Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #103 D i s c i p l i n e The INTERNET newsletter for Robert Fripp & King Crimson enthusiasts Number 103, Thursday, 5 August 1993 Today's Topics: KC videos? Gibraltar/Prog Survey Holdsworth/Bruford/Bates Project Fripp & Live Recordings : Carrying The Torch Silent Fripp, Holy Fripp Re: enneagrams NEWS: Fripp on Radio 4, and dates [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Hi everyone. Discipline will be off the air for the next 3 weeks or so, I'm afraid, as I'm about to take a holiday. But please keep the submissions coming in while I'm away. I hope you all have good summer holidays. Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: Punky Meadows Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 10:38:33 EDT Subject: KC videos? Somebody recently asked about KC videos and I was about to ask myself - and since I didn't see any responses I'll ask again - What videos are out there (legal or illegal)? I'm especially interested in the pre-80s stuff. I know there is the '84 Tokyo show on laserdisc and the '82 France show. Is there other stuff too? (As in, bootleg type things or stuff broadcast on tv?) Erik epb3r at virginia dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: piscine at mailhost dot tcs dot tulane dot edu (Mike Taylor) Subject: Gibraltar/Prog Survey Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 10:56:49 CDT In Discipline #102, Tony Brown writes ... TB> Readers may also be interested in (if they don't already know of TB> it's existence) the Gibraltar list. It's a progressive rock list; TB> news of releases, tours and so on. Contact TB> gibraltar-request at maestro dot mitre dot org, manager is Michael Lamoureux. That's out of date information. Gibraltar is now moderated by Mike Taylor. To subscribe or submit an article, send mail to gib at mailhost dot tcs dot tulane dot edu. Gibraltar is a weekly digest dedicated to anything related to progressive and psychedelic rock, which includes art-rock, symphonic rock, and electronic music. Gibraltar often has reviews of newly released (first time on CD) classic and obscure progressive rock, plus interviews with members of progressive bands. TB> There is a quite phenomenal progressive rock index available under TB> the Gibraltar archives - via ftp.uwp.edu in TB> pub/music/lists/gibraltar. File is 1993prog-survey. If you don't have access to ftp, e-mail piscine at mailhost dot tcs dot tulane dot edu and we'll work out an arrangement to get it to you, either by e-mail or good ol' snail mail. A published version of the survey is in the works and will be available, solely at cost (no profit), later this year. I'm also looking for good summaries of King Crimson's and Bob Fripp's (separate from Crimso) to include in the published version of the survey. If you are interested, contact me. Mike Taylor Gibraltar Moderator 1993 Progressive Survey Compiler piscine at mailhost dot tcs dot tulane dot edu [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 1 Aug 93 13:11:00 PST From: "Chris King" Subject: Holdsworth/Bruford/Bates Project Is it just that I get tired of Fripp's often prima-donna antics,or am I truly thinking from a clear musical perspective when I think--gee, I bet the Bruford-Holdsworth Band is going to be way more interesting than a reformed King Crimson? I think anything that Bruford/Holdsworth/Bates put together will be much more of a group musical effort. King Crimson, on the other hand, will likely be Fripp's statement to the others in the group that it's "Either my way or the highway." So it comes down to what would you rather hear: The combined musical ideas of B,H, and B played by incredible musicians or the musical idea of F played by awfully good musicians. And I guess that I'd rather hear the former more than the latter if someone offers me front row seats to concerts by both bands on the same night and forces me to choose between the two. And I admit that with all their faults I've always loved KC. Let me toss out this idea on why Fripp doesn't like drummers who are more than timekeepers: Whenever a musician doesn't play the mundane, his or her music moves to the front, becomes more noticeable. This is especially true in live performance. Bruford can be quite noticeable even in a supportive role. And that detracts from Fripp's effort to be the Queen Bee. It's unfortunate. It's an ego thing--my guess. Has anyone else ever heard that wonderful track on Jamaaladeen Tacuma's second (I think) album back in the early 80's which Bruford played on? If I could put together this new Bruford band in anyway I wanted, I'd love to have Tacuma on bass. Harmolodic meets European prog rock. Wonderful last few issues, Toby!! Best Wishes, Chris King [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ASAEL at vms dot huji dot ac dot il@cs.man.ac.uk Date: Sun, 1 Aug 93 17:35 +0300 Subject: Fripp & Live Recordings : Carrying The Torch Toby, First things first, greetings for #100!! Reading Discipline is really one of the best things one can do with the clothes on. [[ wow -- Toby ]] In this article i wish to share some co ntemplations on the issue of musician-music listener relations, in the wake of the discussion held here throughout the digests. I hope that the language will not get in my way. As a starting point i state that witnessing a live performence, let alone one of RF/KC, is a more rich experience than just listening to one. More senses participate in the experience, and there is that "relationship between player and listener" which cannot and, according to RF, should not be pinned down. This statement is seemingly obvious, but it holds true only if several requirements are fulfilled - readiness of the player