Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1035 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1035 Thursday, 19 September 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: From the Moderator. Two new dead threads. Requiem & Mars & Digital Issues Nuovo Metal ? Gallo's review of _Construkction of Light_ Positivity; The construction of light; Doctor Diamond math rock/V drums/ET on NPR (again ?) Hi every one Still waiting for USA! How long does this stuff take!? Fripp-Gunn-Rieflin album sharing music for non profit to the artist Re: Copyright Re: Correct -Why Crim, Yes, etc. Subject: Re: Songs You Hate! Least Favourite Tracks 21st Century Schizoid Band USA, Vocal Distortion file sharing death Kill the File Sharing thread, PLEASE???? USA/First Encounter with KC/file-sharing Cd versus Vinyl The songs you hate... Thanks Toby; A Man A City; the MSN channel that comes up when ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:00:45 -0400 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: From the Moderator. Two new dead threads. Hi everyone, After this issue, the following threads are "dead": - file sharing, the ethics of - is vinyl better than CD / cassette / 8-track cartridge / wax cylinder Hope y'all approve Cheers Toby ET Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:00:45 -0400 From: Michael dot Russell at mercerdelta dot com Subject: Requiem & Mars & Digital Issues Friends-- Along with general bashing of "Beat," I've read a couple of posts ranking "Requiem" on the list of least favorite Crim tracks. Actually, the Frippertronics and accompanying Fripp solo that open that piece are one of my personal favorite musical moments by anyone anywhere. It never fails to take me back to the VA Smith's Chapel Theater (later the Limelight) on Avenue of the Americas in 1982, where Robert gave a pair of Frippertronics shows prior to the commencement of the "Beat" tour. "Requiem" always summons in my memory the burning solos Robert played over the tape loops in the second part of the performance. Seated about ten feet away, I always see in my mind's eye the precise technique and the calm demeanor of a performer who was truly tearing through a blizzard of notes in an apocalyptic frenzy, that resolved in a new place. "Requiem" does much the same thing for me, with the added bonus of my favorite drummer wailing on an acoustic kit. Next to "Baby's On Fire," I've always viewed "Requiem" as the best solo in the first 20 years of Fripp's recorded work. Regarding "The Devil's Triangle:" My understanding is that it began as simply a thoroughly Crimsonized cover of Holst's "Mars." (The Donovan tune "Bearings" also received Crimsonification in the same period.) I recall reading that the administrators of the Holst estate were unwilling to grant permission for the use of the name on "Poseidon," and what is there is more a quotation than a cover, anyway. I always liked the way early Crim flew apart (coda to "Schizoid Man," closing bars of "Pictures of a City") and I thought the "flying apart" last section of "Devil's Triangle" worked well in that regard--I saw it as akin to the other "flying apart" Crim bits, with the added bonus that this particular track does resolve into "Peace--An End" nicely. Gracious! Hearing "Devil's Triangle" bashed actually made me go back and listen to the thing closely for the first time in quite a while! Finally, regarding copyrights in a digital age: Something that seems to be missing from the "Is it sharing or is it theft?" arguments, to me anyway, is the basic assumptions made at the time of recording. For better or worse, everyone who made commercial sound recordings from the 1930s to the 1990s, from Robert Fripp to the Beatles to Elvis to Frank Sinatra to Louis Armstrong, did so with the clear expectation of getting paid. All of these people are (or were) professionals, in that they derive their daily bread from both live performance and recording. In addition many were (and many others were not) paid for their original compositions. Clearly, the business models employed in this half century were imperfect, and digital technology today had rendered them obsolete. But to say that ANY of the products of this period are part of a free public domain database is itself an anachronism. All of these recorded works were made as a result of an agreement between the artist and a patron. Had there been no copyright, I contend that many works (the Beatles post 1966 output, for example) would not exist as recordings today at all. It takes time for artists to develop works. Deprived of an income from both publishing and record sales, live work would be the only income generating possibility for artists, limiting time available for exploring new works. A non-touring Beatles would have simply ceased to exist, for no reason other than the Fab Four needing jobs. It always amazed me as a child that Communist countries like China or the USSR still had currencies and continued to have