Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1030 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1030 Saturday, 14 September 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: Bears Live Re: FX on Boz/Haskell`s vocals Re: math rock Re: math rock Re: Songs you hate! Proper pronunciation Focus 8 Re: Songs You Hate! Egg and KC? I'd say High Tide! Use of Crimso Music on WEB cartoons Songs you hate! McDonald & Giles; USA; Egg Re: Egg 21st Century Prisoner Guitar Craft Re: Songs you hate!/crimso music in web cartoons Show some respect Vincent Gallo's ConstruKCtion of Light review Re: USA ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:12:17 -0400 From: "Block Dog" Subject: NEWS: Bears Live The new Bears Live is available now ! Recorded on Tour last February and presented without studio overdubbing...... I just wish they had thrown in their version of "Red". Track Listing: honeybee what's the good of knowing dave robobo's beef mr. bonaparte under the volcano success little blue river as you are trust complicated potatoes figure it out caveman man behind the curtain Order from: 1-800-859-8401 Or http://www.artist-shop.com International customers need to order from The Artist Shop ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:45:52 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: FX on Boz/Haskell`s vocals > I may be wrong but I really do not think many musos would want someone > deciding on their effect, again a pre-arrangement is a different > matter. Grateful Dead are an interesting case in this regard. *WHATEVER* you think of their music (let's not get into that side of it, please, it's an old and tedious argument), as an organization they were from the beginning absolutely obsessed with providing brain-filling concert sound. The brilliant (and obsessive) folks they had working for them were often many years ahead of their time, and at the team's best I have never heard a band come -- even sort of -- close to the sonic marvels of which they were capable. Of course this worked best in venues with which they had greatest experience. The control of the three-dimensional sound field sometimes bordered on flat-out witchery. (In case anyone feels tempted to interject something tiresome about drugs at this point -- let me answer your questions with "no, obvious, irrelevant" and "weren't paying attention". Let it go and move on.) The band did their thing, of course, but their fingers, instruments, choices, effects and programmming were only part of the team's equation. The point man for a lot of this over many years of the band's history was Dan Healy. He would fuck with the band's concert sound with great liberty (though normally much less overt than the distortions which engendered this discussion.) He was, as several who never actually appeared on stage, a significant component of what sounds made it out to the audience. In the end, though, they kicked him out. I haven't a clue what the precipitating issues actually were. (Widely reputed to be an asshole, for instance, but that never seemed to stop anyone in the organization and who the heck knows; not me for sure.) All I do know is that he was replaced by a guy -- John Cutler -- who kept the band's sound tight and level in the stadiums they were ultimately forced to play. David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:03:57 +0100 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: Re: math rock Hi, I was wondering when the math-rock debate would come round! So... "One, two, free, four..!" Tom Lord wrote: > Some friends and I once invented(?) the term "math rock" to describe > music that is created through the mathematically clever composition of > patterns. Polyrythms, even if their creators didn't think of them > that way, are a classic example (relative primality, explained as > music). I've been wondering if this term is in general circulation. > Have others heard it? Jim MacGregor replied: > Just curious as to when you started using this term. To my knowledge, it > was one of the first sub-catagories of what has come to be known as > "indie" music. First heard applied in the very early 90's to such > artists as the sweeping majesty of Slint and the concentrated sideways > super-crunch of Bastro, as well as groups such as Breadwinner, Rodan, > Gastr del Sol, Bitch Magnet and the titanic Don Caballero. > ...there are currently a few groups actively playing who fall more or > less into this catagory - I would point out Baltimore MD's Oxes and > No(?)CA's The F*cking Champs, both of who actually "take the precision of > metal without the metal" and actually ease the metal back into it. > Fantomas are the extreme epitome of everything previously discussed. And > don't get me started on Tool's Lateralus. Adding to this from a British perspective, I would cite the late, great Monsoon Bassoon and the similarly late and great German band Podsdarapomuk (who bemused and delighted London audiences for several years during the mid-90s). I'd also cite several currently active British groups such as Foe, Nought, 4 Tet, Delicate AWOL, Mogwai, Ursa and (on the electronica side) Max Tundra