Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1045 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1045 Saturday, 12 October 2002 Today's Topics: KC w/ RF, Talking Heads (?), & Fairport Convention (??) Re: schizoid band KC at the Library HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY Hidden Track? KC at the library (in Australia) Re: Crimson and Bill Bruford Re: Whither the Tribute/Cover Collection? Plea for Schizoid peace/Happy With Larks Tongues Re: That which is King Crimson EP ON SALE Pointless Musings Largely for My Own Amusement Japanese Level 5? Earthbound remaster; killing saxophone; QFO; 33 years later; Re: new Tlev and spocks beard albums Oh 21CSB Where Art Thou? Have you got be happy? Improv/Progression/Happy Re: 'regressionist desire amongst music fans' Re: The Mahavishnu ... connection? Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With Happy and Hyde ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:23:08 -0500 From: markland dot keener at verizon dot net Subject: KC w/ RF, Talking Heads (?), & Fairport Convention (??) All of this writing about KC being KC w/o RF made me think of the following: 1. In Sid Smith's book, RF suggests to EG Management that he be replaced with Ian MacDonald around Red. EG declines. 2. Tina Weymouth approaches Adrian Belew to ask if would like to replace David Byrne in the Talking Heads. Adrian opts to go w/ KC. 3. One of my favorite bands, Fairport Convention, often had an unstable lineup until the '80's. For a 5 years during the '70's, they had NO original members, but they also released many fine records during that period (excepting Gottle of Geer). qMy point in all this is that I think it is difficult to say if a band lineup is "official" if it doesn't have a particular member, especially if the group has had numerous lineups (like KC). My position: it depends on the band and the circumstances. (How wishy-washy.) I think it would be tough to see the Velvet Underground w/o Lou Reed seeing as he sang and wrote most of the songs (yes, I know it happened) or The Kinks w/o Ray Davies but I think Gong w/o Daveid Allen still made good (but different) music. David NP: The Big Gundown (John Zorn plays the music of Ennio Morricone) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:54:21 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkyD_Sod at webtv dot net Subject: Re: schizoid band The Schizoid Band should have called themselves simply: Crim Kinsmen ;-) mds ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:57:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: KC at the Library Shane mused- Before I buy the new music, you see, I search the local library's catalog to see if they already have it. As you can imagine, they're a little lean on, for example, Trey Gunn recordings. But how can that situation be improved? Only by, either the intervention of a mole -- such as the person who recently stated they were able to influence the library's choices -- or the donations of a good fairy. Anything that, after a year, is still in regular rotation in the car, I'll keep to myself. But I would just as soon be the *last* person who can't find Heavy ConstruKction at the library. Hey, if I ever need those discs again, I know where to find them! I recognize that there are those reading this list who can't afford to purchase a large number of CDs, let alone CDs they don't intend to keep. the mole replied- Hi I am the mole who intervened in my library system, and from my experience, it seems more effective to suggest, multiple times if needed, certain titles that the library doesn't own. Donations are tax deductable, however, the time it takes to make the decision, to enter into the catalog, process, and shelve one lone disc tends to outweigh just putting it for sale in the used book/material section- there have been exceptions but they have been very few. So, fill out those "request for purchase" forms like mad if you want Trey Gunn or CGT or RFQ. the mole. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:48:53 -0400 From: "philip m. quirk" Subject: HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY I just got my copy of Happy... yesterday, and I've listened to it a couple of times, and...I like it, I really like it! The blues tune is a lot of fun, and the 'chorus' joke of Belew's had me smiling on the NYC subway(not an easy feat at times). As for another version of Lark's Tongue, they can put that on every disc- it's a great tune that showcases some phenomenal guitar work. I eagerly await the Power to Believe. P.S. Much thanks to the poster who mentioned Tim Berne's disc Science Friction- if you like the Projeckts material, this is right up your alley. P.S. 2 This may have been mentioned by the same