Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1031 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1031 Sunday, 15 September 2002 Today's Topics: USA/ is Earthbound worth it? Re: the term "math rock" Egg more Re: the term "math rock" Re: Songs you hate! title of the new crimson ep Phases of Crim; KC in Video Games?? Proper "KC in Video Games??" file sharing Re: RE the great deciever Anakdoten math rock Vince Gallo's review of ConstuKtion Re: The Devil's Triangle ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:17:16 GMT From: et-read at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: USA/ is Earthbound worth it? Jordan Clifford wrote... > And I do really like the rest of the album, I just get tired of incomplete > live experiances... I almost feel like there is no point. Why cut of Easy > Money? Why would they leave out Fracture and Starless, two incredible > amazing songs, in the original album? Well, the new USA CD is 67 minutes long. The original album apparently came on something called 'vinyl' for which the maximum playing time was around the fifty minute mark before the sound quality dropped hopelessly. (INTERLUDE: A recent visit to the local branch of Richer Sounds found me standing next to a guy with his eight or nine year old son. The boy pointed at the turntables and said 'what are *they*?' I found myself suddenly afflicted with grey hair, impotence and arthritis.) FWIW, the fade on 'Easy Money' was remarked on when the record was originally released in 1975. I have one review here (somewhere) where the reviewer knocks one 'star' from the overall rating for 'poor editing' (by which I assume he means the missing piece of 'Easy Money') but where he rewards them with half a star for 'good overdubs'! > However, Can anyone tell me what the pro's and con's are to getting the > EARTHBOUND remaster? The pro is that you don't have to play your 'vinyl' any longer. The con is that I can no longer gain admittance to fancy parties simply on the strength of me owning 'Earthbound'. Damn DGM. Oh yes. And it has a Big Drum Solo. Mike Dickson Elephant Talk Administration and Distribution ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:59:31 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: the term "math rock" >Some friends and I once invented(?) the term "math rock" to describe >music that is created through the mathematically clever composition of >patterns. Polyrythms, even if their creators didn't think of them >that way, are a classic example (relative primality, explained as >music). I hate to burst your bubble, but the term "math rock" has been around for quite some time. The most notable example being Don Caballero (from Pittsburg, I believe). At times they sound like a hyper-complex/polyrhythmic Red-era Krimson. Great band! http://www.southern.com/southern/band/DONCA/biog.html http://www.geocities.com/brikelly/doncab/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:18:19 +0200 From: "Van Polly uit St. Paul's"

Subject: Egg more Hi, After reading the postings about Egg, I got curious and tried to download some songs, which to my surprise went pretty good. Then off to the record store to see, whether the albums were still available, because they're pretty good. And once more to my surprise I found that The Polite Force is still available through a Japanese company. I got it ordered and now I'm waiting for my shipment to come in. It's pretty expensive though ( 25,-). Paul Logman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:41:36 -0600 From: "amelia ray" Subject: Re: the term "math rock" i do believe the term is in general circulation. general enough that my bandmates and i decided to call my music 'math blues.' a lot of counting, alot of soul, and alot of whiskey. i can't think of any recent examples of math rock, though. when trying to think of bands that make me count, i am at a loss...just kc, yes, and sometimes rush. maybe ponty. on an off-note, someone mentioned the band meshuggah on this list. thanks for doing so! they've got a great sound. at first, the vocals were a little off-putting, but i got used to them becuse the music is so wonderful. -amelia -- http://www.ameliaray.net '...general principles should not be based on exceptional cases.' -robert j. sawyer, calculating god -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:29:13 -0600 From: "MSc. Christian Hess Araya" Subject: Re: Songs you hate! "DiMaso, Phil (Elk)" wrote: > Greetings, > Is anyone willing to admit what song(s) you absolutely hate by Crim? For me, that would be "Providence", "Industry", and "Dig Me". Instant skip overs. Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:14:48 -0300 From: "Jonathan Boulter" Subject: title of the new crimson ep Perhaps it's a clever quotation; perhaps it's a deliberate irony. Does the title of the new Crimson EP strike anyone as being, well, odd? "Happy to Be Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With" sounds more like something Frank Burns from M*A*S*H would say--"It's nice to be nice to the nice"--than the title of a King Crimson work. Will this be the title of the new CD? Gad. Again, if I've missed some crucial information here please let me know: maybe the title is something Kant came up with after a hard night's thinking. Perhaps not. Perhaps I think the title does not bode well for a great work. But what's in a name? (A great deal, it turns out.) My best to all true lovers of Crimson, Jonathan Boulter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:09:52 -0400 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: Phases of Crim; KC in Video Games?? An ET'er a few issues back had put together a list of adjectives to describe King Crimson's various periods and their album counterparts (i.e. Lark's was "mysticism," Red was "power," etc.). I found the idea particularly intriguing. I often try similar association games with pieces of art and literature...many of them seem to have a central pivot. In KC's case, I think each album is unique. 