Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1044 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1044 Thursday, 10 October 2002 Today's Topics: The Mahavishnu ... connection? About moonchild Recreating improvs makes perfect sense! Fwd: Re: 'progressive' , why not?/New Claypool/DOORS "Quantity has a quality all its own" Earthbound with horns HAPPY WITH... as churchill sed, this is the sort of english... Ashbory Bass - Haiku filler 21st Century Schizoid King Whither the Tribute/Cover Collection? New releases/21CSB schizoid band Crimsonian event That which is Crimson In my neck of the woods; maybe Cross Wetton and Bruford new Tlev and spocks beard albums Schizoid band- a suggested paradigm The Voice as instrument, King Crimson and the Blues Thoughts on the Schizoid chat ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:49:23 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: The Mahavishnu ... connection? Hi everybody, In recent posts I've seen people talking abt the influence of John McLaughlin's MO on KC's music. I personally don't see any serious connection or similarity between them, as I think both styles are rather different. For instance, McLaughlin's swift loud arpeggios and furious guitar riffs are far different from RF's ambiental soundscapes. Even improvisation has a different role on them, as MO's music is properly described as "jazz fusion" (although sometimes closer to rock). I mean, guitar has a different function on each of them. Of course, they both are excellent players and have a deep knowledge of the instrument's harmonic possibilities (but on their own style). On the other hand, I do find some similarities when I listen to Terje Rypdal's or some Bill Frisell's recordings, particularly when they use their guitars to create "sound blankets" to support the groups' jazzy improvisation, mainly when playing "new cool" jazz (for example, take albums like Rypdal/Vitous/DeJohnette) I don't know if any ET fan would agree on that... Best wishes, Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:57:30 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: About moonchild Hi all, I have been seeing several messages about KC's songs people dislike, or at least don't like too much, and one of the tracks everybody mentions is "Moonchild", especially the last instrumental part of it. In this respect, I strongly disagree with those opinions, as I think that the whole song is beautiful, and (at the same time) ethereal, deep and introspective. We should not disregard the instrumental part, as it fits perfectly with the first, melodical part, and even the lyrics. In my opinion, lyrics are incredibly beautiful, and also very suggestive... I could say the word "suggestive" applies to all the song, as it makes me think of a journey through a magical dream, with colourful landscapes, as if I took part in a children's book as a character, but in a way that reminds me those Syd Barrett's songs, (you know what I mean, ah?). Cheers, Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:32:04 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: Recreating improvs makes perfect sense! In response to Vince's and Art's comments on the futility (or otherwise) of recreating improvisations, I would like to point out that doing this makes perfect sense. Improvisation is a legitimate method of composition. King Crimson understands this, and used the ProjeKcts as 'research and development' for The ConstruKction of Light. Andrew Keeling understands this, which is why he is working on a version of Trio for orchestra. Frank Zappa understood this best of all, and did wacky things like recording an improvised guitar solo, transcribing it, getting a horn section to play it, and doing another improvised guitar solo over the top of it! The idea of a piece of music that is 100% 'improvised', or one that is 100% 'composed', is a myth that derives from the Western classical tradition of musical notation. In truth, all 'composition' emerges to some extent from tentative, spontaneous exploration, and all 'improvisation' is informed by a musician's experience and musical memory-bank. The history of music is a great conversation, between individuals and between cultures - a conversation through which musical influence is transmitted. The invention of recording technology opened this conversation up to the world. Recreating recorded improvisations is just one of the many ways to have a good conversation. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 16:43:30 +0000 From: "Spear man" Subject: Fwd: Re: 'progressive' , why not?/New Claypool/DOORS >Bela Fleck also performes on the CD/DVD... Bela Fleck and the Flecktones >are described as "progressive bluegrass", so that is the only way this >relates to this newsletter in anyway well you could just mention that Bela's bassist Victor Wooten is the best in the world and I'm certain you'd get a response or two on this list ;) As for Frog brigade's new one--'purple onion'. It's gonna either take several plays like KCs Lizard or it's largely unaccessable--it's less 'pop' than Les's Oysterhead supergroup's disc the Grand Pecking Order. I think part of the problem with Purple Onion is that the line-up of musicians changed drastically from the Live Frogs discs--specifically the loss of the 'Rat Dog' musicians (read drummer and keyboardist)and the addition of a vibes player. I was disappointed by the new unit when I saw 'em back in april, but I think it