Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1057 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1057 Wednesday, 13 November 2002 Today's Topics: Schizoid Man sighting cRIMSON dOWNUNDER Looking for a ProjeKcts' Fox for christmas? complaints about the song "Happy" Re: ITCOTCK Question Possible Bears show...? Quite happy with happy with BBC Radiophonic Workshop Blood from Eden, for Bruford Re: BB The Drummers responsibility On the road... Ladies of the Road glitches Re: going to shows alone Re: ladies of the road - abridged formentera lady? Re: half assed answer to piano question Re: Ladies Of The Road glitches? - No! gaps crimson humour (or: the song "happy...) Bill Bruford / Happy EP/ Expectations/ HC video. ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:32:03 -0700 From: "Proginoskes" Subject: Schizoid Man sighting One of the local magazines, Java, which reports on art and culture in the Phoenix area, has a regular feature where they take pictures of hot spots and put in captions. This month, they had a picture of a guy with the Schizoid Man on his T-shirt, and the caption was: "Dude, you've got a really ugly face ... on your shirt!" -- Christopher "HeKcman" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:36:40 +1100 From: orlando_jk at optusnet dot com dot au Subject: cRIMSON dOWNUNDER Can Someone please tell me if CK have ever toured Australia? I can't seem to find any records of it happenning and I've heard the cost of touring for the group is very expensive. All this aside I would love to see them live if they ever came here (maybe the happy tour?). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:19:48 -0300 From: "Alejandro" Subject: Looking for a ProjeKcts' Fox for christmas? Hi, I'm Alejandro from Buenos Aires. I've got a ProjeKct's 4cd box and other KC-related cds to sell E-mail me privately. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:57:26 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: complaints about the song "Happy" The "parody" aspect to "Happy" that Adam Bowerman mentions, I feel, is a good point and helps in some ways. And the reminder from "WAFO" that each KC recording has a "potential single" is also good point. But, unfortunately, Krimsonian cuts that are, intended or morphed into, "singles" suffer from not being strong enough pop contestants. They generally seem like they're trying too hard or aren't "hooky" enough. Perhaps "Happy" will be the exception. It is very ready for consumption and I'd crank the car-stereo at rush hour if it came over the airwaves. Listening to Level 5 again recently, I'm looking forward to hearing the studio versions of many of these tracks. David Kirkdorffer UNDO N.P. Frank Sinatra singing the Rogers & Hart songbook. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:44:59 -0600 From: "Chad Roberson" Subject: Re: ITCOTCK Question In issue 1056, rwrkbradley at go dot com was asking about the gatefold edition of ITCOTCK. This was the first proper record by KC that I purchased (my first buy was the Deja Vroom DVD which I bought on a whim last May; I now own 16 records and three box sets! It's become sort of an obsession.). I found it at an independent record store here in Memphis called Shangri-La. It's run by a very nice guy named Jared McStay and I know they ship all over the country (maybe even the world, I'm not sure). But if you, or anyone else would like to contact them they can be reached at http://www.shangri.com Regards, Chad Roberson Memphis, TN USA P.S.-This is my first post and I just want to say thanks for this forum because my poor friends' eyes just glaze over when I start waxing Crimson. Although, I have found the track "Happy..." to be a real jaw-dropper to all my friends who haven't heard them since Discipline first came out! So kudos to the band, especially Robert and Adrian for remaining vital and interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:56:58 -0600 From: "Chad Roberson" Subject: Possible Bears show...? Just a quick note to anyone in the Memphis area. I have it from a very reliable source that the owner of the Hi-Tone here in town is considering booking a Bears show sometime soon but was wondering if eneough people would show up so he could meet their guarantee of $2000.00. If anyone in the vicinity would like to see this happen (like Me!) call or e-mail the Hi-Tone and express your interest! Surely there's enough of us around who would gladly pay $10 or $15 to see Adrian and the boys in a really intimate setting. (I'm sure I'd pay much more than that if it came right down to it) Anyway, just a heads-up to the locals ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:00:22 -0800 From: bernice dot brown1 at attbi dot com Subject: Quite happy with happy with Personally, I couldn't have been more pleased with Crimso's new direction. The one gripe I've had over the years of loving their music is the lack of humor in their music. Now, Adrian significantly changed that, but only slightly. I genuinely laughed very hard the first time I read the lyrics to "Happy With..." and heard Einstien's Relatives. Also, Ade sounds absolutely incredible, joke lyrics or not, on the title track. His voice gets better with age. One more note, I do wish they decided to call the new album "EleKtriK" as opposed to "The Power to Believe". The latter title sounds very much like some sort of motivational self-help tape exercise, or a Christian pamphlet title. Anyhoo, that's all from me. GottaJibbooTwo at attbi dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:36:41 EST From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: BBC Radiophonic Workshop As there has been some mention of the work of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop in recent