Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1058 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1058 Friday, 15 November 2002 Today's Topics: Re: Bru's playing Tony Levin on Bill Bruford's playing Re: Trey's comment & Belew/Claypool 21st Century Schizoid Band/Mastica Re: Bruford's limitations -- I Advance Bewitched -- I Advanced Bewitched -- Revisited elephant talk Sources for Schizoid Men 'Happy With...'/Doctor Who Claypool's Intruder. Re: KC live alone? GOING IT ALONE Misc from recent issues... GOING TO KC SHOWS ALONE call it what you want... Happy... review online Excitement is where you find it... tPowertBelieve(?)+ade/les, ear breathing room re growing into GONG Re: Bill Bruford / Happy EP/ Expectations/ HC video. Basement Dweller T-Shirts Re: cobain and kc? More about Ladies, starting with a correction... Re: test runs ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:09:35 EST From: Danshowe777 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Bru's playing Having been a Bru fan for over 30 years and a musician that can appreciate someone who can count!...I think his playing is anything but boring. Many people fail to discriminate between "accurate" and "grooved". When Bill plays a tempo you can time it with a metronome and he's stupid accurate! Side two of Cirkus should put the boring idea to bed. I've always loved his "off" drumming and wish I could find a skin man who plays like that. The demise of UK related to this issue. I remember reading that Eddie Jobson wanted Holdsworth to play the same solos every night and Bill thought that was ridiculous! I could flame on about Collins but that's another story. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:55:12 -0800 From: "Erwin Bush" Subject: Tony Levin on Bill Bruford's playing A few years ago when Tony Levin was touring in support of "Waters of Eden" he made an appearance at a music store in San Jose which I went to. During the Q & A period someone in the audience asked him "Who is the most challenging drummer you've ever played with?" He said "If you mean challenging in a good way then it's Bill Bruford; he never plays anything the same way once." He then added, as many here have noted, that Bill played around the beat; as a result Tony couldn't use him to provide the beat and had to provide his own. So that's what Mr. Levin thinks of Mr. Bruford's playing... and he's played with him a bit. Erwin erwin at erwinbush dot com Almost at http://www.erwinbush.com "Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and goes through their pockets." -- Eddy Peters ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:25:50 -0500 From: Brian Preston Subject: Re: Trey's comment & Belew/Claypool Gents- >Subject: Trey Gunn's latest news >On his Web site's Latest News page, in the middle of abjectly apologizing >for the delay in the dispatch of the Road Journals CDs, Trey interjects: "Fripp has said to me that this is possibility the most definitive King Crimson recording since 1981." >Take that for what it's worth. :) >rone I would say that is indeed a sad statement. Although I've only heard 'Happy...' (not tPtB of course) it seems the fellers have run a bit slim on ideas. I like several parts quite a bit and perhaps they have developed a lot more meat to make the full album more 'definitive' than Happy is as an EP. One can only hope. (I like the improv collage at the end the best) Being a Crim fan since before Discipline - I can still feel the excitement felt in being absorbed in that truly remarkable, genre-setting release in 1981. I got a bit of that with Thrak and infact traveled thousands of miles to see the double trio at the Warfield in SF, 3 shows, June 1995. I dont feel that way about Happy. And since KC has never played in North Carolina, I doubt I'll see this tour. I do want to make a brief mention of some news I recently was told by Les Claypool's manager in SF (a long time friend of SG et al)- Adrian has agreed to do tracks on Les' new album (I guess one of those Frog Brigade deals) and I think is heading out pretty soon to do that. (Cant forward the personal e mail since I dont have permission) - That could be a fun collaberation. Im not a huge fan of Claypool (give me Percy Jones any day) but Belew did come and play for us here in Chapel Hill a few years ago on his solo tour deal and he was very good and nice - and I would much rather hear Adrian sing than Les (sorry dude.) tata for now. -6 string fretless is the only way to fly- ************************************************************************* Brian Preston/Metaphoric Music Productions Smokin'Granny http://meta4ik.