Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1056 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1056 Monday, 11 November 2002 Today's Topics: Fripp posts/KC live alone? More Bruford for Sott Eden Re: A reflection on Lizard and Andy McCulloch In The Court of the Crimson King question Heavy Construkction Video Trey Gunn's latest news complaints about the song "Happy" KC & Dr Who Power To Believe TraKclist Bill's Time Rockinbeerfest 2003 Trey Gunn Band and Rhythm Buddies news Bruford: Dollars and Rhythm Soft Machine Electric piano on "Easy Money"? Re: so much for no expectations Ladies Of The Road tracks Ladies Of The Road glitches? Reflections on Bill Bruford's drumming, etc. (LONG POST) Thrak-in-the-box Bruford's Limitations??? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 03:20:41 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: Fripp posts/KC live alone? Hey! It's been over 4 years since RF posted to this site. Do you think he still reads it? From what I've read, I think there's a pretty good chance he does. Let's all bitch and complain at the end of our posts that we want him to post again. I imagine it will embarrass him and he may post thinking that we don't "expect" it. Maybe not, oh well. I'm thinking I may go to the next KC concert that rolls around ALONE, seeing as I know no one who shares the same level of enthusiasm for the band that I do. Anyone else had this same experience? Is going to a KC show alone better than going with someone who only thinks they're amusing you? - Dave P.S. Maybe RF can tell us what he's listening to nowadays, if anything, or if he really feels the new album is the "most definitive KC recording since 1981", which I think I have been inadvertently expecting (due to Level 5, and Nashville 2001). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they've road-tested an album this way since "Discipline". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:02:44 -0600 From: Jeffc0101 at comcast dot net Subject: More Bruford for Sott Eden Scott- Are you a drummer? Just curious. As to the quotes from Gong and National Health, BB must have been trying something new, for he has stated in various quotes- paraphrasing here- " i dont really do the 'drummer's job' , as it were" i.e. , keeping a consistent beat. Both Phil Collins and Chris Squire, as well as Fripp, have expressed frustration at Bruford's apparent ability to play something different every time. In a recent interview, Bill mentioned that were he an up and comer today, he'd have a hard time finding a gig, referring to the proliferation of pre-programmed music that forces you to play the same every time. In regards to Andy McCulloch, I think you should read in Sid Smith's book about the making of Lizard. Apparently, Andy was struggling as to where to place the groove, because Fripp kept changing it. Gordon Haskell actually said to him "Look andy, this is the groove and all he(Fripp)'s done is remove the groove. You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead. " Which is Bruford's specialty!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:33:12 +0000 From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: Re: A reflection on Lizard and Andy McCulloch Michael Tanigawa writes: >Andy's next major gig was Greenslade, which was an offshoot of Colosseum >(the latter's "Beware the Ides of March" sounds embarrassingly like "Whiter >Shade of Pale"). Uh . . . yeah . . . and both of them sound embarrassingly like a piece of music that Bach wrote about 250 years earlier! :~) Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:55:31 -0800 (PST) From: ryan bradley Subject: In The Court of the Crimson King question hey, i am a 19 year old writer/actor/musician who was somewhat recently turned on to KC when i was told that my some of my poetry is reminiscent of their music. i immediately looked into the band, and have acquired several of the albums. i have a question concerning the KC albums that i figured someone on the ET list would be able to answer. i have been trying to get all the albums that are available in the cardboard cases instead of in the jewel cases first, and i have put off buying In The Court of the Crimson King, because i have only seen it in a jewel case. i am wondering if it is actually even available in the cardboard case. if anybody can provide me with an answer i would appreciate it, because if it is in fact available in the cardboard case, i will continue to look for that edition, but if not i will go out immediately and buy the album in a jewel case. thank you. ryan w. bradley GO.com Mail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:19:53 +1100 From: "Peter Allen" Subject: Heavy Construkction Video "Labbauf, Les" wrote: > > In ET 1052 Tony Asked: > > >> Help! How do I access this