition" by playing the tape back and learning it from that performance. I don't really see the same kind of thing in the '73-'74 band; many of the improvs had similarities, and an occasional riff pops out that you know will get used in a later song, but I don't hear a repeated specific improv that mutates into a consistent piece. On the other hand, the current line-up has the perfect example of what I am talking about - The Deception Of The Thrush. So unless you see the same title twice, I wouldn't take it seriously. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:59:00 +0000 From: "Spear man" Subject: Re: siege mentality > One would hope that such Siege Mentality isn't woven THAT deep into the > psyche here in the UK. hmm, yer short memory of history is troubling--methinks the british empire was around considerably longer than the 13 original colonies on this side of the pond, so exactly who ingrained whom with 'siege mentality'? sheesh --spearman np the doors 7/21/69 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:41:22 -0000 From: "Wafo" Subject: UK v US Hello In ET1061, SP Goodman writes: >When exactly did Dr Who OR King Crimson become a "primarily North American >production"? Just having an American or three onboard doesn't in itself >make such a thing so, unless perhaps one thinks that a "British production" >must be 100% British. One would hope that such Siege Mentality isn't woven >THAT deep into the psyche here in the UK. Or perhaps THAT'S why it's so >difficult for an American to get work here, eh? Apologies - no xenophobic connotations intended. I was in fact trying to draw some "sign of the times" parallels between two disparate enterprises where probably very few exist, and this was a tenuous one at that. But to make a few more barks in favour of my argument, there was a British-Canadian production of Dr Who made in 1995/6 which, though made under the auspices of the BBC, was made by a mainly Canadian crew, a Canadian/US cast, was set in San Francisco, aired first of all on Fox, and in terms of story, characterisation and style, appeared to owe more to Spielberg, the X Files and Disney than it did to Doctor Who itself. For a show which had always been marked as "quintessentially British" (for that, read: hammy acting, Shakespearian plotlines, cheap SFX, dodgy sets, continual injections of pantomime and music hall, and a universe populated by polite people with plummy BBC accents), this was quite a leap. Admittedly, it didn't last long or go anywhere after the one episode, and the franchise has continued through British companies in the form of books and CDs since, but it did happen. Once. With American money. In the case of King Crimson, however, (and this seems to be the main thing you object to) I think the case for saying it has become mainly a North American enterprise is stronger. I'm not just talking about the number of Americans in the band (2/3 in 1994, 75% of the band since 1999), though that in itself is quite a strong indication, and Fripp/the Vicar brought it up himself/themselves in his/their diaries not so long since - (re the latest Krim recordings):"My early glimpses of these suggest that the presence of three Americans and an American producer have finally swung the balance of power, and this has become a very different, less European, beast." (4th Sept, 2002) OK, so when we think about DGM, it's a small, mobile, intelligent comapny as we all know, and so shouldn't really be based anywhere. And DGM World Central is not based in America. But when I order discs from DGM, they are sent from the US and the price is calculated in dollars. Not only that, but some of its wider release stuff seems to get released in the US first as well - the Happy EP by a whole month. I still haven't seen USA (the CD, not the place) in any shops in London. To take the idea back in time to 1994, and to find an indication in the music itself, why not compare, say, the lyrics of Pictures of a City with those of Cage - which are both more or less about the same thing. In Pictures, the city (New York) seems to be described from an outsider's perspective. But in Cage, for the first time, the singer (the mouthpiece of King Crimson) actually says he lives in the USA, and speaks to the listener as though he does as well. Another clue. Add to this the fact that most of King Crimson's rehearsals and recording sessions since 1994 have been in the US, and - the most important for me - that, unless they're doing a world tour, they only ever play in the States. It all sounds like an American band to me. I don't think I've got a siege mentality - I don't feel under threat because King Crimson has three American guys in it. I just don't see where that comes into it. I didn't say anything about it being a bad thing that Crimso is more America-based than it used to be. The double trio and double duo are my favourite Crim line-ups by far. Not so, however, with the Americanised Dr Who, which (imo) was awful. But not because of anything to do with Canada or the US. Apart from that, you're right - a pretty flimsy argument I was using to make some pointless parallels between two things I like. As for it being difficult for an American to get work in the UK - I think it's very difficult for anyone to find any meaningful, enjoyable work here, wherever you come from. And if you do, you're probably not paid well enough for it - the current 8-day firefighter strike is testament to that. Wafo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:42:24 -0500 From: "Steven Paul Rewa B.S." Subject: radio ga ga. I've been interested