Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1028 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1028 Thursday, 12 September 2002 Today's Topics: Genius: New Rock Opera project with John Wetton as King Mc Chaos! Re: File sharing and research... the term "math rock" Re: FX on Boz/Haskell`s vocals Great Deceiver Happy to Be Happy, diaries and more.. USA REMASTER King Crimson - Cow Palace 1974 Fripp's Diaries Fripp and Satch-Sleepwalking thru Strange Beautiful Music Schizoid Man at Asbury Park Egg and KC? Re: USA/ is Earthbound worth it? The KC/RF Progression Craft Questions Jonas Hellborg Billy B. on latest Gordian Knot release ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:42:16 -0700 From: "daniele liverani" Subject: Genius: New Rock Opera project with John Wetton as King Mc Chaos! Hi! I think this would be appreciated by King Crimson (and John Wetton) fans! best! www.geniusrockopera.com Frontiers Records are finally able to unveil all details concerning the release of the hugely awaited first episode of the GENIUS Rock Opera, written and performed by the italian musician Daniele Liverani, known for his work with the prog-metal italian heroes, EMPTY TREMOR. The cast of characters, in order of apparition includes: Mark Boals (ex Malmsteen, Ring Of Fire) as "Genius" Lana Lane as "Doorkeeper" Daniel Gildenlow (Pain Of Salvation) as "TwinSpirit n. 32" Chris Boltendahl (Grave Digger) as "Stationmaster" Joe Vana (Mecca) as "King McChaos Consultant" Steve Walsh (Kansas) as "Wild Tribe King" John Wetton (Asia) as "McChaos King" Oliver Hartmann (At Vance) as "Wild Tribe Consultant" Midnight (ex Crimson Glory) as "Maindream" With: Philip Bynoe (Steve Vai, Ring Of Fire) as "The Storyteller" Choir: Olaf Senkbeil (Dreamtide) Hachy Hackmann Chris Bolthendal (Grave Digger) Additional background vocals on "The Right Place": Rita Celli Additional background vocals on "All Of Your Acts": Thom Griffin (Ambition, Trillion) On drums, the incredible human engine: Dario Ciccioni. The whole concept runs around the many characters that Genius meets during his journey in the parallel dimension where he discovers the secrets of the creation of the human dreams. The final tracklisting will include the following songs: Without Me Today; The Right Place; Paradox; Twin Spirits Land: All Your Acts; Dreams; My Pride; There's a Human; Father; Terminate; I'm Afraid. The music style can be described as an exciting mixture of melodic rock and progressive metal. The cover artwork has been designed by Markus Meyer (Nightwish, Grave Digger, Edenbridge). The release date is scheduled for October 23rd 2002 for Europe on Frontiers Records. The album has been licensed for other territories to: King Records (Japan); One Music Entertainment (South Korea); Rock Empire (Taiwan / China); Hellion (Brazil); The Art Records (Mexico) For more infos and details on the concept and song samples, check out the website: www.geniusrockopera.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:55:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Lord Subject: Re: File sharing and research... Mark writes: > I am interested in the euphemism "file sharing" being used > in place of the word theft. I think it is an example of > moral decay and I think it is harmful to those few who > create stuff. There is an argument in the opposite direction, and I think it is a very sound argument. It is a property of Nature that digital information may be cheaply and freely copied. It is only through the intervention of social institutions that it can not be freely copied, and often, those interventions operate via an ultimate and unlimited threat of violence. The pressing issue here is the need for new ways of doing business -- to find some that both permit file sharing _and_ reward creators. To fault people for file sharing is like faulting them for breathing or looking at picturesque mountains. It is simply absurd. Some of the political writings at www.gnu.org elaborate on these points at length. You could say: "People should respect the old institutions while new ones are being built", but any much stronger condemnation than that borders (at least) on hysteria or (literally) facism. It's odd. When I read RF's writings on copyright, I have the strong sense that he is opposed to file sharing and similar phenomenon. Yet I also have the sense that we would agree about the historic abuses of the business world. The solutions lie in the direction of _freedom_ for people, not restrictions. Those who share files "illegally" (scare quotes because the laws they allegedly break run square into basic human rights) are collectively nailing an important document to a church door. -t ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:02:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Lord Subject: the term "math rock" Some friends and I once invented(?) the term "math rock" to describe music that is created through the mathematically clever composition of patterns. Polyrythms, even if their creators didn't think of them that way, are a classic example (relative primality, explained as music). The math rock compositional technique that I've explored (with a tiny bit of success) is basically to "roll the dice" to pick patterns for basic components (rhythm, chord progression, etc) -- play around with the utter noise that results -- then apply one's personal "musicality" filters to extract from that noise something worth developing. It's challenging, and fun, and seems to me like one of the directions that progressive rock points. I've been wondering if this term is in general circulation. Have others heard it? -t ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:05:33 