economies based on wages and prices. Though the notion of free exchange is liberating in theory, in practice, barter or truly cashless economies really mean that you have difficulty satisfying and supporting your personal preferences. Yes, there would still be a guy out there named Robert Fripp, known through all Dorset as a sharp flatpicker and an even sharper wit, be most of us in the rest of the World would never have heard of him. It boils down to this: what business model is there to enable artists to develop their works and then present them to the World in a way that is equitable to both the artist and the audience? It also boils down to this: where we have a wealth of works made for hire that are suddenly available because they can no longer be defended, we are still thieves in a completely unambiguous sense when we take them. It does not matter that these works are "intangible" and that the originator still has a copy after we take ours. The work was made by someone with the expectation of being compensated. If we can take a copy for ourselves, then we deprive this person of their livelihood. This looks more like the Los Angeles riots of a couple of years back, and is equally destructive, when you think again of all the folks who will not have the time and money to record any more. And where, exactly does "intellectual property" begin? Why should I not tell my friends that I composed "Red?" Why did folks make a fuss over the late George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord?" As we move forward, perhaps we can develop a new contract between players and listeners that does include a good bit of "free" information exchange. But I emphasize the word "contract." I think that players should talk about the particular needs they have to have met before they can perform for us. If we simply take their material without addressing their needs somehow, then I would guess that we're gonna see fewer and fewer players out there. In closing a post that grew longer than I meant: the folks at AOL Time Warner haven't figured this out, for either their artists or their audience, even though they know they stand to lose a multi-billion dollar revenue stream. The Ticketmaster folks, supporters of the $125.00 concert ticket, don't WANT to figure anything out. If we as a community of listeners can figure out how to address the needs of both players and ourselves in a digital environment, we will have defined a better world to be a part of. Peace to All, --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:45:05 -0300 (ART) From: Ronald Miklos Vogel Subject: Nuovo Metal ? "Vincent De Boule wrote: >Subject: I'm worried about Nuovo Metal" >"I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong, but I'm afraid that King Crimson >might >be starting a downward spiral. The ConstruKction of Light is one of >Crimson's weakest albums, being overly simplistic, lacking variety, >having........" I do not share the same opinion about everything after the Projekcts (but truthfully respect it) and I am anxiously waiting for new material. I like Berkeley 2001 and other new stuff and try feel it the same way the musicians are doing. This is what they want to play. It is a personal taste to like it or not. I would not say it is the best stuff ever and that it really caught me straight in the middle, but I like it anyway. But with one thing I shall agree, lyrics are weak. Maybe less songs with lyrics would make the instrumental music be more appreciated. Opinions, opinions, opinions.... that is why ET is great. Ronald Vogel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:29:11 -0700 From: Ralph Foster Subject: Gallo's review of _Construkction of Light_ >i step out of lurking to comment on vincent gallo's "review" of TCOL. the >r-word finds itself in quotes not out of blind KC worship (i find many >aspects of TCOL to be difficult to absorb) but out of disdain for gallo's >focus on himself rather than the album. > >first, i suppose that i tire of personal anecdotes about one's youth and >the lengths one went to to demonstrate one's love for one's music. such >reminiscences do little to boost one's musical credentials (since most of >us have had some analogous experiences). After reading a few meta-reviews of Gallo's _Construkction of Light_ review I decided to read it for myself. I'm not exactly sure why so many people here dismiss it so completely. I think the points he makes are fairly well presented, whether or not I agree with them in their entirety. It's clear that it's not so much a detailed review of the most recent KC album but a comment on societal changes that have occurred during the band's tenure and how they affected the band and they context in which the band finds itself. Much of it made perfect sense to me, although I happen to like _Construkction of Light_ and in no way perceive "Into the Frying Pan" as a radio-friendly song in this, or any, day and age. His point, and I think it's valid, is