video? The password link appears to be > >> dead. Is this something that might now unofficially circulate in > >> VCD format? > > >> Tony Iremonger > >> Melbourne, Australia > > Maybe this can be added to the FAQ. To access the video on the Heavy > Construkction disc. Assuming you are using Windows ME/2000. > > Insert the CD in PC-CDRom Drive > Open Windows Explorer (Not IE) > Click On Tools > Click On View > Click on Show Hidden Files > Click OK. > > You should then be able to search the disc for media files, *.wma or > *.w*. > > The file should appear, and you will be able to open it in Windows > Media player without a password. This is not accurate, unless there are different versions floating around. Please see my previous post in ET #1054. On my copy of Heavy Construction the video data is an .asf file, which is still a Windows Media Player (WMP) format., but not .wma or .w* . The file is not a hidden one, and can be found in the \data\ subdirectory. Certainly you can copy this file to your hard disc and play it from there. Alternatively; (i) find the file on the CDROM using Windows Explorer and double click on it to automatically start WMP and the movie. (ii) Using Windows Explorer right click and drag the file to your desktop to create a shortcut, so all you have to do in future is put the CD in, and double-click the shortcut icon. All of these methods bypass the need for the "rome" password, unless you still want to see the fancy browser interface while the concert plays. By all means let's have this on the FAQ, if it's not already there (I haven't looked). Let's just say the idea of playing games with our discs and making access to some of the contents nominally dependent on a password is one I hope won't be repeated. I'm too old for this sort of nonsense, I just want to watch and listen to the music :-) People can get carried away with the technology at times. Cheers, Peter Dr Peter Allen (pda at melbpc dot org dot au) Melbourne PC User Group ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:11:07 -0800 (PST) From: rone at ennui dot org (definitely what) Subject: Trey Gunn's latest news On his Web site's Latest News page, in the middle of abjectly apologizing for the delay in the dispatch of the Road Journals CDs, Trey interjects: "Fripp has said to me that this is possibility the most definitive King Crimson recording since 1981." Take that for what it's worth. :) rone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 04:57:33 -0600 From: "Adam Bowerman" Subject: complaints about the song "Happy" There have been a lot of complaints about the title track of the new EP, but I am lost as to why. I understand that it sounds like a mesh of the new radio bands with a slight Crimsonized feel, but isnt that the point? The lyrics parody everything in the music, which I thought was quite humorous. Its interesting to hear an interpretation of what these new bands sound like through the minds and ears of those musicians that we tend to admire. As with most KC albums, I try to empty my musical palate before digesting the music. This keeps me from having any expectations, which I feel is necessary with this band, and helps me to view each new release as its own entity instead of a follow up to the previous album. Just my thoughts Adam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:44:12 -0000 From: "Wafo" Subject: KC & Dr Who Interesting that someone (Johnakni at aol dot com) drew up comparisons between Robert Fripp's work and the work of the BBC Radiophonic Workshop in Dr Who. It's true that The Devil's Triangle was used in the 1971 story The Mind of Evil (arch-villain The Master was seen listening to it in a car, so I assume the production team figured it was the most evil piece of music they could find). True also that Toyah is a dedicated fan - she is interviewed on the (highly brilliant) documentary 30 Years in the TARDIS, talking about her Cyberman fetish. But I don't know which 80s story you are referring to which sounds particularly Fripp-like. Roger Limb's soundtracks (The Caves of Androzani, Revelation of the Daleks et al) do rely very heavily on the same sort of atmospheric synth washes that Fripp uses in his soundscapes, though obviously by different means and for different reasons. Similarly though, when I first heard Thrakattak, I found it especially pleasing because, above all, it reminded me very much of the incidental music from Dr Who (though several degrees more hellish). A very under-rated and highly influential outfit, that BBC Radiophonic Workshop lot. Also on the subject of the incidental music of The Prisoner, it has never occurred to me that King Crimson have ever remotely sounded like any of this stuff. But if you've had the intense pleasure to listen to any of the bootlegs of the Beach