poster, but someone mentioned a store called the Downtown Music Gallery. I had the chance to visit there this past Monday, and I highly recommend a vist in person or a vitual visit. They stock a lot of adventurous music that is not available even in the larger stores such as Tower & J&R. They are well stocked in Krimson & boast a large selection of Soft Machine and the great 'Blood' Ulmer, among others. "How can you think and hit at the same time?" Yogi Berra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:08:13 -0700 From: "Donn" Subject: Hidden Track? Forgive me if this has been covered. But where is the hidden track on the "Happy with what..." EP? Perhaps I am missing because I am playing it on my computer, but I can't find it. BTW, I love the new EP, I know Krim uses pre-full-CD EP's as a "taste of what is to come". If this is a taste, I am ready for the full meal deal! Donn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:24:35 +1000 From: "Keenan, Owen" Subject: KC at the library (in Australia) Shane Carey recently brought up the topic of libraries as a source of KC product. I just thought I'd mention that Newcastle (Australia) city library has not one, but TWO copies of TheGreatDeciever box-set in their collection (I can't remember which branch they're attached to, that's what branch transfers are for). I like that librarian. O! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:37:53 EDT From: IanSharwood at aol dot com Subject: Re: Crimson and Bill Bruford Dear Folk There seems to be a thread running through the last few ET's to the effect that Crimson were not really Crimson until the 1972 Bruford/Wetton rhythm section took over. I couldn't disagree more! I to am not a great fan of Pat's drumming; I feel it is too "toppy and crashy", (not great adjectives from an educated musician, but I think appropriate). I preferred his sound on the Sylvian Fripp albums. Bill Bruford is probably the best Rock drummer in the world. The fact is he will not return to Rock; he said so publicly at a concert I attended in Brighton recently. He has returned to his greatest love, Jazz. As far as I am concerned all the incarnations are King Crimson. I bought In the Court after seeing the Boz/Mel/Wallace/Fripp line up in 1971 and then bought Islands. I love both, they are both King Crimson. There are periods I like better than others. Interestingly enough the 1981 line-up is my least favourite but It is still King Crimson. To say that a particular line-up is not King Crimson is simply another way of saying, "I didn't like that line up". Why not simply be honest and say so! Likes and dislikes are simply a matter of personal preference. Do we have to dress them up by saying something like "I don't believe King Crimson really started until....." Ian Sharwood ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:33:52 -0400 From: "John MacNeill" Subject: Re: Whither the Tribute/Cover Collection? I was a participant in the mid-90's attempt at a tribute album. The person who was organizing the project couldn't follow through for some reason or another and thus it fell apart. Some completed tracks, I believe, ended up on the Elephant Tape website. S.P., at the time we did an arrangement of "Indoor Games" which you can now find at http://www.noisynoise.com/johnmacneill/index.html. I'd be more than happy to lend this track to the tribute if it were to rematerialize! WARNING: Shameless plug...by the way, KC and ProjeKct-inspired music can be found at http://www.noisynoise.com/incandescentsky/index.html (had to slip that in :^D) Enjoy, John MacNeill Sound Organizer www.noisynoise.com > Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:21:33 +0100 > From: "S.P. Goodman" > Subject: Whither the Tribute/Cover Collection? > > Hi Folks, > > Some years ago there was an effort to do a collection of > covers of KC songs > by several of us on the list. I myself was late with it all > enough to drop > out, and shortly that, through no influence of mine > whatsoever, the project > seems to have just faded out of view. > > Has anyone taken this up - or was the project ever finished? > I'm still > interested in doing my arrangement of "Indoor Games". :) > > S.P. Goodman > EarthLight Productions > * > http://www.earthlight.net/Gallery - Cartoons and Illustrations! > http://www.earthlight.net/HiddenTrack - Cartoons via Medialine! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:22:38 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: Plea for Schizoid peace/Happy With Larks Tongues Please, let the 'Are the 21CSB really KC?' and 'Are the 21CSB any good?' threads die, and let's just get on with sharing our appreciation of great music. There is ZERO acrimony between the 21CSB and KC, and the only way there ever will be is if we fans create it, through our destructive obsessiveness. I am just grateful to live in a world where both bands exist, and I am grateful to have seen both of them in concert over the past couple of years. Somebody on ET drew a parallel between 21SCB/KC and Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe/Yes. Certainly, there's a parallel there - but let's hope that the parallel ends now. ABWH made only one good album (I know some people don't like it, but I do), before their management folded them back into Yes to create a supergoup for the fanboys. As a result, ABWH's potential went unfulfilled. Bill Bruford explains this very well, in the chapter on ABWH/Union in Chris Welch's Yes biography 'Close to the Edge'. Oh, sure, it was fun for the eight of them to play as a nostalgia megagroup. But the situation was fraught with tension, and it militated against the creation of good new music. On the hodgepodge album Union, only the YesWest songs and the Bruford/Levin duet really come off well (a fact that Bruford graciously acknowledges in the Welch book). Sorry, but to these ears, even the fanboy fantasy of 'What if the 21SCB opened for KC?' grates a little. Sure, in the unlikely event that such a thing happened spontaneously, then fine. But with Yes, the contrived 'union' of the two bands was arguably an unfortunate and destructive thing. At the Canterbury Fayre, where I saw the 21CSB's debut performance, I also saw the ugly spectacle of Nik Turner's Space Ritual - a band made up of ex-members of Hawkwind - spending a good part of their set appealing to the audience for money, to fund their legal battle for the Hawkwind trademark with the band that currently owns it. Similarly ugly battles have taken place in the past between ex-members of the Sisters of Mercy (The Sisterhood vs The Mission), rival versions of Funkadelic (with and without George Clinton), and rival versions of 40s vocal harmony legends the Ink Spots. What I'm getting at here is that pitching the integrity of a band against the integrity of a related band fetishises the form and undermines the content - the music. If you must analogise the 21CSB/KC to somebody, then it should be Fish and Marillion. Since Fish split from Marillion, both he and the band have continued to play the old repertoire, but both he and the band have developed radically divergent new repertoire. Long live both of them. The 21CSB are doing a wonderful thing, as it happens, in giving new life to an existing repertoire. And it's not just the well-known classics they're playing - material from the band members' solo and side projects sounds great too, and is hopefully finding a new audience. To be sure, I hope that the 21CSB composes new material. But even if they don't, I'm still grateful for their existence. I've been listening to their 'Official Bootleg: Volume One' album for a while now, and it really is quite brilliant. Ears are fickle, but at the moment, these are my favourite versions of many of these KC songs. Anyway, as for that other band we all like - what are they called again? oh yeah, KING CRIMSON - I can't wait to get my hands on 'Happy With What You Have to be Happy With'. For a while, I was actually considering NOT buying the new EP, and just waiting for 'The Power to Believe' so that it could surprise me. (Yes folks, I haven't heard ANY of the new material yet - not even 'Level 5'.) But what's changed my mind is the inclusion of LTiA4 on the new EP. While I absolutely love this tune, I'm afraid that the lyrics on the TCoL version never did it for me. This new version looks as though it may be my 'definitive' one. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:47:01 -0400 From: bruce higgins Subject: Re: That which is King Crimson First, I have to confess that my original post wasn't entirely coherent, mixing a rant about KCCC12 with a whimsical observation about the paradoxes of the band and its fan base, and not really completing either thought. It's just that KCCC12 really pissed me off as a terrible product and I felt the need to express frustration with DGM and petulance about having to wait even longer for KCCC 21 which I have been eagerly anticipating. >From: "DiMaso, Phil (Elk)" responded, in part, to my statement: > In my neck of the woods, 'Crimson' didn't start until Bruford > >joined the band. And it didn't really gel until Discipline'. > >I'd be very interested to hear what you think about a KC without BB being >as great of a loss as a KC without Fripp. I don't know if I think of it as a 'loss', just a side effect of the band's continuing evolution. Bruford put in his time with KC, laid down some awesome beats, and moved on. While I *love* his playing with the band, I think