Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1029 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1029 Friday, 13 September 2002 Today's Topics: Mastelotto and Bozzio TOGETHER LIVE !!! Re: the term "math rock" plus Mixerman = Genius Re: Fripp's 1981 comments/Crimso at the movies Songs you hate! More about Egg Re: two ???"s about RED Re: Larks' Tongues of the Moon KC in 1972; in the wake of Poseidon; Fripp's 1979 interview Crimson in film KC at Central Park 1974 Use of Crimso Music on WEB cartoons the high cost of music Great Deceiver - DGM 21st schizoid live cover by the French group called Noir file sharing, "treating," and Lizard ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:45:26 -0500 From: "Dick Ross" Subject: Mastelotto and Bozzio TOGETHER LIVE !!! Yo, On Saturday, January 18, 2003 Terry Bozzio and Pat Masteloto will be performing together live at The One World Theater in Austin, Texas! Tickets are now available at www.oneworldtheater.com. I've got my ticket and I'm stoked! If you can find yourself somewhere near the Texas hill country at that time you may want to see this performance at one of the nicest venues around. Jump on tickets fast... it's only a 300 seat hall, and man, what a place! Thump Thump I still elephant talk, Dick Ross ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:57:39 -0500 From: "Jim MacGregor" Subject: Re: the term "math rock" plus Mixerman = Genius "Some friends and I once invented(?) the term "math rock" to describe music that is created through the mathematically clever composition of patterns." (Etc.) Just curious as to when you started using this term. To my knowledge, it was one of the first sub-catagories of what has come to be known as "indie" music. First heard applied in the very early 90's to such artists as the sweeping majesty of Slint and the concentrated sideways super-crunch of Bastro, as well as groups such as Breadwinner, Rodan, Gastr del Sol, Bitch Magnet and the titanic Don Caballero. "Math Rock" based on my understanding, having grown up listening to music deemed as such, tended to be used to describe music that stood apart from your REMs and grungy rock songwriting, instead focusing on an almost clinical precision of tonal and metered placement/arrangement. In retrospect, it seems plainly obvious that this is the distance split between prog rock and punk rock, but at the time it was quite revolutionary, especially for one who was going through music school. Finally, new music, new artists who produced music with craft on the scale of classic composition, but who also took those arrangements and played the crap out of them, regardless of whether the amps needed to be on 10 or not. Math Rock has been described as "the precision of metal without the metal." That's pretty close to what I've experienced. Point being, you have to be a pretty seasoned & articulate player to execute music with the necessary deliberation. Math Rock as a term became pretty passe with the coining of "post-rock" as the catch all for music created and performed under the radar of popular music, involving amalgamations of various genres ie: free jazz is not post rock, alt country is not post rock, granola jam rock is not post rock, but take one person from each genre, stick them together without expectation, and the product of their chemistry will probably hit close to the more-or-less unspoken definition of post rock. One last note on math rock - there are currently a few groups actively playing who fall more or less in to this catagory - I would point out Baltimore MD's Oxes and No(?)CA's The F*cking Champs, both of who actually "take the precision of metal without the metal" and actually ease the metal back into it. Fantomas are the extreme epitome of everything previously discussed. And don't get me started on Tool's Lateralus. Of course, all of this is entirely subjective, just based on my experiences. These reasonings and experiences are what attracted me to KC in the first place; albeit for THRAK, which some folk have varying opinions on, but holy crap, if you had come from my background, THRAK would have blown your head off as it did mine. The double trio at the Rosemont Theatre (Chicago)....sweet living christmas. Since then, I've listened to the whole Crimson catalog, got the point, but unfortunately can't listen to much pre-Larks. --- Did I miss a discussion on this amazing link that I found at Pat Mastelotto's KCNN diary page? This link http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/week1/mm.php contains one of the greatest works of literary documentation that I have ever read. I was in tears, in stitches, on the floor dozens and dozens of times. Speak with me G E N I U S. Anyone who at is all interested in why Mr. Fripp's opinions formed the way that they did, any one who has read Mr. Albini's "The Problem With Music" http://www.arancidamoeba.com/mrr/problemwithmusic.html will howl at this cross section of This, Your Modern Music Business Practices. And howl. And howl. I hope you all have a good day. That's a nice shirt you're wearing. Electric Chimp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:45:13 -0400 From: "brad cook" Subject: Re: Fripp's 1981 comments/Crimso at the movies >DT: What's the significance of September 1981? RF: ....