Boys' unreleased Smile album, there's a fantastic instrumental called Holidays which sounds like it could have been ripped off for Prisoner music itself. On the question of whether King Crimson ever rips anyone off musically, I always felt that the chorus riff from People was ripped off from somewhere, but I couldn't tell where. Then it occurred to me that it was probably a reworking of the main riff from Sleepless and I felt a bit better. But on the whole, there's so much music going on that it's an utter tribute to the band in all its incarnations that so little of King Crimson's music sounds like anyone else. Which brings me onto the new Happy EP and the gripes it's getting from certain quarters. It should be obvious to anyone that, with the exception of Lizard, every King Crimson album contains at least one track that's a potential single (ie. radio friendly). It seems to me that this EP contains two different versions of what will probably be the two most radio-friendly songs on the upcoming album. So I don't know why anyone's surprised when they hear what are essentially new Crimson pop songs. The title track in itself is a masterpiece. No one could get away with those lyrics unless they were in a position actually to pull it off themselves - this track DELIBERATELY sounds like a standard metal song, and a bloody good one at that. It's a comment on the genre. As for the shorter bits on the EP that stand accused of being "filler" material - I don't think there's any reason for the band to do "fillers" at all. These are ideas, that's all - King Crimson presented to us as listeners in a different way. And perfectly valid. Anyone familiar with the Boards of Canada will notice the similarity with the way their album "Music Has the Right to Children" is structured - short pieces and longer pieces sit side by side, and it's a valid choice. And does anyone regard stuff like Inner Garden to be filler on Thrak? It's mood-setting stuff, not "filler material". And when it comes to Potato Pie, are the detractors saying that King Crimson should never step out of its boundaries and do something as an experiment, an exercise, a joke? Sorry, it just gets on my tits when supposed enthusiasts of the band continue to knock every new thing their favourite band does. Reminds me very much of how Dr Who fans used to react to Dr Who. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:17:28 +1100 From: "Peter Allen" Subject: Power To Believe TraKclist On Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:00:33 +0100 "Schopf" wrote: > > Robert Fripp has posted the tracklist of the new CD in his Nov. 1st > dgm diary: > SNIP > > Hmm, now that I've already got the Level 5 EP, the Live In Nashville > 2001 CD and the Happy EP, the only new traKcs for me will be The Power > To Believe and Facts Of Life. Well, there's still hope that Level 5, > Eyes Wide Open (electric version?), EleKtriK and Dangerous Curves > sound quite different from the versions that I already have. But > never mind, I'm looking forward to the CD anyway - I really like all > the already available traKcs :o) Come on, it's not so bad, considering that The Power To Believe and Facts Of Life account for 6 of the 11 tracks, and the others will be different to the versions we know! Cheers, Peter Dr Peter Allen (pda at melbpc dot org dot au) Melbourne PC User Group ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:15:43 +0100 From: "john veerman" Subject: Bill's Time Hi, In fact, Scott's remarks are in some ways true - not exactly those about rythm machines, but still about Bill Bruford's staying with time. Having seen and heard him twice last week in Holland, I'm as always convinced of this fact. I myself am a huge fan of Bill's playing and presence and - whether I like it or not - as a drummer am greatly influenced by him. I've been analyzing his playing for years. One of the characteristics of Bruford's playing (which is indeed 'playing', despite the quote that he would have been somewhat lazy in the mid-70's, and his parts fixed) is, that he is in control - or at least attemps to stay in control. He has commented on this several times: there's a famous saying about Jamie Muir, whom Bruford admired for his abillity to go totally off-pulse. Great about Bill is his striving to overcome natural limitations. Lazy is a ridiculous qualification of someone who refuses to stay - unlike many others who do! - where he is and make money. He learned to play, for instance, fantastic polyrhythmic structures, that he couldn't produce 25 years ago (I could go on, but won't). He's probably no longer dreaming of Elvin. But, as mentioned, he stays with the pulse. Playing fives over it, to catch up with Tony only twenty measures later , alright but he's never lost. On the other hand, although his jazz