may have more to do with the venue--the coconut grove in santa cruz isn't a real friendly venue for a rock show--especially when compared with the defunct Palookaville. But I gotta commend the Oysterhead project for, if doing nothing else (it did more than that tho'), getting Stewart Copeland in front of rock audiences again. It'll be good to see where he goes with the newly reformed DOORS.... --spearman np PRIMUS--Intruder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:14:31 -0400 From: "Richard G. Bunker, Jr." Subject: "Quantity has a quality all its own" A quick observation: I received Happy Etc. and I am quite happy with it. I copy CDs I have purchased onto my iPod for portable listening. After doing so, on a whim I sorted my modest collection by album length. I think those who are certain to complain about the length of Happy Etc. will be interested to note it is (lengthwise) in some pretty good company: "A Hard Day's Night", 30:24 "happy with what you have to be happy with", 34:33 "Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo!", 34:40 "Revolver", 34:52 "Let It Be", 35:04 "Beat", 35:19 "Rubber Soul", 35:41 Just some food for thought. Yours, Rick. "Kachestvo imeet svoyo kolichestvo" -- Stalin. -- Rick Bunker rick at bunker dot com +1-267-246-7333 (voice) +1-267-200-0310 (fax) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:24:32 -0400 From: "Beth El" Subject: Earthbound with horns I finally got my copy of Earthbound. I don't think I ever listened to my old vinyl copy more than twice due to the recording quality. What a difference. Groon rocks. Contrary to a lot of reviews I've seen, I loved Boz's work. I recall reading Fripp saying Boz is the only Crimson vocalist that really could (or did) scat and I really appreciate it, hearing the little bit anyway that was caught from the two shows that made up the recording. He's sort of bounced around by the music, having fun, even if it was a total goof. There's a spirit of the times that comes through, or a spirit that I like to think was from those times, back when I was 5 or 6 years old. I've had the pleasure of hearing Adrian having fun with the vocals too, but it's completely different, nothing I would want to try to compare. The only comment I could make is that Adrian has always seemed more formal, like he's always got a plan. Boz just went with the flow. The other comment on the album I want to make is really that it is a testament to man's ability to recapture and improve upon the past. Give a master some remastering equipment and we get to hear something old that we missed before. Thank you gentlemen! This may be an old topic, but I must say, I always liked Crimson with the saxophone. Has Fripp publicly discussed re-expanding the instruments used by the band in recent years beyond the obvious heavy electronics of the projects? What would happen if Fripp where to jam with say, Peter Brotzman, or more obviously, old Jamie Muir compatriot, Evan Parker? It's seemed clear to me that the band is ever concerned with making sure they are up to date with the times and using the most up-to-date tools, but there is still plenty of potential ground to cover with instruments from ages past and unexpected genres. Peace and Love, Scott Congregation Beth El 222 Irvington Ave. South Orange, NJ 07079 (973)763-0111 www.bethelnj.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:54:03 -0400 From: "David Schroeder" Subject: HAPPY WITH... I don't post much but I just heard the new EP and must say this is one of their finest moments!!! If anyone still doubts the genius of Belew...you may kindly f*ck off!!! [ "Kindly" F*cking off, is an activity new to me --Toby ] Can anyone tell me of another guitarist that has been around as long as Fripp and touch him in sheer heaviness, brilliance, inventiveness, technical ability? NO...I didn't think so. Anyone still doubting the power of Mastelotto and Gunn need to get out of the past, and realize this is Crimson's future as it evolves again!!! Damn what a great cd...finally a reason to stop listening to Porcupine Tree's In Absentia cd!!! That's all I need to say...the music does the rest!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:19:53 -0600 From: "DAVID M. J. BARTOLF" Subject: as churchill sed, this is the sort of english... ....de-lurking. ...placing tongue into the "in cheek" position. firing troll #1... ...i can't believe i'm the first person to post to ET the anal retentive complaint that the new kc release, Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With, should be corrected, for grammar's sake, to Happy With What You Have With Which To Be Happy. firing troll #2... ...since toby has dead-threadified the cute females who dig kc stories, may i invite the sharing of bemusing anecdotes of kc fans (of either gender) as anal retentive exemplars. testing the recursion drive... ..as an adjective phrase, shouldn't anal retentive be hyphenated? turning up the audio... ... np: fubar: the album. ...returning tongue to "wag" position. ...resuming lurk mode... duct-taping on sig line... ...if it is stupid and works, it's not stupid. ...resuming lurk mode. ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 23:04:57 -0700 (PDT) From: rone at ennui dot org (definitely what) Subject: Ashbory Bass - Haiku filler > From: David Gargano > Everyone is in top form, but I only have one question - what the hell is a > rubber bass? See . > From: "Jonathon Smith" > I really want to like this new EP, I really do. But what's with all > the crap between the songs? I mean, a four-song teaser release > would have been alright. I'm left scratching my head. I think they're borrowing a page from Tool, who used this "device" in _Aenima_ and _Lateralus_. I like it, though, even more than Tool's track filler. rone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:52:40 -0400 From: David Vella Subject: 21st Century Schizoid King Greetings, To all those who are haggling over whether or not the 21st Century Schizoid Band is or is not KC, or whether or not they are a tribute band, a cover band, or whatever, I only have this to say: I couldn't think of a more pointless discussion. It's only TALK... The music is what matters, and I as I listen to my recently received copies of KCCC #12, USA, Thrak (remastered), Happy to Be...., and 21st Century Schizoid Band, all I can say is I can't believe how fortunate I am to be hearing all this 33 years after the whole thing got started. It's all good, and I'd be glad to hear it under any name. Can't wait for Mike Giles' CD Progress (already ordered!) to arrive, not to mention the Power to Believe and hopefully a studio CD from 21st CSB in a few months! I think whoever suggested that DGM sell the 21st CSB CD's had a great idea. In fact, here's another idea - when KC goes on the road in 2003, who do you think the best opening act would be? My vote: 21st CSB - perfect! Then everyone can have their cake and eat it, too. I sure hope I happen to be at the show when the 2 bands decide to all play together during the encore just for fun... Just some Cat-Food for thought.... Cheers, David Vella ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:21:33 +0100 From: "S.P. Goodman" Subject: Whither the Tribute/Cover Collection? Hi Folks, Some years ago there was an effort to do a collection of covers of KC songs by several of us on the list. I myself was late with it all enough to drop out, and shortly that, through no influence of mine whatsoever, the project seems to have just faded out of view. Has anyone taken this up - or was the project ever finished? I'm still interested in doing my arrangement of "Indoor Games". :) S.P. Goodman EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net/Gallery - Cartoons and Illustrations! http://www.earthlight.net/HiddenTrack - Cartoons via Medialine! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:09:40 -0500 From: "Phillip Ciskowski" Subject: New releases/21CSB With USA, Earthbound, KCCC12, Happy, Thrak, Peter Gabriel's Up, and Power in February we truly have an embarrassment of riches. What a great time to be a fan of this band. On the 21st Century Schizoid Band, I believe Robert Fripp once said he would applaud such a band, and would stand in the front row and request all the old songs. So I would have to imagine that he likes the idea of this band. I think it would be fantastic if they were the opening act on the tour next year. Phil Ciskowski ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:41:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Stack Subject: schizoid band It seems I've stirred the pot a bit with my previous comments about the 21CSB. My problem is not so much with them as with the music industry as a whole-- there's a bit of a regressionist desire amongst music fans. Look at the number of acts touring without albums, just to play the old hits, look at the reunion shows that occur all the time, bands that haven't played together in years that get back together for a bunch of shows. I personally dislike this movement-- I prefer evolution of bands. I have trouble with commercial music because most successful commercial bands do not evolve. This isn't to say that this is bad, but it's not what I prefer. I'd rather a band that changes, a band that evolves. My favorite acts evolved styles over the years, and never looked back. KC falls into this category, even if there is a history and a self-referential nature to the music. 21CSB is a look back. Mind you, I'd love it if the band presented new material live. And to be honest, I'd probably see them if they tour the U.S. It's just that to me, a band playng a bunch of old songs does not represent what King Crimson is about. mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:33:53 +0700 From: Xenantaya Subject: Crimsonian event Manek wrote: > > Does the team think RF will allow 21st Century Schizoid Band CDs to be > sold through DGM? .......what about 21st Century Schizoid Band as an opening band for a King Crimson concert? Or better; share the same stage and touring together? Now THAT must be HUGE Crimsonian event.... The Yin and Yang facets of the King...past & present Salam Sakral! Reza! np__Dinah Washington (Remixed by Rae & Christian) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:24:10 -0500 From: "DiMaso, Phil (Elk)" Subject: That which is Crimson Hello to All, In ET #1043, lbh2 at cornell dot edu wrote: >...This business of whether or not the 21st Century Schizoid Band 'is' >Crimson. In my neck of the woods, 'Crimson' didn't start until Bruford >joined the band. And it didn't really gel until Discipline'. The adulation >that ITCOTCK enjoys completly perplexes me. I couldn't agree more! It was with great pleasure to see the responses for ranking KC albums. This thread has opened up many interesting opinions and views. I must confess to an agenda behind this. I think it's safe to say that nobody could imagine a King Crimson