as being inspired examples of British math-rock. Many of the latter (especially the London-based crews) revere American math-rockers such as F*cking Champs, Storm And Stress, Fantomas/Mike Patton and Don Cabellero, and have been busily working out their own British spin on the idea. The other great structural/expressive influence on many of these groups is Cardiacs, Tim Smith's bizarre "pronk" band who've been releasing music since 1983 and regularly spin out complex and enthralling twelve-tone, multi-chordal, multiple-time-signature structures which also have a powerful and earsplitting pop kick to them. I've been listening to these bands for nearly a decade now, and tend to consider what they do as being "nerve music". That's not a label, more an assessment. As popular music consumers we've been conditioned to respond to the expressive melodic and narrative qualities of blues and folk music rather than to strict classical structure. Traditional prog fans, of course, respond to the echoes of Romantic classicism reworked within an extended rock context. Unsurprisingly, most listeners tend to balk at uncompromising and abrasive cerebrally-structured directions in music. (Which is one reason why Crim's unsympathetic fellow-travellers and contemporaries Henry Cow are still far more of a cult than Crim is). However, I've noticed that certain audiences do respond with a genuine primal and intoxicated delight to the musical weaving and constructions of math-rockers. These compositions might not have the human directness or accessibility of great pop, rock, blues or folk songs, but they seem able to stimulate people in a radically different but equally rewarding way. To wax poetic for a moment - the music might bypass the heart, but it goes straight into the nerves and brain and sets people dancing. Jim continued: > "Math Rock" based on my understanding, having grown up listening to music > deemed as such, tended to be used to describe music that stood apart from > your REMs and grungy rock songwriting, instead focusing on an almost > clinical precision of tonal and metered placement/arrangement. In > retrospect, it seems plainly obvious that this is the distance split > between prog rock and punk rock Over here in Britain this hybrid is often referred to as "pronk", though that label has quaint connotations these days... Again, the preeminent group in the field are Cardiacs - as regards quaintness, they have been known to wear English history and cultural trappings like a strange misshapen overcoat. Jim again: > Math Rock has been described as "the precision of metal without the > metal." That's pretty close to what I've experienced. Point being, you > have to be a pretty seasoned & articulate player to execute music with > the necessary deliberation. Or, at least, you need to possess the correct intention. I've noticed that a lot of math-rock musicians aren't at a jazz, prog, or even "classic rock" level of technique, but do have an extreme conceptual willpower to shape their music with. They also generally possess a very punky approach to minimalism and to avoiding flowery decoration. I've also noticed that a lot of math-rockers talk like rock dudes, love Black Sabbath and have had at least flirtations with Iron Maiden fandom in their formative years... And Jim remarked: > Math Rock as a term became pretty passe with the coining of "post-rock" as > the catch all for music created and performed under the radar of popular > music, involving amalgamations of various genres ie: free jazz is not post > rock, alt country is not post rock, granola jam rock is not post rock, but > take one person from each genre, stick them together without expectation, > and the product of their chemistry will probably hit close to the > more-or-less unspoken definition of post rock. Personally, I don't think that the "math rock" label has become any more passe than any other label that's been around for more than five years. And I think that although there's a definite overlap between math rock and post rock, the latter does not completely engulf the former. Nor does the former dominate the latter. As I understand it, as well as the "recombinant" aspect of genre-minglings, post rock's essential feature is the breaking-up of the hegemony/hierarchy of conventional rock instrumentation, method, structure and purpose. This is achieved by several methods - the use of unusual instrumentation; the application of noise, chance hazard or deliberate disruption; alternative approaches to texture and to sound balance; deconstructive songwriting; the application of feminine/feminist concepts to masculine idioms, and so on. But as the music tends to have been rooted in (or come through) various breeds of rock music, it retains much of the structural associations of rock rather than linking to free jazz. Of course, sometimes this is affected by the fact that most post-rock musicians aren't anywhere near the same technical level as jazzers. But certainly the ideas of straight soloing or focussing on one particular instrument to the detriment of the others are both discouraged. As are the concepts of certain