Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1053 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1053 Tuesday, 5 November 2002 Today's Topics: Re: Prog rivals and Crimso Drummers Old King Crimson photographs Heavy ConstruKction password Levin vs. Wetton Happy EP is the best A reflection on Lizard and Andy McCulloch Peter Gabriel The New EP Grand Funk Railroad Happy release - another punter offers an unsolicited opinion. Re: Being 45 and soaking up the late 60's prog rock in my Re: KING CRIMSON "Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With" Re: Zappa 'quote' Heavy Construkction tour and KC on DVD EVO e-digest of news Ramblings of a Newbie ETer can anyone give me a straight answer ? Re: PolitiKcs & Nuovo Metal ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:44:39 +0000 From: "Dan Ceo" Subject: Re: Prog rivals and Crimso Drummers In response to the message about drummers, in mentioning crossover drummers, like Mitchell, Bonham, Bruford, Giles, Thompson, Portnoy, etc., you forgot another very important drummer, Ginger Baker. Sure, he didn't play much that could be considered "progressive" but he is still a very serious drummer and you can tell he's studied jazz under the best of 'em. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 15:14:06 -0800 From: "photosets.net" Subject: Old King Crimson photographs Hi, I was hoping that you could make an image link to my website. My photograph website is very unusual because it offers complete sets of prints from whole rolls of 1970's 35mm film. Since most photo sites are owned by photographers, they only offer single prints at $20-500 each and NEVER offer whole sets. My sets are almost always priced $25- 99. I've searched all over the net and have only found one other site offering sets, and they only have two artists. (If you know of any others, please tell me.) I'm willing to Offer buyers mentioning your site 20% off listed price. If you find a set of prints that you'd like for yourself, I can offer 35% off the first set. Your visitors will probably appreciate the link very much. Most will only be interested in browsing but those in the market to buy will get a fabulous bargin. Please think about it. I would greatly appreciate your help. Thank you very much, Brannon www.photosets.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 00:00:21 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: Heavy ConstruKction password The Heavy ConstruKction password is "ROME". No Pussyfooting?! ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 2002 07:50:30 -0500 From: Chris Cowan Subject: Levin vs. Wetton Concerning who the more recorded artist is, you can consult: http://www.tonylevin.com/tldiscog.htm and http://drdancha.wso.net/wetton/discography.htm I know that Levin is a very busy "session" guy, who lives in Woodstock, NY, and catches a lot of gigs out of NYC. I suspect his discography is incomplete, and missing stuff. A quick glance at Wetton's list seems show some that it may be padded out with Greatest Hits, Compilations, and KCCC type of releases. But, I'm too lazy to count. So I leave it to you to be the judge. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:08:52 -0000 From: "Wafo" Subject: Happy EP is the best Hello all I'm in Crim-nerd heaven at the moment, having just received 7 KCCC releases and the Happy EP via DGM. It's only fitting I should be even more of a Crim-nerd and post my rambling thoughts on each. Hyde Park 69 - Whoever said this release wasn't worth it is wrong. It's a great gig. Mantra & Travel Weary Capricorn are here far better than the ones on the Epitaph disc. Mars is better for being more concise. Exciting stuff. And the drumming on the instrumental Schizoid Man is worth the price alone. Detroit 71 - I want to like this but it will take time. There's something really muddy about this band. There are moments of real tension between the band and the audience - certain members of the band appear to have disdain for them. Makes it prickly listening. And Groon is by turns the most fantastic and the most awful piece of music ever. Zoom Club 72 - I admit the poor sound has meant I haven't tackled the whole of this yet, but the different takes on well-known pieces make it fascinating. Interesting to hear bits of Lament in "Zoom". Vrooom Sessions 94 - Amazing. Calliope is stunning. Much funkier than the eventual EP. Hard to believe this is from their first few days together. Nashville Rehearsals 97 - You can see why this band broke up, especially comparing it with the Vrooom disc. But in time, I know I'll come to love this. Interesting to hear Fripp's Level Five solo so early on. Roar of P4 - again, it