it has been energizing for KC to have Pat doing his 'Beast, Beast' thing back in the engine room. It was really something to watch him thrash away last winter, and I look forward to the next tour. While, IMO, the 80's Crimso was simply a cut above, the current aggregation is a vital, utterly legitimate edition of KC. One of the things I most respect about the RHVL is his insistance on looking forward and trying to grow. In the best of all possible worlds, we would have both the Double Duo and B.L.U.E. recording and touring on a regular basis. >"Scott Steele" responded to my statement: > >The adulation that >ITCOTCK enjoys completly perplexes me. > >This is usually due to a lack of perspective. If you were to ask Bruford >when Crimson jelled, he'd tell you that it jelled during its residency at >the Marquee in 1969, before the first record was even made. By any chance >are you less than 45 years old? Do you have much of a concept as to the >other bands that were popular in 1969, and the style of music that they >were playing at the time? Think about this - King Crimson's peers were >probably the Moody Blues and Procol Harum. That's as close as anyone could >get to Crimson in 1969 - and that's not very close. On the one hand, Scott makes a valid point about judging work in the context of it's time. I was, for instance, really stunned by the Beatles Video Anthology a few years back. For me, the Beatles' music had long ago been beaten into the ground by massive media oversaturation. But to hear it back-to- back with what their contemporaries were doing was eye/ear opening to say the least. I am a year or two short of 45 years old, but I have a pretty fair knowledge of what was happening in 1969. I can imagine that people who'd been listening to the hippy dippy nonsense being played on the radio back then may have had their pearly auricles pinned back by 21stCSM. Fifteen years later, I sure got my new-wave/post-disco/Deadhead skullcap lifted and stuffed full of larks toungues and aspic by the 1984 Crimso on one indelible night on The Pier. I also give some creedence to the opinion of Mr. Fripp (whom I concede may have a clearer view about That Which Is Crimson than I) when he says that the '69 Crimso did magical things. But in the end, things have to stand on their own merits. Some music ages well, some does not. To my ears, a biased product of their own evolution in their own time, the unearned pomposity of the '69 Crimso, and the fritterings and blattings of the 'Islands', 'ITWOP' and 'Lizard' groups are virtually unlistenable, save for the occasional seething Fripp solo. L. Bruce Higgins/55 Brown Road/Ithaca, NY 14850 lbh2 at cornell dot edu/ph:607-255-1813 fx:607-255-1797 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:18:35 -0700 From: "Eric Heinitz" Subject: EP ON SALE I'll bet more than a few ET readers may be within range of a Tower Tecords store. The outlet near me (Dublin, California) has a whole stack of "Happy To Be Happy" for $7.99 through October 22nd. Toodles, y'all ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:03:35 -0400 From: "josh chasin" Subject: Pointless Musings Largely for My Own Amusement Haven't posted here in a while, but some random musings based on ET # 1044 and the contents therein > From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" > I personally don't see any serious connection or similarity between them, > as I think both styles are rather different. For instance, McLaughlin's > swift loud arpeggios and furious guitar riffs are far different from RF's > ambiental soundscapes. Even improvisation has a different role on them, as > MO's music is properly described as "jazz fusion" (although sometimes > closer to rock). I mean, guitar has a different function on each of > them. Of course, they both are excellent players and have a deep knowledge > of the instrument's harmonic possibilities (but on their own style). The thing to remember in looking for Mahavishnu influences in Crim-- or perhaps more aptly, for similarity of influences in the two bands-- is that you should look at the music made during the time that they were contemporaries. I submit that the music on The Great Deceiver set and the music on Mahavishnu's live release of the same era (not to mention Miles Davis's Pangea and Agharta) are in a lot of ways very much of a piece. Certainly 80's and beyond Crim has veered away from any real sylistic similarities, but at that particular juncture in time, I think they were very much in a similar place. > From: Sandy Starr > Improvisation is a legitimate method of composition. King Crimson > understands this, and used the ProjeKcts as 'research and development' for > The ConstruKction of Light. Andrew Keeling understands