reading in the last two issues, the lists of radio friendly tracks and talk about if the radio will or will not play KC. I'm not going to make my own list, but I would like to mention this: Although I haven't been listening to the radio long since I'm only 23 and then I only listen to classic rock stations, I've only heard Crimson once. Of all the songs you might expect it to have been, it happened to be "I talk to the Wind," which I heard late this past summer. Anon, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:44:07 +0100 From: "Dan Jonsson" Subject: Something Crimsonesque This I found the other day. A new band playing Crimson like music. They are called Tow Truck Two. http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/330/tow_truck_two.html It's on mp3.com and I think that it's really refreshing. It's what I like with guitar playing. What do you think? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:49:43 +0300 From: "Turusinov, Andrei S." Subject: Belew's guitar Hi, everybody! Two weeks ago (November 14) on VH1 I watched David Bowie Beat Club performance back from 1979 or 1980. This performance was with Adrian Belew on the guitar. I never saw this show before in a complete 45 min version except for one song. My question is about Mr.Belew's guitar - the instrument looked like it was burnt the other day, and when I saw it I recalled that some time ago I read about the fact that Frank Zappa purchased a burnt Jimi Hendrix' guitar at an auction and renewed it so that it could play. Maybe Zappa lent it to Adrian for some time? Does anybody know anything about it? cheers Andrei ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:34:20 -0500 From: "Robert Bennett" Subject: Crimson cover Hello all: I recently purchased the Doves, "The Last Broadcast" cd (for those not familiar with the Doves, they are a very interesting band - similar to Radio Head). The Doves have a song called "M62 Song", which is an adaptation of "Moonchild". Very interesting working of the basic melody. Yet another group of young British musicians influenced by Crimson! Check it out. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:03:38 -0500 From: jimab at rogers dot com Subject: A couple of things Greetings all, I've noticed a number of posts in the last little while mentioning early versions or snippets of what would later become full-blown KC songs or tunes. One that, surprising to me, hasn't been mentioned yet is Fripp's guitar noodling at the end of Groon from the Detroit KCCC disc. Quite evident is a nascent version of the opening section to "The Night Watch." I wonder what it would've sounded like had that band developed the tune further. Another thing is that I recently had occasion to play some tracks from the Ruins CD "Hatoba" on my radio programe and was rather surprised to hear a healthy dose of LTiA pt. II in the opening track, "Gom Devil." Does Bobby know about this?? James Bailey A Missing Sense / Electric Storm CKLN-FM 88.1 http://www.ckln.fm/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:34:01 -0500 From: David Gargano Subject: FFWD One CD I have never been able to find is 'FFWD' Can anyone help me track down a copy? Thanks, David Gargano Account Executive All Service Computer Rental, Inc. (800) 927-6555 david_gargano at ascr dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:50:20 -0500 From: "Ling & Emory" Subject: KC: the next Abba? It was written... "I think that if they continue on the path they're on, they may gain some popularity--but I don't see that "breaking them through" to the big time" Fripp has spoken a lot about the consequences of King Crimson being "popular", and indeed, in the 80s it seemed like they were just about to become just that before they broke up. I'd say it was Fripp who said the following, but actually it's probably just me: Basically, I don't think King Crimson needs the kind of popularity that, say, the Rolling Stones have, as it would damage the music (this was starting to happen in the 80s). The big audiences I think can only hear a "show", not hear music (though I swear at the Tool 'show' my brothers dragged me to I saw Madison Square Garden filled with people who were listening...) Meanwhile, I think Crimson may be in the process of becomming "popular" in a way that may allow them to continue what they do best. With Tool, Les Claypool, and others givin' them plenty-o-props, those audiences (I think/hope) will understand that Crimson is still a "new" band in the way that they continue to develop music. If Crimson is seen as being "similar, but different" to bands like Tool, Korn, Les Claypool, even Soundgarden, perhaps Crimson can thrive despite popularity this time. -Emory PS: Anyone catch the little Japanese interview? I swear Fripp seemed downright Japanese in his answers. Perhaps some aspects of Japanese culture are a more fitting setting for the type of Interview Fripp can give. And frankly, I really miss the ole' bird's online diaries. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:24:31 -0600 From: Craig Subject: LOW FLYING AIRCRAFT CD Here`s the rare, OOP CD by LOW FLYING AIRCRAFT w/ DAVID CROSS, & KEITH TIPPETT, etc........... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=925911157 Thanks, ~C ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:21:15 -0000 From: "Alan Gent" Subject: KC Tour 2003 Guys this is my first post and first access to he site so forgive me for any protocol blunders. However, I note that KC are, thankfully, touring and yes, we may get gigs in Europe and therefore, hopefully, UK. If the latter, PLEASE don't forget Manchester. Its a happening place at the moment and we'd love to see you guys up here! First beer's on me! Alan www.alangent.com Phone 07798 571 354 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:41:46 -0800 (PST) From: Steve munari Subject: Re: ET list?