will take time Nasville 2001 - incredible from start to finish. eleKtriK is simply wonderful. Interesting how the new band have taken themes from TCOL and made them somehow simpler, more elegant. Deception of the Thrush is so great it made me cry. Elephant Talk really rips home. This is no longer a band with great potential - that potential is being fulfilled right here in this CD. It's phenomenal. Happy EP - I'd never have guessed it when I started getting into King Crimson, but my greatest allegiance is to the newest version of the band. This is a band which has struggled hard to find its feet, but the pay-off is immense. The music on this disc is the kind of thing that, without any qualification whatsoever, ought to herald a serious return to the First Division. This is commercial stuff in the modern sense - forward thinking while being accessible. The production on Happy is world-class, and deliberately so. Happy itself is one of the catchiest and funniest tunes King Crimson have ever put a name to, while at the same time being one of the heaviest. It's perfect. Eyes Wide Open is beautiful - I love the key change when it goes from the opening section into the first verse, and the lyrics manage to convey a serious optimism without being preachy. Potato Pie is alarming to hear for the first time, but totally uplifting, and what a fantastic vocal performance from Belew. Einstein's Relatives is very funny. THIS BAND IS HAVING FUN. On TCOL, the aim seemed to be to cut away all the extraneous elements and form a concentrated, heavy sound, with each member of the band upfront and vying for attention, while performing the most complex rock structures humanly possible. Now the band has coalesced - you can hear them actually working together more. Songs like EleKtriK and Eyes Wide Open are complex enough, but they sound simple when you hear them. This band doesn't have to show off. I assume that, with Level Five, Nasville 2001 and now the Happy EP, we've now heard some version of each of the songs that will appear on the new album. If that's true, and with the production values shown on the new single, I am anticipating that The Power to Believe will be King Crimson's crowning achievement. I may be setting myself up for a dangerous disappointment, but then, perhaps that's what "the power to beleive" is all about. I haven't liked a band this much since I was 15. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 08:02:17 -0500 From: "Eden, Scott C Mr (Contractor)" Subject: A reflection on Lizard and Andy McCulloch Hello All Lizard has always been my favorite Crimson album. I find it full of wonderful intricacies and odd rhythms. It is definitely their most cinematic work. Typically, this was the only album whose core lineup never toured. I remember being impressed by Andy McCulloch, and Gordon Haskell's great vocals. Well I listened to Lizard for the first time in about 8 years the other day and really listened to McCulloch's drumming. After listening to the entire disc, I am hereby nominating his performance on this album as the most impressive drumming on a 1969-1984 Crimson LP (I am not very familiar with the post 1984 Crimson). Bruford is a great drummer, but he is a rhythm machine. I feel that he lacks a certain amount of subtlety and the ability to go off the rhythm (for lack of a better way to express my thoughts). McCulloch is all over the place on Lizard, adding fills, atmosphere, and off beat rhythms to the entire album. I think his performance is truly amazing. Unfortunately, he is the forgotten Crimson drummer, much like Lizard and Gordon Haskell are often forgotten as well. McCulloch brought a jazz drummer's approach to the album that was just perfect for Lizard. I think he is very much underrated and deserves recognition for his abilities. What happened to him after Crimson? Scott Eden ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 08:35:33 -0800 From: acomplex at earthlink dot net Subject: Peter Gabriel Hey all, I was recently introduced to the solo works of Peter Gabriel (previously having only known Sledgehammer, being the child of the 80s that I am..) and recently bought a copy of his first solo CD. Now my question is this: On the disc, which guitar parts are played by Robert Fripp? I assume not many leads as most of them are fairly traditional blues leads, which - as I was led to believe - Robert Fripp is not inclined towards. While we're on the subject, why not give me the full rundown of the first three albums in this regard...you know, so I don't have to ask after I get the others ^_-. Thanks, Alex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:29:03 -0500 From: "Beth El" Subject: The New EP I am more than happy with what I have found on this one. First off, it had sort of been running through my head that I know the guys have senses of humor, but can come across as stuffy. So, why not lighten up a bit? Then I got the disc and "Einstein's Relatives" did it. I really laughed. I don't know if anyone else has said it yet or not since I haven't seen an ET post in a while, but this final song seems to be another testimonial of Belew's Beatle love, this time in the form of a "Revolution #9" tribute. The title track of the album, "Happy..." is heavy, rocking and worthy of a chuckle itself. There's nothing on the album I don't like, and best of all, that's the tastiest Lark's Tongue I've had in years! Peace and Love, Scott Cooper Congregation Beth El 222 Irvington Ave. South Orange, NJ 07079 (973)763-0111 www.bethelnj.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:22:33 -0000 From: "Jim Strong" Subject: Grand Funk Railroad Am I imagining it, or did King Crimson support Grand Funk Railroad in Hyde Park (or some other London park) around 1969? I saw them both there, but can't remember if it was one or two concerts - and I didn't do drugs, by the way! Thanks Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:41:44 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Happy release - another punter offers an unsolicited opinion. OK. First impressions are not always lasting impressions. But here are my first impressions. Overall This is an odd Krimson release. It's the most "American" sounding Krimson recording. If it weren't for the inclusion of LTIA-IV, the harmonized vocal interludes and "Eyes Wide Open," this sounds very much like music that is being produced by 20-30 somethings in thousands of rehearsals rooms across America. In some ways, that our aging Krimsoids can walk in these shoes so powerfully is a compliment. However, these are someone else's shoes. Compositionally, if Krimson stays in this blues-based riffing genre, I suggest it is playing someone else's game and has taken a turn onto an already well traveled road. In my heart I'm hoping this release serves to evacuate some materiel that they've accumulated and leaves the path clear for "The Power To Believe" be more adventurous, compositionally rich and abstracted. Blow by blow 1. This record sounds much better that TCOL. Judging by the "Einstein collage," I'd guess the boys / Adrian are recording to Hard-Drive now instead of ADATs. The fidelity is WAY better. The mastering is very current with almost all dynamics being flattened out. But for this material, it works and it's punchy! 2. Given the abuse Adrian has received for his Krimson input, to my ears it's ironic that the little "O' Superman / Laurie Andersonesque" harmonized vocal interludes are more "Krimson" than the blues-based riffing of the "Happy" and "Potato" tunes. 3. Two out of three sections in "Happy" sound like they could come from any number of younger heavy bands. To my ears, as huge and powerful as this song is, the arrangement and vocal phrasing are sooo in the already-well-explored "new metal" genre that it's a little disappointing. That one other section has the Krimson stamp. More of that please! 4. Eyes Wide Open, with its ethno-techno-coustic texture, offers a somewhat new sound for Krimson. It this finds itself on The Power to Believe, I'm curious to hear an electric version. It's the kind of tune that I suspect will sound better or worse depending on what other material surrounds it. 5. "Potato" doesn't add much to either the blues or Krimson. While "ProzaKc Blues" suffers from perhaps being a verse or two too long, it sounds much stronger than Potato and does the job better. No meat here. 6. LTIA-IV is a scorcher. The mix/mastering production on this version is thunderous and concentrated. It sounds waaaay more powerful than the TCOL version. Adrian's wailing solo toward the end when the rest of the band are all hitting at once is, to my ears, a fittingly Krimson take on the blues, if one is needed. 