this, which is why > he is working on a version of Trio for orchestra. Frank Zappa understood > this best of all, and did wacky things like recording an improvised guitar > solo, transcribing it, getting a horn section to play it, and doing another > improvised guitar solo over the top of it! I'm truncating a fine analysis here, but wish to notte that artists as diverse ad the Police and the Allman Brothers have used live improvisation to develop what later became reportoire songs. Regarding the latter, note that at about the 11-minute mark of the "Whipping Post" on the Fillmore East live set, the theme from "Les Brers in A minor" emerges... later developed into a full-on and recorrded piece. > firing troll #2... ...since toby has dead-threadified the cute females > who dig kc stories, may i invite the sharing of bemusing anecdotes of kc > fans (of either gender) as anal retentive exemplars. I know some damn ugly chicks who dig Crim; is that likewise off limits? [ Yep. --Toby ] > From: "Phillip Ciskowski" On the 21st Century > Schizoid Band, I believe Robert Fripp once said he would applaud such a > band, and would stand in the front row and request all the old songs. One can only hope he'd have the common decency to shut up during the songs, and to leave his camera at home. Cheers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:26:24 +0200 From: Laurent Masse Subject: Japanese Level 5? A very strange item indeed: http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=206867 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:11:29 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Earthbound remaster; killing saxophone; QFO; 33 years later >I finally got my copy of Earthbound. I don't think I ever listened to my old vinyl copy more than twice due to the recording quality. What a difference. Groon rocks. Wonderful news. Thanks for passing this on. >What would happen if Fripp where to jam with say, Peter Brotzman, or more obviously, old Jamie Muir compatriot, Evan Parker? I would love to hear either of these monstrous players sit in with the current version of King Crimson. I was thinking perhaps Bill Janssen or Mats Gustafsson. There is a wonderful world of gnarly saxophone players that would be great on a Crimson CD. >[ "Kindly" F*cking off, is an activity new to me --Toby ] May I suggest QFO which stands for Quality F*cking Off. >all I can say is I can't believe how fortunate I am to be hearing all this 33 years after the whole thing got started. It's all good, and I'd be glad to hear it under any name. I put mine in a plain brown wrapper so no one knows exactly how cool I am. >when KC goes on the road in 2003, who do you think the best opening act would be? My vote: 21st CSB - perfect! Then everyone can have their cake and eat it, too. I sure hope I happen to be at the show when the 2 bands decide to all play together during the encore just for fun... Just some Cat-Food for thought.... What an irresistable idea - they could meet in the middle and play something from the 1973/1974 band. Great Deceiver maybe. >I'd be very interested to hear what you think about a KC without BB being as great of a loss as a KC without Fripp. Stay young in mind, and you'll remain young in spirit. I guess I think that the band can survive the loss of either, if it wants to. - S. np: One Shot scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:48:55 -0400 From: ernest scribner Subject: Re: new Tlev and spocks beard albums >This brings me to my next point which is the new Spocks Beard >Album. I really dont like it at all, this might not be the most educated >judgement on the album since I've only kind of listened to it twice, but >thats only because I cant stand most of it. I love older SB like V, but the >50 extra minutes of Neal Morse ballads with barley anything backing him up >on Snow is too much for me. It seems like its just filler so they could >make a 2 disc concept album to compete with the new Dream Theater album, >which I also really dont like(screw mike portnoy and his stupid leatard). I >was wondering if anyone else shares this opinion about the current state of >prog being almost dead. I dislike the new Spock's Beard album too, but for different reason: I am an atheist. Neal Morse plastered the album with x-tian propoganda that I find offensive. There have always been slight references to x-tian ideas in their previous CDs, but not so 'in your face'. I just can't listen to it. And I was really looking forward to the next 'great concept album'. I won't buy another Spock's Beard album without reading the words first. Similarly, I'm hoping I can still listen to the Flower Kings after their upcoming CD comes out. On the upside, the new Porcupine Tree 'In Absentia' is