approach with the newer Earthworks is still on the British side of things, maybe I hear him really stretching cadances during the last years. Will there ever be a stretching in Bill's playing like Tony Williams's time keeping had? What's the goal? During the Arnhem master class of last week Bill proposed to have a short break. Because he would be short of ideas at that moment. It turned a big smile on every attender's face - including his own. John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:09:22 -0000 From: "David Roberts" Subject: Rockinbeerfest 2003 I wonder what the chances are of getting 21 century to play at my new little festival near Cambridge in 2003. I saw them at Canterbury and the were well received by the 2000+ there. I want a festival with quality music, a quality sound system that isn't over driven - other essentials are:- 1.. Food about #3.00 for a meal no rip offs. 2.. Good selection of well kept beer at #2.00 or less a pint. 3.. Toilets that are usable and kept clean. 4.. Young bands who work at it and show genuine talent and musical ability. 5.. Bands of my era - when instruments were played well - they have had time to perfect the craft since. 6.. Camping on site no need to drive drunk. 7.. Parking within yards or within the campsite area. Some suggestions so far include Stray, Wishbone Ash, Osibisa, Meet on the Ledge, etc. If you have seen "Field of Dreams" I believe they will come!! providing I get the formula right and ensure a good time is had by all, they will come back in 2004. Someone tell me how to get KC there and we can have it all. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:10:26 -0800 From: "Paul A. O'Rear" Subject: Trey Gunn Band and Rhythm Buddies news Haven't seen mention of it here yet or on Krimson News, so I thought I'd pass these little tidbits along: Trey's site has some updated information in his Word\latest news section about the imminent release of his Road Journals CD set. I've been looking forward to this as I'm sure many others here have as well. http://www.treygunn.com Also, in this news it mentions that Trey has been working with BPM&M on the Thunderbird Suite stuff that was recorded over the summer while KC was recording The Power To Believe. It mentions that there are plans to release this material more officially - Great news! There's some very interesting stuff in those recordings. Also of interest to Austin dwellers - there was a Pat interview referred to on the Krimson News site that indicates that there may be a live performance of the Rhythm Buddies there this month. The interview says: "His Austin shows with Gunn in November and with Bozzio on January 18th will rely heavily on Live and Reason." http://www.m-audio.com/news/interviews/pat.php Keep on thrakking! Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:18:46 -0800 From: Andrew Benzie Subject: Bruford: Dollars and Rhythm There's been a few opinions posted recently about Bill Bruford, that I have just found too hard to swallow. So here's a couple of mine. The suggestion that financial reasons are why Bill is currently doing Earthworks (his jazz group) instead of playing rock music is unrealistic. The pay is generally far better for pro rock drummers than pro jazz drummers -- in fact, I believe BB stated that one of the main reasons he did the Yes Union tour in 1991 was to finance his jazz project. But more importantly -- jazz music is his true love, that's why he's doing it. Go see them play and you'll understand. And (especially as a drummer myself) to read that BB is "a rhythm machine" frankly, blows me away! I couldn't disagree more strongly. I'm listening to my new USA CD (great!) and to be honest have a hard time understanding how anyone could ever reach this conclusion. BB is one of my favorite drummers of all time, and the main reason is his ability to "go off rhythm". He's one of the most consistently inconsistent, subtle, creative, dynamic, inventive, powerful drummers I've ever heard, live and in the studio. Just my $0.02, ab -- http://www.andreworld.com ======================================================= "Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer." - Dave Barry ======================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:58:22 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: Soft Machine I've often felt Soft Machine complimented KC perfectly (esp. '72-'74 KC). SM's "softness" vs. KC's hardness; SM's fondness for "drop a beat" time signatures (7/8, 11/8) vs. KC's emphasis on "add a beat" 5/8 [although both bands use a great variety of odd time signatures (and simultaneous combinations thereof), I'm just referring to their respective tendencies]. I can't think of any other reasons why, but when I've been listening to a lot of KC, nothing sounds better than SM. ...they also make for great driving music! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 17:44:49 -0600 From: Christian Hess Subject: Electric piano on "Easy Money"? Hi, all. One question: in the final minutes of "Easy Money", an electric piano can clearly be heard in the background, yet the liner notes credit no one with playing keyboards other than the mellotron. So who would that be? Thanks in advance to anyone with the answer. Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica MusicaProgresiva.com (www.musicaprogresiva.com): rock progresivo y sinfonico ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 17:48:24 -0600 From: Christian Hess Subject: Re: so much for no expectations Sounds like Jon Anderson, who upon the release of *every* new Yes album says something along the lines of "this is our best album and the kind of music we really wanted to play". ;-) >Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:43:48 -0500 >From: "Justin Weinberg" >Subject: so much for no expectations > >According to a rare update at Trey Gunn's site, in reference to the >forthcoming album _The Power to Believe_: > >"Fripp has said to me that this is possibly the most definitive King >Crimson recording since 1981." Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica MusicaProgresiva.com (www.musicaprogresiva.com): rock progresivo y sinfonico ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:20:10 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Ladies Of The Road tracks I've been comparing the tracks on the Ladies Of The Road CD to the 4 existing KCCC releases to try to determine the origin of each track and have come up with the following that I've posted to ET Web: Volume One: Ladies Of The Road 8'46 Pictures of a City (from Live at Summit Studios) 4'43 The Letters (from Live at Plymouth) 6'42 Formentera Lady (abridged) (from Live in Detroit) 5'43 The Sailors Tale (Unknown origin) 7'58 Cirkus (from Live in Detroit) 6'52 Groon (from Live at Summit Studios) 8'34 Get Thy Bearings (Unknown origin) 8'58 21st Century Schizoid Man (from Live at Summit Studios) 0'49 In the Court of the Crimson King (from Live in Detroit) Volume Two: Schizoid Men 54'00 11 Tracks The beginning of The Sailors Tale is definitely a contination from Formentera Lady from Live in Detroit, but then it differs quite distinctly, so this one is from something I haven't heard before. The end is again from Detroit and leads into Cirkus from the same Detroit release. Get Thy Bearings is also new. The only other version we have of that is from Plymouth and this one sounds very good, unlike the poor quality recording from Plymouth which is also "joined in progress". If anyone would care to confirm or correct my info please let me know. Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:25:54 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Ladies Of The Road glitches? I was wondering if other copies of Ladies Of The Road are similiar to mine, which seems to have the following idiosyncrasies: 1) The 1st disc ends with ITCOTCK, but it prematurely ends. The track is the same as that on the Live in Detroit CD, but on that CD the track lasts for 3:30 minutes. On Ladies it lasts 49 seconds. If my pressing isn't flawed I can only think that the rest of the track was not deemed worthy. 2) At 4'57 on the 11th track of the second disc the audio completely blanks out, only to return again at 5'57. A whole minute later! I can't think of any reason that would have been done on purpose. Surely a pressing flaw? 3) The track ultimately abrubtly ends at 11'40. Since this was the last track I would have thought we'd hear a return to the end of 21st Century Schizoid Man proper (much like the first track acted as a lead in to the solo sections). Is this what everyone else has? I don't usually have problems with CDs from DGM, so I'm not convinced this aren't all as they should be. Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:12:53 -0600 From: "Robert Rucker" Subject: Reflections on Bill Bruford's drumming, etc. (LONG POST) Hello, all. I am a longtime lurker on the list, and have never posted. I have considered posting a few times in the past, but have always let it go. This time, though, I felt an inexplicable need to give some thoughts on what has been said recently concerning Bill Bruford's drumming. (I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but it is a thoughtful and considered post (if I may say so), of the sort of which I would like to see more in Elephant Talk.) Scott Eden began this discussion when he made a comparison of sorts between Bruford and Andy McCulloch. Mr. Eden has since reminded us that we should not make too much of his remarks concerning Bruford, since his primary intention was to praise McCulloch, not to put down