that the first album exploded onto the scene and had a huge impact. The latest album isn't going to have that effect, and he has presented some reasons why that will be so. A key one being that stereotypical "prog" fans and musicians of the past were more daring than those of the present. That may or may not be true. I don't know, but it has at least a partial ring of truth to me. Certainly many E-T posts seem conservative (not in the political sense). The other major point he makes is that rock music has become consumer-driven and very market-oriented making it hard for a band like KC to have an impact comaprable to _In the Court of the Crimson King_. I think there is a lot of merit in this idea. My primary complaints about the review are that he misused "effected" in the 3rd paragraph and he made some references about people and movies of which I have either never heard nor seen. This made it hard for me to put some of his comments into context. The review isn't a detailed critique of the album, but it isn't utterly without merit either. -- Ralph Foster Applied Physics Laboratory 1013 NE 40th St.; Seattle, WA; 98105-6698 ralph at apl dot washington dot edu; voice: (206) 685-5201; fax: (206) 543-6785 Alt: Box 355640, University of Washington; Seattle, WA, 98195-5640 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:38:43 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Positivity; The construction of light; Doctor Diamond >To whoever nominated ITWOP as the least liked album: I wanted to respond to this, but was afraid I'd slip into lecture/rant mode. Now let me just say - go to ET #1029 and read Scott Steele's post on the subject. Thank you Scott for your level-headed response to this question which pretty much sums up my views also. Thanks for singling me out David. It's my opinion that we say much more when we are positive than we do when we are negative (eg, "What's KC's worst song ever?" - several of the songs mentioned are among my favorites, such as Industry and Requiem for example). There are plenty of people on this list that wait for the opportunity to say something positive rather than leap on the first opportunity to say something negative - these are the messages I enjoy best, and they are the ones that inform me more. Next time you feel like dumping on KC, try stating your opinion in a positive way - tell us what you prefer. Moreover, we can't argue aesthetics - you like a song, or you don't, I like a song, or I don't. >The ConstruKction of Light is one of Crimson's weakest albums, being overly simplistic, lacking variety, having awful lyrics (not including ProzaKc Blues, but ESPECIALLY the corny Coda: I Have a Dream) and rehashing older Crimson songs. Not that it doesn't have its moments (I'm fond of ConstruKction of Light part 1 and FraKctured), but overall it was a very weak album. I saw TCoL as a response to all the fans who wanted the band to sound like the 1973 band and cover the 1973 songs. Rather than rehash the old songs, they wrote new ones that were similar to the old ones. Apparently, King Crimson should know better than to give us what we ask for - we'll grill them for it afterward. >After hearing some of the material from Level Five, especially Dangerous Curves, which is downright horrible, I fear Nuovo Metal is going to be Crimson's worst album yet. I think this is due to a lack of inspiration, and the fact that Crimson is limiting themselves to one sound; I say they should put aside the electronic drums, and make better use of their MIDI synths. Again, I really hope I'm proven wrong, but so far, I've seen no indication that Nuovo Metal is going to be anything other than a disaster. I'd like to hear your opinions on this matter. You want me to join you in your negative conjecture? Sorry, that's not a game I want to play. I'd rather wait for the album and react to it afterward. >Ps - anyone have thoughts on the track "Doctor Diamond" off of the Great Deceiver box set? I love it. They had a different arrangement for it too, which I have on a bootleg from Atlanta in 1973 - I prefer this arrangement, but it is very nice to have both to compare. - S. np: Adam Holzman, In a Loud Way scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:26:07 -0400 From: Brian Preston Subject: math rock/V drums/ET on NPR (again ?) Every time I have listened to a band referenced as "math rock" I have not seen and/or felt the mathness of it all. Maybe I am not properly exposed - the 'math rock' bands of the college scene seem to (seemed to?