Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1027 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1027 Wednesday, 11 September 2002 Today's Topics: First Encounter/Favourite Album/Jonas Hellborg Re: Why Crim, Yes, etc. Interesting Note Easy Money on USA Re: Requiem Earthbound, USA, Adrain solo, etc. Re: USA/ is Earthbound worth it? 21st CENTURY SCHIZOID FILM Re: King Crimson at the movies Re: Theft USA and Earthbond - Art Work Crimson @ the movies Egg and KC? 21st CSB News! Re: Guitar Geeks & Cheap and Dirty Gear ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:02:01 +0100 From: "Mike Dennis" Subject: First Encounter/Favourite Album/Jonas Hellborg ----- Original Message ----- Hi My first encounter with KC was when I was 16 and a school friend and I went to the local record shop after school. In one of the racks of LPs there was ITCCK, my friend had heard of it but I knew he didn't have enough money; in moment he had switched price labels from a much cheaper LP in a nearby rack. A few days later he played the record to me and when as soon as funds allowed I bought my own copy. We saw KC live in 1972 both with and without Jamie Muir. ITCCK was just like nothing I heard before, just as LTIA would in 1972. This leads on to the discussion on Lizard, not one of my all-time favourites but it has some good stuff on it. When I read Gordon Haskell's views in Sid Smith I was taken aback that behind this pleasant album such wrangling were going on. If I have to nominate a least liked album it has to be IWP. When I was acquiring the LPs as they were released I seemed to miss this one is if I somehow knew it would be a sort of re-working of ITCCK, and sure enough when I did buy a copy years later that is how it came across. Though I have it on CD it is not one I would play very often. My all-time favourite has to be a contest between SBB and Red, which I think is best depends on which day you ask me! My biggest KC disappointment was tracking down Cheerful Insanity (yes, I know its not strictly KC but I imagined it must give an indication of where they were coming from and going to). When I did get an LP copy (years before CD version came out), I was just stunned - I had paid a lot of money for - dare I say it - mediocre stuff. On a different matter, having eclectic musical tastes I often look around the bargain bins of records shops and the other day I came across a CD 'The Word' by Jonas Hellborg - it cost me #1.99/$2.85. Turns out he is a Swedish bass guitarist (well done to anyone who knew that already) and the album is so reminiscent of Islands. If you can find it - give it a listen. Mike Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:30:10 -0400 From: "Jack Bross" Subject: Re: Why Crim, Yes, etc. My two cents on the question of following Prog Rock bands over time: I had to chuckle a little reading W. Stuart Kirkham's comments because we are roughly the same age, and have followed roughly the same bands. I also first got into these groups in High School, which for me was the early to mid 80's. So, 90125 was my first Yes, and 3oaPP was my first Crim, and I got to know Peter Gabriel through his videos for Shock the Monkey etc. I back-filled quickly with quite a few albums from all of these guys (on vinyl). Yes: I've been thinking about Yes recently because I actually picked up the big 5-CD retrospective set ("In a Word"). For me, the stretch including "The Yes Album", "Fragile", "Close to the Edge" and "Yessongs" is the unquestioned high point of their career. The songs from these albums hold up extremely well. Their earlier work is pleasant, but sounds a little quaint somehow. I've always thought "Topographic Oceans" was boring and pretentious, and that "Relayer" was a moderately good album rendered insufferable by recording Jon's voice in a way that makes it sound like he's gargling. They still strike me that way. I always hated Tormato, and still do. There are a couple of OK songs on Going for the One, and they are on the retrospective set. I like Drama, and wish there were more in the box set. 90125 is their best album since Going for the One, and I still like it. After that, I've almost completely stopped following Yes. The only Yes album I bought between 90125 and the box set was (if you count it) Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman and Howe. And I didn't like it. Even with T-Lev on bass, mind you! Listening to the 2 CD's worth of highlights from this period on the box set, I don't feel like I've missed much. I might check out Magnification, but everything else sounded pretty pointless to me. So, Yes is a band that I once really liked, and still like much of their music, but have stopped following. I don't really plan on buying future Yes releases, although I'll keep an open mind. Peter Gabriel: I still follow. This summer, I got his soundtrack to "The Rabbit Proof Fence" and really liked it (percussive Australian-inspired stuff). I'll buy UP for sure. I'm not sure I'd still classify what he does as "Prog Rock" in any real sense, but whatever it is, I like it and look forward to more of it. Overall, I think his first three solo albums are particularly good, but also Passion, and I think his live albums tend to be awfully good. Jethro Tull: Still enjoy Aqualung, Thick as a Brick, and some of their other stuff, but stopped listening to new stuff a long time ago. I considered them a joke even before they won that "heavy metal" grammy, and recently passed up free JT concert tickets. Crim, obviously, I still follow, or I wouldn't be reading ET. And although the 73-74 era is my favorite