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/smokingranny2 (sound files) Krimson News Radio http://www.live365.com/stations/crim75 (SG in rotation) Onomata http://www.umbrellarecordings.com/feature.html Groove Stream Attractor http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue20/groove01.html ******** ******** ******** ******** "When people are coupled together through musicking, each steers his or her own raft of subjectivity into the collective sea of neurodynamics." William Benzon in 'Beethoven's Anvil: Music in Mind & Culture' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:35:39 +0100 From: Tim Bowness Subject: 21st Century Schizoid Band/Mastica Now available from the 'shop' section of www.burningshed.com: 21st century schizoid band - official bootleg (cd) Previously only available at the band's shows in the UK and Japan, the Official Bootleg CD features 7 songs from the bands current live set and was recorded 'as live' at Mark Angelo studio's in West London 2 days prior to the group's debut performance at the Canterbury Fayre Festival at the en of August this year. #12.00 inclusive of p&p UK mastica - masticattack (cd) A stunning collection of improvs from Mastica, featuring King Crimson's Pat Mastelletto on drums and production. A brutally different but wholly worthy follow-up to the groundbreaking Mastica 99. #11.00 inclusive of p&p UK Now available from the 't-shirt' section of www.burningshed.com: 21st century schizoid band - t-shirt (extra large) Extra large tshirt featuring the CD cover on the front and tour dates on the back. #14.00 inclusive of p&p UK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:55:52 -0200 From: "Adrian Cagnani" Subject: Re: Bruford's limitations Sorry, but I must say this: Bruford has NO limitations. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 05:34:28 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: -- I Advance Bewitched -- I've noticed on DGM, under the Shop heading "Andy Summers/Robert Fripp", it reads "There are currently no products in this category". I was just thinking, aren't "I Advance Masked" and "Bewitched" the sum total of the collaboration? Don't these two albums fit wonderfully on 1 CD (38:43 + 39:52)? How's about a famous RF remastering with a gatefold reproduction of the two original non-gatefold sleeves (front covers on front and back, back covers in middle, book in one end, CD in the other [sticker on shrink wrap with an explanation!])? I would definitely buy this, but I'm not sure I'd buy them individually (I already have them on vinyl). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 05:48:41 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: I Advanced Bewitched -- Revisited Hey! You may have recently read a post from me regarding the two AS/RF albums being ideally put on one CD? Well I was listening to "I Advance Masked" while I was writing it. I've just put on "Bewitched", right after IAM ended, and...well...maybe all the extra space on the CD ought to be put between the two! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:06:20 -0700 From: "amelia ray" Subject: elephant talk has anyone heard of the band elephant talk? they are from england, i believe. i ran across one of their discs at a friend's house a couple of weeks ago. perhaps a little crimson influence. mostly sounds like nice arabic music with a little rock and some al dimeola... amelia http://www.ameliaray.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:11:32 EST From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Sources for Schizoid Men In comparing the "Schizoid Men" solos from _Ladies Of The Road_ to previously released performances by this band, as well as a couple of unreleased versions from my collection, I was able to place only three of the tracks: Track 1 (the song itself) and Track 2 are from Jacksonville, and Track 5 is from Wilmington (the _Earthbound_ version). So it would seem that, unlike the first disc of the set, this disc consists primarily of unreleased performances. (Yay!) Can anyone out there identify the remaining solos? And while on the subject of "Schizoid Men": why, after going to all the trouble to make the first 10 tracks sound like a seamless, extended performence of the song, did Fripp, Singleton, the Vicar, or whoever, insist on botching things up at the end with abrupt cutoffs and a one-minute gap? It's unfortunate that _Ladies Of The Road_ does not include a live version of the rarely performed "Islands," which exists on collectors' tapes, but has yet to be officially documented. I hope it will show up on a future KCCC release. Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:18:16 -0000 From: Sandy Starr Subject: 'Happy With...'/Doctor Who So I finally bought the new 'Happy With...' EP, and I really, really like it. The title track is fantastic. The lyrics are hilarious, and the chorus (the proper chorus, not the 'We're going to have to have a chorus' pre-chorus) is clearly adapted from one of the passages in Larks Tongues IV. What I find most impressive about the song is something that other ETers have been criticising, namely Machine's chunky metal production. People seem to be assuming that KC are somehow 'dumbing down' by opting for this style of production, but that's a ridiculous idea. There are some fantastic production methods used in heavy metal these days, it's just that the use that these methods are put to is sometimes suspect - the production can (sometimes, by no means always) be used to compensate for a paucity of musical ability or musical ideas. But KC have no shortage of musical ideas, and this kind of production fits their current playing style like a glove, giving it a new dimension. I can't wait to get 'The Power