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: Re: FX on Boz/Haskell`s vocals > >If anyone dislike the vocals perhaps that might be down to the VCS3 >worked by Peter Sinfield. > >I adore those treated vocals. Incredible! Essential to the work. I was just advancing a possible reason why people may not like these vocals. I quite like the result ( I love "Lizard", in case that point had been obscured or, er, distorted.... in some way...) and I think Haskell has a voice that suits lack of extreme FX as well as their use. Really what I want in a criticism (from the varying opinions of "Lizard"),negative and positive, is substantial reason why the listener may or may not like it. These reasons were not as prevalent as I would have liked. If I want substance in my listening I want the same in opinions advanced on said listening. > >...Really I cannot think of anyone that would allow someone else to apply >an effect to their instrument. >Nonesense. Many groups have done this, having one more member who provides >the effects & treatments, & perhaps the mix, live. It`s an important & >effective tool. Check out Lights in a Fat City-"Somewhere"........ >didj,perc/drums, ..........& , treatments, atmospheres, & FX I may be wrong but I really do not think many musos would want someone deciding on their effect, again a pre-arrangement is a different matter. There may be exceptions but it's not the norm. And having two vocalists / bassists (in KC consecutively) having their singing treated by another might have been one of the contributing factors in the instability of the KC line ups of 70/71. It was all very well for Mr Fripp to think this was a good idea to have these FX but it was Boz who had to stand up and have his singing manipulated by someone else in front of thousands of people. > >Panning and mixing sound from the desk is one thing but having > > >another manage the effectmust be surely one of the most annoying > > >things to happento a musician. >Not if the musician(s) *want* it done. Not if the member of the band, > >remember....as Pete Sinfield was considered a full member of the >band), >was offered the freedom to do so by the collective. Collective? Not Sinfield and Fripp (in possibly that order). i can only speculate on what mel Collins might have said had his (sweet and lyrical)sax been interefered with by a 3rd party effect. >Sinfield provided "words , sounds, & visions". A perfectly valid >decision, >& to be applauded. I love the innovative/inspired >production values >employed in those days. All methods can/could be >utilized. The >unexpected! Mmm. Again did Boz really want this to be done? Or Gordon? It might have been KC culture from Sinfield and Fripp up to a point and fine on 21CSM (even Wetton had his vocal distorted). Fripp and Sinfield fell out, apparently over the lyrical nature. But perhaps the influence of Sinfield's sounds and visions contributed negatively to KC in personnel terms. But yes, I do agree on innovation and unexpected approaches to be used. It may have come down to a lot of factors in destabilising KC which began once Sinfield was no longer present. I regret I sound somewhat critical of Pete Sinfield. I am somewhat suspicious over his influence on (then emerging talents within KC, the Islands line up in particular) in his sound FX live. However, for the most part I have enjoyed much of his lyrics. His are very original and well considered. Even when I do not possess the wherewithall to understand some of these lyrics, then that is my problem. I thought "Lizard" a particular high point for Mr Sinfield's creative lyrical abilities. there we are... Lawrence np. Magma - Live * >"Invention is the Mothers" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:44:26 +0100 From: Steve Crocker Subject: Great Deceiver Hi Firstly may I congratulate you on your excellent web site. I was hoping you may be able to direct me to a source for the box set "The Great Deceiver" here in the UK. I have been trying to obtain it for the past year through sites such as Amazon etc with no success. In fact they have pulled it from there catalogue now following my failed attempt to purchase it through them. I have located it through Discipline Global Mail Order but this appears to be US situated and therefore incurs a reasonably hefty carriage fee plus I am a little concerned about releasing my visa details to a company outside of the UK. I hope you can offer some assistance and look forward to hearing back soon. Many thanks steve crocker 01582 487580 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:04:55 EDT From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Happy to Be Happy, diaries and more.. >Well, isn't this supposed to be an EP anyway? Why are there all those >songs listed if it is indeed? The thing apparently has 11 tracks, but I'd bet they're not all full songs. The Vicar mentioned a few unaccompanied haikus from Adrian - perhaps they're slotted in among the tunes? I'm eagerly awaiting the day that the EP and the new Thrak edition arrive in my mailbox. >I have acquired the remaster of Islands, and in the inlay an article >mentions Robert Fripp suggesting an album of Crim songs played wrong, eg. a >reggae version of 'Cadence and Cascade' and a swing-band doing 'Schizoid >Man'. Was this ever done? If so, how can I get my hands on it? I laughed at that when I saw the Islands insert. Maybe Robert was half-serious in the interview, but that's never been done.. although the band did occasionally do some odd things with the tunes onstage, e.g. the bluesy "Court of the Crimson King" on Club disc #18. As a last note, for those who might not check Krimson-news.com as obsessively as I do, Pat M has a link to a pretty interesting journal from a recording engineer out west, chronicling the recording of some album we're never likely to hear. Pretty long, but it's an interesting read for anyone interested in the recording process. http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/week1/mm.php Now if he'd only fill us in on what he's doing himself.... argh! -g ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:25:52 -0400 From: "Benfield, Jon" Subject: USA REMASTER The burning question for me is "IS EDDIE JOBSON ON THE NEW USE REMASTER RELEASE?????" or is it Cross? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:30:45 -0400 From: "Steve Gibson" Subject: King Crimson - Cow Palace 1974 While I'm in the retrospective mood... Six years ago this month I submitted a recollection about KC at the Cow Palace in 1974 (ET #310)... Never did get any response to that as I recall... So, let me try it again... Any of you old geezers out there (like me) who might remember this? I was in the Navy at the time, and definitely a big KC fan from my pre-Navy days. I remember KC coming out, the crowd being very unruly, the sound being a mish-mash, and the band leaving the stage after just a couple of songs. A few minutes later, the announcer came out and announced, in a very low voice: "King Crimson will not be returning. King Crimson has the stomach flu." With a little more searching, it looks like KC may have been the backup band for Ten Years After, which would explain the rowdiness... BTW -- I have NO detailed recollection of TYA from that concert... I do remember being at a TYA concert that was very good -- just can't say it was the one at the Cow Palace... Man, that was a long time ago! Peace... Steve NP: FSOL -- The Isness ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:43:10 +1000 From: "Max Wilcox" Subject: Fripp's Diaries Hello all, I was just wondering, after browsing through some of Mr Fripp's diary entries at DGM, is there any way to access the whole lot chronologically? I've been reloading the page over and over to get the "random blasts from the past" entries at the bottom, but its a bit of an unwieldy process. Or failing that, has anyone archived the whole thing? I'd guess Robert wouldn't want the whole thing up on the net other than at the DGM site, but I can't imagine he'd have a problem with people collecting it all together and passing it around for greater reading ease. I found the text on the Deja VROOM DVD to be a very enjoyable read, so I'm looking forward to having a gander at this stuff. Any assistance would be appreciated. Max Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:53:25 EDT From: NajiBaji at aol dot com Subject: Fripp and Satch-Sleepwalking thru Strange Beautiful Music If you have not already, please do check out the new Joe Satriani release "Strange Beautiful Music." On it there is an interesting cover of the rock and roll standard "Sleepwalk" with Robert providing Frippertronics. The entire album is a wonderful experience that I am sure most ETers would be happy with. Would like to hear more collaborative efforts with Joe Satriani in the future. dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:58:58 EDT From: NajiBaji at aol dot com Subject: Schizoid Man at Asbury Park I ran across an EP consisting entirely versions of 21Century Schizoid Man versions throughout various KC incarnations. I believe there was Five tracks. One was from Asbury Park. With the currents discussions about the USA remaster, I was wondering if anyone had any comments, reviews, or insights. dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:21:44 +0200 From: "Eddy de Causmaecker" Subject: Egg and KC? If anyone is looking for Crim-resembling music from the LTiA/SaBB/Red period I suggest listening to the Swedish band "ANEKDOTEN" You won't regret it! http://www.anekdoten.se/ Greeting from Eddy Flycatcher flycatcher at zeelandnet dot nl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:59:34 -0500 From: "James Hines" Subject: Re: USA/ is Earthbound worth it? Jordan wrote: >And I do really like the rest of the album, I just get tired of incomplete >live experiences... I almost feel like there is no point. Why cut of Easy >Money? Why would they leave out Fracture and Starless, two incredible >amazing songs, in the original album? Easy Money was edited most likely due to vinyl time constraints. Same reason for no Fracture or Starless. With regards to the vinyl, I'd rather have the full Schizoid Man and (what sounds to me like) the full Asbury Park than the rest of the Easy Money. Granted, the Easy Money Jam is one of the better ones out there, but 21CMS and AP are just awesome. I absolutely love the new remaster of USA. The sound is wonderful and Wetton's bass tone & playing on the whole thing is inhumanly excellent. I absolutely LOVE the clarity on Fripp's guitar in the middle of Fracture and the whole of Starless is IMO the best live version so far. I can't believe we had to wait 28 years for this track to come out! It was worth it though. And yeah, I do think that the USA Starless is 'better' than the Central Park Starless. I'm sure the lights were cool during it, but for sound purposes, I go with USA. I, too, can not stop listening to this. >However, Can anyone tell me what the pro's and con's are to getting the >EARTHBOUND remaster? > >is it worth it? will I buy it and hate it? is the sound any better? (ive >never heard it at all, so i kind of just want to buy it to hear it) someone >help me out. If you haven't heard Earthbound before and you're a pretty serious Crimhead then, yes, you should get it. Hell, you should get it anyway. I totally think it's worth