7. The Einstein collage is a humorous present for bearded, earnest young men of any age, who may or may not have beards. Krimson meets the Marx Brothers The sound quality of these tracks could lead one to believe this is Krimson's "new direction." Perhaps -- but I kind of doubt it. I eagerly await The Power to Believe. David Kirkdorffer UNDO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:45:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: Re: Being 45 and soaking up the late 60's prog rock in my >"Being 45 and soaking up the late 60's prog rock in my pre teen years I must >say the first Tull and Yes did not even come close to where King Crimson >debuted. No one did." Your mailer does not seem to like the words "pre teen" and it keeps rejecting my post. [ That'll be my home-grown spam filter. My apologies. -- Toby ] I was in the 8th grade when ItCotKC came out. Upon hearing this album for the first time, I lost interest in every band I had been listening to up to that point (Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Cream, Santana, Hendrix, Moody Blues, etc.). Mom liked the first album and also the Devil's Triangle suite from ItWoP. Evidently she thought KC were of the same genre as Mantovani and Ferrante and Teicher. In comparison I found the subsequent KC albums disappointing. With a few exceptions (Bolero, Sailor's Tale) Lizard and Islands were virtually unlistenable and it took me many years to finally appreciate them. It seemed to me then that the songs on these albums were in a half-finished state. I attributed this to the loss of Ian McDonald's orchestration skills. Today my opinion is less harsh and I would compare this period of the band to Coltrane at his most experimental. The 72-74 group is now my favorite incarnation of the band, but except for "Exiles" and "Red" (the song, not the album) I didn't start to appreciate them until the Great Deceiver set was released some 20 years later. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 00:21:31 -0600 From: CRAIG Subject: Re: KING CRIMSON "Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With" If this sample is what we have to look fwd to, well,... I echo their sentiments. ~C KING CRIMSON "Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With" (Sanctuary) cd ep 11.98 We didn't expect that this new Crimson disc, some sort of pre-album ep of new songs, mixes, and acoustic versions, would be all that great. But you can always hope. Well, so much for hope. This includes "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part VI" but a better title would be "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part Suck". The King Crimson line-up listed here consists of Fripp, Belew, somebody, and somebody else. No Bruford or Levin (we mention, for those that care). But it seems that this must also include uncredited contributions from Stone Temple Pilots, Blues Traveler, and some vocoder vocals from a bunch of Battlestar Galactica Cylons. Yuch. Must have been touring with Tool that got Fripp & Co. thinking they needed more of a "modern rock" sound. It's not all bad, but it's a mess. There are a few moments of Frippertronics on here, but in this context they sound weak and New Agey... How 'bout they start working on "Happy With Never Making An Album Again 'Cause We've Totally Lost The Plot"? Just a suggestion. Sorry to be so harsh, but even the biggest Crim/Fripp fans we know were disappointed. RealAudio: http://aquariusrecords.org/audio/kingcrimsonhappy.rm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 00:25:29 -0600 From: CRAIG Subject: Re: Zappa 'quote' >"The Modern day composer Refuses to Die" FZ Just for the books,.......This quote is actually from Frank`s hero, Edgard Varese, not FZ. ~C ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 08:10:14 -0000 From: "Viv O'Connell" Subject: Heavy Construkction tour and KC on DVD 2 unrelated comments: Firstly, Being a late developer, I only got in to King crimson late in their incarnations. From this perspective, I was majorly impressed by the variations of their style over the previous years - I couldn't believe how much the live sets had changed, whereas bands like ELP churned out versions of the same old things ( Pictures ..., and increasingly long versions of Tarkus) . As such I only saw them live once ( being English, KC appearances are a rare treat ) at the Shepherds Bush Empire. I can honestly say musically this was the best concert I have ever heard - the sound was crystal clear and the band were really on form - awe-inspiring! However my addled mind has confused me a bit - I could have sworn that Tony Levin was in the line up to the right of the stage ( Trey Gunn to the left) yet looking at the notes to Heavy Construcktion and the poster of the gig there is no mention of this. Was I hallucinating? The other comment was on DVDs of the band. Deja Vroom was one of the first DVDs I bought and in full DTS sound it is truelly phenomenal - the addition of the vector patrol option which allows you to select a particular musician in the band who then becomes higher in the mix is a great idea - I've not heard it being done since and it works brilliantly. Based on this I seem to recall that DGM mentioned some time ago that they were planning to release a couple of previous