Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1024 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1024 Sunday, 8 September 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: CGT in Newport RI Sept 14th Some more odds, ends, and such Re: live tool experiance Re: Why Crimson? The Best Impov I've Ever Seen On discovering new music, & the plight of the record industry Re: 'internet theft' Lizard, VCS3 and FX, Industry Lies, Hacks, Packaging, Nashville 2001 Forthcoming KC DVD Re: Gary at Artist's Shop Why Crim / Jonathan Boulter Downloading Music the hook Beating a New Crimson Thunderbird Bruford about Crimson Re: Why Crimson? online music, artist mythos deja vroom DVD A personal view about Larks' Tongues... Re: Why Crimson? Re: Moonchild Remake Adrian's KC Solos Tony Levin Rig KC at central park Peter's Pedal Harmonium Responses to negative comments - last time, I hope! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:43:59 -0400 From: "Martin G. Bradburn" Subject: NEWS: CGT in Newport RI Sept 14th Bert Lams, Paul Richards and Hideyo Moria, (aka) The California Guitar Trio are playing at the Newport Congregational Church on Sept 14th (Sat) at 8pm Tickets ($15.00) can be obtained at the door or reserved by calling (401) 849-2238 or emailing artncc at aiconnect dot com Any of you who have been to any of their previous shows know what incredible musicians these guys are. From Bach to the Ventures, Beatles to Queen, Beethoven to their own jaw dropping and wonderful originals the Trio is the real deal. Not to be missed in a wonderful venue (new sound system!), a delight for young and old. This concert also helps support this beautiful church full of the art of John LaFarge, and the congregations great work in helping all those in need. Martin G. Bradburn 'We know others to the extent we know ourselves' - Guitar Craft Aphorism ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:43:44 EDT From: JohnWylam at aol dot com Subject: Some more odds, ends, and such Hi, Folks -- Colin Beaumier's post about the Earthworks' current lineup was a real cheer. I might've mentioned in here before that I'd seen Earthworks a decade or so ago in Pittsburgh and Bruford was uncommonly kind to me, something I will never but never forget. My wife and I saw the current Earthworks lineup in Detroit, and at Bruford's "meet-and-greet" (I hate to call it that because the term makes it sound far less friendly and open than it was) we had a chance to spend a little time with Bill, who more than ever reminded me of his kindness and openness to questions. Back in the early nineties I'd had a chance to ask him about a KC show they'd played at Curtis Hixon Convention Center in Tampa (note to the moderators: this is the correct spelling/then-current name for the venue; I just wanted to add to clarity here, nothing more) at which the management of Poco -- according to local legend -- protested that they were being short-changed over having to play in the middle of a bill that began with Robin Trower and ended with KC. For some reason, the concert promoter caved in and so, after Trower's less-than-interesting set, KC's equipment was duly set up, and all of us near the stage noticed the roadies' body language, how hurried they all seemed. When KC arrived on stage, they *stalked.* From there they played a one-hour set that consisted of the most brilliant music I have yet to hear in that space of time. RF has often written that KC's one-hour sets should suffice, and as much as I wanted to know what else they might've played had they had the chance, the fire and fury of that set that night will remain with me until I am dead. No joke. And so I'd had a minute after Earthworks played to ask Bruford what I understand now as a truly stupid question: "What might KC have played on that tour that got cut?" His answer was precisely what I should've expected: "I don't remember. It was a long time ago." And so it was. Colin's Earthworks report is a lot like mine: the shock of seeing that band (with Tim Garland, a great addition to be sure) playing, of all things, "Beelzebub," and playing the beautiful re-entry one might remember from "Bridge of Inhibition" from *Footloose in NYC,* absolutely made me cry. I want music to move me like that. I want it to make me laugh, or weep without shame, or feel horror, or joy. This is, after all, the troubador's calling. Musicians have the same imperative. Bruford knows it, and so does Fripp. They work accordingly. And this is why we pay attention. BTW, I just got my copy of *Zoom Club* today, and the improv "Zoom Zoom" moves me as well. How blessed the people in the audience that night were, because what happened on that stage that night was true improvisation, true daring. Sonic quality be damned, that set burned the way I want to hear music burn. I want