*snip nonsense* appropriate, and because I sense in the autumn of 1981 we're going to see a watershed in some particular way. I'm not sure which, there could be many possibilities. It could be for example the abolition of the motorcar as a form of viable transport. Or petrol rationing so severe that the same is effectively the case. It could be the slide of the dollar, it could be any number of different reasons in a complex world. But it would be enough to bring home to a middle-aged waitress that her cultural milieu has irrevocably changed. >DT: It'll be that startling? >RF: Yes, I sense. Gee, it could either be as startling as the abolition of the motorcar or the dollar declining in value (how many times has THAT happened?!). Maybe some stocks will go down too. :o Who knows what wackiness actually ensued on that day? ("...dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!") > SATAN'S RIGHT HAND, I have co-written a feature film titled SLEEPLESStm, which was inspired by the KRIMSON song of the same title, but the Director vetoed use of the song in the film, this despite the fact that >I wrote a key scene with the Protagonist listening to that very piece! Cool, I'm no writer but I have had this ongoing idea for a script/movie in my head for a long time and some scenes I have totally worked out (call this childish fantasy but one day I will actually put this down on paper). The opening scene in my movie is to the tune of Cage and I think it would really be awesome. *sheepish grin* digme brad cook ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:05:26 -0500 From: "DiMaso, Phil (Elk)" Subject: Songs you hate! Greetings, Is anyone willing to admit what song(s) you absolutely hate by Crim? Do you play all of their CD's from start to finish, or is there always certain songs you skip over? I think just because you're a big fan of the band doesn't mean you blindly love everything they put out. Let's hear what YOU think! Cheers, Phil DiMaso ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:09:00 +0100 From: "Manek Dubash" Subject: More about Egg >I've been told there was an early 70's British band called Egg, that in > many >ways resembles the LTIA to "Red" period of KC (which is my personal >favorite). Does anyone have any info on them? If so, which albums > should I >look for? Thanks in advance. > >Christian Hess >San Jose, Costa Rica Yes, there was and they produced two fabulous albums The Polite Force and Civil Surface. Dave Stewart (not the guy in the Eurythmics) was the keyboard player, and they did some fascinating things with counterpointed rhythms, especially Visit to Newport Hospital. Both albums are, as far as I can tell, not longer on general release but remain very listenable. Manek ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:23:05 -0500 From: "JEFFREY CLAYTON" Subject: Re: two ???"s about RED The cymbal is, to quote BB from Modern Drummer, "an old Zilket ride we found in a practice room...that one just died after a while". Probably a cheap brass starter cymbal. To get the tone, I imagine it was close miked and processed a bit. Cheap cymbals have very little projection. On the subject of overdubs, I have read many interviews with Bill, seen him play many times, and even spoke with him on one occasion. I have not very often experienced a person who is so UN-full of BS (especially in show biz). I believe overdubs on grooves and fills would be very distastefull to Mr. B. Trust me, he played most everthing you hear with 2 hands and 2 feet, all at once. Bill is truly a master drummer. When I met him, I asked how he can play the intense, complicated patterns he plays and never stop smiling! He said, "I'm tripping myself up, actually!" He's modest too! My first post, How'd I do ? Jeff Clayton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:01:57 -0400 From: "Eden, Scott C Mr (Contractor)" Subject: Re: Larks' Tongues of the Moon > Any idea which album came out first? I know that before recording these > albums, each band toured with the material first. About Dark Side, Floyd played pretty much the entire Dark Side set beginning in January 1972 (at that point it was called Eclipse and not Dark Side Of The Moon). The only songs to undergo any real change were On The Run and Great Gig. Other than that, the first performances of Dark Side were pretty much what showed up on the LP over a year later. So, the Dark Side material actually preceded Larks' by at least 9 months (using October 1972 as the date for Larks'). Official release dates are another thing entirely, though. Take care. Scott Eden ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:00:44 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: KC in 1972; in the wake of Poseidon; Fripp's 1979 interview >We saw KC live in 1972 both with and without Jamie Muir. You are very lucky to have seen the five- piece version of this band. I wish they had come to the US with Jamie. >If I have to nominate a least liked album >it has to be IWP. I love Pictures of a City, Cadence and Cascade, the title track, all the pieces of Peace, and Cat Food. The Devil's Triangle is a bit of a studio creation - to my ears, it doesn't sound like a lot of actual playing is going on there. It would have been great if they could have recorded Mars the way they did it in the live shows with the first band. All in all, though, it's a fantastic album that is in many