to Believe', and hear how Machine's production stands up over the course of a whole album. The closest thing I can compare this meeting of minds to is the Motorhead album 'Orgasmatron', which was produced by multi-talented jazz/fusion/rocker Bill Laswell. Laswell took Motorhead's straightforward thrashing and made it a thing of industrial elegance. In the case of KC and Machine, I think the opposite might happen - elegant thrashing will be given a straightforwardly industrial edge. Don't get me wrong, I like 'The ConstruKction of Light'. I just think that with its uncompromisingly tight production and its ruthlessly exclusive use of V-drums, 'The ConstruKction of Light' was a necessary stepping stone towards the Crimson we're now hearing. Sometimes, if you put on a straitjacket, you find something new in yourself when you take the straitjacket off again. Fripp seems acutely aware of the merits of self-imposed limitation, which is why he 'denies himself' certain aspects of his musical vocabulary at different points in his career, why he once asked Bruford to refrain from using cymbals, etc. It's this kind of concious approach towards creating the conditions for innovation that has kept KC fresh over the years. As for the version of Larks Tongues IV on 'Happy With...', it's brilliant. I henceforth consider this the definitive recorded version of the piece, until another contender comes along. And no disrespect to the wonderful Belew, but I think the coda sounds sooo much better without vocals. On a different subject, I've been pleasantly surprised by the recent posts drawing connections between KC and Doctor Who. I'm something of a Doctor Who fanatic, having once edited a Doctor Who fanzine, and having an uncle who used to work on the show as a production manager. I too love the weird and wonderful sounds of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop, and I think it's a tragedy that the Workshop no longer exists. I don't know what it is that attracts people to KC and Doctor Who in tandem, but I do know that Sid Smith is a big Doctor Who fan as well. I wonder... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:49:29 -0600 From: alberto carrasco Subject: Claypool's Intruder. Robert Rucker wrote: >Moving on: Claypool's Brigade played "Intruder," huh? That must >have been awesome. Are there any recordings of this performance >(yet)? :-) You can find the Primus recording of "Intruder" on their EP: Miscellaneous Debris which also has a cover of Pink Floyd's "Have a Cigar". Neither live up to the originals but are rather interesting artifacts. Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:17:54 +0000 From: "Spear man" Subject: Re: KC live alone? > From: "Dave Allen" > I'm thinking I may go to the next KC concert that rolls around ALONE, with, without, doesn't matter as long as you're there for the tunes, but if your friends like to talk during all your favorite parts or walk thru the aisles bumping into everyone while getting drinks/going for a smoke.... go ALONE --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:11:56 -0500 From: "philip m. quirk" Subject: GOING IT ALONE To the posters who were considering going to a KC concert alone: if you happen to go to a concert in New York City, drop me a line and maybe we could hang out and go to a KC concert. I must warn you however, that I am a geezer who came to KC in the early eighties and I cannot quote chapter & verse of every recording KC ever made.I do like Happy... P.S. Kudos to the poster who mentioned Personae by Jonas Hellborg-it's very good and I would venture to say that many Krimheads will like it also. P.S. 2 Can anyone recommend one or two Soft Machine discs that represent their best work? "Nobody goes there anymore-it's too crowded" Yogi Berra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:21:29 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Clayton Subject: Misc from recent issues... Comments on 3 items - 1. Pat's drum sound - Most accoplished musicians will tell you most of the sound of thier instrument comes from the player, not the instrument. Pat's sound will never be close to Bill's, they play COMPLETELY differently. This is why THRAAK worked so well, thier differences complemented each other. Aside from musical subleties involved, Pat plays hard and loud, Bill is much quieter and dynamic (more highs and lows). Alan White plays a lot like Pat, and when he plays Bruford's parts on Yes tunes, thay sound totally different. I am a drummer , and two Bruford parts were especially difficult to figure out until I tried to play softer - then they flowed nicely .(Heart of the Sunrise intro, Close to the Edge on the part when the band comes back in. BTW< I finally figured out how to play what sounds extremely difficult! All he's doing in 16th notes between the Hi- Hat and snare with HH accents!>). Anyway, Pat will always sound like Pat, no matter what his drums and sound are treated ! with. 2.Dream Theater - What's wrong with Dream Theater? Can people explain why they don't like them? I have heard mostly negatives about them and I don't understand. The musicianship is excellent, the tunes are melodic yet challenging, the singer actually SINGS! I got a used copy of "Awake" and really got into this band. I have listened to Tool, but I guess mostly the singing turns me off, but the tunes have no melody! Even LTIA2 has a melody line. I know it all comes down to personal taste, but I'll have to give DT thumbs up and Tool Thumbs down! DISCUSS!! 