players assuming heroic roles, or reinforcing specific gender/socio-political concepts (OK, folks, that's just about the last of the academia-speak, I promise...) Actually, using the criteria I've listed above, there is a case for arguing that Henry Cow were one of the first post-rock bands. Cue a tongue-lashing from Chris Cutler?... ;-) For what it's worth, I believe that King Crimson fulfil a few post-rock criteria - especially on "Larks' Tongues In Aspic" and "THRaKaTTaK", and on pieces like "Indiscipline" and "Neurotica". But due to the forces of immediate history and cultural background (and, arguably, force of audience!), they have always remained essentially "rock". There's no way that characters like Greg Lake or John Wetton would've challenged cultural orthodoxy. And despite Adrian's avant-garde sonic approach he remains pretty much a regular American guy and (increasingly) regular-guy songwriter. Robert and Bill have probably pushed the intellectual and cultural envelope out further than anyone else in the band - but only *so* far when it comes to making music. Of course, Robert's Soundscapes are a different matter altogether. And Crimson are almost certainly math rock godfathers. Certainly all ProjeKCts bar P1 have had a very strong math-rock element, intentional or otherwise. The "Discipline"-era was decidedly math-rock and probably launched a lot of math-rockers on their current paths (even if few will admit it). And I've certainly heard some Mogwai pieces which are as much "Starless And Bible Black" as they are Slint (try "Xmas Steps", for one...) OK, I'll quit rambling and hand over to the next person... keep this thread going... cheers, Dann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:47:08 -0400 From: "Jack Bross" Subject: Re: math rock I've mostly seen the term "math rock" used for Slint ("Spiderland" -- incredible album) and the many bands that were formed by geeks who listened to Spiderland and decided they had to form their own band. I seem to recall RF joking about how Crim was starting to do math rock (or maybe Trey Gunn?) in his diary during the recording of the TCOL album, as the multiple rhythms in one of the tunes (LTIA IV, perhaps?) were getting awfully complicated. -- Jack Bross ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 01:10:02 -0500 From: tonyola Subject: Re: Songs you hate! > Greetings, > Is anyone willing to admit what song(s) you absolutely hate by Crim? Do you > play all of their CD's from start to finish, or is there always certain > songs you skip over? I think just because you're a big fan of the band > doesn't mean you blindly love everything they put out. Let's hear what YOU > think! > Cheers, > Phil DiMaso > > Lady of the Dancing Water - Gordon Haskell really shows his limits as a singer in this twee little ballad. Prelude: Song of the Gulls - this clumsily written and played mock-classic piece sounds like a bad first-semester composition assignment. Moonchild - the main theme is actually pretty nice, but the endless and aimless pitty-pat middle section spoils this song for me. Three clinkers out of a 20+ year catalog is still a pretty damn good track record. Tony Evans ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:23:19 +1000 From: "prof. Dawid" Subject: Proper pronunciation Hello Not being a native speaker of English I come across some problems with a proper pronunciation of names. As you know English is a weird language especially as far as names go, so many people try to pronounce the names in different ways. Even journalists who actually meet the people, later tend to say it in their own way. One of the most controversial names is Ade Belew. I don't know how to say it properly. It can be: /eid 'bi:lju:/, /ed 'beleu/, /ade 'belu:/ and other mixes. Another thing is if Bruford is /bruford/ or /braford/, Jamie Muir /dzaemi: mue/, /me:/ or something else. Is Giles /gails/ or /dzails/, sinfield /zinfild/ or /sinfild/. Other groups also have some highlights like: Neil Peart /piet/, /pe:t/ of Rush or Steve Howe /hau/ or /heu/? And the famous John McLaughlin /mak'laflin'/ or /mak'laklin'/? A completely different story is with the titles. How do you say "1ii2"? /one, eye, eye, two/? Is there anybody as patient as to deal with that problem and maybe provide some more stuff like that? Ta! Dave -- http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:47:03 -0400 From: "Steven Paul Rewa B. S." Subject: Focus 8 So, is everyone as excited about the release of the new Focus album as I am? Unfortunately, I don't have any solid information on Focus 8. Anybody who wants to try and help me out with said info can e-mail me privately. Anon, -Steve [ Unless someone can dream up a [ PLAUSIBLE! ] Fripp / KC connection, can we take subsequent Focus discussion to private email please. :-) Thanks --Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:41:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Darin Lemieux" Subject: Re: Songs You Hate! Hello, There's not alot of Crimso that I totally despise, but I do have a couple. 1) The Devil's Triangle. I think this song just tries too hard ot be something it isn't and winds up being 10+ minutes of something that barely resembles music. 