Crim, I think their new stuff is a worthy successor to a great tradition. And I also think that every generation of Crim has something to recommend it (something that the collectors club releases just reinforce). So, why do I continue to listen to some bands and not others? Well, it has something to do with managing to continually reinvent onesself, while staying true to ones own nature. Part of the problem with Yes' Relayer (other than the annoying audio) is that in a song like "Gates of Delirium" they are trying to be aggressive, dissonant and sort of apocalyptic. But, you say, if I'm a Crimhead, don't I like those qualities? Sure, coming from KC, but Jon Anderson can't do aggresive, and the keyboards (Moraz on "Relayer") tend to just sound dorky when they get "angry". Something like Magnification is basically just retreading new-age happy stuff, but at least Yes is /good/ at new-age happy stuff. The reason 90125 worked so well is that with Trevor Rabin, they got an infusion of new blood which was compatible with the old. They actually managed to reinvent the band but find something that they were good at as well. They had already done this with some success on Drama, with the infusion of Buggles talent. And, as far as I can tell, they haven't done it since. Their best songs since then are basically retreads -- things they can do well, but which aren't particularly new. Magnification contains some of the best imitations of "And You and I" you could ever ask for, but if you already own "Going for the One", is that something you need? Both PG and KC have (in my opinion) managed to successfully reinvent themselves repeatedly. In the case of KC, there has been quite a bit of discussion from former bandmates about RF acting as a kind of gatekeeper, deciding that some contributions from bandmates were interesting but weren't actually Crimson. That's actually probably key to why KC is successful -- keeping some sort of core notion of what the band is about makes sure that even as the band evolves, it still works on some fundamental level. It's this, more than guitar playing, that makes Fripp the "indispensible" member of KC. With PG, there's again one guiding person, who controls and channels the input from various collaborators. You sort of wonder if it's really helpful to a group that stays progressive for many years to have some sort of indiviual artistic vision at the helm. We're sort of used to this in jazz (eg, Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor...), which might actually be closer to what a band like KC does than some long-running rock band (Aerosmith or something). I do think that KC, like some of the jazz groups, does a good job of having valuable input and personal influence from new members without straying too far from some kind of path. Food for thought, anyway. -- Jack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:03:55 +1000 From: "Max Wilcox" Subject: Interesting Note Hello all, Just reading an interview with Mr Fripp from 1979 yesterday, located at - http://www.elephant-talk.com/intervws/fripp-dt.htm and thought one section was quite interesting / amusing / coincidental, depending on how much faith one puts in Mr Fripp's mystic beliefs. Here is the pertinent section... ---- DT: What's the significance of September 1981? RF: Well, that's the end of the Drive To 1981. On September 11, the three-year campaign halts, in fact it completes. And then, on that same day, the second three-year campaign begins. This is the decline to 1984. But why September 11? Well, it's three years after the original mooted release date for Exposure which of course was delayed for some eight months because of RCA. September 11 because it's a very symbolic date in astrology. I'm not personally awfully fluent in astrology, but it's the day when the planets line up in the solar system and would therefore seem to be symbolic and appropriate, and because I sense in the autumn of 1981 we're going to see a watershed in some particular way. I'm not sure which, there could be many possibilities. It could be for example the abolition of the motorcar as a form of viable transport. Or petrol rationing so severe that the same is effectively the case. It could be the slide of the dollar, it could be any number of different reasons in a complex world. But it would be enough to bring home to a middle-aged waitress that her cultural milieu has irrevocably changed. DT: It'll be that startling? RF: Yes, I sense. ---- Max Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:23:06 -0500 From: "Phillip Ciskowski" Subject: Easy Money on USA I stand corrected! The version on USA is not the same as the Penn State version on TGD. I was confused by the same general arrangement, but on closer listen they are not even close. Phil Ciskowski ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:54:37 -0400 From: Miguel Farah Subject: Re: Requiem > >Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 10:12:22 +0200 >From: "Evert Zeevalkink" >Subject: Requiem > >Hi there, > >I have a question about the song "Requiem" from "Beat". Somebody told me = >the song was recorded just after Adrian Belew heard his father died, so = >it is Belew we hear freaking out on his guitar, while Fripp is playing = >chords.=20 > >Does someone know whether or not this story is true and Belew is really = >playing the lead lines? I find the lead lines very Fripp-like, I even = >believe I hear some of the same licks in "The Night Watch" on "Starless = >and bible black". I hadn't heard this, but it does make sense to me. I actually find the freaking-out guitar parts to be NON-Frippish. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:38:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jimmy Bob Subject: Earthbound, USA, Adrain solo, etc. Well, this past weekend I have had the fortune of stopping by my local mall and purchasing the remasters of "Earthbound" and "USA". My opinions: EARTHBOUND: Okay album. I like the jazzy-improv section during 21st Century Schizoid Man. Peoria and Eathbound are great, but I find the rendition of "The Sailor's Tale" really lacking. "Groon" is one hell of an @$$-kicker! Ian does a damn good job with his drums during the solo (although I wonder what was going on near the end with all the electronic screeching). The sound quality, IMHO, was sub-standard but still very listenable. Oh well, I guess it's what you get when you record something on an audio cassette. USA: I just can't stop listening to this album (I'm listening to it while I write this)! The first thing I thought of while I listened to this for the first time was: "I wish there were a video of the entire concert. Now THAT would make a killer DVD!" The only track I have a problem with is "21CSM". It doesn't have the "oomph" that was present on the original recording". But still, I can still listen to it. On other fronts: My favorite Adrian guitar solo is on "Indiscipline". It's just so bizarre, so wierd, so out there, you can help but love it and listen to it again and again and again. I have a question concerning the gatefold CDs. Does anybody know if the Ltd. Edition gatefold releases for Lizard and LTIA are still in stock anywhere? I haven't been able to find them and am hoping to complete my task of collecting all the albums from 1969-1984 in the gatefold sleeves. If you know a web site that sells the gatefolds, could you let me know? And finally, I have seen the cover of the "HWWYHTBHW" EP. I think it's okay, but I'm not sure about a P.J. Crook painting on an actual KC studio album. With that said, I have my own take on a cover for this "Nuovo Metal" album. I can picture a long walkway with a marble floor. The walls are made of whitewashed sheetrock walls. And the cieling panels alternating from light fixture to plain panel, and so on. In this walkway, is a man in a black suit with a matching bowler hat who is walking through the hall [towards the camera/viewer] with his head down. His right hand is on the brim of his hat as if to bring it down over his eyes. Just behind him and to his left is a small robot-- that looks like a child--who is clutching his left hand, as if scared at what might be at the end of the hall. As for the liner note artwork. I can picture the artwork in a similar format to TCoL, but instead of computer graphics, surrealistic imagery is used. For example, a closeup of a man whose eyes have been replaced by electrical circuitry. Of course, some of the artwork would go with the song titles. Like a closup of an old-fashoned (circa 1930) elevator floor indicator signaling that the elevator is on the fifth floor ("Level 5"), A shot of one of the wave-length monitors--the name of such a device eludes me for the moment--with the waves spiking near the edges of the screen ("Dangerous Curves"). A plasma ball--I think that's what they're called--being gripped by a pair of hands ("eleKtriK"), and a gray hand with a potato pie levitating a few inches over ("Potato Pie"). Of course, Fripp probably wouldn't like the artwork I'm suggesting. But it would be interesting to see something different for a change. I'm outta here, -jimmybobLW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:01:06 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: USA/ is Earthbound worth it? >I just purchased the CD release of USA. The sound quality is great. Also, >glad that Fracture and Starless were added I just bought it too and while I'm glad I have it. It is not the best live set KC could have put out as a Live album, but I still love it. And I'm a bit confused as to why certain things were done. There are at least 15 more minutes, maybe even between 20-30 minutes of space left on the CD, so why was the version of Easy Money cut? It's a horrible offense. They have a copy of the setlist inside and it shows that they were going into an Improv(or 'blow') from Easy Money. Unless the improv was an incredible failure I don't see why Fripp would, especailly on the re-release, deprive fans of the full experiance. Not only does it cut out the improv that was to follow (or whatever was to follow) but it is now an incomplete version of the song where the second half is missing. I also wish he had put the songs in order the way they are shown in the setlest. I suppose he wanted to just include Fracture and Starless as bonus tracks, but for the re-release I would have thrown them in in their original order. I think as far as the music goes there are better versions out there of each one of these songs, but the real gem is "Asbury Park". This song is incredible. What an amazing display of their improv talent. It is really killer. And I do really like the rest of the album, I just get tired of incomplete live experiances... I almost feel like there is no point. Why cut of Easy Money? Why would they leave out Fracture and Starless, two incredible amazing songs, in the original album? Anyway, I am very glad I bought it.. However, Can anyone tell me what the pro's and con's are to getting the EARTHBOUND remaster? is it worth it? will I buy it and hate it? is the sound any better? (ive never heard it at all, so i kind of just want to buy it to hear it) someone help me