Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1043 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1043 Wednesday, 9 October 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: Elephant Talk Help Facility Documentation of Genius Schizoid Band DARSHAN KC at the library KC content on ELP concert not happy with what I should be happy with That which is Crimson 21CSB Vocals/Instruments nashville 05-19-00 download da voice as instrument Re: Attacks on the "Schizoid Band"/ect. 21SB on DGM? Is 21st SB KC? Or not? Schizoid Band ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:46:24 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: NEWS: Elephant Talk Help Facility Steve munari wrote... > A friend in England(PB)e-mailed me this morning, telling me he had read my > post in ET 1038. Well, I checked my mail no ET 1038. I gave it 2 hours & > decided to write to, help at elephant-talk dot com to see if there was a > problem. All i'd get each time was the old, mail "undeliverable" line. I > checked my spelling, ect & everything was correct! Anyway 5-6 hours after > my friend in England had his, I received mine. While I don't expect to > have to use the Help address for ET again, could someone pls let me know if > anything has changed as far as where to write if subscription or other > problems should arise? I mean why would'nt my e-mail get through? I can explain - I have withdrawn the help facility due the absolute deluge of spam that was pouring in to this address. This may come as a surprise to some, but ET is sent out via a dial-up line from my house in Edinburgh, and consequently all incoming admin requests are received the same way. Shortly prior to shutting down the help at elephant-talk dot com address I was receiving about *six megabytes* of crap every day. That is *expensive* to download and time-consuming to sift through only to find nothing of worth. Even better, some half-wits who find amusement to had in these things took (and continue to take) joy and delight in mailboming both the ET admin and ET help addreses. I once had to take out nearly *three gigs* of mailbomb fallout from my mailboxes following one recent attack and a telephone call from my ISP. The final nail in the ET Help coffin came when it fell prey to just about everyone on ET who ever contracted an Outlook Express mail virus, each attack sending about 250K per spurious e-mail. I was getting about twenty a day at one point. Enough was enough. Given the lack of real use of the address and the landslide of viruses, mailbombs and spam, it was withdrawn. However, you are now the fouth or fifth person to ask for it to be returned. OK - I'll give it another try. If the same thing happens again then it will be permanently withdrawn. Sorry if the action I took inconvenienced anyone, but I really didn't have a choice. Mike Dickson Elephant Talk Administration and Distribution ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:41:07 -0400 From: David Gargano Subject: Documentation of Genius I have listened 'Happy With What You Have to Be Happy With' twice now and I really like it. Being a King Crimson fan for years, I get a great deal of enjoyment from the level of coverage we are given as listeners. It is great to be able to catch glimpses of these works in progress. I have also been catching up on some KCCC releases lately, and I am in a delightful state of KC overload. My meters are in the Red in the best way! For those who have said Fripp is greedy by selling all these releases, I would argue that he is very generous by giving his audience a level of documentation that is rarely seen in the modern music biz. The new EP is very well produced for a 'sessions' disc. According to the liner notes there is an album called 'EleKtricK' forthcoming as well. The haikus have a really cool vocal effect. The 'Happy' tune is very heavy and modern. I wonder if Adrian is really going to write different lyrics, or if those are the lyrics and it will remain. Eyes Wide Open sounds great. Then there is a tune that is reminiscent of the beginning of LTiA,PT1 with a chimes, bells sound. Potato Pie gets bluesy, reminding me of the '71 band a bit! The LTiA 4 is an absolute killer. Everyone is in top form, but I only have one question - what the hell is a rubber bass? Dave G. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:54:34 +0000 From: "Anna Rose" Subject: Schizoid Band No offence to all you excited people, but it's quite simple: Without Robert Fripp a band is not KC. It is not even nearly KC. In the inlay of 'Absent Lovers' Fripp states that despite what people may say, he alone is not Crimson. Maybe so, but what Crimson always was, was Fripp and a bunch of other talented musicians. All that a band without Fripp but playing Crim music amounts to, is a cover band. And I think cover bands are a really crap idea. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 19:24:02 +0200 From: "Aurelia Lago" Subject: DARSHAN Dear Friends: I am wondering if you can help me to find "Darshan" by Sylvian and Fripp , I am very interested in buying the album for a friend of mine. I am writting from Spain and I would need to have a legal copy of the album as soon as possible, no later than the end of October. I would be very grateful to anyone that gave me information. Regards, Aurelia Lago. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:12:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Shane Carey Subject: KC at the library I'm temporarily de-lurking to yes-and the idea of King Crimson at the library. Not only is there some available, but why not add to it? Of course, libraries accept donations. Because I've pretty much cathected my entire music collection, my current MO with new music is to listen to it nonstop until I have absorbed as completely as I wish (this may take a few days or a few months, depending on the music). Usually, by the time I have listened as much as I want, I've pretty much memorized the CD and can play it back in my head at will, without requiring the physical artifact; so, I donate it! Before I buy the new music, you see, I search the local library's catalog to see if they already have it. As you can imagine, they're a little lean on, for example, Trey Gunn recordings. But how can that situation be improved? Only by, either the intervention of a mole -- such as the person who recently stated they were able to influence the library's choices -- or the donations of a good fairy. Anything that, after a year, is still in regular rotation in the car, I'll keep to myself. But I would just as soon be the *last* person who can't find Heavy ConstruKction at the library. Hey, if I ever need those discs again, I know where to find them! I recognize that there are those reading this list who can't afford to purchase a large number of CDs, let alone CDs they don't intend to keep. Fair enough. But there are also those who clearly have enough scratch to purchase music on the most remote hearsay, and to complete their collections with three different editions of the same recording: to those, I say, support your local library! And, don't forget, in America at least, the donation is tax-deductible. -shane Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:40:22 -0300 From: Diderot de Britto Subject: KC content on ELP concert In ET-1041, Allan wrote: "(...) when Dave playing an Acoustic Guitar alone sang the first verse of Epitaph - good moment (...) perhaps or was this part of ELP's repertoire when doing Tarkus originally." I've been on an ELP concert in '97 (too far from Tarkus era) and they played the first two verses of 21CSM at the encore. It would be great if they had played Epitaph too. It was a good concert, with Greg Lake incredibly fat, [ that's a tiny bit rude, my dear chap -- Toby ] Keith Emerson like an acrobat, destroying an old keyboard and Carl Palmer incredibly young... Cheers Diderot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 14:59:50 -0500 From: "Jonathon Smith" Subject: not happy with what I should be happy with I really want to like this new EP, I really do. But what's with all the crap between the songs? I mean, a four-song teaser release would have been alright. I'm left scratching my head. I really like sound, especially the more integrated drumset [it seems the Pat was stuck on nearly all electronic stuff]. I still don't know what to make of them doing a blues song, though. And why do we need a re-hash of Larks' Tongues in Aspic? That said, I'm very excited for the new record. I know this was probably just for fun, and I'm sure they'll deliver. Jonathon "Many people wanting the elixir of youth Through defeats and through disasters Stifling the only thing that changes it all Love is what I'm going after" --Terry Taylor, from "As the World Turns" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 19:42:44 -0400 (EDT) From: lbh2 at cornell dot edu Subject: That which is Crimson In the ongoing perversity that is 'King Crimson', I am struck by the fact that so many of us are rabid fans of an amalgation that we can't agree on what it is (lapse in grammar acknowledged). This business of whether or not the 21st Century Schizoid Band 'is' Crimson. In my neck of the woods, 'Crimson' didn't start until Bruford joined the band. And it didn't really gel until Discipline'. The adulation that ITCOTCK enjoys completly perplexes me. Due to my lack of confidence in DGM ever fulfilling the KCCC subscription fee that I paid for the 3rd time this spring, I allowed them to send the long delayed KCCC #12. What a mistake. The performance, such as it is, is utterly squashed flat by the wretched sound. This now stands as the worst King Crimson release in a long history. Avoid it at all costs. (I have already pledged my copy to a friend, who pines after it despite my direst warnings, so don't offer to take it off my hands.) Where was I? What is Crimson? Who cares? I just want to hear the TOAPP rehearsals that were delayed so that KCCC #12 could be foisted upon us. B___, loading up the CD changer with the ProjeKcts box, to cleanse his gentle pink ears... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:48:15 -0300 From: "Diego" Subject: 21CSB Sorry if someone already mentioned this, but there are striking similarities between the 21CSB story and the story of ABHW/Yes. Is ABHW Yes? The official Yes site now recognizes the ABHW album as a Yes album. Tony Levin also plays on the Union album, which is an ABHW album with a few Yeswest (Anderson/Squire/Kaye/Rabin) tracks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 23:05:36 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Vocals/Instruments >If you look at the human voice as just another instrument, with >different qualities to a guitar or a drum or a trash can or a vegetable, >then you can see that there really is no distinction >from music 'with' or 'without' vocals. I only half-agree. Granted, the human voice is an instrument. There's this song in Steve Vai's "Sex & Religion" called "Touching Tongues". This is a pretty simple instrumental track, with Steve providing some melodic, romantic, dreamy soloing over a simple rhythm. However, it all changes completely when vocalist Devin Townsend starts singing in some sort of "human voice solo". He doesn't sing any words, just "Aaaah....heey heee howwww..... E ooo - aaiiaaeaoo...." ... et cetera. It's beautiful; and somehow, slightly disturbing (Devin can *really* scream). However... My point is that the difference between songs with vocals and instrumental songs, is not the implied instruments, but the use of *words*. I doubt anyone will remember Devin's "heey heee howwwww..."s and the such. That's what usually draws the difference between vocal songs and instrumental songs... I usually joke with my brother with this Dream Theater song called "A Change of Seasons". At a certain point, the guitarist and the bassist start playing these 16th-notes unison lines while the drummer lies in the background with this cool rhytym... then joins them with a big drum fill in the end. It's a very exciting moment, both technically (those guys can BURRRRRRN!) and musically (it builds up some nice tension). However, I doubt that DT's crowd will ever sing along to that (i mean... it would be like "badabada badabada badabada badabada...") - Instead, they will probably sing to the nice verses during the different sections of the piece (particularly "Innocence" 's chorus...). (this also brings to my memory a quote by Ringo Starr... he said that "you don't whistle my drum part; you don't whistle's George's solo - It's the SONG what's sticks to your head"). So, my point is: The difference between songs with vocals and songs *without* vocals is not really voice itself, but the use of *words* when voiced by the human voice (redundace anyone?). Even if they don't have a melody (i'm more akin to yelling along with Ade Belew in "Elephant Talk" than to singing along to Devin's "heey heee howwwww...."s in "Touching Tongues"). (There goes a KC reference, so now you have a reason to post this ^_^ ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:07:04 -0400 From: Dave Subject: nashville 05-19-00 download Hey gang... Long time no post. Hope all is well, Toby... And to the point... I was fortunate enough to be at 12th and Porter's for the May 19, 2000 show. A while back, I got a copy of the Cds for this show from an ET post-er. Now my CD2 (VROOOM - Heroes) is wacking out on me. to doesn't seem to play correctly anymore. I was having a similar problem with the Mexico City show that was avaiulable for download some time back. but was able to recover that CD with some kind software, but this one I fear is shot. So what I'm wondering is: Is there someone out there that has a copy of this that I might trade for? I searched the 'net high and low and apparently this download is no longer available. Anyone's help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much, Dave Steimling PS: And when the shows start up again, don't forget to visit: http://www.midnightmecca.com/crim/fsguest.html to hook up with other Crimmers to hang out with or swap tickets with or whatever.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 03:18:40 +0000 From: "Peter Shindler" Subject: da voice as instrument Having seen Tomahawk recently, and Mr Bungle a ways back, I am quite curious as to how Mike Patton would sound fronting the current KC lineup. I also think Bjork and P3/P4 would have been a perfect match (which I posited to ET around the time of the Projekcts). I think I also mentioned Sheila Chandra, Lisa Gerrard (from Dead Can Dance), Diamanda Galas, and Meredith Monk (fifteen years ago) as other vocalists who would likely fare well in these situations. They all happen to be female; I can't think of any guys besides Patton... maybe Michael Stipe in the early REM days, but the idea of him onstage with Fripp is just too weird to contemplate. A little help here? No disrespect to Adrian Belew or John Wetton, but it would be incredibly interesting if Crimson hooked up with a singer who really did approach his/her voice as another instrument in the lineup. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:19:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve munari Subject: Re: Attacks on the "Schizoid Band"/ect. I've posted once before on this topic(around Oct 4th)& it was'nt printed, maybe this will see the light of day? Can someone please tell me what is going on with all the "bashing" deriding of the Schizoid Band? These guy's are NOT & never claimed to be King Crimson. That's was some other person's idea of what they should be called. The "Schizoid Band" is also NOT a "tribute" band. This is simply 4 ex-King Crimson members whom read all the things written on this newsletter & others as well, by people wanting to hear the classic older KC songs played by ex-Crimson members, or by the current band, which everyone knows would never happen. These fine musicians were smart enough to know that by getting together and recording a cd of older KC tunes that anyone whom proclaims to love KC would flock to hear! Once they did the cd, they were smart enough to know by calling themselves the "SB", they would be reasonably sure they could expect the word of their exsistence to get around, & could then schedule a small # of gig's(10 exactly)that would more than likely be well attended!