true and genuine risk, and if on one night or another the music should fail, so what? You pay your money and take the risk. Yours is nothing compared to theirs, the musicians,' whether the music is composed or wholly improvised. You can walk away and forget. The musicians, I promise, never will. I'm truly grateful for the *Zoom Club* discs, and hope that the Collectors' Club will continue in whatever form it may. Fripp may or may not now be bored to tears with ET posts, but he should know from one lifelong fan (and a lot of the rest of us as well) that this music, from inception through every incarnation, has value, real value for people who are listening, trying to at any rate. One last, quick note to the poster who mention the Frank Zappa site's slowness with actually getting music to the subscribers, I agree that Vaulternative Records coudl learn one helluva lot from DGM, and for one I've mentioned this to them. BTW, thge new *FZ: OZ* is well worth the money for some of the same reason that *Zoom Club* is -- actually, the recording quality is better ( OK, we're talking about a recording from '76 as opposed to late '72, fair enough), and you get an incredible ur-version of "Let's Move to Cleveland" as well as a previously-unreleased tune titled "Kaiser Rolls." The Family Trust is committed to quicker turnaround time on new issues; maybe they're watching DGM, eh? I will say that the folks at Barfko-Swill are diligent and dedicated, and while I too waited a long damn time for the CD's to arrive, the result was worth every day I waited. Anyway, I hope with my heart and my money that the CC should continue. Robert, there are thousands of us out us here who will continue to support the endeavour. You don't owe it to us. In fact, you don't owe us a thing. You and the musicians with whom you've played over the years paid us a very long time ago. You know that as we do. Many Thanks. We'll keep listening as long as we have ears with which to hear. John Wylam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:45:43 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: live tool experiance >I was incredibly impressed by Tool-- I felt a few years ago that King >crimson and Tool would be an incredible combination, and I really regret not >being aboe to see them but due to very tight funds, I had to miss out Well, if they played together in an arena then you didn't miss much. I just saw Tool with Tomohawk in the Continental Arena (sporting my red Discipline shirt if anyone noticed me) and i had THE WORST SEATS ever.. the only good thing was that they were in the middle. THE CROWD WAS HORRIBLE. I was surrounded by drunk idiots who seemed to have no business there.. I was suprised, however, that they knew more words to the songs than I did. Who are they? Why are they ruining my experiance? I guess Tool attracts a broader fan base then I expected. During what is at the moment (and has been since Lateralus came out) my favorite song, The Patient, they were chatting about cigarettes the whole time! I finally had to tell them to shut the hell up. My point being that the crowd HATED Tomohawk. They weren't open minded or at all interested in new bands or music. I liked Tomohawk and happened to think their bass and some of their songs were similar to Tool, making them a good opening act. Not to mention that I love Mike Patton and find anything he is involved with at least worth listening to. The rest of the drunken idiots didnt seem to agree. Seeing King Crimson in an environment like that would have ruined my experiance completely, so I'm glad I didnt see that tour. (However I think they played smaller venues then.. so I guess that would have been better). I can't remember if I gave a review of my Tool experiance on this newsletter or not, but since it was just brought up I might as well summarize... The music experiance was incredible... though I had problems with other aspects of the show. Specifically the venue and the crowd. NEVER SEE A BAND LIKE THAT IN AN ARENA. Its almost not worth it. Especially if you have tickets in the the highest section of the arena, about 10 rows from the back. And also because an event in a venue with such a huge capacity has a tendancy, I've just realized, to attract people you might not want to be seated next to. The set variety was not that great, but that's ok with me because I happen to think Lateralus is their finest album yet. With each listening experiance I love it even more. They played material from that album mostly, almost the entire album actually. My friend was entirely disapointed in that respect, because he doesn't even have Lateralus and only got like lets say 4, maybe 5 songs he really knew and has grown into. The set was a decent length, however I'd love to see them play for 3 1/2 hours. I'm not sure why you have to be a 