-is it not cool now?) sound like "alt.garage.tryingtoplaysomethingmorecomplexthanIhavetheskillstopulloff" type stuff. Ugh. (Though I havent heard Don C.that someone mentioned) So, what is the song Discipline? Can anyone really genre-ize that one for me? It changed my (musical) life in 1981. There is plenty of counting in that one. Math rock? It certainly influenced much of our writing from thence forward. We used to call it 'gamelan' style structures. (see Neural Pulse from Sirius Matter which uses a count of 30 with 5/8 and 6/8 interlocked for 6 and 5 measures respectively) For that matter - most of guitar craft practice technique is...very mathy. I have seen many comments about Masteletto's use of V drums on TCoL (and his other projects), most of it negative. I admit I too was not greatly warmed (pun intended) by those drum sounds. This was partly influential on SG's delimma re: use of Vdrums on Tarth Shooke. In the end we did and I must say we have grown to love them - Jeff(drummer and Vdrum owner) was the most reluctant - however, the well applied use of V drums in TS results, I dare say, in a very nice natural drum sound when sought after -and a twisted electonic drums sound when applied to that end. (check it out and comment: sound files @ CDbaby.com and MP3.) We have used Vdrums in several live shows and find that they are great in the house mix! (anyone at our recent Pre-progday show wish to comment?) And, just last week I heard NPR playing Elephant Talk in an interlude - dont remember which talk show it was - but always good to hear - you can imagine the stick part building up to the guitar crash just before the MC cuts in to the next segment - ugh- and we thinks 'shut up and let the Crim play!!' Over and out. BKP np: Cuneiform 2002 sampler (thanks Steve!) ************************************************************************* Brian Preston/Metaphoric Music Productions Smokin'Granny http://meta4ik.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/smokingranny2 (sound files) Krimson News Radio http://www.live365.com/stations/crim75 (SG in rotation!) Onomata http://www.umbrellarecordings.com/feature.html Groove Stream Attractor http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue20/groove01.html ******** ******** ******** ******** "When people are coupled together through musicking, each steers his or her own raft of subjectivity into the collective sea of neurodynamics." William Benzon in 'Beehtoven's Anvil: Music in Mind & Culture' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 19:39:44 +0000 From: "Dale cleary" Subject: Hi every one In response to "Any songs you hate?" No I don't hate any KC songs. I never liked the albums Earthbound and Islands though. In response to "Math rock". Music is "time" so maths are in all styles. Basically you have X amount of time to fit in whatever. There are many ways to count music. For instance an odd time such as 5 can become 10 depending on how it's counted. Bye all, Dale ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:35:23 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: Still waiting for USA! Hi all, I've seen many posts about the recent edition of USA on CD, and I must confess I feel a bit frustrated (I still could not get it!), as I'm from Argentina, and, as I'm sure you know, most imported things are extremely expensive because of inflation... including imported CD's. For example, think that one imported CD is about $50 pesos, when the present average salary is about !$400 pesos! What makes matters worse, is that record shops don't want to import this kind of stuff, because they are not sure they will be able to sell them, don't want to run the risk... They prefer to bring rubbish things, just like Britney Spears, or Pink, etc.... you know what I mean... All this situation makes me think about the copyright and the protection of the artists' rights on their works. I must say that I completely agree on that, as it should be hard and expensive for some young musicians to issue new albums (In sum, it's their creation, art they have originally created). But I also think that it is impossible for most of the people in my country to afford these CD's, so you can imagine how recordable CD's are being sold out here!. Therefore, I understand their position. Personally, I will always prefer to save money for an original CD rather than have the CD copied (provided I'm able to get it!). For me, the sleeve and the artwork are as important as the sound itself. Cheers, Marcelo Rosario - Argentina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:41:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Frank P Subject: How long does this stuff take!? Hi ET'ers, Vent Mode: ON How friggen long does it take to transfer a couple video's to DVD?! DGM has been "in the process" releasing the 80's vids for I don't know *how* long. Jeez! Oh, and how long has the KCCC 21 release been dangling in front of us?! *Seasons* have passed since these two items have been mentioned. I love DGM and the music and artists they support but enough with the product teasing! Vent Mode: OFF Thanks for reading. Frank Yahoo! News - Today's headlines ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:07:32 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Fripp-Gunn-Rieflin album Hello! I was reading this drum magazine (don't remember the name) with this interview to a drummer called Bill Rieflin; at the time (1999/2000 maybe) he had just released an album together with Trey Gunn and BobFripp called "The Repercusions of Angelical Behavior", supposedly an album made completely out of improvised music. Has anyone heard about this (probably did *shucks*)? If so, what can you tell me about it? Is it any good? BTW *risking to be bonked in the head*, someone suggested I should write Mr. BobFripp himself about the subject of using Crimson music on my web-toon. How could I contact him? [ I suggest you write to him c/o Discipline Global Mobile. -- Toby ] Ciaos...........! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:29:22 -0700 From: "David C." Subject: sharing music for non profit to the artist Although downloading and the sharing of burnt CD's between friends and whoever is bad practice the whole syndrome goes back to Philips introduction of the Cassette player back in 1963 and Sony's Beta in 1976 so to any of you who attempt to lecture us on the bozo no no's of downloading free music you are merely putting your own foot in your own mouth. Hold your breath. As far as the U.S goes it held back marketing the CD burner and now DVD recorders and finally surrendered to technology. The real kick in the butt for them is their dismayed reality that music sales are down. The CD format holds up to 79.57 minutes of music on most CD R's you can buy in the store as well as pre recorded discs and the downfall is 90% of today's artists can barely create 40 minutes of quality stand the test of time crafted music before it begins to repeat itself. Its artistic statement and the novelty of an already overhyped and over rated new artist is already exhausted and depleted. What on earth are they going to do for their 2nd attempt? Rest assured King Crimson may wait 2, 3, 4 years between recorded efforts but at least they offer us something substantial; and more homework to boot. In the past the majority of us have already taped live radio concerts off the airwaves and probably burned all those precious cassettes and certain vinyl on to CD. I recently bought a DVD recorder to preserve my archive VHS tape collection and I will do what I damn well please with it and what it was specifically designed for in the first place. If the technology is offered people can and will take advantage of it. Also of noteworthy interest for all the independent bands striving for attention and an attentitive audience to attend their night club gigs in Anytown, the World a great deal of them host their own sites and upload musical clips for listening and downloading pleasure especially on MP3. My band included. They are all subject to sharing but this is a known asset and great marketing tool. Here's for dropping a name: www.musicalpolyrhythms.com & www.thebandliquid.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:48:41 -0400 From: Tim Subject: Re: Copyright Tom Lord wrote: > Making a perfect copy of digital information is > not, a priori, stealing... > A popular comparison is to a sandwich: if I obtain your > lunch, you no longer have a lunch to eat; if I obtain a copy of your song > file, you do still have a copy. Really? OK, everybody line up for your FREE copies of Photoshop, Maya, Quark, Illustrator, heck, any software you got! We're just copying, right? I'm sure Adobe et. al. won't mind a bit!! To extend your analogy, if you obtain a copy of my song (which you won't pay me for), and if everyone else does too (and also won't pay me for), then guess what? No income for me, no sandwich, NO LUNCH! See how that works? Bottom line-if something is being SOLD by someone (a song, a sandwich, whatever), and you deliberately get one for yourself to use in the way it was intended (to listen to, to eat, whatever), without paying the person who made it (either directly or through a distributor like a store), THEN YOU FREAKIN' STOLE IT! And we'll have none of this, "it's OK because its digital" nonsense; if it ain't yours, and you took it, and you didn't pay for it, you stole it. >The saddest part, though, is the uncivil tone you took with, for >example: > so it's ok to steal if it's done cheaply and easily? Is that > what you'd teach a child? I think the original comment was right on. It wasn't uncivil, it was the truth. It's a shame people hide behind a loophole-ridden reading of the law to justify what they should know deep down is just plain wrong. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:19:04 -0700 From: "Ehrcraft" Subject: Re: Correct -Why Crim, Yes, etc. Hello, In ET # 1027 "Jack Bross" wrote, >"My two cents on the question of following Prog Rock bands over time: Jethro Tull: Still enjoy Aqualung, Thick as a Brick, and some of their other stuff, but stopped listening to new stuff a long time ago. I considered them a joke even before they won that "heavy metal" grammy, and recently passed up free JT concert tickets."