without Robert Fripp. I submit to my fellow ET'ers, that a Crimson without Bill Bruford is as much of a loss. I have nothing against Pat, Mike Giles, etc. but the rhythm section of the band with Bruford was on a musically higher plane. I enjoy all of the incarnations of KC, and agree that my list changes from time to time, but I noticed on my lists as well as a majority of yours, that the highest ranking albums are the ones WITH Bruford. Robert Fripp probably won't admit it, but I think Crimson has suffered musically without the drumming of Bill Bruford. I think RF needs someone who will challenge him rhythmically and musically to create tension and release in the music. Not being a fan of totally electric drums, TCOL is a hard listen for me. On one hand, Robert's playing is amazing (as usual), Ade's guitar is no slouch either, and his lyrics are clever, and Trey's playing is inspired. Pat's drum sound is terrible and thankfully, buried in the mix. When I first heard this cd, it reminded me of a continuation of TOAPP. I liked all elements of this cd except the drums. I could only imagine how much greater this album would have sounded had Pat played more acoustic drums. Better yet, how different it would have been with BB playing on it. To be fair, I enjoyed Pat's playing on Thrak very much. I'm hoping that The Power to Believe has a better drum sound on it. Oh well, one can only hope that the Double Trio can be resurrected for future recordings. I'd be very interested to hear what you think about a KC without BB being as great of a loss as a KC without Fripp. Stay young in mind, and you'll remain young in spirit. Phil DiMaso ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:57:37 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: In my neck of the woods; maybe Cross Wetton and Bruford >In my neck of the woods, 'Crimson' didn't start until Bruford joined the >band. And it didn't really gel until Discipline'. The adulation that >ITCOTCK enjoys completly perplexes me. This is usually due to a lack of perspective. If you were to ask Bruford when Crimson jelled, he'd tell you that it jelled during its residency at the Marquee in 1969, before the first record was even made. By any chance are you less than 45 years old? Do you have much of a concept as to the other bands that were popular in 1969, and the style of music that they were playing at the time? Think about this - King Crimson's peers were probably the Moody Blues and Procol Harum. That's as close as anyone could get to Crimson in 1969 - and that's not very close. >Maybe Cross, Wetton and Bruford could find a guitar player and tour the >world playing 73/74 KC music. I've got an idea - why not Jobson, Wetton, Bruford and . . . oh yeah - that's been done. The bad old days, they came and went, giving way to fruitful years, - S. np: Jethro Tull, Minstrel in the Gallery scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:33:03 -0500 From: "David Jackson" Subject: new Tlev and spocks beard albums I have been a Prog Rock fan for about 3 years now, I know thats nothing to some of you out there but I'm just a college kid. So I just ordered the Pieces of the Sun by Tony Levin and I love it, nothing special really but its nice to hear some good new prog coming from someone other than RF. This brings me to my next point which is the new Spocks Beard Album. I really dont like it at all, this might not be the most educated judgement ont he album since I've only kind of listened to it twice, but thats only because I cant stand most of it. I love older SB like V, but the 50 extra minutes of Neal Morse ballads with barley anything backing him up on Snow is too much for me. It seems like its just filler so they could make a 2 disc concept album to compete with the new Dream Theater album, which I also really dont like(screw mike portnoy and his stupid leatard). I was wondering if anyone else shares this opinion about the current state of prog being almost dead. Maybe I'm just a weird fan since Lizard is one of my favorite albums. One more quick comment/factoid, I saw Les Claypools Flying Frog Brigade at the Bonnarroo festival this summer, and they opened up with an extended version of Thela Hun Ginjeet. -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:38:14 -0600 From: "Eric and Nancy Thorson" Subject: Schizoid band- a suggested paradigm Glad to see Elephant Talk still hopping along. The 21st Schizoid Band is perfect fodder for one of those endless-destined-to-be-snipped threads. Is it Crimson? Is it a tribute band? I have not heard them, but from the available literature, this sounds like a fascinating project that is neither intended to usurp the Crimson King, nor merely crank out his greatest hits. Along with covering the actual music produced in the period, they actually want to generate new music based on the theory and spirit of the '69 band. Think of it as a musical exercise. like finishing Beethoven's 10th symphony. I would compare this effort to Anekdoten, those Swedish students of the 72-74 Crimson, who create hauntingly accurate extrapolations of that artistic voice in entirely new songs I feel it is entirely legitimate to do something like this. My dearest hope would be that they revisit and complete "Trees," that barely-listenable but fascinating piece of apocrypha showcased at the end of CC#1. I look forward to hearing what the Schizoid band invents based on the voice of the '69 Crimson, whatever it is. I applaud the