Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1052 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1052 Sunday, 3 November 2002 Today's Topics: Happy with Level 5 Discipline Era Collector's Club Haiku / Spamku Schizoid Band Re: Happy With Happy Happy? I am!! Elephant Talk haiku Happy With What We All Have To Be Happy With Ladies of the Road=ripoff? Happy with KC. Dis this, dis that... Heavy Construction - Live Concert Video KC/21stCSB Re: Larks IV on Happy etc Tony Levin; from Greater Boston Youth Orchestra circa 1962 to Papa Bear Re: PolitiKcs & Nuovo Metal Stone Age Queens/Deceiver/Whatever/Happy Re: The term "Nuovo" Metal ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:41:55 -0600 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Happy with Level 5 Inclined to chime in on the scattered opinions on the new EP. I did expect nothing. I did receive. 10 listens in (+ or -), I find the experience a bit Adrian heavy. I do like Ade very much, but it seems I'm listening to a 'Mister Music Head' promotional EP not KC. I hope the intention of this short clip was to give us some ideas of what's coming without revealing to much. Sounds like Ade's got a new voice synth, and has maintained his humor. I hear bits of Eleckric in the collage of bits towards the end. This I had the privilege to hear in the Level 5 tour in its early stages, very exiting music. In fact I would argue that the material of the Level 5 EP is far superior. "Balanced", to quote a previous ET poster. The unpredictability and color of a piece like 'Virtuous Circle' is the void KC can fill, that other bands can't. I am not saying I dislike the EP. It is well worth the money. I appreciate the band offering to share a piece of the development stages with its fans. NP: RF String Quintet PS: If you don't have RFSQ, run now as fast as you can and buy it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:42:10 -0500 From: Michael dot Russell at mercerdelta dot com Subject: Discipline Era Collector's Club In reply to David C.'s call for KCCC material from the 1981 tour, I have an electrifying tape of Crim at the Savoy. The sound quality is pretty good and the performance of The Sheltering Sky is so powerful that my spine still tingles after 21 years. I wrote DGM back in '98 as the Club was getting going to ask if they already had an archive tapes of this show, and where to send this one, but did not get a reply. I note, however, that I also suggested the 1VII1974 show and some of the very early things (like "Trees") which have since appeared in versions better than I had on tape. (It's best not to imagine what my "Trees" sounds like on cassette!) How to ascertain if DGM is interested in this tape? Where to send? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:05:01 -0500 From: Jim Bailey Subject: Haiku / Spamku Hello folks, For those concerned about the fake haiku (does it actually refer to them as such, or did people just assume that's what they are?) on "Happy..." here's a suggestion should Adrian want to try his hand at the real (?) thing: http://pemtropics.mit.edu/~jcho/spam/sha.html Just thought it might be helpful. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:39:44 -0500 From: Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com Subject: Schizoid Band I myself have not had the pleasure (yet) of hearing the Schizoid Band - but I am excited that they exist and I hope they continue. So here's my take: There are several older generation musicians who have all agreed at some point or another that some of the best music (if not the best) in which they were involved centered around early King Crimson. So they decided that they would like to get together and play, naturally the music that would be performed would be this music. Why? Because it is music that they performed and/or wrote. It is a common ground between different members, and it is the music that inspired them to get back together. It is also music that, in Robert's words (paraphrased) - is valid music that needs a voice. Robert just stated that he was not the voice. In fact, Robert was the one who suggested two alternate reunions - The original lineup, replacing Fripp with Steve Hackett (if he were interested), or a different variation using members from the 69-74 lineups, although I don't remember the specific lineup that he mentioned (I think it included Robert, Michael, Ian and John Wetton). He had proposed that either of these lineups would focus on the 69-74 material and see what (if anything) developed from there. In fact, he also proposed that the '80s lineup was still viable and could focus on that material, but Bill Bruford wasn't interested. Greg Lake declined the original lineup idea, and at the time the others weren't interested in an alternate lineup. Robert proposed this in addition to these bands focusing on different eras of Crimson, the ProjeKcts and the Double Trio could still be active. Nobody seems to complain when the California Guitar Trio reinterprets Bach or Beethoven. And I am not implying that Crimson is equivalent to Bach or Beethoven (or that it's not). But there