Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1048 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1048 Tuesday, 22 October 2002 Today's Topics: Favorite Club Releases Re: Unhappy with what you have to be unhappy with "Happy" EP Martin Pugh Happy with... what is KC? ELP use of Crimson Lyrics and the Nice reunion Re: Einstein's Relatives ELP's Epitath and PFM People bass line help Help on terms, 24 bit and KCCC Re-happy with Happy EP New Dallas area e-group VROOOM = Peter Gunn = Trey Gunn??? Re: Bears Shows at the Mercury Lounge in New York City Re: Ranking KC Studio Albums kontemporary krimson; or: the role of mr. mastelotto Re: Einstein's Relatives Hyde Park, Zoom Club & USA Dream Theater comments Crimson Bebop ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:34:03 -0400 From: "Jack Bross" Subject: Favorite Club Releases I'd be curious to see what other folks thought the best/most interesting club releases have been so far. A reminder, they are individually available now from DGM, so fans who haven't been subscribing should be encouraged to pick up a few a la carte. Here's my top half dozen (disclaimer: I've only heard about half the club releases). 1. Zoom Club '72. This is just an amazing release -- the first public forays by the Larks' line-up. The vocals are poorly recorded, and the Zoom club patrons chat during the quiet bits, but the improvs are incredible. 2. Summit Studios '72. The Islands line-up. In general, I think the club releases from this line-up are a revelation, and Plymouth, Jacksonville and Detroit are all pretty good, too. Personally, I give Summit a slight edge over Plymouth for the honors. 3. Central Park, '74. A great performance by the mid-seventies lineup. Mainz is also good, but I give the edge to Central Park. 4. Marquee Club '69. Lousy sound quality, admittedly, but worth hearing because the '69 lineup is great live. Better selection of songs than Hyde Park (which was a short set). 5. The Roar of P4. This is just a great opportunity to hear P4, which is one of the most interesting and significant projekcts musically, but hadn't had an opportunity for a full hearing until this release. 6. Nashville, 2001. A good State of the Crim address to give us an idea of what the band is doing live these days. -- Jack Bross ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:58:11 -0400 From: "Chris Holderfield" Subject: Re: Unhappy with what you have to be unhappy with "Michael Jackson" wrote: Soooo I went and got the ep and it cost me $15. And I want you to know its NOT worth it. There's only really just 4 songs while the rest are vocals and the last piece is a cut up of stuff. Although the title piece is interesting, the rest is trash. I expected my money's worth and got way less. This is a good sample CD at 5.99, not at 15! And here's why people do file-sharing: because you can hear for yourself before you buy. I'm not even interested in their new album. They already took too much of my money for too little! ........ someone must have really ripped you off, dude....you can find the EP at most places for under 10 bucks....so it probably ISN'T worth $15.........i'm getting my copy this weekend... chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:07:24 -0400 From: "Craig J. Clark" Subject: "Happy" EP At the risk of sounding glib, I'm happy with it. It shows the many different sides of Crimson, all of them good. The title track is superb (shades of "I May Not Have Had Enough of Me, But I've Had Enough of You"), the linking bits do their job and the live version of "Larks' Tongue IV" is killer. Now, would I have paid $15 for it? Well, no. After all, it states very clearly on the back that it's only 33 minutes long. This is known as letting the buyer beware. I remember holding off on "VROOOM" for a good while before it came down a price that I felt it was worth. As for the poster who thinks "Eyes Wide Open" doesn't yet bear the Mark of Crim, remember, this is the "acoustic version." In its next incarnation, it may be more like what you would expect. My only real beef with the disc is the packaging, which seems to have been rushed through production. A number of extra spaces and typos abound (unless there is such a place as "Drum Paraidse"). Somebody needed to recheck that proof before sending it to the printer. P.S. - In ET #1046, "David C." wrote: > Now off the beaten subject I have a question for you all. Was Les > Claypool ever in The Residents? Doubtful. Primus has played some Residents songs from time to time, and the Orbed Ones popped up at the "Tales from