Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #104 D i s c i p l i n e The INTERNET newsletter for Robert Fripp enthusiasts Number 104, Thursday, 26 August 1993 Today's Topics: Fripp & Live Recordings Fripp, Bruford & keeping time King Crimson and Fripp videos live crimson new brian eno Shifting Rhythm Bases Sylvian/Fripp Tour Dates Wanted Best Wishes to Robert's Mother Silent Night flexi Sylvian/Fripp 1993 European tour dates [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Hi everyone. I'm back from holidays so here's the latest Discipline. Welcome to all the new readers who signed up while I was away. The readership now stands at 379. -- Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 08:55:07 MDT From: pmartz at dsd dot es dot com (Paul Martz) Subject: Fripp & Live Recordings Fripp's reluctance to release live recordings is analagous to any famous author refusing to publish personal letters written to friends. This is a right held by the creator, and there are many good reasons why such things should not be released. In the case of the author, Ernest Hemingway comes to mind, such letters were published in a book with a preface by Hemingway indicating that he almost wished they weren't published. To paraphrase: "They are not intended for a mass audience, they contain many flaws of grammar, they were never editted and often never proofread. As such they should not stand as examples of my work." This is a perfectly understandable position, and in the end the decision to publish or not to publish belongs to the artist alone, regardless of demand by the consuming public. How Hemingway felt about his personal letters is directly applicable to live recordings of music. They are intended for that audience alone. They contain many flaws if each performer isn't in exacting shape, and doesn't perform their part perfectly. Given these circumstances, is it any wonder that so few authors publish their personal letters? I am surprised that more musicians don't feel the way Fripp does! -paul pmartz at dsd dot es dot com Evans & Sutherland [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 13:48:22 EDT From: Ron Peterson Subject: Fripp, Bruford & keeping time I've read several people mention that Fripp doesn't like drummers who play with the timing of the beat. This seems unlikely given the experimental nature of King Crimson in its various incarnations and given Fripp's own experimentation with timing using delays and loops (and even -people- in his Crafty work.) I seem to remember reading once a statement by Fripp that he's never had much fun playing with (any) King Crimson because he is usually the one who ends up keeping the timing while everyone else explores. On another subject, I too am interested in King Crimson videos (or any other videos with Fripp). I have the live in Japan video with the most recent KC lineup (which is quite excellant!) and a few music videos featuring the same band. Would be very interested in earlier works. I haven't seen much mention of this yet in Discipline so I'll bring it up myself: Fripp has apparantly been working with Toyah for many years. Besides The Lady or the Tiger and Kneeling at the Shrine there is some suspiciously Fripp-like guitar work on some of her other albums, although there is no mention of his name in the credits. I've heard he & she married a few years ago. I like Toyah's work and would like to hear more of it. I've found a few albums that were released in the States and was able to get cassette copies of her UK albums. I'd like to get them on CD or LP however so I can see the covers and names of the songs. Anyone know how to go about getting them? One of the CD's I have says it is the sound track >from a live television special that she did. Is this available on video anywhere? Anyone know any more gossip about Fripp and Toyah? Ron ron at vicorp dot com or uunet!vicorp!ron [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 11:11:43 -0700 From: Malcolm Humes Subject: King Crimson and Fripp videos Punky Meadows asks: > Somebody recently asked about KC videos and I was about to ask myself - and > since I didn't see any responses I'll ask again - What videos are out there > (legal or illegal)? I'm especially interested in the pre-80s stuff. I > know there is the '84 Tokyo show on laserdisc and the '82 France show. Is > there other stuff too? (As in, bootleg type things or stuff broadcast on > tv?) No claims that this list is complete. Toby, I think maybe this should go in the FAQ? I know I've posted this before so I think adding the list to the FAQ or a pointer to the digest it's found in would be a good idea. I'd also suggest adding a pointer to the Bootlegging and Royalties article that was posted to the 2nd or 3rd issue. Anyway, these are the videos I know of in circulation. Probably something that you could find through an avid trader or possibly through some bootleg video mailorder place - but it seems like fewer folks are out there selling videos, probably because the inherent quality loss in each dub makes the stuff pretty unmarketable. BTW, while I may