'jam band' to play 3hour shows.... I'd like to see Tool release a 3 disc live set that isnt a compilation of live material, but rather an entire live show start to finish. but that wasnt much of an issue for me because of how amazing the music was. I was a little frustrated by Maynard's position on the stage. I had mixed feelings about that, which had a lot to do with how bad my seats were since I could hardly see him at all. But I do like that the bass player and guitar player were in the foreground. Their playing was just as impressive as I expected, because I hold them to very high standards as musicians. The Drummer is absolutely incredible. I was told he has studied drumming and has a degree in it. Apparently he wanted to become a basketball player so he took up drumming to help coordinate his arms and legs.. and boy did that pay off. He played an amazing drum solo, everyone was blown away. The most impressive part of the show for me (other than hearing "The Patient" in its full beautiful glory) was when they played their little trilogy of songs that are near the end of Lateralus.. I forget what they are called. its about 25 minutes long or so, it was a completely beautiful experiance. What I was so impressed with was Maynard's positivity.. Before they played the songs I just mentioned he spoke about positivity and how this music is made to bring your spirit to a higher level of positivity. after the show the band embraced eachother in a group hug. It was very uplifting. No Encore... that bugged me. But, hey what can you do. All around for my first (but not last) Tool show I got what I wanted (for the most part) musically. I reaally couldnt care less what they play because its all amazing. So I HIGHLY recommend anyone see them if they can. They are one of the best bands out there. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:55:52 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: Why Crimson? >I wonder if there are prog bands to whom readers of ET no >longer lend their loyalty? And if you do still follow Crimson, can you tell >me why? that is a VERY good question- It's interesting because the very person who got me into them, a big prog/jazz fan, really doesn't know any of their music since THRAK. He stopped buying albums after that or caring about what they were up to. What's worse is that when they played in New Haven he didn't even go, (HE LIVES 10 MINUTES FROM THE THEATER)... in fact I went to his house BEFORE the show that very night to borrow smoe more KC cds i hadn't yet heard. It was a stunning display on his part, and I still wonder why. He expressed interest in me making copies of the new stuff for him, but I haven't done it yet, mostly because I don't think he much cares. Who knows why.. He loves THRAK, it's not that he lost faith after that , I really don't know what it is. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:26:53 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: The Best Impov I've Ever Seen Hello ETers, Just as in my last post I couldn't remember if I had reviewed my Live Tool experiance for the newsletter or not, now I can't remember if I've reviewed my last Live Medeski Martin and Wood experiance.. so I'll do it now (maybe for the second time). I was privledged enough to obtain very hard to get tickets (no easy task.. much frustration involved) to one of the 3 consecutive MMW shows at their home club, NYC's TONIC. This is by far the smallest club I've ever been to. I am actually almost sure that I have reviewed this show for ET , so I won't get into too much detail unless someone asks. The point of this post is in the title, as THE ENTIRE SHOW (except one venture into an actuall song during the second set) WAS COMPLETELY IMPROVISED(including the encore.. a risky move i thought). Now, they have done this before. In fact they released a limited edition Live Album from TONIC that is completely improvised as well(called Electric Tonic). However, I was not expecting this at all. They played with such ability and skill, I've never seen a band work as a unit better. I never got to see KC live in the 70s as I was not yet born, but MMW are the most impressive improvisors I've ever seen live. I've seen them several times before, and of course they improvised then, but to improvise and entire 2 hour concert is something very special. It could have been a total disaster and waste of time as well, but it wasn't. Some of their most interesting music came out of that session, it was so tight I wasn't sure at the time whether or not it was improv or just songs I havent heard that are a little more free form than usual. Now I have confirmation that it was just about all Improv and I'm even more impressed knowing for sure now than I was after the show. They work as one musical entity, and while they may not know where