< Well... Jethro Tull never won a "heavy metal" Grammy. Thay won the "Best Hard Rock/Metal Performance Vocal or Instrumental" Grammy Award. The first and last time this category was in the Grammy's. I know Metallica crying on stage after losing was hard for some people, but now I'm waiting for you to tell us that Jethro Tull are not "hard rock". As for you passing up Tull tickets...If you don't want to see one of the best guitarists (Martin Barre) and one of the tightest bands out there for free...I guess the joke is on you! -Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:49:55 +0200 From: "Eddy de Causmaecker" Subject: Subject: Re: Songs You Hate! Am I perhaps the only one who likes all Crim music? I DON'T HATE ANY SONGS!!! SORRY! Best wishes to all, Eddy Flycatcher. flycatcher at zeelandnet dot nl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:58:13 +0100 From: "Mike Dennis" Subject: Least Favourite Tracks Having followed this debate I notice that it tends to be either the slower, softer ballad-like tracks or the more experimental ones that people dislike. I suspect that this is predictable given what the bulk of KC's music has been like over the years - if they only played one or two tracks you liked most people would give up on them. I can't say I actually dislike any track to the point where I wont play it or rush to the controls to move on to the next one. The guy who played somebody else's dislike track at his wife's funeral makes a very good point - its all to do with when you heard it the first time and what it means to you. My previous posting on first hearing KC bears this out, ITCCK and LTA will always be important because of the impact they made. Lastly, things grow on you. When I first heard Discipline it was so different from anything that had gone before, the vocals on the opening track (Elephant Talk) seemed so out of place. But.. with time I liked it (isn't that a lyric of that album somewhere!) Mike Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:49:25 +0200 From: Joerg dot Reinicke at LBBW dot de Subject: 21st Century Schizoid Band Hi everybody, the 21st Century Schizoid Band now has its own website on www.21stcenturyschizoidband.com which has already been mentioned here, but imho it should be included in ET's links pages. There is also talk of their Official Bootleg CD taken from band rehearsals possibly to be available in the merchandise section very soon. So far it can only be purchased directly at the gigs, but I can imagine that people in other parts of the world who are not able to catch them at one of their UK gigs might be interested in that CD as well. So let's wait and see what the future may bring. Even more interesting might be if they will ever come up with some original material and release this as well. Best regards, Joerg Reinicke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:38:06 -0700 From: "adam" Subject: USA, Vocal Distortion I always thought that USA had the best performance (for that era) of 21st Century Schizoid Man, if only because of the distortion that they use on the vocals. For me the album is worth it for perhaps that one song. That may be silly. In all of the other versions of this song (of that era) that exist, i don't seem to remember the use of vocal distortion being that prominent. Am i wrong in all this? I don't recall any other performances that have real strong, powerful distortion on the vocals. -adam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:13:34 -0400 From: "chris cunningham" Subject: file sharing death _That_, to borrow your phrase, is a true example of "moral decay": an ad hominem attack in response to a gentle pointer to an alternative point of view. (I'm sorry you took my remarks that way. When discussions become mired in miles of rhetoric it is occasionally useful to "cut to the chase". Apologies Anybody know what ad hominem means? I failed Latin.) iirc, "to the man" as opposed to "to the argument", i.e. addressing the arguer's (perceived) flaws rather than those of the argument. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:14:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Cohen Subject: Kill the File Sharing thread, PLEASE???? Some intellectual giant raised the level of discourse immeasurably by posting: 'It recently occured to me that compared to the music publishing industry, the book publishing industry has been seriously remiss in protecting its intellectual property. This revelation came when I realized that my town (like many others) has a taxpayer-supported institution called a "Public Library."' Well, I think we've discussed this issue about as much as we need to (by a factor of at least 10). Can we please kill this thread now? --Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:15:52 -0400 From: "Abel Calvo" Subject: USA/First Encounter with KC/file-sharing Hello, friends of ET. Greetings from Caracas, Venezuela. Just wanted to share some thoughts and stories. A couple of days ago I went to a record store to buy the LTIA remaster. It had been difficult for me to find it, but when I