videos on DVD - does any one know the details? i.e what concerts, when are they released and will they also be remixed in DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1? End of rambling! Simon O'Connell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 11:41:10 -0000 From: "Tiz @ ProgressForum site" Subject: EVO e-digest of news http://www.geocities.com/progressforum/EVO.html carries the online version of EVO-lutionary music e-digest (compiled by 3 of us in England) - condensed Crimson news is included, along with... Gabriel + Levin performing on UK based television, Nov 1+3 Jan Akkerman band - UK tour, Nov 1st - 5th Peter Hammill and PFM collaboration (DVD/CD + live) King Crimson double-CD "Ladies of the Road" Yes North American tour + Roger Dean exhibition in UK Anglagard - recording studio CD No-man new CD - recording completed, + Henry Fool mp3 Michael Manring / David Friesen / Steve Lawson UK gigs Steve Lawson (21st Century Schizoid Band gigs) - solo CD The Flower Kings - concerts in London + Paris Marillion - new material for a studio CD + gigs supergroup (Vinx, Satriani, Stanley Clarke, Stewart Copeland) Please invite friends into evolutionary music to email subscribe at progress dot freeserve dot co dot uk for their email address to be added to the EVO e-digest mailing list. Or just give them the URL at the top of this post. Tiz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:29:14 -0600 From: "Barbara Spannaus" Subject: Ramblings of a Newbie ETer Howdy from Austin, Texas ya'll! With the news of a new album and tour from the Crims, I have rekindled my affection for the band... I love all of their work from the 60's and 70's and 90's+.. Though I'm not much of a fan of their 80's output.. (But that's no insult to RF & Co.-- the 80's were a blackhole of talent and creativity for everyone, imo). I recently got the Night Watch live album-- which I love. And also the new EP, Happy With What You Have to be Happy With.. Which I have to say, I have mixed feelings about.. Obviously, when criticizing this release-- we must not forget that, yes, it IS just an EP.. Only a sampler-- not a real album.. As the title track says: we need to be happy with what we have to be happy with.. Unfortunately, if the lyrics of the title track are a sign of what's to come-- we DON'T have much to be happy with.. Hopefully that's not the case.. On a lighter note, this song DOES rock hard.. Which I am very happy for.. Eyes Wide Open is good.. As is Potato Pie.. Larks Tongues IV kicks ass-- but I don't really see why it's on this release.. The filler is just that... filler. And Einstein's Relatives is... well... interesting.. Either way, I AM looking forward to the new album from RF and the gang.. I noticed that there's a lot of differed opinions about the existence of the 21st Century Schizoid Band.. Personally, I think it's definitely a great idea..I mean, Robert Fripp isn't going to be playing these songs any time soon.. So why shouldn't someone else? Hell, I'd go see a COVER band if they would put on a 60s-70s-esque Crimson show.. And this is no cover band.. These are the guys that were actually playing this music up on stage in the first place.. They have a right to play their music.. And I think it'd be great to hear some new material from these guys as well!! Speaking of this.. When are the Crims or the Schizoid Band gonna come to AUSTIN???? Are there any rumors about how extensive RF&Co.'s US tour will be?? Okay, ONE last question... Why does everyone hate USA so much?? It's a good show! My only complaint is with the sound quality-- which isn't even THAT bad in the first place... Sorry about the ramblings.. But, if you made it this far, thanks for reading it all.. --Nick Spannaus Austin, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:08:06 -0800 From: "PT" Subject: can anyone give me a straight answer ? does Ladies Of The Road contain any previously "unreleased" material or is it 100% taken from various (previous) collectors club releases, etc ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 02:28:53 -0500 (EST) From: david craig Subject: Re: PolitiKcs & Nuovo Metal > Walk around America and ask people if they know the song Elephant > Talk. My guess is you'd find under 10 percent that would have any > recognition. That's funny. No offense intended, but I think you'd be extremely lucky if a phone poll yielded more than 1/1000 (= 1/10 percent). 10 percent can barely name the President (or whatever you'd like to call it these days), let alone the vice president or - ha - king crimson. David Craig ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1053 *********************************