the Punchbowl" release party, but Les's bass-playing is so recognizable that I probably would have, well, recognized it. (And I own pretty much everything the Residents have released.) -- Craig J. Clark "I believe -- so strongly -- in mayonnaise." cjclark at earthlink dot net --Elmo Oxygen, http://home.earthlink.net/~cjclark denizen of for the uneasily amused --> http://dada.warped.com Schizopolis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:25:56 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Breis" Subject: Martin Pugh People have been comparing Tool to King Crimson lately. I feel that their latest record, 'Lateralus' seems to be more like the thirty-year-later successor to Steamhammer's 'Speech' album, or a combination of that and the Armageddon album. Does anyone out there have any live recordings of Steamhammer or Armageddon? I need some. There's a Steamhammer poster on the wall in photos of King Crimson backstage at the Zoom Club (Frankfurt 1971). (See how I tied all that in to KC?) By the way, 'Happy...' is quite splendid. I'm happy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:34:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jimmy Bob Subject: Happy with... what is KC? Got the new EP yesterday. I can say that I LOVED IT. HWWYHTBHW is damn good, but I think it's a little too short (of course, it's a "tone probe" edit [whatever that means]) so I'm anxiously waiting for the full version. "Eyes Wide Open" is good the way it is. I can't really imagine it with Adrian on electric guitar. It wouldn't sound the same. "Potato Pie" is a good blues standard. It's much much better than "ProzaKc Blues" as being a genuine blues effort rather than a "mock track" (IMHO) which PKcBls is. LTIA4: OK. I don't see why we need another version of it. Why not include an effort by Bill Munyon & Pat? I bet they could come up with something extraordinary with all those rehearsal tapes (and judging from the not-so hidden track "Einstein's Relatives", there was a lot of other material that could be used). Shoganai: cool little percussion movement. It proves (along with "EWO") that KC still has that gentler side which is necessary. "Einstein's Relatives" made me laugh out loud. It's just that funny. And those last strains of ITCOTCK with the applause, where did that come from? Was that acually played in a live show? over all: Great. A- Can't wait for the Power to Believe. Oh BTW. I think the 21stCSB could be described as an inKcarnation of KC, as the current lineup is an inKcarnation of KC itself. I won't say for sure since I haven't seen them live (they've not come anywhere near where I live). To say that Fripp is essential for KC would be a little... simplistic. It would be like saying KC isn't KC w/o Bruford. King Crimson is not a person or a collection of people, rather, IMHO, it's a thought process. 21CSB is re-exploring an old avenue which KC has long since passed. It's no more a "nostalgia act" than it is a ProjeKct. Their main goal, I believe, is to fully observe and put into being, what King Crimson would have been like had it not been for the demise of the 1969-72 lineups and Fripp's subsequent decision to start KC from scratch. Oh sure, we may say things like KC would not be KC with out Fripp, but then, that would be saying that Pink Floyd wouldn't be Pink Floyd with out Syd Barrett. At one point in time, such a thought would be unthinkable, but, in the future, could become feasible. I'm done with my Crimson philosophy for now. I need some sleep. -jimmybobLW ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:49:00 +0100 From: "Viv O'Connell" Subject: ELP use of Crimson Lyrics and the Nice reunion Re Diderots comments on ELP using the Epitaph lyrics - As far as I know they first started doing this for the long version of Tarkus on the "Ladies and Gentlemen..." Tour - I wasn't able to see ELP in 97, but did see the reformed Nice concert last week at the Royal Festival Hall. Keith Emerson had some other musicians with him for half of the set and they did Tarkus - Instead of the slightly stout ( is that more polite Toby?!) Greg they had an excellent guitarist by the name of Dave Kilminster ( Any relation to Lemmy?) Basically he played the vocal line on the Guitar throughout Tarkus , but then stepped up to the Mike for the Epitaph section. ELP did a version of 21st Century SM for the "Return of the Manticore" Boxset - but in my humble opinion this is truelly awful and best ignored. Cheers for now Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:25:30 -0400 From: "Matthew