they are going with the music, they know exactly what they are doing. It was a very special night, and what made it even more amazing is that the 100 or so lucky people who squeezed into that club were 3 feet from the band and could hear every single thing to come out of every part of the band. Be it Billy's strange percussion instruments (he's gotten an impressive array of different instruments since the last time I've seen them) to Chris slamming the side of his bass as it sounded like he was playing a beat on the wood and a groove on the bass at the same time, to John breathing heavy inbetween his incredible bluesy piano solos... MAN, if you like improv you should try to obtain a copy of those 3 days (as far as i know all 3 were mostly improv.. 8/21-23 at Tonic) -Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:50:39 -0700 From: "Brian Pearson" Subject: On discovering new music, & the plight of the record industry I realize this has been hammered on a bit, & Toby will probably close the thread any day now, but I would like to note that: (1) There is LOTS of intelligent, interesting new music being created & released, & (2) Virtually NONE of it is being released on major labels, played on commercial radio, or sold in mainstream (ie. corporate chain) record stores. The mainstream record industry has increasingly devoted itself to pandering to the lowest common denominator of popular taste, & hence is shoveling out ever more execrable garbage (just listen to the radio--it's horrible!) while ignoring the niche markets which once combined to form a small but meaningful percentage of sales. Then they charge exorbitant prices for inferior product, & wonder why people are downloading free files rather than purchasing! So like Mark (?) said, you gotta do your research. Most of the interesting music is on independent labels, & carried by independent distributors. Support your local independent record store if it still exists--odds are the owner is a music geek & will try to carry (or special-order) the good stuff along with the mainstream crap which is his bread & butter. For what you can't get there, check the mail order distributors. I suspect most ET readers are interested in progressive/ experimental music, so I will mention here The Artist Shop (which frequently posts announcements to ET), Wayside Music (subsidiary of Cuneiform Records--go to their website & click the link), Strange Fortune (which carries lots of imported dark ambient, industrial, electronic, neo-folk & just plain weird stuff) & Projekt which specializes in ethereal goth & mellow electronic ambient (including the Fripp-Fayman collaboration "Temple in the Clouds"). Sorry I don't have links handy for all these--a Google search will turn them up quickly. Most of these distributors price their product significantly lower than the chain stores ($10-15 per CD is typical), & include reviews or at least short descriptions of each item to help you decide. If a particular artist looks interesting, you may find free downloadable samples on their (or the distributor's) website to get a taste of what they're about. So major label sales may be down compared to previous years, but I for one have actually bought MORE new music in the past year than ever before--largely as a result of becoming aware of the indie distributors. Boycott the majors. Boycott the corporate chain stores. Support the indies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:29:24 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: 'internet theft' >It's just wonderful that so many have gotten exposed to new musics thanks to >internet theft. I hope that when you all write a great piece of music and >it gets published on the net without your permission, that you feel so well >about this pheneomenon. good lord that is ridiculous. I don't want to start some debate over the benifits/evils of "INTERNET THEFT", but I just had to say something. Do you have any idea how much MONEY I've spent because of that so called INTERNET THEFT? Do you have any idea how much of that fellows money KING CRIMSON has gotten because he got introduced to them through INTERNET THEFT? I'd like you to make that statement to the many many many artists (most of whom are independant and need all the money they can get, interestingly enough) who support this form of musical exposure. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:20:48 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: Lizard, VCS3 and FX, Industry Lies, Hacks, Packaging, Nashville 2001 Hi all, Beware long post ahead! Lots of Talk about Lizard so I thought i'd chime in as well. When I first had this LP (2nd hand) I did not really get it at first. One of those albums (not a problem I knew) that would take time to get to know. We get an idea of what Yes would have been like if RF had joined; if he had seen his musical development sufficient to be able to function other than as leader. We get the wonderful title track full of moods and changes with some of the most exqisite melodies and the twist at the end as the Cirkus (love those diminished fifths in the title track!)comes back into town. I won't pretend to get the lyrics of Lizard. But the image of elephants forced to eat the floors of their cages is a frightening one indeed. You are not going to get this on format industry issued pulp. Lady of the Dancing Water is a very pretty and lyrical moment, no X-File lurking behind this and it should be appreciated for what it is and just how much more eloquently KC can present a gentle song without having to overdo anything such as that pulp industry. But Lizrd is a prime achievement as a piece. Haskell's bass is really fine,I for one amomng all you others have always appreciated this fine playing. If anyone dislike the vocals perhaps that might be down to the VCS3 worked by Peter Sinfield. Did Boz Burrell ever get annoyed at having someone fiddle with his vocal while he was playing and singing? Really I cannot think of anyone that would allow someone else to apply an effect to their instrument. Panning and mixing sound from the desk is one thing but having another manage the effectmust be surely one of the most annoying things to happen to a musician. Two opinions one voice and RF probably had his views as well. I think we're lucky they managed to get a whole LP done in the first instance. Another example of these 3rd party applied FX is that I once read that the Zep mixer applied the FX to Bonzo's solo but this was not so. He had a pedal for the synthesised Tympani section. The mixer panned the sound though stereo and that was it. Imagine someone adjusting Fripp's FX for him and adding say 'phasers and samplers' ;)...(I know he does not use these)... can you imagine the Wrath OF Robert. Caramba... It's a measure of RFs inspiration (or control freakery if your prefer) to have such talent in his band and they put up with someone 'interfering' with their voice, as that other person sees fit. As for the industry whining about how it suffers... Hahahaha. 7%? How the hell do they know? 7% of what? It's unregulated, this biz. Are all CD sales taken into account? Yes? Are you lying industry? Hardly matters, they say what they like have so much pulling power and money force, who's to gainsay them. What a farce!! Once these swine start throwing unreferenced percentage points at the public I know they are lying. They are musical bureaucrats and the critics are their spin doctor consultants. Imagine that you are some hack who has to provide a 200 to 300 word summation of 'Lamb lies Down' for example. Plus a stack of other free albums (whatever format...). It's their job to say what they are paid to say. It's their office or factory and no (or not much) original thought is going to emerge here. What does yer average journo really care about thwe much vilified Topographic Oceans? Just that he has to 'wade through' 4 20 minute pieces when he could be in a pub. So they all get in line, publish their rubbish and get sauced. Then Joe Public buys rag with quick words and has their heart and musical mind affected by this scarcely qualified drivel. BTW I do not mean a well thought out negative review. I mean drivel. prog rock suffers most as ever. No image really to sell is the problem... It relies on, gasp, music... Downloading files is one thing. I don't, I actually confess to having no idea and do not really care. I love the old way of going out to the shops and finding the music I need to hear. Been like that since I was a kid. the only thing that's changed is finding new (that I have not heard) music that will effect me. Can't wait for the new EP and Nuevo Metal. Is TCOl going to get the remastered repackaged treatment? i've read so much about how bad it sounds I do not have it. I make do with Heavy Construction instead. Are new releases (Nuevo Metal)going to be avaialable in card sleeves as well as jewel cases?. I hope so. No reason why the good LP artwork cannot get it's rightful presentation. Another example of Industry ripping us off. Physical Graffiti and LZ 111 (my favourite art work) is not meant to be a bit of paper in a plastic case. Bootleggers do better than this! Who the hell does this up itself industry think we are? Rolling Stones replica releases get it right. Replica artwork presented inside a plastic case. Best of both worlds there. Thanks for putting up with my ire toward the industry. Diatribe, dissension, debate... I needed that but the ill feeling (on my part) to the industry is still there... One last KC thing. Someone mentioned that first listeners should not be first exposed to KCCC releases. Maybe not but one example to