ways an improvement over the first one. >Just reading an interview with Mr Fripp from 1979 yesterday, located at - >http://www.elephant-talk.com/intervws/fripp-dt.htm Max, thanks for posting the contents of this. This is fascinating! >But why September 11? Well, it's three years after the original mooted >release date for Exposure which of course was delayed for some eight >months because of RCA. September 11 because it's a very symbolic date in >astrology. I'm not personally awfully fluent in astrology, but it's the >day when the planets line up in the solar system and would therefore seem >to be symbolic and appropriate, and because I sense in the autumn of 1981 >we're going to see a watershed in some particular way. As usual, Mr. Fripp was about 20 years ahead of his time. I would love to hear his answers to some follow-up questions on this subject! >Put on "The Devil's Triangle" and close Your eyes, if You don't see one of >the best horror movies then there must be a flaw in You imagination. I'll certainly go along with that, Eddy. - S. np: David Ossman and Philip Austin, The Big Broadcast of 1976 scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:15:36 +0000 From: "satan's right hand" Subject: Crimson in film >From: "MALCOLM XERXES" SATAN'S RIGHT HAND, I >have co-written a feature film titled SLEEPLESStm, which was inspired by >the KRIMSON song of the same title, but the Director vetoed use of the >song in the film, this despite the fact that I wrote a key scene with the >Protagonist listening to that very piece! Malcolm, is this that horror movie that's listed at Amazon? It's funny because if it is, then someone said this was the worst soundtrack ever. I wonder what they would have thought if "sleepless" were in there(assuming this is the same movie)... Eddy de Causmaecker--I haven't actually gotten around to buying a couple of KC albums including "ITWOP" so I can't say I have heard "The Devil's Triangle"...unless of course it was one of the songs my friend downloaded(how's that for a neutral term?) from Napster. Which, if in fact it is, will make me want to go out and buy it on the next paycheck, whether I have money for food or not! :) Beers, Jeramaya "We don't have any photos of his weapons of mass destruction just yet but we have got drawings. In felt pen." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:45:56 EDT From: TingdzinKochu at cs dot com Subject: KC at Central Park 1974 In ET #1025, C Gribbin scribes: >In fact, GE >had a rough time getting their set out, being perpetually booed and pelted >with beer cans and leaving the stage after Radar Love with a look of >disgust. Hey CG, that's right. WuzzUP, I was there, too. Yep, beer cans in flight, afternoon delight - - remember, the concert was sponsored by Bud'? How's abouts when the GE singer announced that the delays were all because the GE guitarist had diarrhea? Like, that was more information than we needed just about then. Thrak On! John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:48:55 -0300 From: "The Necron Stratomailer" Subject: Use of Crimso Music on WEB cartoons Hello, my name's Luis, and I've been receiving this newsletter for a couple of weeks now... I like it very much! Err...... humm.... Yeah! Anyhooz.... Given the discussion of why Crimson music doesn't get used on movies... Here's something: I'm making a stupid Flash-generated cartoon with some friends, and we're planning on releasing it through the internet (for free, obviously). And I'd really get a kick out of using some of our well-respected "king"'s music. Some examples: Red's outro for the title's song, Thrak as the BGM for one episode, Larks PT2's finale (with an nuclear explosion sample stuck with it) for the ending of each episode, etc. Now, I wouldn't like to get in trouble for doing this. There will be no profits out of the project (other than a laugh or two), since we'll be doing for our (and, why not, the audience's) own amusement. So my question here is: Do you think there would be any trouble in using crim's music (or any other artist's music, for that matter)? Another subject... >Put on "The Devil's Triangle" and close Your eyes, if You don't see one of >the best horror movies then there must be a flaw in You imagination. Actually, I have tested this and not only does it work with "Close Your Eyes", but it also works with "90125", "Big Generator" and "Talk"! =) Later! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:20:20 -0400 From: "philip m. quirk" Subject: the high cost of music I would like to add my two cents and a couple of observations with respect to the Napster/downloading thread. I am an old bag(46), and I recall in my teens and early twenties buying albums like crazy and going to concerts quite a bit. Frequently, I bought albums or went to concerts of musicians that I had only heard a little from, and sometimes even none at all.If the album was lousy, or the group was awful live,it didn't cost a lot of money to find that out. The situation is quite different now, and it cannot be attributed solely to inflation- the reasons are a subject for another post. With a new cd costing close to $20.00, and a concert ticket in the $50.00 range, it is simply too expensive to be an adventurous young person when it comes to trying out new music/musicians. Of course, as one poster suggested, one