3. I don't know why there is so much debate over whether Schizoid Band is KC , is NOT KC, whatever! They play music we dig, and they play it well. There is no debate that the various lineups of KC have sounded drastically different. You'd have a hard time convincing a KC novice that Moonchild and Indicipline are by the same band! We should all enjoy that , basically, there are TWO Crimsos out there instead of one. And if BB, JW and DC get a Fripp-alike and go on the road there could be 3!They could be the Red Lark's Tongues in Starless Aspic!(Say that 3 times fast!) Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:58:51 -0500 From: "CMC CD-R DUPLICATION" Subject: GOING TO KC SHOWS ALONE In response to Dave Allen's post in ET 1056: >>I'm thinking I may go to the next KC concert that rolls around ALONE, seeing as I know no one who shares the same level of enthusiasm for the band that I do. Anyone else had this same experience? Is going to a KC show alone better than going with someone who only thinks they're amusing you?>> Dave, I've been doing that since 1975! Whether it be for KC, Fripp Soundscapes, or even BLUE, I gave up looong ago trying to find someone who would dig it as much as I do. I think it is better NOT having to deal with another person's comments about the music, personnel, etc.. It would bum me out big time to have someone sitting next to me, squirming in his/her seat all night, not being able to understand this type of music as we do. I discovered that I can better concentrate on and enjoy the show without having the distraction of a less enthused partner. Not that I haven't tried! A couple of years ago I was the drummer in a band (at 42 years old, 6 years older than the others); it was mostly a fun/hobby thing to do. I tried on many occasions to introduce some KC material to the other members, and the looks of confusion and horror were actually quite funny. But no one had the courage to experiment. Overall, I think it is almost like a badge of honor to be part of a unique group of individuals who are so into and care so much about King Crimson. I take great joy in telling people that KC is my all-time fave group; they'll reply "Oh yeah! Didn't they do 'ITCOTCK?'" When I tell them that they still exist today, but play music very different than what they're used to hearing, they give me the "stay away from me, you freak!" look and change the subject. So, go it alone and enjoy, knowing that you really aren't as alone as you might think! RRR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:46:40 -0600 From: "Jonathon Smith" Subject: call it what you want... I suppose this is a small advertisement, but I'll say no more after this. I just started a new fanzine, and I've got an essay on King Crimson up. Check it out... http://j.students.umkc.edu/jhs199/ Jonathon "God works in a mysterious way-- The Church can sleep and feed at once." --T.S. Eliot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:06:16 -0600 From: "SteveM" Subject: Happy... review online For anyone who's interested, we have a review for the new EP online at The Night Owl. Check it out if you can.. Steve Steve Marshall Editor - The Night Owl stevem at thenightowl dot com The best place on the web for music reviews Member - National Music Critics Association ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:15:11 -0600 From: Albert Oller Subject: Excitement is where you find it... >From ET #1057 >> A similar comparison would be between Jimi Hendrix and Robert Fripp (duller and more obsessive, but i prefer him). Well, I don't want to see an endless and pointless bicker over Hendrix vs. Fripp erupt in ET, so I'll leave Hendrix and his music out of it. I find Robert Fripp's guitar playing and associated music to be just about the most fascinating, exciting, life affirming, heavenly, erotic and explosive human expression I've ever encountered anywhere from anytime in any medium. I just can't comprehend the adjective "duller" when used in a sentence to describe Fripp's musicking. "more obsessive" I might agree with. After all, Robert Fripp has been plying his craft for over 30 years. I wonder if he ever slept with his guitar? Stay well, ago ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:30:26 -0500 From: Brian Preston Subject: tPowertBelieve(?)