fantastic.....and progressive. I little louder than their previous CD but interesting all the way through: provocative lyrics, complicated music that isn't predictable. ernst ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:52:15 -0600 From: bwilmot at netzero dot net Subject: Oh 21CSB Where Art Thou? I seem to have fallen behind the times. If someone cares to fill me in send it to hocow at aol dot com. Can the Schizoid Band cd be purchased other than at their gigs? I've been searching the usual haunts (DGM Amazon etc.) with no luck but I get the impression from ET posts that there is general availability somewhere. To blindly (as I have not heard them) put in my two cents worth on the debate over the 21's status versus Crim I would have to say that a band comprised of so many ex members obviously has the right to tap the KC legacy. Limiting themselves to the oldies does relegate their status to at best a nostalgia act and at worst a tribute band. I would love to see this band actually work on their own material. We would have the best of both worlds with the current Crimson exploring their new directions and 21CSB working the rock band with horns area Crimson abandoned. I have often wished for more of this type of material but I would never have wanted it at the expense of Lark's/Discipline/Thrak. I don't know of any band more worthy to travel the fork that Fripp passed on when he started the Bruford/Wetton/Cross/Muir band. I sincerely hope they will pick up the mantle. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:32:57 +0100 From: Paul Timms Subject: Have you got be happy? "Lurk's tongue in cheekside" wrote: >firing troll #1... >...i can't believe i'm the first person to post to ET the anal retentive >complaint that the new kc release, Happy With What You Have To Be Happy >With, should be corrected, for grammar's sake, to Happy With What You Have >With Which To Be Happy. Not necessarily. It depends how you read the sentence. You're taking "have" as meaning "own" whereas it could be "have to" as in "must". The whole meaning would be "Happy with what you are required to be happy with". This sounds like you are generally unhappy but you are forced to be happy about certain things. Has anyone else read it this way or is it just me being weird? See ya. P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:35:13 -0700 From: Brian Mafi Subject: Improv/Progression/Happy Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy... Sandy Starr sez: "In response to Vince's and Art's comments on the futility (or otherwise) of recreating improvisations, I would like to point out that doing this makes perfect sense. Improvisation is a legitimate method of composition. King Crimson understands this, and used the ProjeKcts as 'research and development' for The ConstruKction of Light." As I think I started this with my Crimcoverband post to "recreate some improvs", I'd like to chime in. Another poster had mentioned that some improvs would be conducive to recreation, due to them being more structured than others. I agree... and Sandy is certainly correct in Crim's use of improvs for "song farming". My original statement: "I'm game to recreate some of the cooler improvs; Asbury Park, S&BB, hell, take the the Mincer and expand on it. Run it into Talking Drum. I'm VERY partial to Voyage To The Center Of The Cosmos...killer bass solo at the end!" The Crim improvs at that time tended to be a single chord vamp with variations; of course, not all are. Trio is rather amazing, as it cycles through chord changes, and Wetton's arpeggations are stunningly intuitive. Now, I was talking about taking the MAIN FORM of the improv, keeping some of the runs,lines intact, as to keep a reference to the original, but would still inject the players style, feel to the piece. Some of the improvs would be do-able, some wouldn't. As I've had no real contact from anyone game to try this.."it's all talk". And now, for something completely different. Michael Stack sez: "I personally dislike this movement-- I prefer evolution of bands. I have trouble with commercial music because most successful commercial bands do not evolve. This isn't to say that this is bad, but it's not what I prefer. I'd rather a band that changes, a band that evolves. My favorite acts evolved styles over the years, and never looked back. KC falls into this category, even if there is a history and a self-referential nature to the music. 