Bruford. It is quite fair for him to distance himself somewhat from this (potentially ugly) discussion, but the matter is now open, it seems. I now present Mr. Eden's quotes, followed by my responses to them. (This is merely a device to facilitate presentation of my thoughts, not to appear antagonistic or disparaging toward Mr. Eden, with whom I am overall in a great deal of agreement, apparently, concerning the _Lizard_ album and its merits.) "Bruford is a great drummer, but he is a rhythm machine." It seems that some of the negative reaction to this post may be because Mr. Eden calls Bruford a kind of "machine." He does go on to describe more exactly what he means by this name, but the damage may have been done here; calling a drummer "mechanical" or a "machine" often conjures up thoughts of certain heavy metal drummers (e.g., Dream Theater's Mike Portnoy, recently mentioned on this list) who tend to follow the beat much more single-mindedly than other rock drummers. (NOTE: This should by no means be taken as a negative statement toward Portnoy or Dream Theater; Portnoy has admirable technique and professionalism, and Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands--I have all their albums and I've seen them live twice.) "I feel that he lacks a certain amount of subtlety...." I don't mean to sound smug, but I refer Mr. Eden to a song he may have overlooked: the song is from _Starless and Bible Black_, and it is called "Trio." It is a model of subtlety for a drummer. Besides that little joke (which still contains some truth), I think that Bruford's playing on _Beat_, _Three of a Perfect Pair_, and especially _Discipline_ is often remarkably subtle, in my opinion. "...and the ability to go off the rhythm." There are some decent examples on the three albums I just mentioned of what I consider off-beat drumming (in a good way, of course), or even rhythms that sound off-beat but are not. An example of what I have in mind with this last remark is Bruford's work on "The Sheltering Sky" and the title track from _Discipline_. More traditionally "off-beat" drum patterns can be found, perhaps, on "Thela Hun Ginjeet" and "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part III," to name a few. But for some really great off-beat playing, the stuff from the seventies' Crimson lineup with Bruford is probably the place to look. I'm thinking particularly of "Fracture" from _Starless and Bible Black_. And then, of course, there is the double trio material, with which Mr. Eden admits his unfamiliarity. "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream," in particular, is a good example of Bruford and Pat Mastelotto playing (rather literally) off the beat (each other's beat, that is). "McCulloch is all over the place on Lizard, adding fills, atmosphere, and off beat rhythms to the entire album." The above is true, but similar things are true of (for example) _Discipline_, in my opinion. It's just a matter of hearing one instrument in relation to the entire work. When I first heard _Discipline_ (and even occasionally now), I was genuinely *shocked* by some of Bruford's drum choices. I thought to myself: "I did not know he was going to do that there!" _Absent Lovers_ gave me a similar revelation, as did _Deja Vrooom_ (already mentioned by Malcolm Xerxes). For non-Crimson examples, I think Bruford's playing on the Yes album _Close to the Edge_ is "atmospheric" in the above sense. Perhaps it is a little traditional, but the things he does within that traditional framework are just amazing. In addition, the work he did with his own fusion group in the late seventies contains some amazing drum work. I'm thinking in particular of "Hell's Bells," from the _One of a Kind_ album--does it count as playing "off the beat" if that's what the whole band is doing? :-) "Unfortunately, he is the forgotten Crimson drummer." I thought Pat Mastelotto was the forgotten Crimson drummer? Just kidding; I think the above statement is true, actually. "McCulloch brought a jazz drummer's approach to the album." Couldn't this be said (literally) of Bruford? "I find him to be one of the laziest of the great drummers." Surely Mr. Eden is aware of how many artists Bruford has accompanied? "Lazy" would not be my term for someone the length of who's resume is second, perhaps, only to Tony Levin as far as progressive rock musicians go. But this is not what Mr. Eden meant, I guess. He goes on to explain: "I don't think he mixes it up enough." I don't really know where this comes from. What's more, I'm not sure how it fits with Mr. Eden's statement (earlier in the same post): "I...find him [Bruford] to be one of the more [sic] fascinating drummers." In defense of this view, though, Mr. Eden presents some quotes from famous musicians whom Bruford has accompanied in