/Deja Vroom/"Schizoid Band" cd Hello all & happy hollidays to everyone whom reads this nice little newsletter that provides us Crimheads-or Crimsonites, whatever the proper term that is often used to describe us whom wish to learn all they can about 1 of our favorite bands! If memory serves,(& it often does'nt!)it was late last year when Toby/Dan, both or any combination of the above; provided "us" with a list of people(by country)whom subscribe to this newsletter & the number from each country subscribing? This was/is a great idea! So I was wondering/hoping(Toby/Dan)that I could persuade you to update & do it again? It would then be great to compare the new list to the old one, provided I could locate that issue from last year? Or hope that someone reading this could give me the # of that ET issue, so i'd then find it faster? I just think this is a great idea & would hope to see it done. Ok, this next subject(I can hear the moans & groans already!)will possibly piss some ET'er's off and likely have them thinking,"This arse does'nt really dig KC, or he'd already have this & have written this!" But here I go anyway. Because I have to priortize things I purchase(as I assume 99% of the subscribers do?)and because I was totally underwhelmed by the 2 KC video's released before,("Three of a Perfect Pair" & "The Noise")it was'nt until this week that I received my copy of "Deja Vroom" & was completely blown away, & very much satisfied! My not getting the dvd also had nothing to do with not having a dvd player, as i've had 1 for 4 years now. The KC video's I mentioned were, boring! Ok, disregarding the special features a dvd CAN offer,( as this 1 certainly does!)why in the world did'nt KC (or probably more correctly asked)or Robert allow more camera's onstage for the other 2 video's I mentioned? Certainly the technology was available, as I have a # of other music VHS cassettes from as early as the tape "The Noise" was made, 1982, but basically a single shot from audience perspective. Now before I receive all the flames from those whom will say, "There was more than 1 camera, blah blah blah". sure we got some close-up's and even a few shots from slightly different angles. What i'm talking about, are the exciting views from behind say the drummer, or guitarist(s),or shots from above the performer's. Why not? These camera angles don't cost alot & really make one(at least this one)who's watching feel more of a part of the performance, & feel excited about the entire band members & their performance. I love being able to watch, say Brufords hands whilst he's playing or see Robert or Adrian finger the neck, or bend strings ect. So what i'm hoping for, is 1)we'll get more dvd's from the band's performances since the dbl trio & 2)that anything that was filmed/videotaped from before 1998 was done so using the multiple angles I mentioned above and lastly,3)that these dvd's- VHS tapes will be released! Soon. Hopefully someone reading this, will be able to respond to me personally, or give the answer in the newsletter, of: How many "Deja Vroom" units were sold thus far? So I/we will be able to determine if we can expect more? Was the dvd successful? What countries purchased the most? I just want to know if I should be hopeful that more dvd's of performances of the band i've been listening to & buying stuff from for 33 years,(& is the only band i'd drive hundreds to miles to see...well maybe Planet X & a coupla' more also qualify)will make it to the masses? Last topic. Since I was fortunate enough to have a good friend(my mate)attend several of the "21st Century Schizoid Band's" performances, & send me the cd & shirt no more than 5 days after 1 of their gig's, I was able to really enjoy this wonderful music by musicians i've regarded highly for many years. While others(many whom wrote asking where they could obtain the cd or have me copy it, which I did not)are now finally able to purchase it & hear it for themselves; and thus far i've only read 2 comments I believe in the pages of this newsletter!?? So what about it folks, let's buy this cd & lets hear from you; your opinions of this great great band, in the pages of ET! Please, i'm very interested in hearing alot about the "SB"! Thanks in advance, Steve "Sometime what goes in does'nt come out." FZ "Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny." FZ (I made the mistake & should have given Varese the credit for the last quote I posted a few months back. I own up to it) Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:46:04 -0800 From: Luis c Subject: Merriweather Post Pavi, Columbia, Maryland 1984 show Some Official documents says this show was canceled ,but I have a Tape of the complet show (and one of the best KC shows) since the 86 ,came from USA ,and the guy say the show was real. 1984/06/30 Merriweather Post Pavillion, Columbia, Maryland are any news about this from discipline? luis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:40:22 +1100 From: Brian Polli Subject: Deja Vroom DVD Hi there, Does anyone know whether we will ever see a re-release of the Deja Vroom DVD which has: a) no "flipper" disc b) a menu system that does not require a Masters in Physics to navigate. Thanks Brian Brian Polli bpolli at bigpond dot net dot au ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1063 *********************************