effort, and see no genuine reason for controversy. -ET ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:22:10 -0700 From: "Moshier, John T" Subject: The Voice as instrument, King Crimson and the Blues The recent discussion of whether the human voice is or can (and my case certainly never will) be a musical instrument reminds me of an observation Robert Palmer made in his excellent book Deep Blues. Paraphrasing, as I don't have the book handy, Mr. Palmer observes that they key to the vocal performances of legendary blues masters like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf is their virtuosic use of microtonal intervals between the regular notes. This, coupled with the note bending techniques of slide guitar playing, gives the Delta Blues and its offspring the Chicago Blues, their characteristic sound. Mr. Palmer is of the opinion that very few white guitarists, and even fewer white singers have been able to develop these techniques at the level practiced by the blues masters. Now, let's turn to high brow art and consider the years of training operatic singers go through and the special care they have to take with their own voices. Now let's turn to the market place and look at how little purely instrumental music sells in any genre. I question how anyone could view a well-sung voice as anything other than the most musical of instruments. Which remind's me of a friend's observation a few years ago that no band has really survived the loss of its lead singer. Except for King Crimson. But then, King Crimson don't play the Blues. (OK, I know you all can come up with other examples). Don't you think Mr. Fripp would sing if he could? Gonna get me a fifth of Jack and a bottle of ProzaKc and dream of Fripp singing those Crimson Blues. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:30:13 +0100 From: "Amos_Brailey" Subject: Thoughts on the Schizoid chat Firstly I'm glad at least for the fact they are getting talked about and therefore receiving media coverage, albeit a mixed reaction. And .... I'm wondering about those that have made negative remarks about the 21stCSB. How many concerts did you attend?. Have you heard their cd?. When the 1972 U.S. tour came to an end (I think it was the 1st April) Ian, Mel & Boz "left" and towards the end of July the public learnt that there was going to be a band comprising of Robert, Bill, John, David & Jamie. At that time this grouping of musicians only featured one ex KC member, is/was that a cover band?. Did it become KC?. Ah, hold on, if you say something like "Ah well that included Robert so it was KC" perhaps that might mean you think Robert is KC is Robert!. On the 30th April 1981 there was a band calling themselves "Discipline" I think they used this name till the middle of the following month, did they "become" King Crimson ? were they ever King Crimson ? Were they a cover band ? The double trio used to "cover" older material INCLUDING 21st Century Schizoid Man. Older material not necessarily pertaining to the personnel current at the time (save for Robert) has always been played in concert. There are 4 KC luminaries in the Schizoid band, two of which were from the seminal quintet (yes quintet because I include Peter Sinfield). Then there is the fabulous Mel Collins, and lets not forget the somewhat unsung heroes .... yes Peter AND Jakko !. Peter sadly is often overlooked, he played his part in Crimso history and seeing him live opened my eyes and ears MORE. How about Jakko ? .... ok he's never been in King Crimson before but imho has a "Crimso" voice, and the guy can play guitar, he's no Fripp clone, I don't want him to be, do you ! ?. I mentioned earlier about the Schizoid bands concerts, and their cd. How many of their concerts have the sceptics and detractors attended?. Are they aware of the Ian McDonald material the band play?, how about Mike Giles's "Progress"? and of course material they play from the McDonald & Giles album that had never been performed live before !?. It's also about the individuals and following their careers, its no different than following any other current or ex KC members career. This band are so strong, the personnel so talented one doesn't miss Fripp. Some of the music they play never featured Robert anyway and its not as though they are trying to replicate the music note for note, certainly Jakko is not attempting it and why should he?. Cover band!?! .... I don't think so. Four fifth's of the 21stCSB were King Crimson members (yes Peter Giles was a member of KC) and I am trying to imagine what it would be like to try not to be oneself, try to be someone else and then try to cover the person your not meant to be but are all the time? I've had conversations with a lot of people at the concerts both before and after show time and considerable private email chat too. I can't understand any KC fan not being interesting in, not going to, or being interesting in seeing this band. For those that wanted to but couldn't for whatever reason I feel for them. I can see far more positives then negatives for attending and of course for being enthusiastic. In closing I think you'll find that the band are going to be writing and producing their own music, and possibly getting the very talented Mr Peter Sinfield to do some lyrics. It will be interesting to hear any music they may write as a band. The future will present itself ;) ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1044 *********************************