(10 gig's does not a "tribute" band make my friends!!)From there(after the gig's were played)they could use the monies made from the sale of the cd and t-shirts to go forth and record another cd, with or without older KC songs being included! That is giving the public what "THEY WANT" while helping themselves by playing together, which makes the band a "tighter" more cohesive unit, & seeing what all the 5 being together for a period of time would bring about! These FINE musicians, gave us the opportunity to see what we had been clamoring for, all these years(by "we" I mean the people interested in what the "SB" can do)and at the same time gave themselves the chance to hone their chop's, and find out if they could indeed be a band. So I find myself disturbed when I read that these men are "sitting still-rehashing old songs over & over-being a tribute band" ect. I find the "Schizoid Band" to be highly entertaining, great player's(not as easy as you might think when a musician is over, WELL over my age, 50!)and the perfect answer to what those of us have been dying to hear for...well, 30+ years!! Also, for those whom still think unkindly of the "SB", exactly what do you think Fripp is doing when he makes all these KCCC releases available to the masses? Yeah, sure he does'nt want to play these tunes "live" anymore, & that's fine. I always want the music/musicians I love to move forward....but HOW can anyone deride the members of the "SB" for what they do whilst buying a recording of old songs that Fripp decides to release? Sure you can say, well I never got to hear THAT particular version of KC play, or even "I only bought the recording of the OLD STUFF, to hear the improvosations" well, both are really the same thing wether it be the "Schizoid Band" doing their versions of the older material, or if you've paid to get KCCC recordings! Peter Giles was a member of King Crimson, there is no doubt of that. Jakko(being the only non ex KC member)was chosen because he's so talented that he could handle the playing of ALL of the intricate guitar parts, & make them sound like Fripp was doing them(at the same time adding his own unique flavor to each!)AND he could also handle the extremely hard task of replicating the many different vocals that are represented on the "SB" cd, while being Jakko the vocalist. So I'm done ranting, but I just hope this will somehow help put a stop to the "bashing" of the incredible "Schizoid Band"! Hey guy's, the US awaits you AND "WE" want to hear you do the old KC material as well as whatever you decide to play in the way of "original" material. I can assure you, with the proper amount of notice/advertisement that the "21st Century Schizoid Band" will be touring the US,... you'll draw good-no GREAT crowds here, and after you make this announcement, the "word of mouth" will be enough to fill the venue's with people. Just make sure that St. Louis IS on your list of cities to play!! Steven "And the pantalooned duck...white goose neck quacked...Webcor...Webcor." CB lyric's to "Golden Birdies" Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:44:09 +0100 From: "Manek Dubash" Subject: 21SB on DGM? Does the team think RF will allow 21st Century Schizoid Band CDs to be sold through DGM? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:44:09 +0100 From: "Manek Dubash" Subject: Is 21st SB KC? Or not? >1) King Crimson equals the Robert Fripp way of doing things - Robert >Fripp >owns the name - Robert Fripp offers Quality Control.. >2) King Crimson equals King Crimson musicians playing King music to a >King >audience i.e if it looks like a duck walks like a duck and >quacks >like a duck then yes it really is a duck. > >By the second definition the 21st CSB really is King Crimson they >simply >don't own the name but they do own the performance and the performance >is >King Crimson. Hmm, yes I kind of agree. The question you actually have to ask (and, like a previous correspondent, I don't want to get wanky existentialist about -- nice description) what is KC? Is the band that did great things 30-odd years ago or is it RF and today's crew? The answer in my view is: both. Since KC has changed so much over the years, each has a viable claim to the name. Maybe one answer is to call the early revivalists KC69 and today's outfit KC XP . Manek ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:52:08 -0300 (ART) From: Ronald Miklos Vogel Subject: Schizoid Band Schizoid band? Great stuff. Good musicians playing KC. Maybe Cross, Wetton and Bruford could find a guitar player and tour the world playing 73/74 KC music. Who cares if they are called, named,etc. "King Crimson" or not. As long as they play Crimson music.... Ronald Vogel ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1043 *********************************