are people that want to play the music and people who want to hear the music. And I for one think that great music rises above the performers - if the music of King Crimson can't be performed by other musicians and stand the test of time, then it's not great music. how many people have released a version of 'Walk, Don't Run?' I love to listen to Bill Bruford, but it doesn't mean that King Crimson can't exist without him. I didn't have any problem with his interpretation of 21st Century Schizoid Man, and I don't have any problem with Pat's interpretation of Elephant Talk. Robert has said previously that he would welcome a King Crimson without Robert Fripp. Schizoid Band may be what would have evolved had Fripp left in 1969 (like he offered if it meant Ian and Mike would stay). So enjoy the music (or not). But I have to say, after 'discovering' King Crimson in the mid 80's when it was too late to see them, or even imagine that there would be two Crimsons (and such a variety of spin-offs) to enjoy, just take the ones you like, and leave the ones you don't. And if you don't like any of them, it seems safe to say at this point that there is more to come - we just don't know what or who it will be. And please - release the CD for the rest of us who aren't in the UK for the current tour... And 'Happy with...' rocks! More! More! Randy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:26:10 -0600 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Re: Happy With Happy This is in response to Ian Sharwood, who wrote: "I think I understand now, why it was that Bill Bruford saw no truly great material that he could contribute to, the key reason for his departure." From everything I've read I have never heard that Bruford's departure had anything to do with the material, truly great or otherwise. What I remember it coming down to was that Bruford had the desire to re-explore his roots including going back to completely acoustic drums. At the time Fripp was interested in exploring the use of V drums as well as drum loops and didn't see acoustic drums as part of the "vision" of KC. In hindsight its also possible that Fripp KNEW Bruford wouldn't rejoin under those conditions and used the debate as a way to remove Bruford from the future of Crimson. In reading Crim history its been fairly obvious that Bruford though a great drummer and a fan fave often irritated and stressed Fripp out with his constant improvisations rather than working out a specific parts. Plus, (and this is conjecture really) I don't think that new material would have been worked out until the lineup was solidified. In other words the material would not have been heard by Bruford before he left, its arrangements and working out would have only been by the current members and written with those particular members in mind. It may well be that Bruford has heard KC's music since he left and may well be happy he wasn't involved, but I doubt greatly that the music itself determined whether he left or stayed. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:23:21 -0300 (ART) From: Ronald Miklos Vogel Subject: Happy? I am!! Fresh new music. It has a bit of every(crimson)thing , even soundscapes. Listened again to KCCC 20 Nashville. Great stuff. I am happy. Ronald Vogel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:28:15 -0600 From: CRAIG Subject: Elephant Talk haiku Talking elephant wading, walking through the sea leaves no trail/essence. (8^O) ~C ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:30:38 +0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: Happy With What We All Have To Be Happy With Sorry about the title - just didn't want to be the only one who didn't play on the title to express their feelings about the album. As you can tell, I like this. I'm not sure about the title track's lyrics, but Belew's voice is in great shape. Eyes Wide Open is excellent. I was very surprised. Potato Pie is very well executed. Unlike ProzaKc Blues, which was pretty far from blues, this is actually a blues song (well... as close as King Crimson are every likely to get). Beautiful guitar tone at about 2min30. Larks' Tongues In Aspic (Part IV) rocks hard. As usual. The rest is filler, but is still excellent. The haiku's are great, not so much for the lyrical content but for the space and the harmony. Production is a lot better than ConstruKction of Light as well. A dash of reverb makes all the difference. I bought this from the HMV in Oxford Street, London on import for #13.99. Anyone nearby that doesn't want to wait for next week for this to be released in the UK should head down there. I think it's going to be a lot cheaper than that as standard price though, so it's your decision. I think it was worth it. ~Cameron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:32:46 -0500 From: "Nik Smith" Subject: Ladies of the Road=ripoff? I read what will be included in the Ladies of the Road 2CD release and I am VERY VERY disapointed. They devote 4 CDs to the Wetton-era, 2 CDs to the Greg Lake-era, and just one to Boz, with some solos mashed together for the second CD? Is it just me, or does anyone else feel cheated? I would have rather have, instead of what is included on CD2, either songs that weren't included on the first CD, songs like Peoria and stuff like that, OR if those two weren't possible, then just different versions of the songs that already appeared on CD1. Mashing together a bunch of solos from schizoid man just seems like such a cop-out to me. What about you? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:45:11 -0800 (PST) From: "J.R. Gattiker" Subject: Happy with KC. After reading a few dozen ET's, I'm just amazed. I've spent a lot of my time making KC recordings a part of my self, only to see them being taken so differently by others, it's a really strange feeling. First off, I'm amazed that KC fans don't think TCoL is a fantastic peice of work. To me, it's the most beautiful work they've done (although some are so different it's hard to compare). The title track(s), LTIA, Prozak, frying pan, fraktured, are all incredible. They're both great listen to, and interesting in intellectual ways. KC is change, my theory is people who don't like TCoL were expecting more Thrak, which was a very crude album by comparison. I should say, I'm a "Beat"-nik, that's where I entered the KC scene. I have a soft spot for Red, and I went back to enjoy Court and Starless somewhat, but never really could tolerate the other early stuff. And, I don't really want to, it sounds ugly and there's lots of not ugly stuff to listen to. To me the "old" stuff seems related, like a cousin or a nephew, but not father or brother to the new. In fact, if anyone wants an Islands CD, let met know. I'm amazed to see people compare Peter Gabriel to KC in one post, and then I'm amazed to see people calling KC "the king of metal" in the next. It never even occurred to me that these are the same genre, much less somehow comparable. When I listen to KC, I hear what I think is RF: a precisely ordered foundation, with noise and disorder deliberately used to oppose this almost crystalline structure. Beauty and power. I don't see anything in common with metal but that they both use noise and similar instruments, metal is closer to baroque than KC. Peter Gabriel, well, a fine songwriter and a good frontman FWIW, but appears to me totally reliant on his collaborators for music. That's not KC at all. KC *is* the music, not a video, not a cause, and not a concept or story (not that there's anything wrong with that). Ah, so here we are, I've baited just about everyone by now. Don't take it personally, I'm just standing up to be counted. Who do I compare? Jean-Luc Ponty pioneered the structured and chord-shifting arpeggio from jazz, along with Philip Glass of course. This is central to what I hear in KC (RF). Brian Eno was at least as involved as Fripp in the soundscape concept, which is part of KC, just as F-tronics is important. The use of the sometimes extreme and occasionally tourette-ish noise to attack structure is KC signature and original. The "new" KC is contemporary with talking heads, and I see influence there. One thing I'd like to hear discussed is the relationship between Fripp and CGT. I find CGT captivating to listen to. Clearly, they use Fripp's toolkit, but are they leading, distinct, or only mopping up? Does fripp feel a stabbing pain when his tools are used to remake corny songs? z ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:10:58 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Dis this, dis that... >Hyperbole aside ("best band in the world"????), anyone and everyone has >the right to "dis" the greatness (technical or otherwise) of this or any >other band. It's all a matter of individual taste. In my opinion, while >they are technically proficient, Dream Theater is repetitive and >uninteresting. Does that make you angry too? Too bad pal. Opinions are >like assholes...everybody's got one. (Trivia quiz: who is quoted as >having said that? I'll give you a hint, I think he's a much better & more >interesting drummer than Mike Portnoy.) I agree on the "everybody has an opinion" bit. I personally like this band very much (introduced me into a whole new world of music that included Yes, Rush, and eventually, KC), but I'm not gonna fight over that with you (or anyone). Unfortunately, it is quite often that some bands become everyone's toilet in this newsletter (DT, Yes, and a lot of the other bands which... well, aren't King Crimson), so I understand Guitar86rick's reactions... although I do think he acted impulsively. >Trivia quiz: who is quoted as having said that? PS: I'll have my shot... Was it Uncle Bill? >I think he's a much better & more interesting drummer than Mike Portnoy. Ok. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:46:52 +1100 From: Tony Iremonger Subject: Heavy Construction - Live Concert Video Help! How do I access this video? The password link appears to be dead. Is this something that might now unofficially circulate in VCD format? Tony Iremonger Melbourne, Australia np Heavy Construction (CD Two - audio components) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:07:59 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: KC/21stCSB Although the KC/21stCSB thread is as banal as they come, it has managed to get on my tits. As far as I'm concerned, the 21stCSB has more right to the damn name (NOT THAT THEY'RE USING IT!!!) than the actual "King Crimson" has had from LTIA onward. And they (21stCSB) certainly have every right to play the KC music they helped create. I DON'T SEE THE ISSUE! I really feel KC '72-'74 should have had it's own original name, as should have the '81-'84 KC. '94-present KC's name should have been some kind of "creative" synthesis of these two names (not to put it down, some of my favorite music is from this period - specifically the "Heavy ConstruKction"-? period). AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:05:03 +0100 From: Laurent Masse Subject: Re: Larks IV on Happy etc >I read that this version was recorded at Nashville, does anyone know whether >this is the same version as the one included on the collectors club release? It is definitely the same version. But sounds like its been remixed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 00:19:26 -0800 From: "David C." Subject: Tony Levin; from Greater Boston Youth Orchestra circa 1962 to Papa Bear Does anyone know if Buddy Rich's The Roar of 74 is available on CD? it is listed on Jazz 52nd Street as being re-released in 1998 but have not seen it anywhere. Also is this discography correct in listing a 1962 recording of Tony with The Greater Boston Youth Orchestra? This is an amazing body of work. Wetton list is very extensive also however the amount of recorded efforts appear to be in Tony's favor. http://www.tonylevin.com/tldiscog.htm http://www.johnwetton.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:46:28 -0500 From: "Matthew Dunlop" Subject: Re: PolitiKcs & Nuovo Metal > I find your commentary regarding the Republican Party and their name for > their newsletter ("Elephant Talk") quite ridiculous. After all, the > Elephant is the official symbol for the party in question. In reality, you > merely taking a cheap shot at the Republicans, especially with statements > like "...another example of Republicans sloppily appropriating rock lyrics > in an effort to be "hip." This post prompted me to go find the sightings page (Oh holy sweet..... RF in wax :) First it would seem that the note was sent by a fan, not a site admin. And as far as the comment by that fan that the republicans were simply trying to cash in on a familiar rock name: that's rediculous. Think about it. Walk around America and ask people if they know the song Elephant Talk. My guess is you'd find under 10 percent that would have any recognition. Then think of the kind of politicos in charge of a party newsletter. You think THOSE guys know Crim? No this is simply them referring to their own symbol. > Is there anyone besides me who thinks that the term nuovo/nouveau metal > should not be used to describe KC's music? It's not the metal part that > bugs me. It just sounds too much like Nu Metal, which is something > relatively (if not vastly) different (unless you somehow categorize KC with > bands like Korn & Limp Bozkit). Yes I was a little uneasy about that name also. Of course now it has changed to something almost worse, "The Power to Believe". I have a feeling the "Nu Metal" connection was pointed out to Fripp&Co and they decided to rethink things. Aw well what's really in a name? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:03:20 +0000 From: Mr Tea Subject: Stone Age Queens/Deceiver/Whatever/Happy No. It's not about Quentin Crisp. > From: "Nik Smith" > Subject: Queens of the Stone Age > > If there are people on this bulletin that have no heard Queens of the Stone > Age, I suggest you go out and do so now. They recently performed live on Jools Holland's 'Later' (eclectic BBC TV music programme), and I was thrilled and gobsmacked by the track they played at the top of the show - something from the new 'Songs for the Deaf' album - thrilling guitar noise, gloriously single-minded bass, and impeccable musicianship. I straight-way went hunting for info about the band on the web, and ordered the album from Amazon. While I was there I noticed that the 'Great Deceiver' box set was listed as 'usually shipping within 24 hours'. Are Amazon lying? I guess I'll find out soon enough, as I slapped one on my order. And while I'm here, have any other subscribers heard that 'United States of Whatever' song that's been around on the radio recently? Hardly Crim, but very entertaining. Put me in mind of MX80 Sound. (Anyone remember them?) BTW - It's very galling to read all you US subscribers banging on about the new 'Happy' EP. Here in Blighty, the land of Robert's fathers, it's not out till Nov 4th. Disgraceful. Regards Mr Tea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:41:06 -0500 From: "Chris Holderfield" Subject: Re: The term "Nuovo" Metal I actually, like that term. "nuovo metal" (or 'new metal') in my opinion flows well. And i think they'll live up to that label... chris ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1052 *********************************