ET's, readers might like to know that there are a couple of collections on re-release. One is from 1968 and is called "BBC Radiophonic Music" (BBC Music REC25MCD). The other is from 1975 and is called "The Radiophonic Workshop" (BBC Music REC 196CD). Purchasers are advised that there is little or no Dr Who material on either. Incidentally, Kurt Cobain's Journal has just been published. ("Got up, hated myself, had corn flakes for breakfast, despised the hypocritical self-serving snivelling excuse for a human being that I have become, read the wife's film scripts" etc.) It contains a list of Nirvana's Top 50 albums of all time. Does not include KC's "Red" which has been cited as Cobain's favourite album of all time. However, it does contain, amongst the expected Stooges and Black Flags, "Get the Knack' by the Knack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gordy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:00:51 -0800 (PST) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: Blood from Eden, for Bruford Bruford is one of 5 favorite drummers, and i also think that the argument that Bruford is "lazy" is absurd, but I might agree with Mr Eden in some aspects. Bruford is a drum-math genius, he uses all rudiments and knows how to write wonderful music, being a great musician. But let's face it. Muir was right that he is/was a little 'dull'. One has the impression that he has studied everything before playing, that he's somewhat an obsessive-exact drummer (which i love), but not 'loose'. When you compare him to Muir in 72 Crimson, or even with Collins in '76 Genesis (his co-drummers), you hear something else, a 'looser' approach. And it's not that he can't improvise (hell no!), it's just that i've the impression that the reason why he is a great drummer, it's because he has done lots of rehearsal in his life, not because "he has the rythm in his blood". A similar comparison would be between Jimi Hendrix and Robert Fripp (duller and more obsessive, but i prefer him). IMHO, the 'loose' approach in KC 73-74 (after Muir departure) is brought by Wetton (100% talent) even if he's music ideas were more 'pop' oriented. U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:17:23 -0600 From: CRAIG Subject: Re: BB >The suggestion that financial reasons are why Bill is currently doing >Earthworks (his jazz group) instead of playing rock music is unrealistic. >The pay is generally far better for pro rock drummers than pro jazz >drummers -- in fact, I believe BB stated that one of the main reasons he >did the Yes Union tour in 1991 was to finance his jazz project. But more >importantly -- jazz music is his true love, that's why he's doing it. Go >see them play and you'll understand. Precisely. We interviewed BB when his 2nd Earthworks CD came out at the PBS radio station where I worked, & he referred to the group as a "charity organisation". Explaining that his participation in the ABW&H tour was helping finance his own group. (I still have that interview on tape somewhere). ~C PS: For my tastes their first has remained the pinnacle. PPS: I just wish he & Tony Levin would revive B.L.U.E. THAT is some exciting music! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:27:33 -0800 From: "D.C." Subject: The Drummers responsibility From a drummers point of view, it might just lead to difference in opinions if you ask a guitarist or bassist if a drummer should lock in or be in his own world and "Go Off" as they say? All you drummers reading this ask yourself about those times when you played musical chairs with bands over the years and read and fed each of the other players minds to find a groove to synch with or even if you were just playing it safe and listening to find out who is the weakest or strongest link. We all know chemistry is the most important link, however in my experience of rehearsing and auditioning with bands day after day (Zappa's Flakes comes to mind for California) I concentrate mostly on the groove of the Bassist first and foremost. If he is boring I play odd beats and play around him or throw beats at the guitarist or the keyboardist. If the Bassist is proficient and busy then I have a blast. If Bill was in either Gong or National Health for merely a few months maybe he played it safe and felt the band out, for he most definitely moved on to other things in no time at all. Genesis comes to mind because Bruford was refused entry into the band as a full partner and contributor. Genesis surely would not have sold out and made millions like they did with Bill in the band. Do you recall Bruford called them boring when he departed? I do not dispute the recollections of members of N.H. and Gong but it is coming from entirely different points of view. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:31:19 EST From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: On the road... >I'm thinking I may go to the next KC concert that rolls around ALONE, >seeing as I know no one who shares the same level of enthusiasm for the >band that I do. Anyone else had this same experience? Is going to a KC >show alone better than going with someone who only thinks they're amusing >you? I can't really compare, having only been to one Crimson concert (alone). But it wasn't too bad at all. I imagine it might have been a little less fulfilling with an unenthused friend along; I felt more connected with the audients who were into the group than I would have felt with anyone I knew. On a side note: the same event can lead to quite different perspectives. I loved the entire concert and felt utterly captivated by the music. A couple days later I saw the DGM diaries: Trey was frustrated at never feeling connected to the material at all, Pat sulked because he felt really off that