2) Providence: Beocmes something great, but takes too long to get there - should be much shorter. 3) Requiem: This song is almost just plain noise. Neurotica makes more musical sense (that's saying alot). There's more, I'm sure - but I'm tired and bed is calling. Later, Darin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:01:16 +1000 From: "prof. Dawid" Subject: Egg and KC? I'd say High Tide! >Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:03:02 -0600 >From: "MSc. Christian Hess Araya" >Subject: Egg and KC? > >I've been told there was an early 70's British band called Egg, that in >many ways resembles the LTIA to "Red" period of KC (which is my personal >favorite). Does anyone have any info on them? If so, which albums should I >look for? Thanks in advance. > >Christian Hess >San Jose, Costa Rica Go to www.allmusic.com and look for more stuff like Egg. There are dozens of great bands playing like them from so-called Canterbury scene. However if you like KC 72-74 I'm sure you'll like a band called High Tide. If you don't believe - read their bio! Greetings Dave EGG - An overlooked classical rock trio that had both the talent and sound of Emerson, Lake, and Palmer without the bombast or success, Egg comprised of organist Dave Stewart (not the one in the Eurythmics), bassist/vocalist Mont Campbell, and Clive Brooks formed in July, 1968 from the ashes of Uriel/Arzachel after their guitarist, Steve Hillage left to study philosophy at the University of Kent. The band never made it on a major scale, as their music was too grandiose and challenging to garner a mainstream audience. It's a shame, because Campbell had a powerful set of vocal cords, and the group WAS capable of composing shorter, finely crafted melodies. An early single "Seven Is a Jolly Good Time" b/w "We Are All Princes" received modest airplay on the BBC's venerable John Peel Show. The group then proceeded to record two albums, Egg and The Polite Force, both dominated by Stewart's organ, then broke up after Stewart joined the Canterbury all-star group Hatfield and the North. The Civil Surface is a reunion album that came out in late '74. Stewart currently works with singer Barbara Gaskin on periodic new age projects. Campbell had a brief spell with the first version of National Health, and Brooks drummed for a fortnight with the Groundhogs, but their current activities are unknown. Peter Kurtz HIGH TIDE - A group that may have been too clever by half to succeed in England, High Tide never received more than a minimal amount of acceptance in their own country, but found a cult audience on the European continent. Formed in 1969, they played progressive rock with some folk and pop influences. Tony Hill was the singer and guitarist, Simon House played violin and keyboards, Peter Pavli handled the bass, and Roger Hadden played the drums. They were signed to Liberty Records' U.K. division in 1969 and released two albums over the next year Sea Shanties and a self-titled second album both of which featured dazzling guitar work by Hill and occasional striking interplay between his instrument and House's violin. The group never really found an audience however, splitting up in 1970. Simon House later became a member of Hawkwind, played with David Bowie, and joined members of the Third Ear Band to perform on the soundtrack of Roman Polanski's movie Macbeth. Pavli later joi! ned in recording with House and several other Hawkwind expatriates. Hill and House have also recorded together in more recent years. The group also backed Denver Gerrard on his 1970 solo album. Bruce Eder bios by allmusic. Thanx -- http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:19:13 +0800 From: Errol Tout Subject: Use of Crimso Music on WEB cartoons This persons asked >Do you think there would be any trouble in using crim's music (or any >other artist's music, for that matter)? I don't wish to rain on your parade but the answer is a rather large yes - there is a problem. Its copyrighted and you do not have the right to use the music without permission of the artists [or the owner of the copyright ie the publisher]. Whether or not you make any money has no bearing on the matter. Errol H. Tout ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:40:01 +0200 From: "Naji Chmayssani" Subject: Songs you hate! >Do you play all of their CD's from start to finish, or is there always >certain songs you skip over? Prozack blues-Into the frying pan. Not because they're bad but because they annoy me. On Prozack, Belew's vocals are crap. Added to this is the drum sound of Mastelotto which doesn't help either. On Frying Pan, I hate the offset drum playing. It really annoys me. That's about it. Oh and I don't really care about Thrakattak or the Projeckcts. Naji ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:39:28 +0100 From: Andrew Diane and Adam Robertson Subject: McDonald & Giles; USA; Egg Have I missed something, or is there a reason everyone is ignoring the excellent CD remaster of "McDonald & Giles (Virgin CDV2963). The booklet includes the lyrics for the first