+ade/les, ear breathing room Hello Crimmy's, Seems that my last post was zapped by the 'powers' that be (maybe not but I never saw it come through the pipe.) [ No Brian, it was not zapped. I have no record of a recent previous post from you. --Toby ] That one contained some 'minimal' discouragement in the direction with Happy yaddada in relation to some post about Trey having said that Bob F had said that Happy was perhaps a 'definitive KC recording' or some such. I compared the exhiliration of the 81's Discipline which turned 'progressive' music on it's collective arse to the non-thrill for me of this new EP and expressed my hopes that tPtB will change that opinion for myself. I also mentioned that I know that Adrian is planning to do a recording with Les Claypool coming soon (apparently tPtB is all finished,eh?) and that I was hoping that Ade would be singing as well as guitaring as I really dont care to hear Les try to sing any more. So, I suppose any of those inpolitiK posts could be enough to get zapped by the Tobster - but I probably just didnt see it so excuse any repetition here. Now my take on this post: "I do wish they decided to call the new album "EleKtriK" as opposed to "The Power to Believe". The latter title sounds very much like some sort of motivational self-help tape exercise, or a Christian pamphlet title." My sincere hope in this title is that the 'Obvious' interpretation is no where close to what the fellers have in mind and that, it is, in fact, a tongue in cheek statement emphasizing the dangers of believing any of the various assorted metaphysical garbages which are rampant in current human society - seemingly excellerated by the 'events' of the recent past. Judging by the 'scarey gas mask' images on the proposed - and probably now in line for manufacturing - cover, I'd say it's either the dismal reality drenched shock effect point (not unlike ItCotCK) or... well I'll stick with that. BTW, does anyone else think the recording on Lark'sTongueIV on Happy yaddada is really pushed too far into the slightly distorted range and is too ear fatiguing?? When will engineers let up some and give us back the warm tones of saturated analogue tape with room to breath???? OK - I'm done. np: Onomata session 11/3/02 ************************************************************************* Brian Preston/Metaphoric Music Productions Smokin'Granny http://meta4ik.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/smokingranny2 (sound files) Krimson News Radio http://www.live365.com/stations/crim75 (SG in rotation) Onomata http://www.umbrellarecordings.com/feature.html Groove Stream Attractor http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue20/groove01.html ******** ******** ******** ******** "When people are coupled together through musicking, each steers his or her own raft of subjectivity into the collective sea of neurodynamics." William Benzon in 'Beethoven's Anvil: Music in Mind & Culture' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:38:33 +0000 From: "Spear man" Subject: re growing into GONG >Give the man time to grow into Gong material, hell everyone needs time for >that... I had to laugh with the writer on this one--I've been trying to get some friends into gong via their two DVDs--typical reactions: classic rock legends DVD: 1) how'd you get into these guys again? 2) let's not show this to our children. the subterania gig DVD: 3) oh no not another gong video --spearman np 5 mar 1979 the police UCDavis coffeehouse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:22:45 -0800 (PST) From: Rainbow Sky Subject: Re: Bill Bruford / Happy EP/ Expectations/ HC video. "lawrence moseley" wrote: > He was obviously better off with KC who improvised far more and allowed BB > to express his art form in the way he preferred. Ultimately not the way RF > preferred which is where their differences (still?) lie. I agree that Bruford is best suited to an environment where his improvisation isn't going to sabotage the composition for the rest of the musicians. I've been guilty of this myself. Some musicians delight in this expressiveness. But your use of the word 'ultimately' makes me think. I see KC as a process or a journey. Bruford was "good enough" for Fripp for decades. And Bruford committed himself to the project for that time -- I would say because of the level of artistic integrity and opportunity. The band may reincarnate around Fripp, but I don't think he is looking for a definitive lineup to produce a definitive sound. In other words, Bruford is not in KC now because they are doing something they cannot do with him, master percussionist or not. *grins* Feel free to correct any mistaken assumptions. Cheers, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:41:48 +0100 From: shiggins at avio-diepen dot com Subject: Basement Dweller T-Shirts As many of you know DGM mail order has discontinued the "Basement Dweller" T-Shirts. I and a few friends missed out on buying one of these definitive items and would still very much like to have one. I have made an inquiry to DGM and Bill said that for a new run to be cost effective they would need firm orders for 30 or more shirts. I can drum up at least 15 interested parties but that's obviously not enough. If anyone would like a second chance to buy one of these enormously historic articles of clothing please let me know (as well as desired size). I'm sure with all of us out there we can meet or exceed DGM's minimum order requirements. Even if you already bought one you should buy another to have a spare when you wear out your first one! Kind Regards, Sean Higgins Contact: bingchudie at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:45:18 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: cobain