Dunlop" Subject: Re: Einstein's Relatives > Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:40:05 -0400 > From: "Ryan Tassone" > Subject: Einstein's Relatives > > -"Potato Pie" is a modified blues progression with mostly typical blues > lyrics and improvisation. The references people have made to "Level 5" > should not be interpreted as any actual intention by the band; there is > only a passing resemblance between the two pieces. But this, like every > new song on the EP, is distinctly more sparse and simple than the usual > Crimson fare, and it also bears mentioning that there is no Fripp solo > anywhere on the disc. I was the one who originally expressed a large amount of surprise at the fact that it was a Level 5 blues. However in the time since i have obtained a copy of the show I was at last year in St Pete. Listening to the performance of Level 5 there I remember recognizing the obvious blues format of the song the first time I heard it. Since then i'd only listened to the EP maybe once and hadn't really payed much attention to Level 5 itself. Saying though that they have only a passing resemblance is a mistake. They are very much one in the same. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:01:52 -0400 From: "Greg Wadden" Subject: ELP's Epitath and PFM Regarding ELP performing Epitath as part of Tarkus: They didn't originally, Tarkus was released in 71 and it wasn't until 73-74 that Greg started including the first few lines at the end of Battlefield. You can hear this on "Welcome Back My Friends..." It's a beautiful moment in the show. On another note, I was recently listening to the 4 CD PFM live compilation "A Celebration". The first disc is from a concert in Milan in 1971 and opens with a furious version of 21st Century Schizoid Man. The third song is "Pictures of a City". I always thought that they used Pete Sinfield to write English lyrics for them later on because he worked with ELP at the time and they were signed to Manticore (ELP's label), but apparently they were Crimson fans at heart. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT) From: RS Subject: People bass line help I'm trying to learn the bass part from People but I'm not sure I have it right. Can anyone help me out? Surely someone here knows how to play it. Thanks Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:49:00 -0400 From: "Abel Calvo" Subject: Help on terms, 24 bit and KCCC Hiya, ETers! I just wanted to ask for your help on a couple of issues. On the first place, I wanted to ask you what exactly "coda" and "reprise" means. Another question: ?Can any of you explain in what consists the 24 bit remastering process? One last thing: I've been thinking about buying some of the KCCC releases. ?Any of you care to make any recommendations, soundwise? I'd be grateful for your help. See ya all in a bit! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:40:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Jackson Subject: Re-happy with Happy EP After noticing people liking the Happy EP, I decided to try it again and still did not find anything great about (except the 13.99+tax=$15.00 at warehouse records. It was the only store that had a copy in stock. The gal there that sold me it told me not to tell anybody that they are higher than other stores.Yep, they sure are!). Anyways, I like the Happy song EXCEPT the chorus-way too kiddieish for me. So I shoot the song onto my computer as a wav file, use cooledit96 to take out the 2 sections of chorus, and re-burn the song. It's Excellent! (Ahhh, the way Kcrimson should be!). I'm HAPPY now! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:21:45 -0500 From: "Greg Guillot" Subject: New Dallas area e-group Hey all. A couple of us have just started a new e-group for Robert Fripp/King Crimson enthusiasts in and around Dallas, Texas, called BigD-ET. If you live around here, and would like to join, visit: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/bigd-et/ There are only two of us so far, but we're looking forward to rapid growth. The group is inspired by RF and KC of course, but also by DC-ET, the DC-based e-group for Frippsters and Crimsofiles, which I was a member of before moving to Dallas. Dallas Crimsters unite - hey, we may even get to see Mastelotto's band, if and when they return to Poor David's on lower Greenville. All best, Greg Guillot ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:34:16 -0700 From: Tom Martin Subject: VROOOM = Peter Gunn = Trey Gunn??? So I'm listening to the new gate fold edition of THRAK and it sounds great. Track 