time and lengthy notes by Sid Smith, which incorporate interviews with each of Ian McDonald and Michael Giles". McDonald admits to having carried out a little editing on top of the usual cleaning up process, which he had always wanted to do but had run out of studio time in 1970. I have not had the time to carry out a detailed comparison with the vinyl version, but the running times of some tracks are now slightly shorter. To my unsophisticated ears the sound quality is beautifully clear. And the music? Having listened to it for the first time in years, I keep wanting to play it again and again. The Birdman suite and Michael Giles's "Tomorrow's People" (rehearsed by KC in 1969) are particularly good. It's a much better album than ITWoP, or for that matter Lizard or Islands, but it's obvious that McD & G wanted to head in a different musical direction to RF. USA remaster - again, I've not had time to compare with the vinyl, but I think there are a few extra precious seconds of the guitar solo at the end of "Easy Money". Egg made three albums in all - the other one was called, unsurprisingly "Egg", though it was re-released on vinyl with extra tracks in 1985 renamed "Seven is a Jolly Good Time". While they inhabit not dissimilar musical territory to KC, they have more in common with the Canterbury musical scene of which they were a part. If you're not familiar with this, check out Soft Machine, Hatfield and the North (Keyboard player Dave Stewart's next band after Egg) and Caravan, in that order. Soft Machine are probably closest in approach to KC; some might think that influences from Soft Machine Third and Fourth could be heard in the 1972 to 1974 KC. -- Andrew Robertson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:31:26 +0100 From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Markus Holl=E4nder?=" Subject: Re: Egg Manek Dubash wrote: >Yes, there was and they produced two fabulous albums The Polite Force >and Civil Surface. Dave Stewart (not the guy in the Eurythmics) was the >keyboard player, and they did some fascinating things with >counterpointed rhythms, especially Visit to Newport Hospital. There were actually three albums; the first self-titled one being very influenced by The Nice. They had the same format too: they consisted of Mont Campbell (bass and vocals), Clive Brooks (drums) and DS (who later went to "fame" with Hatfield And The North and National Health). You can also find out more about Egg than you ever wanted to know at the wonderful Calyx website: http://perso.club-internet.fr/calyx/ Markus -- "This is a song from the bottom of a well; I didn't move here, I just fell." - Kevin Ayers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:01:02 +1000 From: "Max Wilcox" Subject: 21st Century Prisoner A question I've had for some time, probably since first hearing 21st Century SM... Has anyone ever suggested any connection between an episode of The Prisoner (starring Patrick McGoohan, of course), airing in 1967, entitled "The Schizoid Man" and a certain song of which I'm certain you'll all know? I'd always assumed that it was the inspiration for the lyrics, but have never seen any corroboration in any of the books / liner notes that I've read. Certainly, thematically, it would fit, and its the sort of show Sinfield would probably have watched, but, could be a complete coincidence. A thought, anyway... Max Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:00:28 -0700 (PDT) From: rone at ennui dot org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Subject: Guitar Craft > From: wviland at thin-film dot com > Subject: Craft Questions > > First, I read an article not long ago regarding what Fripp believes is the > proper way to hold a pick. I can't quote the exact explanation but > basically bending the fingers back paralleling the arm. Then the thumb > straight down to clinch the pick. I have been working with this technique, > (with release and return in mind) but am unhappy with the selection of > picks I find at my local music stores. A slightly longer pick would better > suit this technique. Has anyone located a manufacturer/supplier of > nonstandard picks? is over a year old, but suggests they might have picks. > Second, I am very much a beginner with the guitar. Considering the craft > tuning, I wonder if I should change to this nonstandard tuning now and > learn this from the beginning rather than changing later. The problem I > see is that instruction manuals would become nearly worthless especially > regarding tabs. What is the general opinion here? And in tuning to > C-G-D-A-E-G should I change string arrangement or gauge? The second string > is taking a good bump. You need new strings of different gauges. See . If you're starting GC on your own as a beginner, i think that'll be fine. Some of the guys in the SFBA guitar circle also started GC with no previous guitar experience and, after a couple of years, they sound great. rone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:00:40 -0400 From: "brad cook" Subject: Re: Songs you hate!