night, and Robert got that subtle feeling of violation from the whole thing - validated the next day when he found out they'd been videotaped. Ah well. Speaking of KC road work... >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they've >road-tested an album this way since "Discipline". I think some of the material that ended up on Beat was first tried out on the Discipline tour.. and the Double Trio played some warm-up shows in Argentina before the release of Thrak. Whether this predated the recording as well as the release, I can't say. You could also say that the origins of some of TCoL emerged on the road, in the form of scattered bits and pieces of ProjeKct material. Whatever the case, I look forward to The Power to Believe with an anticipation I rarely feel for anything (except perhaps the new Gordian Knot album). I only hope that if this is the monumentally definitive recording it could turn out to be, Robert won't sit back at the end of the tour and feel that the band has nowhere else to go. Check his diary: "2003 - begins again." I take this as a sign of hope. -g ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:00:22 -0500 From: "Peter Badore" Subject: Ladies of the Road glitches Dan Kirk wrote about the idiosyncracies of his copy. I have the ultimate: NO SECOND DISC!!!!!! Thought you'd get a kick out of this, not to mention a short post from me for a change. Peter Badore P.S. If Bill Bruford IS a rhythm machine, he's a very complex one. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:52:29 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: going to shows alone >I'm thinking I may go to the next KC concert that rolls around ALONE, >seeing as I know no one who shares the same level of enthusiasm for the >band that I do. Anyone else had this same experience? Is going to a KC >show alone better than going with someone who only thinks they're amusing >you? Yea totally. The one time I got to see them I went alone. My friend who introduced me to them stopped updating after THRAK, and he wasn't up for going to a concert so the only person who was into them didnt want to go. I predict that ill probably go alone next time as well, unless the show falls on a date which some of my more open minded friends are home from college. But most of the friends who i've introduced KC too I've given them albums from the 70s, not the recent stuff, or even the 90's stuff. So, we'll see. I personally think a band like KC has to be really appreciated by whoever is experiancing them. I would never drag my girlfriend or a wife to a KC show. I can't enjoy a concert or a cd if I know the person next to me is sitting there judging it negatively. They have to be able to enjoy it like I do, therefor I'd much rather go alone and maybe talk to other fans at the show. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:03:56 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: ladies of the road - abridged formentera lady? 6'42 Formentera Lady (abridged) why is it abridged? to me that is a crime to music. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:02:16 -0500 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: half assed answer to piano question >Hi, all. One question: in the final minutes of "Easy Money", an electric >piano can clearly be heard in the background, yet the liner notes credit >no one with playing keyboards other than the mellotron. So who would that >be? Thanks in advance to anyone with the answer. if you read Sid Smith's book I believe it tells us that there is indeed an uncredited piano part being played at the end.. I'm not sure exactly if it was played by a band member or someone in the studio.. but I'm sure someone else could answer that for you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:48:22 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Re: Ladies Of The Road glitches? - No! In a message dated Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:25:54 EST, DanKirkd at aol dot com writes: > I was wondering if other copies of Ladies Of The Road are similiar to mine, > which seems to have the following idiosyncrasies: > > 1) The 1st disc ends with ITCOTCK, but it prematurely ends. The track is > the > same as that on the Live in Detroit CD, but on that CD the track lasts for > 3:30 minutes. On Ladies it lasts 49 seconds. If my pressing isn't flawed I > can only think that the rest of the track was not deemed worthy. > > 2) At 4'57 on the 11th track of the second disc the audio completely blanks > out, only to return again at 5'57. A whole minute later! I can't think of > any reason that would have been done on purpose. Surely a pressing flaw? > > 3) The track ultimately abrubtly ends at 11'40. Since this was the last > track I would have thought we'd hear a return to the end of 21st Century > Schizoid Man proper (much like the first track acted as a lead in to the > solo > sections). Is this what everyone else has? > > I don't usually have problems with CDs from DGM, so I'm not convinced this > aren't all as they should be. > > Well, as it turns out, all of the above are intentional. My DGM sources tell me... 1) The track was only added as a humorous sampling. My suspicion that perhaps the rest of the track was not deemed worthy beyond the cutoff point was correct. 2) The 11th track on CD 2 apparantly ends at 4'57, to be followed with bonus material 1 minute later. 3) The track ends without a return to 21st Century Schizoid Man intentionally. Apparently, the lead in on the first track was originally not going to be included either - i.e. the entire CD would have been nothing but solo sections. So, apologies to DGM for jumping the gun on my ET posting, and hopefully the above sets the record straight so to speak. Please don't bombard DGM with requests for replacement CDs. Note, if they do future pressings I am told they may do the bonus track differently, by making the gap much longer, or simply eliminate the bonus track altogether, to avoid the confusion. Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:02:43 -0000 From: "Richard Adams" Subject: gaps Dan asked - I was wondering if other copies of Ladies Of The Road are similar to mine, which seems to have the following idiosyncrasies: 1) The 1st disc ends with ITCOTCK, but it prematurely ends. The track is the same as that on the Live in Detroit CD, but on that CD the track lasts for 3:30 minutes. On Ladies it lasts 49 seconds. If my pressing isn't flawed I can only think that the rest of the track was not deemed worthy. 2) At 4'57 on the 11th track of the second disc the audio completely blanks out, only to return again at 5'57. A whole minute later! I can't think of any reason that would have been done on purpose. Surely a pressing flaw? 3) The track ultimately abruptly ends at 11'40. Since this was the last track I would have thought we'd hear a return to the end of 21st Century Schizoid Man proper (much like the first track acted as a lead in to the solo sections). Is this what everyone else has? Well, I have exactly the same problems - if they are problems - but I can't imagine why anyone would want to put a gap in Schizoid Men when the whole point surely is to create a seamless track. And for ITCOTCK and Schizoid Men to end so abruptly is very irritating given the excellent mixing / blending together of songs over the rest of the discs. Cheers, Richard. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:16:43 +0100 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: crimson humour (or: the song "happy...) good evening hippies, hi adam bowerman, sometimes i think it is necessary just to repeat a posting, because, among the banter and bicker in ET, the really good and insightful and carefully written postings can not make themselves appropriately/adequately heard. this time, adam bowerman hits the nail, imho - so again, here is his posting from issue 1056: >Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:57:33 -0600 >From: "Adam Bowerman" >Subject: complaints about the song "Happy" >There have been a lot of complaints about the title track of the new EP, >but I am lost as to why. I understand that it sounds like a mesh of the >new radio bands with a slight Crimsonized feel, but isnt that the point? >The lyrics parody everything in the music, which I thought was quite >humorous. >-- we earnest, bespectacled young men very often miss the special crimson humour, i think - and even more often we think that we are more clever (or humourous, or....[add your favourite self-complacent self-description here]) than our king. which sometimes is the problem with ET, our sometimes stimulating, sometimes brilliant, sometimes boring forum. imho. greetings roderich ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:09:13 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: Bill Bruford / Happy EP/ Expectations/ HC video. Just my thoughts on BBs ways... There's a time and a place for everything and if BB would change things on the drums in the midst of a complex Yes structure it threatened to ruin the performance for players and audience, mistaking cues etc. When Bruford is performing a composition he should have rememebered he was playing a composition, that is, not an improvisation. He could conceivably be letting his fellow Yes members down with this action. Is this not a self-idulgence of a sort? Trying to keep a tight sound by following the same cues etc... He did this (apparently) with Genesis (and according to BB himself) still apologiese at all their birthdays and Christmas gatherings... He was obviously better off with KC who improvised far more and allowed BB to express his art form in the way he preferred. Ultimately not the way RF preferred which is where their differences (still?) lie. Daevid Allan in turn was hardly being fair to BB by calling him boring. Even BB had to get some sort of grip on material with which the Gong memebers were very familar. Allan is condemning BB for the time he had not spent with Gong. Give the man time to grow into Gong material, hell everyone needs time for that... Rhythm machine is an insult? If he sounded like a click track perhaps, but I thought that phrase was a complement. To me it meant BB can play anything when asked. Is that not very good? he never sounded like a drum machine (that could be a put down, but a rhythm machine, why not?). He must be dependable and imaginative, prime qualifications for KC. Mind you RF said to Pat Mastellotto that it was not his job to keep time. Perhaps my understanding of KCs music is very far from complete. i'm better off with guitrs and bass then drums and way behind on the list are the lyrics... BTW the cover of Happy and it's title. I think it is rather well indicated by the depiction of the British Lotto ticket on the woman's lap. I can only guess what they are watching on the telly... '8) Incidentally I never hear anything on commercial rock radio as i do not listen to any. Is there any in the UK that is? Let me know someone. point being that id=f KC are parodying something I'm misssing out on that subtlety. How will I cope... Now we know what to expect with Nuevo Metal, oops, I mean Power to Believe then may we have expectations as most of the material has now been released.... I also have triouble with the Heavy Construction video. I've had the audio play, I've had the video play but never... actually... simultaneously... cheers Lawrence NP. KC: Live In Nashville 2001 ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1057 *********************************