21CSB is a look back." I gotta say, the music biz is responsible for the lack of progression of many bands. KC flies in the face of standard musicbiz practice (hence Robert's disdain for such institutions). A band like AC/DC and the Ramones are a dream for the labels: establish a style, and STICK TO IT! No disrespect intended to those 2 bands...it's just so much easier for the labels to promote what they know worked before. KC is a special bird; I'm sure if they stuck to a sound, it would have reaped more monetary rewards for the band, but at what cost? The non-creation of some stunning sound that still keeps us talking... My Take on "Happy To..." I LIKE IT! Yeah, wish there was more there than 3 tunes and some segue haiku (BTW, whoever commented on the influence of Tool on the segue concept...YOU WIN! I agree completely). Interesting take on Potato Pie in using the Level V riff in a bluesy fashion! Does that mean that we won't get a full blown studio treatment of Level V? Time will tell, Crim won't! Oh, and I recently got KCCC#19 (Nashville '01) MUCH funkier Level V there than the Level V CD, Pat's drum part is FUNKYASSBEAST!BEAST! "Happy" is a serious ass kicking rocker! All the "I hate Pat's electric kit sound" people should eat their words in a public forum upon hearing his full bodied tone (I think he's mixing acoustic/electric now). Balls, Baby! "Ton Probe Edit"...hmmm. Sounds like we get a longer version with the album. Hey Ade, keep the current lyrics! Piss off the people crying for your head on a pike! I wanna go around singing "SO I GOTTA WRITE A CHORUS!!!! SO WE'RE GONNA NEED A CHORUS!!!!" "Eyes Wide Open", well , those clamoring for the "sensitive Ade ballad to balance the heavy stuff"...there ya go. A pretty li'l thing it is. The notation of "acoustic version" is interesting. Do we get an "electric version" with the album next year? So many ponderables... Peace, Love, Bobby Sherman, Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:15:40 -0400 From: "Steve Gibson" Subject: Re: 'regressionist desire amongst music fans' Yikes! What would my CD collection be worth to me if I never wanted to hear any of the "old stuff"? For that matter, why bother actually buying any CD? After 3 or 4 months, this stuff gets regressive... Maybe that's why MP3s took off -- everyone only wants the new stuff! This geezer remembers that there have ALWAYS been oldies. And when I was young, last year's stuff was old! But "last year" then was 1968, and no right thinking teen would ever have found something tasty in shudder, 30 year-old music. What would that have been, a 78 of "Buffalo Gals Won't You Come Out Tonight"? (Apologies to Jimmy Stewart in 'It's A Wonderful Life')... How could anything from then compare to 1969's Led Zepplin I, or KC ITCOCK, or the Beatles' Abbey Road, or??? Of course, that meant I had to grow up to actually listen to the "regressive" music of Charlie Parker or Billy Strayhorn. And heck, the only way I'm ever going to hear anything played live that Stevie Ray Vaughn performed is to go listen to some "regressive" tribute band... I'm not knocking the "idea" that the new stuff is better stuff, and that the old stuff will never be performed as well now as it was then. I'm just saying, it's a conceit to think that music is like fish and it goes "off" after a while, better buried in the stack of AOL CDs instead of reimagined anew by a new band -- even if some of the "survivors" tag along for the ride... Just my 2c... BTW -- I love the re-imaginings of Steve Hackett and company on "The Tokyo Tapes" Back to my lurking... sg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:21:04 -0400 From: David Beardsley Subject: Re: The Mahavishnu ... connection? "Marcelo Rodriguez" writes: > > Hi everybody, > > In recent posts I've seen people talking abt the influence of John > McLaughlin's MO on KC's music. > > I personally don't see any serious connection or similarity between them, > as I think both styles are rather different. For instance, McLaughlin's > swift loud arpeggios and furious guitar riffs are far different from RF's > ambiental soundscapes. Fripp does a hell of a lot more than his Soundscapes. Both of these guys can play fast, use odd time signatures and play unusual scales (othere then the major/minor diatonic scale). Fripp and JMc have a lot in common, even if one is a Prog Rocker and the other is a Jazz musican. BTW: at that time (early 1970's) fusion was generally thought to be a fusion of Jazz and Rock. Mahavishnu threw in the spice of Indian Classical music. >Even improvisation has a different role on them, as > MO's music is properly described as "jazz fusion" (although sometimes > closer to rock). When I was a teenager (23 yeaars ago), I thought Starless and Bible Black was jazz! * David Beardsley * http://biink.com * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:30:11 -0400 From: David Beardsley Subject: Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With I understand why KC decided to release this EP. The lyrics are very funny! I think I got them