prove that rule is the 2001 Live In Nashville. I've raved about this before and see and hear no reason to stop now. It is first class in every way I can think. Any new listener wanting to hear some KC in the 21st C. Best place to start! soon Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 15:05:09 +0400 From: "George Khouroshvili" Subject: Forthcoming KC DVD >From: "Danny Stamper" >Subject: KC on DVD > >I can hardly wait until the "Three of a Perfect Pair/The Noise" dvd comes >out, but I think I can speak for many fans as well as myself when I say >that >it's high time that a dvd containing the "Construkction of Light/Level 5" >tours is highly overdue! Hi, Yes, I think the idea to release a DVD with the new KC material is great. By the way, does anyone know if Robert plans to include two 80's KC videos (Heartbeat & Sleepless) on the forthcoming DVD (Noise / 3 of a perfect pair)? I believe it would be the proper place for them. Anyway, now it is almost impossible to find those videos, I only saw Sleepless once about 4 years ago. Best wishes, George Visit the 1st Russian King Crimson & related news projeKCt at www.agharta.net/providence.html Sorry, temporarily in Russian only. **************************************** |/ | |\ | /_ / |\ | |\ /| /_ /\ |\ | |\ | | \| \/ \/ |\ | | \/ | / \/ | \| **************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 07:32:32 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: Gary at Artist's Shop At 11:37 PM 9/3/02 GMT, Phillip wrote: >Gary hit the nail on the head, at least in my case. I have purchased fewer >CDs this year than last year, not because I am downloading more, not because >of the economy, but because I haven't heard anything I want to buy. > And this is a shame, really, because there is so much good music being released all the time. But it's all being released by the indi labels or the artists themselves. And most of the time they do not have the financial resources to get these releases on the radio so people like Phillip can hear them. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:49:35 +0100 From: "Tim Rosser" Subject: Why Crim / Jonathan Boulter Jonathan Boulter is I think spot on for the enduring quality of the Crim, perhaps I might add by way of embellishment to his list that this also helped by the fact that King Crimson never seem to have seen themselves as a 'prog' band, but as a voice for the muse as and when it arises. In this sense they actually fairly free of their past, as just about every Crimson record is attempting to be itself rather than be 'ItCotCK', if that sounds woolly listen to Yes's 'Keys to ascension's and you hear an inferior 'Close to the Edge', 'tCoL' is not even remotely trying to 'live up to' Lizard or Beat or anything else. Tim PS Can I just say, despite my Yes bashing above, Magnification does have some lovely stuff on it and is well worth a look ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:40:07 -0400 From: "Brown, Ken (Totowa)" Subject: Downloading Music While I really don't want to get into the whole debate of downloading music, because it is like the which sounds better lp/cd debate. Lots of opinions: few real answers. I do have a few questions to for those : 1) Do you think the Record companies really care about the artists in their 'fight' against downloading music? (I realize most understand that they (record companies) don't care, but feel the artist is being violated, which I understand) I would wager that Record companies swindle Artists out of more royalties, then money artists lose over downloading. (And no I am not offering that as a justification for it) 2) Have you ever sold/bought a used cd? (Again I realize that a percent of you don't because the artists doesn't collect on it.) The Record Industry seems never to mention how the Now series of cds has cut into their sales. Now Series, for those who do not know, collects the radio hits on one cd. So instead of a kid needing to buy 15 cds to get the songs they want, they buy one. Keep the Faith (in the Music) Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:26:32 -0400 From: "Steven Paul Rewa B.S." Subject: the hook Somebody mentioned something about Earthworks recordings to hook themselves on. I can't speak to that as I haven't explored that group at all myself, but he also mentioned discipline as a good KC hook and I think that's true. That's the one that got me. It also reminds me of a funny story. A friend of mine noticed that I had a lot of KC mp3's and he told me he had a band teacher in high school who used to listen to them in his office after school. He said he could only really remember one song, but he didn't know what it was called and could only tell me that it was really weird. I said "I repeat myself when under stress...?" "That's it! That's it! That's the