1, "VROOOM", at about the 2:25 mark, has a section that sounds like Mancini's "Theme From Peter Gunn". Could this be an inside joke since King Crimson at the time had a Gunn of their own, Trey Gunn? (Still have him, in fact.) I don't think Weezer has any Gunns in their band, so I don't know if there's any significance to their "Hash Pipe" also sounding very similar to "Theme >From Peter Gunn". Since "Hash Pipe" was recorded later than "VROOOM", perhaps Weezer were influenced by King Crimson? Anybody know if that's true? If so, then we would have a case of one band 'stealing' a lick from another who 'stole' their lick from another. Imagine the litigation! So far I haven't heard any references on THRAK, or anywhere else in the Adrian Belew era King Crimson repretoir for that matter, to "The Bare Necessities". (Inside reference to Belew/Baloo the Bear. Sorry, I'm stretching big time here.) - Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:40:41 EDT From: NajiBaji at aol dot com Subject: Re: Bears Shows at the Mercury Lounge in New York City Hi all: The Bears will be back for another blistering set of shows at the Mercury Lounge in NYC on 10/24-25/02. I would like to know if there are any of my ET friends from New Jersey going to those shows. I have a fraKtured Right Elbow, so It is unwise to drive in. If there is anyone going in, I'd like to catch a ride and share expenses, good times. If you saw the last shows at the Mercury Lounge this year, you'll know what I mean. I live in Central Jersey (Exit 8 NJTP), and could probably get to where you are. Please contact me if you are going and have room: Dave Meshowski 1003 Hickory Corner Rd. Hightstown, New Jersey, 08520 (609) 984-6328 E-mail: najibaji at aol dot com or at: Fracktured@adrian belew.net Peace and Paws, dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: Re: Ranking KC Studio Albums Since Great Deceiver and the KCCC issues came out, I hardly ever listen to the studio albums anymore. They barely hint at how powerful this group was live. Anyway here's how I'd rank them: In the Court of the Crimson King Lark's Tongues in Aspic Red Starless and Bible Black In the Wake of Poseidon Islands Lizard Anything that came after these I listen to only because Tony is playing bass. Now here's how I'd rank the live discs this week: Summit Studios 1972 (probably the blackest Crimson ever) USA Central Park 1974 Jacksonville 1972 Great Deceiver Mainz 1974 Epitaph Moles Club 1981 (a better "Red" than the 72-74 group, I think) Marquee 1969 Plymouth Guildhall 1971 Detroit 1971 Earthbound Zoom Club 1972 Beat Club 1972 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:59:47 +0200 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: kontemporary krimson; or: the role of mr. mastelotto good evening hippies, when listening to "The Brondesbury Tapes" and "The Cheerful Insanity..." on several occasions during the last few days, i again appreciated the great joy (and humour and acquired taste) behind these recordings. and again, i recognized that my deepest admiration was directed towards this incredible drumming of mike giles: what a spontaneity, what a lightness, what a brilliance...and my mind began to play and i started to imagine what p@ mastelotto would have done instead, with this material...oops - and immediately i realised how unfair this comparison was, comparing apples and pears... - which immediately forced me to exhume my TCOL-cd, and i just felt disappointed again... and yesterday i stumbled about a short but very carefully written german article about the history of Krimson (fur meine landsleute: http://www.lapsus-gil.de/kcrimson.htm) -entitled: "the cheerful insanity of king crimson" - which animated me to listen again to the companion-album to TCOL: ProjeXct X's "Heaven & Earth" and then, with this album, it all seemed clear for me: the brilliance and talents of mr mastelotto, the still groundbreaking quality and power of the crimson king - and the outstanding role of krimson as a reflex, or commentary, or reflection of contemporary (social/urban) life. as i understand it, in these days it is mainly pat mastelotto's contribution that pushes krimson towards this important role as a mirror of modern life. the "traps and buttons" of pat mastelotto, his and bill munyons editing, splicing and mixing of sounds and structures makes ProjeKct X's "Heaven and Earth" to be the most challenging and rich album of krimson since the 80' for me. All the voices of belew, fripp and gunn perfectly come into everybody's own, melting together to one strong picture of our modern times. Imagine, to quote the abovementioned article, which "mighty and frightening super-album would have been the result of a combination of the best moments of both TCOL and 'Heaven and Earth' " best regards, roderich p.s. does anybody know if mr keeling already tried to "interpret" one of the projekcts' works? IMHO this would be more interesting objects for his "analyses" than "prelude: the song of the gulls", the "taster" for his Krimson-analysis-project. have you ever read his "interpretation"? oh well... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:14:20 -0400 From: "Matthew Dunlop" Subject: Re: Einstein's Relatives Ok I'm going to respond to my own post here. Because I was wrong. Hardly the first time :) > I was the one who originally expressed a large amount of surprise at the > fact that it was a Level 5 blues. However in the time since i have obtained > a copy of the show I was at last year in St Pete. Listening to the > performance of Level 5 there I remember recognizing the obvious blues format > of the song the first time I heard it. Since then i'd only listened to the > EP maybe once and hadn't really payed much attention to Level 5 itself. > Saying though that they have only a passing resemblance is a mistake. They > are very much one in the same. Ok comparing Happy, the Level 5 EP, and the St Pete show all over again I have found my mistake. At St Pete they did Level 5, in the exact form it appears on the EP. However they also did a song that the show notes only call "Crimson Blue" which is basically Potatoe Pie minus vocals. Crimson Blue itself simply cops the Level Five riff, as does Potatoe Pie. I do think that that was meant to be by the Crimsos. Interesting side note, my audience recording of Level Five is far better than their soundboard recording. Odd. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:35:21 -0400 From: "Guertin Pierre" Subject: Hyde Park, Zoom Club & USA I just got the live in Hyde Park cd. At last... Great music, much like on the Epitaph box set, as one would expect. Track #8 is from 1997 and features talk from the original 1969 band reunion. I wish I had a trascript of this because apart from Fripp, I'm not absolutly certain who is saying what. This transcript must be posted on the ET web site, I think, at this page: http://www.elephant-talk.com/releases/hydepark.htm. Zoom Club: another good official bootleg. Better than Beat Club, anyway. The alternate lyrics to Book of Saturdays (aka then as Daily Games) should be posted on the ET web site also, and the lyrics to Zoom as well, perhaps on this page: http://www.elephant-talk.com/releases/zoomclub.htm. USA: I just compared the Schizoid Man performance on this with the one on the track #1 on the cd2 of the Great Deceiver box set. It's from the same show. Seems to me that on the GD, the Eddie Jobson overddubs are not included, but the sound is clearer on the USA remaster. The bonus tracks are magistral. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:46:04 EDT From: Guitar86rick at aol dot com Subject: Dream Theater comments In the Elephant Talk issue #1044, someone made the comment that Dream Theater's masterpiece album, Metropolis Part II: Scenes From A Memory, is trash. They also said to screw Mike Portnoy. This mad me a little angry, when the best band in the world and one of the greatest drummers of all time are being insulted. Mike Portnoy has an incredibly intense style of drumming yet always sounds fresh and creeative. Also, this album rivals Tommy as the greatest rock opera ever. So, no one has the right to dis the technical greatness of this band. P.S. Lizard is a great album Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:56:12 -0600 From: Kya L Morden Subject: Crimson Bebop >I saw "Cowboy Bebop: The Movie" yesterday, and the introductory music >to the movie was very reminiscent of the thumb piano intro to "Larks' I". > >The movie is excellent, so catch it when it hits theaters sometime >next year. I haven't seen the movie yet myself but I have the soundtrack. There's a track on there called "7 Minutes" that sounds like the composer of the soundtrack, Yoko Kanno joined up with ProjeKct Four. It rocks all over the place. If you're curious to hear it, you can check out a streaming real audio version of it at the following url. It's track 10. http://jameswong.com/ykproject/disc/bebop_futureblues/index.html Chibi-Light "When the facts change, I change my mind." -John Maynard Keynes ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1048 *********************************