his career. "In the 1974-1976 period, Bruford sat in with two groups that are even more eclectic and odd-musical-timing oriented than Crimson, Gong (late 1974) and National Health (late 1975-1976)." I'm not familiar with National Health, but just as an aside, I don't think I would say that Gong (in the period of time to which Mr. Eden refers) is more eclectic or more "odd-musical-timing oriented" than the Crimson lineup Bruford was just exiting. "Daevid Allen: 'Bill Bruford was actually a very boring drummer to play with, because he played exactly the same every night.'" It appears to me that selecting quotes from bands with whom Bruford played for only a short while, in a sideman-type role, is not the best way to highlight the essence of his playing style. The reason for this is that Bruford might not have had time to insert his own style into the writing of the songs, and he might actually have felt (understandable) pressure to play the songs "straight," so to speak. The difference is highlighted by some quotes I have from a couple of Bruford's old band mates in Yes. Peter Banks, for instance, has said, "Bill...would change things around. I can remember him saying, 'I'm going to play everything different tonight'just before we went on stage. It was the sign of a very inventive drummer." And Steve Howe: "What Bill was doing for Yes [before he quit], no other drummer could do. He was saying 'no' to things--'I'm not gonna play that! Don't ask me to play 4/4.' That was the trait in him that I liked. Let's steer away from every cliche." Manek Dubash had an interesting response to Mr. Eden's post: "Bruford's many qualities include his wonderful ability and stated intent to leave the rhythm to someone else and come back to it later." I agree with this, and in addition I think Robert Fripp was influential in teaching Bruford this ability. As I close this section of my post, I must reassert that it has not been my intention to sound dismissive, disparaging, or patronizing toward Mr. Eden for his views; as stated above, he and I are in agreement on a few things, at least; I particularly love his characterization of _Lizard_ as Crimson's "most cinematic work." My intention, in fact, is not even to assert that Bruford is superior to McCulloch as far as drumming goes; I am a firm believer in the subjectivity of artistic value, and can only say that Bruford strikes me in a more favorable way than does McCulloch. Actually, I am not even sure that Mr. Eden and myself are in disagreement about the merits of Bruford's playing; perhaps he has simply expressed himself differently from the way I would have. So my modest goal, I suppose, is simply to suggest that there are different ways of hearing different drummers. Bruford does not have every virtue a drummer could have, but, as he has said, "What I can do is sell you the drums....Once I've got you sitting in front of me, I defy you to resist my drumming." My thanks to Mr. Eden for inspiring me to think carefully about an artist whom I greatly respect, and for perhaps doing the same for a multitude of people. Moving on: Claypool's Brigade played "Intruder," huh? That must have been awesome. Are there any recordings of this performance (yet)? :-) Finally: I don't think I've seen anyone answer Dan Cooper's trivia question in ET1050. I'm sure many people know the answer, but for those who don't, the man who gave that quote was Art Blakey, and he was a real monster on the drums. Well, I'm about out of breath, so that'll be all for now. --Robert ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:49:19 +0000 From: Paul Timms Subject: Thrak-in-the-box I picked up a copy of Thrak from a secondhand shop last week, but it was in a silver-coloured metal box about 15" long and 6" wide, and contains a booklet with photos and a brief summary of the life of KC. The CD is the gold CD which was also available in a standard It's obviously some kind of special edition but how special is it? Does anyone else have it? Was it released for a particular reason? Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:48:30 -0600 From: "Buzz Fenner" Subject: Bruford's Limitations??? Manek Dubash wrote: "I can't believe you said that! Bruford's many qualities include his wonderful ability and stated intent to leave the rhythm to someone else and come back to it later. Maybe you're not listening hard enough..." It was also alleged that during his tenure in Yes, and especially on the concert stage the other band members would cringe because they knew that sometime, in the midst of a song, rhythmically he would take an un-rehearsed left turn and just leave the rest of them flat on their face! Buzz Fenner mailto:bfenner at bscn dot com ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1056 *********************************