got to the store, there it was, just waiting for me. I grabbed it as soon as I saw it, and then I wandered through the store looking at other CDs. Some minutes later the dealer came to me and said "Hey, I got the USA and Earthbound remasters, too". I told him I hadn't seen them on the shelf, but he answered he had just kept the last ones for him, but when he saw that I knew Crimson, he was so glad he thought he would give me the opportunity to have them. For financial reasons I just bought USA along with LTIA. I have to say I was just blown away by both albums. I'm a relatively new listener to KC. I first heard about them about 7 years ago when I was listening to a rock show on the radio, and they broadcasted Epitaph. The announcer identified it as KC and the next day I bought The Concise KC. If I liked Epitaph, 21CSM completely blew me away. I was a metal head (still am, though with a much broader sense of musical taste), and I never thought that a non-heavy-metal band could play music so INTENSE. Then I bought Thrak, but afterwards I lost the KC trail until around a year ago. I have to say that I recovered it through ET. When I found about it over the Internet, it revived my interest in the band. Since then I've got The First Three (the dutch boxset), TCOL, Cirkus, Heavy ConstruKction, Discipline and Vroom Vroom. It has been quite a trip that I'll share on later postings. One last note on "file-sharing" or "internet-theft". As it is seemingly a never-ending fight, I've come up with what I think could be a good solution, or at least a good starting point. The artists/record companies should reach some kind of agreement with the the file-sharing sites, in order to get them to make available music but on a very low quality, you know, maybe mono or something (and perhaps not downloadable, just "listenable" on line--although you can record what you hear on the radio). That way, people could get to know new artists, or new music by known artists, but if they'd like to have it in good quality, they would have to buy the CD. What do you think about it? I just tried to avoid the ideological aspects of the discussion, and focused on a strictly practical side. I'm not a downloader myself, but I gave it some thought and came up with this idea (may be someone else already thought about it). See ya in a bit! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:19:31 EDT From: IanSharwood at aol dot com Subject: Cd versus Vinyl I am in two minds regarding this subject. The absence of crackle and pop on ancient albums when listened to in cd format is wonderful but I have discovered missing "information" on cd's that has been verified by interested friends. I have a heavy weight vinyl copy of "In the Court" which I bought in 1971 which has guitar parts on Schizoid Man that don't appear on any of the re-mastered cd's (and I have all of them). I suspect this is due to the fact that the vinyl was mastered from an earlier generation "master". From memory, I gather that all the cd's were mastered from a substandard master with degradation on one channel. If the original multitrack master were to turn up, with the technology available today, I believe we would be in for a real treat! Ian Sharwood. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:21:24 +0200 From: "Jan Berends" Subject: The songs you hate... hi everyone... You may kill me in every way you want to... but I don't like ITCOTCK. Don't ask me why, I think it's a matter of taste and thereforeI believe there's no discussion possible about that. I'm aware of the influance the song had to music in general, I agree that is has (and is) therefore an important song, but I simply don't like it.. sorry... One of my favourite's is Cat Food, Easy Money is a song I like very much and, if you want to know some of the latest KC-songs I like, Deception Of The Thrush and Thrak (I love the apparently chaos in it, the bass seeming the only constant factor), are among them. Regards, Jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:39:00 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Thanks Toby; A Man A City; the MSN channel that comes up when >>I would defer to Mike Dickson here but since McLaughlin is Scottish I would expect that his name is pronounced McGlocklin. That's how Tony Williams said it, when I saw him in a drum clinic. >[ No, John McLaughlin is English, born in Yorkshire -- Toby ] Hot dang. I live and learn. Thanks sir. >A Man, a City. 21st CSB played this? Wow. - S. np: The MSN radio channel that comes up when you say you like King Crimson. This is fascinating - so far I've heard two tracks from the young person's guide to the Projects, but also some Townshend, Tull, Rush, Robt Plant, Thinking Fellers' Union Local 242, and Rhythm and Noise. The latter two got pretty close to the ambient side of Crimson but the old fellows weren't very much like KC in my opinion. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1035 *********************************