enjoy the benefits of listening to and watching "bootlegs", as someone recently posted, we all make our own judgements as to whether to do so or buy them. Personally I refuse to buy bootlegs and will only trade them on a not-for-profit basis. In this I feel that I'm at least being fair to the artist in not handing off money to those parasites profiting off of something that isn't their property to sell. And I'm not interested in trades at this time so please don't bother asking. All times are approximate. Apologies to the person who's collection list I took this info from. As far as Crimson videowise... Bremen Beat Club 1970 - 10 mins Lark's Tongue Part II (with Jamie Muir) Black Oak Arkansas - Easy Money (Live) - 1973 Atlantic promo film 10 min Live on "Fridays" 1981, do Thela Hun and Elephant Talk 20 min Heartbeat promo video 5 min New Music Interview 1981, w/live bits 10 min New Music Interview 1982, w/live bits 8 min IRS Cutting Edge show 15 min Live at the Rockpalast 1982 Germany 55 min (supposed to be excellent) Sleepless (Extended Dance Mix version) promo vid - 8 min The Noise, Live in Frejus France 1981 60 min Three Of A Perfect Pair Live in Japan 1984 90 min Fripp Video: 2 different films from "Exposure" 15 min Reverberation Chamber Interview 1979 (weird...) 15 min Midnight Special 1975 15 min New Music Interview 1981 7 min With League of Gentleman live 1979 15 min I've seen the 3oaPP laser disc still offfered for sale in a video catalog from SPECTRUM MUSIC VIDEO (somewhere in Pennsylvania) 1-800-84MUSIC. Sorry I don't have an address or non 800# those who would want it. - malcolm [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 13:00:25 -0700 From: David A. Craig Subject: live crimson i have seen a live crimson recording titled "81-99". it is clearly from the discipline tour (discipline thela hun ginjeet etc. ... standard sequence from that tour. also given away by the sound of the band, naturally). roughly 45 minutes. anyone out there have any clue as to date/venue? i've attempted various interpretaions of the numerals 81-99; nothing i tried matched up to "frame by frame" sensibly ... maybe i'll should try again. except i noticed that 8+1 = 9, so we have 999 which is 666 upside down. now that's not very helpful is it? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 12:55:17 -0700 From: David A. Craig Subject: new brian eno for those brian eno fans out there (i know there's at least two of you :) ), a new eno record has appeared. it is called _Neroli_, and subtitled "music for thinking part IV". it consists in one roughly hour long piece. eno is responsible for all apsects of composition and performance. more details on its musical content after i have had a chance to assimilate it. i would be interested in hearing others opinions of it; if discipline readers find discussion of eno out of bounds i would be happy to carry on further discussion off-digest. inside is an eno discography of sorts (ie stuff available from caroline). at collaborations with fripp, hassell, etc. are included (significance of this remark to follow). the last category is something to the effect of "for the fall" ... and lists two 3cd box sets of remixed and rare tracks, and singles. one of the boxes is promised all ambient. they are called "strange familiar" and "familiar strange". nowhere did the word "unreleased" appear, but given the difficulty of interpreting the word "rare" it is hard to judge whether there will be anything the serious eno freak hasn't heard before. never mind, i'll be all over 'em anyhow. notably absent from this list of material "to appear" is the fripp/eno record that has been discussed. anyone care to comment? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Sat, 7 Aug 93 21:52:20 -0600 From: dalton at isidis dot colorado dot edu (lizard man) Subject: Shifting Rhythm Bases Dave Craig mentioned... > i would be interested to hear discussion of the point raised by lizard-man, > that fripp seemed unwilling to take the challenge of a shifting rhythm > base. always seemed kinda wimpy, to me. (separate from the obvious > personality problems between bruford and fripp ...) Paolo remarked.... >Now as a guitarist I >have to be a lot more conscious of rhythm and I'm beginning to understand >why it would be difficult to play with a drummer (like Tony Williams, >Trilok Gurtu, or, yes, Bill Bruford) who constantly plays with the >rhythm. I like our drummer but when he does something offbeat I do tend to >lose my rhythm. I'm not complaining though as I see it as an interesting >challenge... Exactly my original point! I would expect Robert Fripp, if anyone, to be up to such a challenge. In fact, listening to his earlier work, I would think he would welcome and even seek out such challenges! Holdsworth does it, McLaughlin does it, etc etc. I would think that Fripp's contributions in the field of improvisational and composed playing would indicate that he is singularly talented at attacking such challenges, so my question is, why the wimpy (Paul Beavis, Jerry Marotta) collaborations? I grew tired of SAOTW quickly because of