and kc? >Does not include KC's "Red" which has been cited as Cobain's favourite >album of all time. However, it does contain, amongst the expected Stooges >and Black Flags, "Get the Knack' by the Knack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you serious!?!? When did he say that? Ive always wondered, just because im a crimhead and thats what we do, if Cobain liked KC. See, after reading a very small portion of his journal at Borders the other day (i dont know if i'd feel right buying it.... hmm) one of his entries was something entitled "why I hate prog-rock" or something like that, to the same affect. And being a huge punk fan, the antithesis of prog-rock I just figured that he didn't care for KC no matter how NOT typical 'prog-rock' I consider them to be. But if he did like them, I'd be interested in reading what he said. Also about that list of 50 best albums.. he was a very strange man. While being very musically eclectic, at the same time he seemed to have been very narrow-minded as well, at least when it comes to his all time favorite records. And I thought it was interesting that he named Meet The Beatles on there over other Beatles albums. I know he is a big fan of theirs, he even compared on of his songs "opinion" to "taxman" (well, he said they sound similar).. so I would have though he would cherish an album more representitive of their brilliance like Revolver or Abbey Road or something. Oh well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:48:03 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" Subject: More about Ladies, starting with a correction... Let me get this out of the way first... in my initial post about 'Ladies' I complained that "The Letters" was included instead of something more worthy, possibly including the "Lady of the Dancing Water"/"Cadence and Cascade" medley. Much to my chagrin, I later realized that the medley was in fact released on KCCC 14, from the Plymouth Guildhall. My bad. Still would have preferred "Islands," though. I must say, however, that the decision to omit a listing of where and when each track from 'Ladies' hails strikes me as an extremely regrettable omission, especially in light of the fact that this is the first appearance of anything from the Zoom Club play-in shows. Given the meticulous documentation of 'The Great Deceiver' and 'Epitaph,' this really does make it seem (though I'm quite likely reading too much into it) that Fripp remains unconvinced by this particular band's merits. I'd been planning to sit down with my discs to try to determine the provenance of each track in as much as that's possible, but I see that Dan beat me to it and seems to have done an exemplary job: >8'46 Pictures of a City (from Live at Summit Studios) Sounds right. >4'43 The Letters (from Live at Plymouth) Yes - if Sinfield's weird panning of the saxophone solo wasn't evidence enough, Boz's memory lapse in the lyrics is identical, as is the silly coda. >6'42 Formentera Lady (abridged) (from Live in Detroit) Yes. Personally, I find the cuts artfully executed but musically rather jarring. >5'43 The Sailors Tale (Unknown origin) The cut from one performance's segue to another performance caught my ear, too, though I didn't put the pieces together until you said so. It's no version I've ever heard, but it's killer. >7'58 Cirkus (from Live in Detroit) Yes, the intros are identical, right down to what sounds like a "ping" on the recordist's microphone. But you didn't mention that the entire second verse has been cut out! It cuts straight from the opening verse to the third. And this particular abridgement goes unnoted on the booklet. >6'52 Groon (from Live at Summit Studios) MOST assuredly. >8'34 Get Thy Bearings (Unknown origin) Right. I assumed that this might be Zoom Club, but we have no way of knowing, do we? >8'58 21st Century Schizoid Man (from Live at Summit Studios) Again, definitely. Boz's phrasing throughout and the odd bass note in the first verse are a dead match. >0'49 In the Court of the Crimson King (from Live in Detroit) Yes, clearly. Damn shame that they couldn't include the entire song, especially for the sake of store browsers who might not be aware of the Collector's Club (not that there are likely to be so many casual browsers who'll latch onto this particular release, I'll grant you). It would be fun to know where all the components of "Schizoid Men" came from, but that's a job for another day. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:49:19 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: test runs >You could also say that the origins of some of TCoL emerged on the road, in >the form of scattered bits and pieces of ProjeKct material. speaking of early material being tested on the road, those of us privledged enough to have KCCC Zoom Club know that among other material being played with then they did a Fallen Angel Improv. But I was listening to Zoom, the first lengthy improv on the disc and for the first time I noticed that parts of it sound an awful like parts of Lament. This is highly plausable, but did anyone else notice that?? ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1058 *********************************