all, check it out: Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With And when I have some words, this is the way I sing. Through a distortion box, To make the moment sing. Yeah!!! Then. I'm gonna have to write a chorus, We're gonna need to have a chorus, And this would seem to be as good as any other place to sing it until I'm blue in the face. Yes. We're gonna need to have a chorus, I'm gonna have to write a chorus, And this would seem to be as good as any other place to sing it until I'm blue in the face. Happy with what you have to be happy with You have to be happy with what you have, to be happy with what you have. Happy with what you have to be happy with You have to be happy with what you have, to be happy with what you have. You have to be happy with what you have to be happy with. And for a second verse, of terse economy, I wrote another part Of ambiguity. Yeah! Then. I'm gonna have to write a chorus, We're gonna need to have a chorus, And this would seem to be as good as any other place to sing it until I'm blue in the face. Yes. We're gonna need to have a chorus, I'm gonna have to write a chorus, And this would seem to be as good as any other place to sing it until I'm blue in the face. [chorus] [Belew gtr solo] Hey! I guess I'll repeat the chorus, We're gonna repeat the chorus. I guess I'll repeat the chorus, We're gonna repeat the chorus. And. I guess I'll repeat the chorus, We're gonna repeat the chorus. I guess I'll repeat the chorus, We're gonna repeat the chorus. [chorus] * David Beardsley * http://biink.com * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:42:34 -0400 From: "Jack Bross" Subject: Happy and Hyde My 2 cents on a couple of recent Crim releases: CC12: Live in Hyde Park We've all heard the story behind this concert -- KC opens for the Rolling Stones, who were playing their first concert with Mick Taylor. Hundreds of thousands of people turned out on a summer's day in London and got their collective mind blown by a concentrated blast of raw Crim. Oft-repeated story, but hard to find documentary evidence until now. Sonic Quality: Very poor, but not unlistenably bad. Periodically, something seems to come along and chew on the tape deck's microphone, and the sax tends to get lost in the mix. Historic Value: Big. Serious '69 Crim enthusiasts should pretty much buy this on historic value alone, but I realize not everyone is into the history aspect. Musical Value: Very good, but very similar to material on Epitaph and CC1: Marquee Club. Michael Giles earns the MVP award for some amazing drumming. There's some remarkably weird (and occasionally silly) improvisation, and particularly fine versions of Epitaph and Mars. Not the best live '69 material available, overall, but there's so little too choose from that many will want to have it all. Bonus Tracks: 15 minutes of the original band members chatting: sort of entertaining, but nothing I want to listen to repeatedly. "Instrumental Version" of 21CSM: This is really just a sort of mock-up of the instrumental parts, with faux solos and gaping holes where the vocals are supposed to go. Mild interest as a historic document of the ITCOTCK album in progress, and an opportunity to do Schizoid Karaoke, but basically not worth listening to. Overall: If you don't have Epitaph or CC1, start with one of those. If you've got those releases, and want more of the same, this is an interesting release. Also recommended to the Crim History buff who just can't resist. -- Happy with what you have to be happy with: I like the title track, which has metal-ish moments (Crim goes Metallica) alongside its oddly cheerful little refrain (in 11). "Mie Gakure" is a lovely little soundscape. "Eyes Wide Open" is a good song, and a great opportunity to hear some acoustic work from RF. "Shoganai" is an oriental-sounding percussion thing, and sounds a little like the stuff John Cage and Lou Harrison started doing back in the 40's. Potato Pie is a blues based on Level 5. Shrug. Not bad for what it is, but not necessarily a good idea. The LTIA4 sounds to me like the same performance as on CC19:Nashville, 2001. They've remixed it a little or something, though, giving it added presense and punch. It's still a smoking version of the song, and I prefer the way they do the coda to the version on TCOL (here, it's sans lyrics). The EP closes with entertaining little fragments from the sessions ("Einstein's Relatives). Overall: I enjoyed this little EP, and KC seems to be alive and well and having a good time playing together. The group seems to be veering between extremes of delicacy and destruction lately, but they do both very well. -- Jack Bross ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1045 *********************************