to invoke such a relationship, readiness of the listener to accept it and readiness of the physical media in which it is to be established (i.e. sound quality and acoustics, visibility, air circulation or any other "objective" conditions you may think of). It should be born in mind that these requirements are not always fulfilled, and whence so the statement is weakened, invalidated or even may be reverted. I proceed now with the cases where the statement is valid after all. RF implies in "Bootleging, Royalties and The Moment" that the player-listener relationship, established during a live performence, is fundemenetal in a measure that NULLIFIES the experience of repetitive listening to it ("How many times can one lose one's virginity?"). But the listener is entitled to his(her) judgement on this issue, though desirably not independant of RF's (in the sense that it should either be influeneced by it or at least take it into consideration). Think of a listener who, due to geographic location or age, was never able to witness a RF/KC perform on stage - one can't possibly expect him(her) to accept RF's point of view as it is. He(she) will HAVE to settle for a live recording of some sort. I mean, that's existentialism per se ;*) Which brings me to bootleging. As far as bootlegs are concerned, and given that the player manifestly objects them, the interaction between player and listener turns into a clash [thus,i confess to find the Greatful Dead's if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them approach to be the best solution]. Resolving the dilemma whether or not to purchase RF/KC boots is, eventually, up to each listener. Definitely, the appearance of The Great Deciever suggests an appealing way out of it, but then again these recordings are reported to be heavily overdubbed, so it might put off certain listeners. [by the way, anecdotes such as the overdubbing of live recordings, RF's refusal to re-issue USA and even Earthbound, the razor blade incident Malcolm has recently unfolded here, and others imply that there's more to RF's approach than he is ready to tell in interviews and articles, or is it just "my evil eye"?] Moreover, take for instance the case of another great British guitar virtuoso Vini Reilly (active within The Durutti Column, when he started nobody knew what to say about his music, so they compared him to RF...). In 1983 he set off to Portugal to assist a friend who founded a local record label, he was planned to record material for an EP but the result was a rip-off:the LP "Amigos Em Portugal" was released without permission and, needless to say, no royalties whatsoever were given to Reilly. The fact is that this LP is a best-selling import LP (in the UK) over the last decade. I think it sold more copies than The Durutti Column's "Without Mercy" which was an official LP based on the material of "Amigos Em Portugal". I wonder, would it have resulted in the same consequences had such an incident occured to RF? Or, if in the next digest someone will offer such a recording for $N what would the reaction be?? How will it depend on the value of N??? What i wish to say here is that between the strictly egoistic views of the musician, on one extreme, and his listener on the other there are numerous "shades of grey" in which the LATTER should localize him(her)self and shift through time, whilst the FORMER is always autonomously entitled to his own point of view. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca (Anil Prasad) Subject: Silent Fripp, Holy Fripp Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 4:10:43 EDT I recently got ahold of a red vinyl flexi disc of "Silent Night a la Frippertronics" performed by none other than our bespectacled bob the fripper himself. Does anyone know the origin of this flexi? There's nothing to indicate where it came from on it. Was it a freebie in a magazine? Did you get one if you devoted your life to Guitar Craft? ______________Anil_Prasad___wcsanil at ccs dot carleton dot ca_______________ "Brian Eno, who has since his late youth been a chromedome, has ingeniously transformed this into some sort of monument to his enormous intelligence -- as if the sheer force of his powerful mind has expelled the very roots from his head." -- Phil Urr 02/89 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: 03 Aug 1993 13:34:34 -0500 From: MOONLIT KNIGHT Subject: Re: enneagrams In reference to the question of a couple issues back, the enneagram symbol and ideas were introduced by G.I.Gurdjeff in the 20's but have showed up in other sources since then. It is generally used to describe the way intelligence reconciles order and chaos, purpose and hazard. The symbol is a triangle inscribed in a circle with a reccurrent six pointed figure as well. For further detail, see J.G. Bennett's _Enneagram Studies_ from Weisner Books or the forthcoming book from A.G.E. Blake, which should be authoratative. Comments that don't seem relevant to Discipline can come straight back to me. Jeff --Boundary (ID knBZVJbeWfX9flqJjH0Tmg)-- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 12:55:00 BST From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: Fripp on Radio 4, and dates During a recent short interview on the BBC Radio 4 'Kaleidoscope' arts program, Fripp mentioned he starts rehearsing with Sylvian on 23 September, and they are playing London's Albert Hall on 4 and 5 December. I have faxed the management asking for details of other dates, but haven't heard anything yet. Toby [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The Discipline archives are available on ftp.uwp.edu, in /pub/music/lists/discipline. The views expressed in Discipline are those of the individual authors only.