it, since now I don't have to get out my vinyl just to hear it. The sound quality is much improved from the original vinyl release. I mean, it's still 5 songs recorded onto a cassette in 1972, but they cleaned it up as much as humanly possible. Pros: great version of 21CSM with excellent Fripp and Collins solos, 2 pretty cool and VERY different improvs (different than the rest of KC's improvs), a great improv in Groon. Also, you get an album that's finally available on CD after its initial release 30 years ago. Cons: yeah, sound quality isn't the best, but if you have any of the 69-72 KCCC stuff (or Epitaph) and aren't offended by the sound on that, then you should be OK with Earthbound. Another 'con' is that there isn't any extra material there; it's edited (poorly) exactly like the vinyl. Knowing that Ladies of the Road is finally going to come out (was originally promised in the Thrak tour pragram!), I don't have a problem with Earthbound being just a cleaned up version of the original release. Con: it's short, and there's only 5 songs. Major con: severely edited Sailor's Tale. Con: Ian's drum solo. Most of the solo is pretty good, but once the VCS3 kicks in I really don't like it and it's annoying. I think the pros win out, but I've had the thing for 6 or 7 years now so I'm used to it. And to answer my question from a few days ago re: overdubs on USA...YES the Jobson overdubs and vocal distortion on 21CSM are intact on the remaster. And I STILL say that the USA Schizoid Man is the best version out there. USA is excellent, and I'm happy. Yay new Crim EP in a few weeks!! James www.geocities.com/cheevyjames ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:12:31 -0400 From: Dan Gallagher Subject: The KC/RF Progression Zooming out for a moment and looking at the whole KC/Fripp progression, I see a move from Fantasy (ITKOTCK) to Dreaming (Islands), through Mysticism (LTIA) to Power (Red) to Discipline (Discipline) to Calculation (THRAK). Perhaps each album is in itself a depot of sorts, with an even more specific nomenclature, but the Path is there if you look closely enough. But after Calculation, what? --Dan Gallagher The Vanilla World View http://sassure1.tripod.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:23:18 -0500 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Craft Questions First, I read an article not long ago regarding what Fripp believes is the proper way to hold a pick. I can't quote the exact explanation but basically bending the fingers back paralleling the arm. Then the thumb straight down to clinch the pick. I have been working with this technique, (with release and return in mind) but am unhappy with the selection of picks I find at my local music stores. A slightly longer pick would better suit this technique. Has anyone located a manufacturer/supplier of nonstandard picks? Second, I am very much a beginner with the guitar. Considering the craft tuning, I wonder if I should change to this nonstandard tuning now and learn this from the beginning rather than changing later. The problem I see is that instruction manuals would become nearly worthless especially regarding tabs. What is the general opinion here? And in tuning to C-G-D-A-E-G should I change string arrangement or gauge? The second string is taking a good bump. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:34:36 -0400 From: eric dot johnson at dpsnc dot net Subject: Jonas Hellborg I'd imagine Jonas Hellborg's music would be of interest to Crim lovers. In terms of sheer dexterity on the bass, I haven't heard anyone match his skills: find, if you can, "It's the Pits" on Elegant Punkfor an example of his awesome technique.Hellborg, has not, however, substituted speed for substance. Many of his recordings reflect a fine musical intelligence that does not shy from emotional openness. Some features of his career so far: he was in McLaughlin's 80's Mahavishnu; his trio with Shawn Lane makes some of the highest quality jam band/fusion you can find; he has done some work with Bill Laswell that ranged from experiemental funk (with Deadline, woefully hard to find) to compositions for string quartet/bass/drums (with Tony Williams); and recently recorded with classical Syrian musicians for a satisfying blending of musical traditions.Check him at out at http://www.bardorecords.com/. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:11:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: Billy B. on latest Gordian Knot release Greetings, One might get the impression from the recently posted interview with Bill Bruford that he isn't interested in playing anything other than jazz these days. But before reading that I saw an interview with him regarding his appearance on the new Gordian Knot CD "Emergent", slated for January release (see www.lasercd.com). He made a comment about this CD containing music that might be Crimson if Crim had "gotten around to it". Appears that this stuff was recorded back in 2001 and for whatever reasons the release has been delayed. BB isn't on every track, including the promo mp3 at lasercd, but he is on the "preview trailer" at Sean Malone's site, www.seanmalone.net. Listening to the trailer, I'm not sure about the Crimson reference, but since the trailer consists of snippets only I'll suspend judgement until I've heard more. Steve Hackett also plays on this disc; other than Sean Malone, the only returning member of the first Gordian Knot release is Sean Reinert, playing V-drums if you can believe it! Hmm, maybe that's the source of Billy B's "Crimson" comment. Be seeing you...some of you. -spc ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1028 *********************************