out.. thanks Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 03:01:22 -0400 From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: 21st CENTURY SCHIZOID FILM I have been wondering lately why KC's music hasn't been used more in film. Are filmmakers really this banal? SATAN'S RIGHT HAND, I have co-written a feature film titled SLEEPLESStm, which was inspired by the KRIMSON song of the same title, but the Director vetoed use of the song in the film, this despite the fact that I wrote a key scene with the Protagonist listening to that very piece! BUFFALO 66tm was a brilliant film, and the soundtrack was very easy on the ears, to say the least. MALCOLM XERXES Batterie/Slagenwerk http://www.angelfire.com/music/a1000m ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:12:24 +0200 From: "Eddy de Causmaecker" Subject: Re: King Crimson at the movies Put on "The Devil's Triangle" and close Your eyes, if You don't see one of the best horror movies then there must be a flaw in You imagination. Have fun, Eddy Flycatcher flycatcher at zeelandnet dot nl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:15:57 -0400 From: Sylvan Subject: Re: Theft Mark wrote: > But I am > interested in the euphemism "file sharing" being used in place of the word > theft. I think it is an example of moral decay and I think it is harmful > to those few who create stuff. If some feel theft is acceptable, it's > their cross to bear. I have a large record collection of rare albums. I > should just put them all upon the net and provide a music theft library? > Traditional visual arts don't do that. How is music different? Funny how you're choosing to disregard the considerable percentage of people (and I count myself among them) who use file sharing as a kind of new radio, a way of trying out new songs before buying the album. I discovered prog through Napster, which I likely wouldn't have done without it, since prog has been quite thoroughly erased from most of musical history. All it took was one "theft" of Larks' Tongues In Aspic Pt. 1 to totally change my understanding of what rock music could be. I now have a modest collection of about fifty prog albums. (And I've had to purchase Larks' twice over already. Oy. ;) ) So it bothers me when people go on about the 'evils' of file sharing, because if they'd had their way, I'd be living in a world in which I never discovered King Crimson or Gentle Giant or Genesis. -- Sylvan http://www.webcomics.org "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:19:42 -0300 (ART) From: Ronald Miklos Vogel Subject: USA and Earthbond - Art Work Hi Nothing to add about what have been written on the music and sound quality. But what a lovely art work, again. Earthbound inner cover, despite all black, has a very nice art work with 1972 tour dates on the right and musicians faces on the upper left all in a "grey car fashion like colour" . Simple but very interesting. USA has 4 coloured designs/photos/? inside, 2 on each page. New stuff, and also very nice. Front and back covers are very colourful and clear. Booklets, following same pattern as previous releases are also very nice work. It is a pleasure to be able to buy such stuff as regular releases, differently from Yes, whose gatefold Cds exhist only in very expensive japanese releases. Waiting anxiously for Thrak. Ronald Vogel (Brazil) Yahoo! PageBuilder - O super editor para criacao de sites: e gratis, facil e rapido. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:23:38 EDT From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Crimson @ the movies Satan's Right Hand bemoans the lack of Crimson tunes used in movie soundtrax, apart from the notorious 'Emmanuel' incident and suggests that "Thrush" should be used in a sci-fi flick. I suggest that "Thrush" would be an ideal song to put in a remake of "Emmanuel". Gordon Taylor. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:03:02 -0600 From: "MSc. Christian Hess Araya" Subject: Egg and KC? I've been told there was an early 70's British band called Egg, that in many ways resembles the LTIA to "Red" period of KC (which is my personal favorite). Does anyone have any info on them? If so, which albums should I look for? Thanks in advance. Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:51:39 +0200 From: Dario Tortora Subject: 21st CSB News! I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but there is a new site for the 21st Century Schizoid Band: http://www.21stcenturyschizoidband.com Some snips: "Schizoid Band is not another retrospective reunion band. We are including some new material on the tour and will be recording an album of all-new compositions early in 2003." "Merchandise Soon to be available a selection of Schizoid swag. Including T shirts, CDis, Posters, Booklets and DVDis" Dario -- - Mac OS for productivity. UNIX for stability. Palm OS for mobility. Windows for solitaire. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:19:56 +0000 From: "Cameron Devlin" Subject: Re: Guitar Geeks & Cheap and Dirty Gear Hi, >However, after your hints and a little research, I would like to try >one >or more of the following immediately: > >Electro Harmonix - Big Muff Only buy a russian one. They're better engineered, and are sturdy as hell. The american ones have more effort put into the chrome box than the actual circuitry. I have one, and yes, it sustains for months. >I am especially interested in the Boss V-Wah, and at about $120 its >not a >large risk. Haven't played through it yet, but I am also interested in this. Cameron ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1027 *********************************