Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1039 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1039 Friday, 4 October 2002 Today's Topics: Tull vs. Metallica/TCoL off topic request Re: I'm Worried: Flame bait, trolling or free speach Re: KC/Tool 8.10.01 The drugs work! Magellan/Galactic Influence of the Mahavishnu Orchectra on LTIA, SBB, and Red Peter Gabriel's UP Paul McCartney's Bass sound CD Bargain Sales The Schizoid Band strike again Red Nightmare Band/Prelude Schizoid Epics and Dissent Fergie Re: RF diary & The Vicarage John McLaughlin Jonas Hellborg Schizoid Band The Schizoid tour ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:39:33 -0400 From: "Abel Calvo" Subject: Tull vs. Metallica/TCoL > >It was ludicrous for Tull to beat Metallica for a hard rock Grammy, and >I like them! And I bet if Ian Anderson were candid, he would admit the >same. >Nothing ludicrous about it, "Crest of A Knave" was the better album and >while every song may not be the standard three chord thrash metal formula, >I would choose it everytime. If you choose the winner based on sales >alone, yes, Metallica would have won and this is where I applaude the >voting body for placing quality over quantity for once. The way I understand the original message, there was no intention of saying Metallica is better than Jethro Tull. As it was written, it suggests that what was ludicrous is the hard rock/heavy metal award itself. It doesn't say, "It was ludicrous for Metallica to have been beaten by Tull". I guess what's ludicrous is that no real Tull o Metallica fan would consider the former a heavy metal band. Those of you who watched that Grammy show probably remember it. As a metal-head, it's clear in my memory: it was the first time the Academy dared to present that award, so they had invited a representative band to play live. And it was no Bon Jovi or Guns n' Roses, but Metallica, who were at the time the heaviest in metal. And then they grant the award to Jethro Tull! Can you imagine they inviting King Crimson to play and then granting a Prog/Experimental & Improvisational Rock award to the modern-era Genesis?! Musically, Tull and Metallica cannot be compared, as both of them do music that is completely different. And each band is a solid landmark in its own turf. Of course, all of this is IMHO, as in all things about taste. Indeed, quantity does not always guarantee quality (Titanic is readily beaten by a lot of movies that aren't even on the blockbusters list--The Godfather, anyone?). But it doesn't necessarily mean that a band that sells a lot of albums is bad. (To Toby: Sorry if I strayed too far away from the KC path) [ You are pushing it A BIT :-) -- Toby ] But back to more important matters (concerning this newsletter, at least), I just wanted to give my share on the TCoL thread. Though it's a matter of taste (which means that other people's opinions doesn't really matter that much), I think that those who have said it is a poor album and the like, are just criticizing what makes KC what it is: a mutable entity, always ready to deliver the unexpected. I like TCoL a lot. But maybe the thing is that with KC there's nothing definitive. I read a lot in ET about people who disliked an album at first but then got to like it a lot. I guess all ETers would agree that one's like for the Crim is always mutating, changing. There are days I can't listen to anything other than LTIA, then it's Thrak, then back to ITCOTCK, mixed with TOAPP, TCoL and so on... And I didn't mention any live recordings! Some times I would like the day to have 28 hours, so when I get home tired from the journey, I'd be able to listen to the whole USA without falling asleep or worring for the sleepiness the next day. Other times I let a lot of time pass without listening a given KC record, hoping that when I listen to it again, I'll feel something akin to the first time I listened to it. See ya all in a bit. BTW, I'm listening to Peter Gabriel's Up as I write this, and it is indeed a great album. Go get it! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:49:00 -0700 From: jrunkle at pinnaclepeak dot com (Jeff Runkle) Subject: off topic request A while back I got a complimentary cd of various artists that included "Under The Milky Way" by The Church and might've also included a Van Der Graaf Generator song. It's since disappeared. After tearing the house apart and a fruitless search most of this morning on the internet, I've come up empty. If anybody out there in ETland knows of this cd, please email me privately at jeff at HotScottsdaleProperties dot com. Thanks, Jeff Runkle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:47:03 -0500 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Re: I'm Worried: Flame bait, trolling or free speach There is a very thin line between the three. Especially in the often too anonymous e-world. Definitions Flame bait: Could be joining a 'Right to Live' chat group, and expressing a preference of abortion? Trolling: Could be generating discussion on art by suggesting that red has more significance than green? Free Speech: Could be used as a disguise, or a weapon to justify an ill placed statement? Perhaps this message is an exercise of free speech? I'm worried, the new Mariah Carey album will be rated album of the year. I'm worried, that Toyota will outsell Ford. I'm worried, that there will no longer be super intellectual critics to criticize the criticism of the lesser critics. My point is NOT that a person has no right to dislike Crimson or RF. Although, any person who would spend the energy joining this group, just to express this opinion definitely has nothing to do, and fits the flame bait category. I think the 'I'm worried', (whimsical sentiment) is what set me off. There is nothing you can do. Whether you dislike KC's direction and scream it from the mountain tops, or just worry about it. P.S. I hate Bob Seager. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:59:27 -0400 From: psiogen at mindspring dot com Subject: Re: KC/Tool 8.10.01 Bryan Cowell wrote: > By the way, Anyone out there have a setlist (or, dare I ask, a recording) > from the 08/10/2001 show KC played with Tool? It was my first time seeing > both but certainly not the last! I have a disc 1 of a 3 disc bootleg of the show. My disc just contains the King Crimson set: Dangerous Curves ContruKction of Light Into the Frying Pan Level 5 Deception of the Thrush Larks IV Thela Hun Ginjeet Red The recording quality is pretty good, but there are a lot of annoying whoops and screams from the concertgoers (especially during the quiet buildup of Dangerous Curves.) If you're interested in a copy, email me. -- Sylvan http://www.webcomics.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:02:56 +0100 From: Mr Tea Subject: The drugs work! Bryan Cowell in ET #1037 (Pschedelics/Berkeley 2001) said: > The Construction of Light is a great album on acid. Pretty good on skunkweed too. Kinda mellow, in a skull-crunching sort of way. Hey, I'm actually beginning to like parts of this album! I might have fallen by the wayside if this list hadn't kept my interest in the machinations of Fripp alive. Thanks y'all. Right now though, I have to go listen to 'It is and it isn't' (Damn, this skunk is good!) Herbal blessings Mr Tea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:09:07 -0400 From: "Neil Wicker" Subject: Magellan/Galactic A recent post inquired about the band Magellan and I have some thoughts. Magellan is a decent prog band, probably more in the mold of Dream Theater than King Crimson, consisting of two brothers (whose names escape me). They have a heavy, precise sound and have some decent vocal arrangements. On a tribute album called "Tales From Yesterday" they perform an excellent version of Yes's "Don't Kill The Whale" (a song I dislike in its original form). I would check out some sound clips online (legal if at all possible) before buying as I personally think they lose focus at times. Jack C. posted regarding an upcoming DVD with Les Claypool's version of Thela Hun Ginjeet. In the track listing I noticed Galactic had a few tunes in the mix. If you haven't heard Galactic, I would recommend checking them out. They are a New Orleans funk outfit that rules. They play some pretty intense music and have a guy on Hammond organ that plays extremely well. Cheers Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:43:26 EDT From: NajiBaji at aol dot com Subject: Influence of the Mahavishnu Orchectra on LTIA, SBB, and Red Hi: The more I listen to the first two Mahavishnu Orchestra albums: the Inner Mounting Flame and successive recordings made in 1971-73 and reflect on the way KC responded with LTIA, SBB, and Red. I cannot help but hear the direct influence of MO on KC. It is all very beautiful and complimentary music. I would be interested to know if there were any acknowledgments or statements from members of KC on the MO. (Or from John however you pronounce his last name McLauglin.) Now that I reflect back, MO and KC would have been a delight touring together. Any thoughts? Peace and Proper Pronunciation, dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:34:40 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Peter Gabriel's UP I have yet to check "UP" out but the current single, "The Barry Williams Show" sounds nice. It has that usual qwirky quality most of Gabriel's work has... The video is good too - Which isn't a necesary *plus* but it's good to see nice videos every once in a while. I'm looking forward to getting the full album. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:41:10 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Paul McCartney's Bass sound This isn't really a KC/RF related subject but... I was listening to The Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper..." a couple of days ago and in the second track ("With a little help from my friends") I think I heard an early predecessor of Tony Levin's bass sound. The bass sound on that song has a very trebly, popping, even bubbly presence that reminded me awful lots of Tony's work on PG's "Don't Give Up" from "SO". I'd like to know if anyone thinks the same... or if my ears are going nuts. Oh well. Humm.... That's it. Read on. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:08:35 +0200 From: "Jean-Michel" Subject: CD Bargain Sales More than 100 CD for selling including Crimson albums and alumni, prog-rock standards albums, compilations. Very good state. Private e-mail for complete list. Jean-Michel FRANCE jmg dot music at wanadoo dot fr ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:12:43 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: The Schizoid Band strike again Last night, I saw the 21st Century Schizoid Band play the final date of their UK tour, at London's Queen Elizabeth Hall. Having seen their first public performance one month ago, at the Centerbuty Fayre, I'm delighted to say that they've only got better. Here's a (non-exhaustive) list of the highlights: - PICTURES OF A CITY This is a perfect set opener - it really pumps along. I almost prefer this song to 21st Century Schizoid Man (heresy, I know), because of its jazzy vibe. My favourite version used to be the one on the KCCC release 'Live at Summit Studios', but the Schizoid Band version surpasses it. It's never sounded better! - CAT FOOD Yeah, the original is great, but the Schizoid Band really stretch out on it, adding lots of improv after the verses. Michael Giles's drumming was ever playful and inventive. - TOMORROW'S PEOPLE Oh boy, this was fun. Michael Giles sings it from the drumstool, and just like on 'MacDonald and Giles', he has a few bars of pumping solo drums after the first two verse - but there were also little percussive effects added by the rest of the band. Then MacDonald went into his flute solo, which initially was note-for-note the solo from the album version. But THEN MacDonald and Mel Collins did a delightful 'duel of the flutes', which was brilliant. It's so good to hear the two of them play together. - FORMENTERA LADY and LADIES OF THE ROAD While these two songs are far from being the most exciting in the Schizoid Band set, they were very good, and in my opinion they surpassed the versions on 'Islands' (even though I like 'Islands'). It's great to hear these songs given a new lease of life, and Formentera Lady is so spacey and loose that the band has room to do all sorts of things with it. - EPITAPH This sounded really majestic, and they cranked up the volume when they played it. Jakko, who had seemed a little restrained up to this point (not his fault, I understand he's had a sore throat on this tour), really belted out the vocals. The song was awe-inspiring. Michael Giles's incredible syncopated drumming between verses, which is my favourite thing about the studio original, was just as good live. - BIRDMAN: THE REFLECTION I love the Birdman Suite, and particularly this final section. With its repetition and rich instrumentation, it reminds me of late-60s Beach Boys, or the High Llamas. The Schizoid Band's version was different from the original, particularly because of the addition of guitar, but it still sounded gorgeous. - 21ST CENTURY SCHIZOID MAN A really heavy version, with wild improv. The crowd loved it. The other numbers were also great, but those were my favourites. I love the studio version of Let There Be Light on Ian MacDonald's 'Driver's Eyes', but the Shizoid Band seemed to be straining with it a bit. The other Macdonald solo piece they play, If I Was, was the weakest number in the set when I saw the band at Canterbury, but it's been substantially improved since. At the gig, I bought a copy of the Schizoid Band's 'Official Bootleg: Volume One' album, which is very good - but it can't compare to the live experience (the album was recorded live in the studio just before the tour began). When the band has toured this material for a bit longer, maybe they should release a proper live album. I also got to buy a copy of Michael Giles's solo album 'Progress', which was only released yesterday! (Although it was recorded in 1978.) I've only given it a couple of listens, but it sounds good. I took my girlfriend along last night - she's not heard much KC, and she only likes one of the songs that she has heard, namely Dinosaur. (Her: 'Are they going to play Dinosaur?' Me: 'No. And whatever you do, don't heckle for it - the fanboys surrounding us will kill you.' Her: 'Who's that on the bass? It looks like Lurch from the Addams Family.' Me: 'That's Peter Giles.' And so on.) It was also nice to bump into Sid Smith, who was selling copies of his KC biog at the door. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:19:45 EDT From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Red Nightmare Band/Prelude Regarding Brian Mafi's Red Nightmare band, please can I be Jamie Muir. Please, please, please, please, please. I promise to spray spittle over everybody. Pretty please. I can provide my own instrument's as I'm on good terms with a scrap metal dealer. Please please please. Thankyou. Contrary to what someone suggested in ET 1037 "Prelude: Song of the Gulls" sounds nothing like Barber's "Adagio for Strings". However the KC tune does sound like a track called ......wait for it......"Prelude" from the "Chicago" album (the one that includes "25 or 6 to 4"). The Chicago track is taken at a faster pace but deft use of the pitch control reveals a great similarity. The Chicago track is dated 1970 and the KC track is 1971. I leave the lawyers to draw their own conclusions. Why did I buy a