/crimso music in web cartoons Phil DiMaso asks: >Greetings, Is anyone willing to admit what song(s) you absolutely hate by >Crim? Do you play all of their CD's from start to finish, or is there >always certain songs you skip over? Cheers, Phil DiMaso ProzaKC Blues (that's the newest example that comes to mind)....ugh, that altered voice and those lyrics are so cheesy. I know it's somewhat of a parody but again I say...ugh. Luis asks: >movies... Here's something: I'm making a stupid Flash-generated cartoon >with some friends, and we're planning on releasing it through the internet >(for free, obviously). And I'd really get a kick out of using some of our >well-respected "king"'s music. So my question here is: Do you think there >would be any trouble in using crim's music (or any other artist's music, >for that matter)? Methinks this question would be better directed to Msr. Fripp. digme brad cook ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:22:37 -0700 (PDT) From: rone at ennui dot org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Subject: Show some respect > From: Tom Lord > Subject: Re: File sharing and research... > Some of the political writings at www.gnu.org elaborate on these > points at length. Except music isn't being released under copyleft, so your argument is wholly moot. > Those who share files "illegally" (scare quotes because the laws they > allegedly break run square into basic human rights) are collectively > nailing an important document to a church door. This is sheerly ridiculous. Let me break this down: the license is a polite request by the artist (or by the label on behalf of the artist) that you not reproduce the music contained on the media you've just purchased. If you make a copy for a handful of your friends, i can't imagine that this would be a big deal; but if you make a copy and distribute it to the Internet at large, you are effectively being very impolite. If you are Napster and are trying to make money off of the extreme impoliteness of others, that's just immoral. If artists were to release their music under copyleft or some other form of permissive license, such as the EFF's Open Audio License , you are obviously free to do as you will, WITHIN THE TERMS OF THOSE LICENSES. It is, simply put, a matter of respect. If you want to challenge that, go ahead, but don't try to paint your impropriety as a "basic human right", because that's when i call "bullshit". rone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:29:33 -0400 From: "brad cook" Subject: Vincent Gallo's ConstruKCtion of Light review Hey! Although I've subscribed to ET for about 8 years I may have missed it if someone already posted this. I haven't read every issue and I missed it for a year when I was overseas in China. I also searched the ET archives and didn't see a mention of this. Anyway I came across a review of CoL written by, what appears to be, a very uninformed Vincent Gallo. I'm not saying that he's uninformed because he doesn't like the album, I don't like SOME of the songs on it either. I'm saying that because he accuses KC of being a bunch of crusty old men who are "out of touch" and are completely ignorant of what's going on in modern music. I think we all know that's not true (as evidenced by their decision to tour with Tool). At the very least I don't think that anyone that knows anything would accuse Mastellotto and Gunn of being "disabled veterans" and I know that Belew frequently works with young artists (including Nine Inch Nails etc...). I say Gallo needs to pull his head out of his...well anyway...here's the link for the (somewhat pretentious) review: http://www.drowninginbrown.com/dib_kingcrim.htm He specifically names "Into the Frying Pan" as sounding like a pop song from 5 years ago but to me this song particularly sticks out as being unique for it's sliding, wavering multitracked vocal melody. I haven't heard anything quite like that vocally. I didn't want to waste bandwidth by quoting entire sections here. You all have access! :) digme brad cook ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:37:07 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: USA >Easy Money was edited most likely due to vinyl time constraints. Same >reason for no Fracture or Starless. With regards to the vinyl, I'd rather >have the full Schizoid Man and (what sounds to me like) the full Asbury >Park than the rest of the Easy Money. Granted, the Easy Money Jam is one >of the better ones out there, but 21CMS and AP are just awesome. Well I understand that it was probably because of vinyl time constraints... but there must be a recording of it before it was cut down for the record, right? maybe there isn't. But if there is, I dont understand why the hell we would be so deprived. I want the full Asbury Park, and Schizoid Man, AND the rest of Easy Money. What is so hard about that? It's a CD remaster, if they have access to the tapes they should use it. Perhaps they don't have access anymore, or something happened to them. But I don't know that, and right now I'm just frustrated that USA, while very good, is still an incomplete live experiance. WHY? ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1030 *********************************