1. In the Court of the Crimson King: Prophecy. The songs all have a quality about them that is forward-looking, from the post-apocalypticism of "21CSM" to the...post-apocalypticism of "Epitaph." The others are not socially prophetic, but they have a sense of building up to something dramatic, as the title track (which is incidentally the final song on the album) seems to be preparing the listener for some royal arrival. 2. In the Wake of Poisedon: Balance. On one side of the spectrum are three songs entitled "Peace." On the other side..."The Devil's Triangle." In the middle we have a furious rant juxtaposed with a ballad ("Pictures of a City" vs. "Cadence and Cascade") followed by a romantic, lyrical piece matched with pure silliness (title track vs. "Cat Food.") 3. Lizard: Theatricality. Song topics include a circus, games, The Beatles (who were quite theatrical in their day), etc.. The title track unfolds almost like a Greek play. In the end, just when you think Fripp's solo has the last word, "Big Top" comes in to re-establish the theme of carnival and theatre. 4. Islands: Wandering. It's pretty self-explanatory. The opening track was written by Sinfeld as he wandered some picturesque island aimlessly. All of the other songs portray a drifting sort of idea, with the motifs of sailors, gulls, the open road, the sea, and infidelity (certainly a valid example of wandering!). 5. Lark's Tongues in Aspic: Self-Knowledge. Bookended by two instrumentals that are probing and meditative in style, the remaining three lyrical songs describe three levels of relationship: participant in society ("Easy Money"), participant in at least one other person ("Book of Saturday"), and finally, cut off from others ("Exiles"). The common thread in all of these situations is the brooding, contemplative approach that seems to suggest the theme I described. 6. Starless and Bible Black: Incompleteness. "The Great Deceiver" and "Lament" are sarcastic and irreverent to authority figures, implying a lack of substance in both the Church and the record industry. The other songs are often clipped at the end, like "The Mincer" and "We'll Let You Know," another piece that is cynical at least in its title. "Fracture," of course, is aimed at conveying a sense of missing ingredients. 7. Red: Menace. Need I say more? 8. Discipline: Order. And the theme of order is best shown, in this case, by providing an antithesis to it; "Indiscipline." 9. Beat: Estrangement. In terms of King Crimson album, it does sort of stick out from the rest. In a way, it appears to be a quest towards home...from the travel-sick musings on side one to the reminiscence and delirium of side two, resting finally at "Requiem," which is recognizably Crimson territory. 10. Three of a Perfect Pair: Duality. The left side, the right side, etc.! This is slightly different than ITWOP's balance theme, because the songs do not each have counterparts...it's simply pop in one corner, weird stuff in the other corner. There is a thread of wanting to be accepted in Belew's lyrics ("Dig Me," "Model Man"). 11. Thrak: Conditioning. The onomatopoetic songs ("VROOOM," "THRAK," et al) are indicative of some machine, some repetitious activity. There are moments of relative freedom in the Soundscape pieces, and visits to different degrees of human conditioning in the lyrical pieces, from the primal expression of "B'boom" through "People" into resignation ("Walking on Air"). 12. The ConstruKction of Light: Repetition. The album is full of backward-looking elements...the blues cliche`, frequent mention of past KC song titles, another Fracture, another Lark's Tongues in Aspic, another ProjeKct, and so on. The interlocking guitar vocabulary of the title track is very repetitious, both in its actual style and in the fact of its existence back in the 80's. Prophecy, Balance, Theatricality, Wandering, Self-Knowledge, Incompleteness, Menace, Order, Estrangement, Duality, Conditioning, Repetition... The new album titles! (c: I think too much. Or...too much, I think. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:14:41 -0400 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: Proper "KC in Video Games??" My last post had two intended topics, but the first one got out of hand, which made me rapidly forget about the second one. So, quickly, here it is: a PlayStation video game called Silent Hill exists, and I just thought I'd mention how incredibly 70's/90's Crimson-esque the background music is...as well as the general mood! It's a horror game, with a very intelligent, very Lovecraftian plot. There's also a sequel, also with similar music and mood. I would definitely compare some of the more terrifying moments in the Silent Hill video games to the more terrifying moments of King Crimson music, definitely. I'm a teenager, so I waste my life playing video games...sorry. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:38:50 -0400 From: "Mark & Josette" Subject: file sharing Tom writes: There is an argument in the opposite direction, and I think it is a very sound argument. It is a property of Nature that digital information may be cheaply and freely copied. It is only through the intervention of social institutions that it can not be freely copied, and often, those interventions operate via an ultimate and unlimited threat of violence. (so it's ok to steal if it's done cheaply and easily? Is that what you'd teach a child?) The pressing issue here is the need for new ways of doing business -- to find some that both permit file sharing _and_ reward creators. To fault people for file sharing is like faulting them for breathing or looking at picturesque mountains. It is simply absurd. ( The air and moutains were created by the Creator or by nature and He/She has not expressed a problem with us using them) Some of the political writings at www.gnu.org elaborate on these points at length. (i did not Gno that, I'll check it out) You could say: "People should respect the old institutions while new ones are being built", but any much stronger condemnation than that borders (at least) on hysteria or (literally) facism. ( well hell I'm gonna go print up some cash then, ain't no facist gonna tell me what to do) It's odd. When I read RF's writings on copyright, I have the strong sense that he is opposed to file sharing and similar phenomenon. Yet I also have the sense that we would agree about the historic abuses of the business world. The solutions lie in the direction of _freedom_ for people, not restrictions. (I don't think RF likes people stealing candy from his store) Those who share files "illegally" (scare quotes because the laws they allegedly break run square into basic human rights) are collectively nailing an important document to a church door. (the basic human right to steal provides for punishment for those who get caught, and for those who don't get caught they will suffer internal disease from sublimation their wrongful activities. Or else they are sociapaths with no conscience. This is just my opinion. I don't run the world, thankfully for file sharers Have you file shared an expensive product like Photoshop? Where pray tell do we draw the line? In Kazaa and Morpheus and the like VERY high dollar stuff is available. But hey, as long as it's easy and cheap to take them, it must be ok according to the above logic?) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:40:38 -0500 From: "Brandon S." Subject: Re: RE the great deciever IN #1029, someone mentioned buying "The Great Deciever" via DGM. This is the best way to go. The artists involved not only recieve more royalties this way, and not only will it arrive within a week (I don't think they have shipping options yet?) but it also is the cheapest way to go. I've seen "TGD" on amazon for over $150.00 used, and I don't even think they carry it new. DGM is the best place to find KC materials, and if they don't have it, the artist shop probably does (i'm afraid to put in links, my emails w/ links never get posted!). Hope this is helpful to anyone who is considering buying items from DGM. BS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:09:36 -0400 From: "Louis Sormany" Subject: Anakdoten In ET 1028, Eddy wrote: "If anyone is looking for Crim-resembling music from the LTiA/SaBB/Red period I suggest listening to the Swedish band "ANEKDOTEN" You won't regret it! http://www.anekdoten.se/ " I agree with that comment. Anekdoten is one of my prefered group. Don't miss it! Louis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:53:02 +1000 (EST) From: Will Dayble Subject: math rock There seems to be a disturbing trend with me posting about Meshuggah... well here goes again. The 'math rock' category seems only to have been brought about by the indie bands that went overtly 'brainy' kinda early 90s, even though (of course) mathy music had been around for god knowns how long before... A lot of avant guarde jazz etc I wouldn't exactly coin 'math'. The one big thing about 'math', be it rock or jazz or metal is (in my view) polyrhthm, as odd meters and tempo/timing changes are really not as much a defining _thing_... I can't remember who said it, but I'm pretty sure they were from (fittingly enough) some post-emo indie rock band... saying that what defines something as 'math' is the need to use maths to write/understamd the music. This is where the polyrhythms come in. If you are playing with multiple time signatures then working out when stuff meets up/repeats etc is a very definite mathsey thing. People around the math-metal scene have come to know the polyrhythm style used by Meshuggah as 'Meshuggah 4/4' (even though a lot of it is around the 64/8 mark), and it's the best staple-diet _math_ rock (well, metal) I can think of. What this has to do with anything I'm not totally sure, I'm very tired right now so I'll be quiet. :\ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 03:05:04 -0400 From: Michael W Sabol Subject: Vince Gallo's review of ConstuKtion Maybe it's the spark needed to get God, I mean Fripp, to get in tune with POP Music? This coming from a Progressive Rock diehard, who's been trying his best to continually keep up with the all the Prog Rock bands from around the world since the 70's! Lets hear it for The Flower Kings, Spocks Beard, Porcupine Tree, and Marillion. These are some great examples of Prog Rock bands K.C. should of toured with instead of Tool. Tool is more Industrial Gothic, than Prog Rock and that is what kind of a band I always thought K.C. is, aren't they? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:34:23 +0200 From: "Eddy de Causmaecker" Subject: Re: The Devil's Triangle RE: The Devil's Triangle. I think this song just tries too hard ot be something it isn't and winds up being 10+ minutes of something that barely resembles music. Listen to classic album "The Planets" by Gustav Holst, play the track "Mars" then you will discover the real magic behind "THe Devil's Triangle" It saddens me that someone refers to my favourite Crim track as "barely resembles music"..... Greetings from Eddy Flycatcher flycatcher at zeelandnet dot nl ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1031 *********************************