could research, but that does not protect one from a whole bunch of clinkers- it merely reduces the odds somewhat. It also does not allow one to genre-leap very well, to try out radically different music(If not for cheap concert tickets I would never have heard Mahavishnu live and explored the world of jazz) and to plunge into the unknown(musically speaking). My sympathies go out to young people trying to experiment with different types of music- radio offers no airplay to anything that isn't multiplatinum or recorded 25+ years ago, so that avenue of discovery is closed. I'm not trying to justify downloading, but given the present-day economics of the music business for consumers, it is easy to understand why there are sites such as Napster and the like. "It gets late early out there." - Yogi Berra ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:46:53 +0100 From: "Mike Dennis" Subject: Great Deceiver - DGM Hi Steve Crocker says he his concerned about buying GD from DGM in the USA from the UK. I purchased the Zoom Club issue from them, carriage was no higher than buying mail order in the UK and best of all they arrived in two days from LA. Whereas I have waited a week for Earthbound from a company in the UK! Mike Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:47:24 +0200 From: Frederic Paresy Subject: 21st schizoid live cover by the French group called Noir Hi everybody, As some french fans may know, the french group "Noir Desir" (who is said to be the best french group ever...) has made a cover of the 21st Century schizoid man for their last live tour (for the last encore). You can hear this strange version on this link: http://nwardesir.free.fr/zenith/15_reprise.ram For those who don't know about Noir Desir, this track is very close to what they ususally make: you should only recognize some lyrics and the thundering bass of the tune. It should be a mix of one of their (non-edited) track and the mythic KC track. It's worth a listening. Moreover, for those who are interested in this group, their last album "Des visages, des figures" have some strong influences coming from King Crimson 1980-2000 period. The others albums are more oriented punk-rock. Have a good listening! -- Frederic PARESY "Et si Dieu n'existe pas, nous existerons pour lui Et si vieux je ne tiens pas, vous existerez pour moi Je suis fier d'etre poursuivi par cette foutrediante de vie De la dresser contre le sort, de la palper sans faux efforts, De la serrer contre ma mort..." (Pierre-Yves Theurillat, Galaad / slightly modified) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:35:40 -0400 From: jimab at rogers dot com Subject: file sharing, "treating," and Lizard Greetings to all, Thought I'd pull my head out of the sand and comment on a few recent threads: >Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:55:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: Tom Lord >Subject: Re: File sharing and research... >To fault people for file sharing is like faulting them for breathing >or looking at picturesque mountains. It is simply absurd. No, that analogy is absurd. Many people are able to exist quite comfortably without "file sharing." Try not breathing for a while. The second analogy is tenuous at best. One does not _have_ to look at the mountains, but it is usually impossible not to see them. I am not condemning the practice of file sharing, since I'm sure there are instances where it can be useful. This comes from knowing that there _is_ a world outside of Eastern North America, where I happen to reside, and that not everyone has access to the kind of facilities I have at my disposal. I am at a further advantage in that I have a programme on a local community radio station where music is available often before it hits the commercial stations (which, in the case of what I play, is virtually never). On a different topic: With regard to the idea of "treating" other performers, this is something that really should be worked out between the performer and the "treater." If the performer doesn't like it, and doesn't want it done, then they should let that be known or put up with the results. If they know that someone else will likely be altering what they do, then a separate track - if available - should be used for a "dry" version which could be altered later to, one would hope, the satisfaction of all. I guess that's all 20/20 hindsight, though, for those historical recordings. To get this post on the rails (and hopefully prevent it from being deep-sixed by the heinous Toby ;->), let me take this opportunity to put in my vote of support for Lizard. I have always considered it to be in the KC "premiere league" of albums, not only for the wonderful music contained therein, but also for its introducing me to many musicians who I later came to pursue in their other ventures - except, of course, for Tippett who was on ITWoP. What surprised me when reading Sid Smith's book was the amount of cobbling that went into constructing the title track. It always seemed quite seamless to me. So, there's my semi-annual contribution to this wonderful on-line orgy. All the best to everyone. Back to the shadows again... James Bailey host: Electric Storm / A Missing Sense CKLN-FM 88.1 Toronto http://www.ckln.fm ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1029 *********************************