the boring drumwork. And I never play 3ofaPP any more, because it seems as though Bruford "gave up" or something for the majority of the album. The drumming on "Sleepless" for example makes me want to cringe, despite the contributions of the other players. Don't get me wrong, Paul and Jerry are good drummers, but they cannot match the sheer creativity Bill contributed to two different incarnations of KC. What are the "personality problems" between Bill and Bob? I thought it was purely this musical difference that kept Bill out of the new KC. If it's just that Bill thinks Bob is uptight, geez, mellow out! After all, Bill got back together with everybody in Yes ... If they could settle their differences, anybody can. (Except maybe Waters and Gilmour, but i digress...) I fail to see why Robert would set his sights on anything but the loftiest of goals. And to pick a drummer who will not challenge his rhythm in ways he has more than ably coped with in the past looks to me like a lowering of goals. Let's have a little more discussion of this! And if anyone can point me to an album where Jerry Marotta displays more challenging capabilities >from what i have heard on my girlfriend's Gabriel albums, please do! Regardless of how excellently Fripp/Levin/Gunn may play on the next KC, if the whole band is not contributing groundbreaking efforts, i am going to be very disappointed. Or even bored. --lizard man [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) Subject: Sylvian/Fripp Tour Dates Wanted Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 19:59:50 EDT Apparently Sylvian/Fripp are about to embark on a world tour. Opening will be Michael Brook, who will ALSO be in the S/F band! Personnel is of course Sylvian/Bob The Fripper/Trey Gunn/Jerry "Hothead" Marotta/Michael Brook. If anyone gets any eastern Canadian dates (toronto/ottawa/montreal) or eastern US dates, please post them or drop me a line. [ See the final item below -- Toby ] Thanks, P.S. Hi Bobby! Saw you in the Sylvian/Fripp video the other day! Loosen up man! Get a good laxative! Eat some more fibre! _______________Anil_Prasad___wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca_______________ "It was just that he terrified me because he had such very strong ideas and views. He was quite a cold, detached person, but always smiling... not laughing, but always smiling. He somehow frightened me." -- Judy Dyble on Bobby Fripp & leaving King Crimson [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 20 Aug 93 10:29:27 EDT From: ad520 at freenet dot buffalo dot edu (Daniel M. Dumych) Subject: Best Wishes to Robert's Mother I have read somewhere that Robert's mother is not well. Going on the assumption that Robert might be reading this, all of us here send his mother our best wishes! -- ................................................................. Daniel M. Dumych : "Music : and silence : are indivisible." [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: jonathan at virtual dot cuc dot ab dot ca (Jonathan Levine) Subject: Silent Night flexi Date: Fri, 20 Aug 93 23:15:37 MDT In Discipline (indiscipline?) #103, Anil Prasad sought information on the Silent Night flexi. One of his guesses as to its origin is correct: It was a freebie with a magazine of sorts. Praxis 3 (Praxis Vol.I,No.3) December 1979 Jackson Gray Graphics Inc. Chicago A peculiar little mag, 12" wide x 8" high x 3/8" thick, directed to "new wavers" and graphic artists. Three pages dedicated to Fripp, no significant text. Further details on request from: Jonathan Levine jonathan at virtual dot cuc dot ab dot ca [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 15:28:21 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: Sylvian/Fripp 1993 European tour dates Here are the 1993 Sylvian/Fripp tour dates confirmed so far by their management. The end Oct/start Nov USA dates are yet to be confirmed. I'll of course pass those on as soon as I get them. Toby JAPAN Thu 14 Oct Kanni Hoken Hall, Tokyo Sat 16 Oct Shibuya Kokaido, Tokyo Sun 17 Oct Shimin Kaikan, Sendai Mon 19 Oct Kanagawa Kenmin, Yokohama Thu 21 Oct Festival Hall, Osaka Fri 22 Oct Koseinenkin Hall, Nagoya Sat 23 Oct Kaikan Dai-2 Hall, Kyoto Mon 25 Oct Sun Plaza Hall, Tokyo Tue 26 Oct Sun Plaza Hall, Tokyo ITALY Sat 6 Nov Supercinema, Chieti Sun 7 Nov Tanda Partenope, Naples Mon 8 Nov Teatro Olimpico, Rome Wed 10 Nov Teatro Tenda, Florence Thu 11 Nov Teatro Tenda, Brescia Fri 12 Nov Teatro Colosseo, Torino Sun 14 Nov Il Tempo Music Hall, Reggio Emilia Mon 15 Nov Teatro Smeralda, Milan Tue 16 Nov Politesia Rossetti, Trieste Wed 17 Nov Teatro Astra, Bassario del Grappa HOLLAND Sat 20 Nov Stadsschouwbourg, Sittard Sun 21 Nov Carre Theatre, Amsterdam Wed 24 Nov Musickcentrum, Eindhoven Thu 25 Nov Ossterpoort, Gronigen BELGIUM Fri 26 Nov Queen Elizabeth Hall, Antwerp FRANCE Sun 28 Nov La Cigale, Paris ENGLAND Tue 30 Nov Royal Centre, Nottingham Wed 1 Dec Apollo, Manchester Thu 2 Dec Royal Concert Hall, Glasgow Sat 4 Dec Royal Albert Hall, London Sun 5 Dec Royal Albert Hall, London [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.