Chicago album? I'd like to plead drink drugs or insanity but actually I recently saw a graet live clip of them on tv and then found the album second hand for #1.50/$2.00. Oh well, it can go on ebay. Gordon Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:01:50 -0400 From: "Stephen P. Carl" Subject: Schizoid Epics and Dissent Hello all, The rumblings of an epic Schizoid based on guitar/sax solos from the Vicar's diary and alluded to by Sandy Starr in ET1037 may yet appear at a mail-order store near you; the epic is described in the latest DGM newsletter concerning the upcoming "Ladies of the Road" release. It will appear as a 2nd disc in this release. If you aren't on this mailing list, I'd think you'd want to be...distant early warning for new releases and other goodies. Note that distant early warning sometimes comes up a cropper, so no holding DGM to promises they don't in fact make. Sometimes "due to circumstances beyond our control" is just that. In the same issue, in a well-argued piece in favor of dissent, Michael Cox mentions "rampant conservatism, ironically". Nothing ironic about it; according to Conquest's First Law, everyone is conservative about what they know best. I'd amend it to say "what they *think* they know best" or "what is dear to their heart", myself, but the general principal stands. I'd like to conserve the mountains of the American West, myself. -spc Stephen P. Carl, Instructor Computer Science and Engineering 328 Russ Engineering Center Wright State University scarl at cs dot wright dot edu 3640 Colonel Glenn Hwy. (937) 775-5057 Dayton, Ohio 45435-0001 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:56:14 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Breis" Subject: Fergie Does anyone have or know where I can find information about Fergus Hall (the artist who did the work on 'The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson' and 'The Compact King Crimson' albums)? I like his artwork, but I cannot find anything about him (other than the KC records and a set of Tarot cards). Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 11:30:02 -0400 From: Brian Preston Subject: Re: RF diary & The Vicarage "Robert Fripp's Diary ...... Apr. 13th. 2002 (last entry) The Vicar's Diary ...... Oct. 1st. 2002" Who knows what/who The Vicar and the Vicarage are? Is this still, as I presume from my reading, our illustrious purveyor of the art as we have come to know it? Any news appreciated (myself being possibly on the fringe of the 'loop' and it various vortices.) Thanks. ************************************************************************* Brian Preston/Metaphoric Music Productions Smokin'Granny http://meta4ik.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/smokingranny2 (sound files) Krimson News Radio http://www.live365.com/stations/crim75 (SG in rotation) Onomata http://www.umbrellarecordings.com/feature.html Groove Stream Attractor http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue20/groove01.html ******** ******** ******** ******** "When people are coupled together through musicking, each steers his or her own raft of subjectivity into the collective sea of neurodynamics." William Benzon in 'Beehtoven's Anvil: Music in Mind & Culture' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:28:40 -0400 From: "Eden, Scott C Mr (Contractor)" Subject: John McLaughlin but since McLaughlin is Scottish Just to make sure this is beaten even more to death, John McLaughlin is not from Scotland. He is from Yorkshire, England (which I believe Toby also mentioned). I'm not sure if this has any effort on how it is pronounced. I myself have always been unsure of it. I've tended to go in the "McLauFlin" direction, which I'm sure is completely wrong. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:08:33 -0700 From: jrunkle at pinnaclepeak dot com (Jeff Runkle) Subject: Jonas Hellborg Thanks to Mike Dennis for recommending bassist Jonas Hellborg and to Eric Johnson for posting the Bardo Records Web site address a few ET's ago. The latest recording is a live set titled "Personae" by Hellborg, guitarist Shawn Lane & drummer Jeff Sipe and it really KICKS ASS! I'm posting to recommend it to all fellow ETers. Not usually a great fan of live recordings, I found the sound quality, mix and dynamics to be incredible. And man do they play! The site address again is www.bardorecords.com. Jeff Runkle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:54:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: Schizoid Band I'm very excited about the Schozoid Band project. Too bad they haven't been on tour in the US, because -even i can't experience their gigs anyway- they'd get a lot more coverage and publicity, and the cd would be available to faraway fans like me. Anyway, don't you think that the fact they are beginning their new band (aka King Crimson --sorry Bob) touring in the UK make all the concept more nostalgic? Does anybody knows if one can order the official bootleg CD worldwide? Can anybody buy me that CD in one of their gigs? (yes, personal mails, please). Anybody took any pictures at their shows? (their site is updated occasionaly). Thanks, Edgar Kausel Chile, South America. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:54:24 +0100 From: "Amos_Brailey" Subject: The Schizoid tour THE 21st CENTURY SCHIZOID BAND. I believe in this band and the recent tour has given me immense pleasure. I attended 9 out of the 10 shows they performed in the U.K. (including their Canterbury festival appearance) I could not make the Corn Exchange in Cambridge. The second I heard about the concerts I immediately went out and got myself tickets, I was stoked for months thinking about this tour. Each gig began with "Pictures", it really is a great opener and I simply love to hear that riff played on the sax. Actually, strictly not quite true because at Croydon there was a backing tape playing which they walked on stage to and then they went into "Pictures". At each show the intro to Formentera Lady gave Peter chance to do a small solo spot, the QEH I feel was his best shot. He is often overlooked and seldom given sufficient credit ; a talented bass player. Formentera Lady itself at most gigs was somewhat of show piece despite numbers like "Epitaph" and I Talk To The Wind" being played every night. Ian and Mel shone on this and Jakko gave a little tease at various shows .... "will they, won't they" with The Sailor's Tale theme towards the end. The set is basically circa 1969-71. Plus "Progress" (excellent btw) the title track of Mike's newly released cd and performances of "If I Was" (sung by Ian) and "Let There Be Light" (sung by Jakko) from Ian's solo cd Driver's Eyes. In concert Ian's songs come to life, especially the latter (of which I enjoy the intro especially). I liked the way the newer material (Mike and Ian's) separated the KC numbers and helped to create an even balance. The band also play "Tomorrows People" from McDonald & Giles, I enjoy the blast of power with the saxes on this. Mel is a monster on the sax, I'd forgotten what a blast he is live, HOLY MOSES that guy ROCKS THE HOUSE !!. Ladies Of The Road is simply awesome, and with Mike Giles on the drums this lifts the tune to new heights!. This band just seemed to get BETTER !! Mike Giles really is both a remarkable and remarkably under rated drummer : period !. I never ever thought I'd bear witness to that guy's playing, it is a true privilege. After bearing witness to nine concerts, I'm left very impressed The walk back on stage for the encore was always "Schizoid" or "Birdman" followed by "Schizoid" , I preferred the latter idea, for me the contrasts worked very well. Much better than walking back on stage and straight into Schizoid. I'd like to see and hear them play "The Letters" and "Circus" and it would certainly be interesting to hear anything the Schizoid band may come up with in the way of their own material :) I understand that they are going to do some writing and may ask Peter Sinfield to handle the lyrics. The concerts that stood out were Milton Keynes, Crewe, Edinburgh, Southampton and London. Perhaps the most enjoyable version of Schizoid Man was performed in Edinburgh, its very difficult to say really. I think just maybe as an overall concert experience the London show was probably my favourite and therefore I guess the best. London was a tight strong gig and a tad faster paced (though probably given impetus by knowledge of the curfew) Jakko's vocal chords took a bit of a beating on tour, unfortunately he was suffering from a sore throat and it showed at a few of the concerts ( anybody can get a sore throat though, but he just had to get one whilst on tour didn't he ! ) Newcastle was a bit iffy, so was Wolverhampton. Kudos to Jakko though, he has what I call a "Crimso voice" , and full marks to him for taking on board the role of both singer and guitarist, no mean feat, not only is it a lot to learn but a very difficult role to play. Not that I'm suggesting he should be (or is) a Fripp clone, he's himself playing Crimso music in the spirit of 2002 .... well done Jakko :) I went to the gigs with an open mind, I didn't notice a huge vacuum at all. I thoroughly enjoyed all the shows, each had their merits and great moments. I was too young to have seen "Crimso The Great" so maybe I appreciate this "line-up" more. I think it is about "contemporary interpretation". Aside from anything else, I think it would be virtually impossible to replicate the old 1969 sound anyway using today's technology, by that I mean the p.a. systems of today and to an extent the instruments etc too have moved on so much and of course there were no mellotrons. I suspect the use of the Korgies (Korg synthesisers) was down to reliability and portability issues, the irony here though is that at Canterbury Ian's packed up just at that vital moment .... the crescendo to "Epitaph" which to my ears left a gaping hole : ( Ian was visibly upset. I got a kick out of talking to people before and then after each gig, especially if they were sceptical. It was fun listening to there before and after thoughts, I suppose it was a little perverse of me really :) On the whole I think everyone enjoyed the shows and quite a few people had a pleasant shock :) I can't wait to see them again ! ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1039 *********************************