one!" Anon, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:59:08 -0700 From: Brian Mafi Subject: Beating a New Crimson Thunderbird Hello, "GenoTT at aol dot com" writes in response to my Thunderbird inquiry: "All right, since it's been asked, I'll speak up. KCNN radio has been playing all three (!) parts of Pat & Trey's 'Thunderbird' suite - a total of 40 minutes or so. And I have to say I like it more and more. It's not the kind of thing they'd just release an album of as-is, but it's a nice fascinating groove nonetheless. Imagine.. well, ProjeKct 3 without Fripp. The overall sound reminds me of the Heaven & Earth disc. Pat just thumps along with some steady beats, playing around with the electronic trappings from time to time, while Trey adds a nice floating bass line. (His tone reminds me of "Superbottomfeeder" - it's really sweet to hear.) Some occasional high-end is present, but it's largely a bass thing. Not much else to say.. just some straight jams. I do think it's good." Geno, thanks for the input. I'm hoping they somehow get this out as a MP3, some sort of downloadable/purchase type deal. I play bass, so I'm always interested in Trey's musical offerings, as well as Pat's. Both of those guys transcend the trad. role of their instruments...well, Trey is treading the line between the guitar/bass sonic spectrum, and Pat with with his loops and programmed rhythms is MUCH more than yer average rock drummer. I'm dying to hear this 'Bird thing! I did send an e-mail to Pat, to which he kindly replied: not sure mp3 is the thing to do at this moment. . not impossible. . . at a later date. Jordan replied to my: >Trey & Pat improvising for approx. 15 minutes in the studio, and NOBODY >here that claims to be a die-hard Crimson fan finds that worthy of >mention/discussion/praise/condemnation?!?!?!? Jordan sez: "I didn't get a chance to hear the Trey and Pat improv thing, nor do I check the websites that much. I wasn't even aware that there is a songlist available. Perhaps these things mean that I am not a DIEHARD Crimhead, though my friends might disagree. However, despite personally being apart of this problem, I also notice more indepth discussion of things non-Crim than things Crim a good deal of the time. However, had you posted this songlist I would have responded with my thoughts." Jordan, I would never claim who is and who isn't a big fan of our Crim gents...I wuz just prodding, trying to get a reaction! Unfortunately, that white board photo is no longer in Pat's Diary...I'm not computersmart enough to be able to find/retrieve it...any takers? I think it had tunes we've seen/heard (Virtuous Circle, Level V, Dangerous Curves), but had MANY others, possibly Crimson Blue, etc. Re: Beat; I was a solid Crim fan when that came out, and eagerly purchased it from Tower Records the day it came out at approx. 9:01am...they opened at 9:00! Actually, I got Beat AND Lone Rhino the same day...as Ice Cube once said, "today wuz a good day". Speaking for a vinyl record, I found the first side absolutely magnificent (yes, including Heartbeat), and "Neurotica" equally magnificent. I'll never forget putting on the 2nd side, and not hearing anything, turning it up rather loud, only to have the Neurotica beginning BLAST IN AND SCARE THE CRAP OUTTA ME!!! 2 Hands, The Howler, and Requiem didn't quite resonate with me at the time, but I've grown to enjoy them. However, I still feel that Neal& Jack & Me, Heartbeat, Sartori, and Waiting Man are an outstanding quartet of songs. Yes, it's somewhat like the Discipline album in construction, tones, styles. I could think of much worse music to be similar to... P, L, BS, Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 16:53:04 -0300 From: Javier Lopez de Casenave Subject: Bruford about Crimson Dear Eters, next September 28 Bill Bruford will be in Buenos Aires with Earthworks. Below is a short interview appeared in the Argentinean journal Clarin. I translated it for you; please forgive my quick translation. The original Spanish interview appears in http://old.clarin.com/diario/2002/09/01/c-01105.htm. Best wishes, javier Bruford: Rock bored me. It was funny by 70s and 90s; drummers could incorporate our influences into the music. From a long time ago, pop music is not part of the world opened by The Beatles, in which psychedelic experiments, minimalism, and mixes with jazz and classic music fit. When I realized that the rules of the game had change I came back to the jazz, my starting point. Journal: However you continued playing with King Crimson during 90s. Your relation with this band was more fruitful and lasting than with other bands. B: Yes, its true. King Crimson was the center of my spirit during a long time, it was when I worked best while I was a rock drummer. J: What of those works do you like most? B: Discipline y THRAK. By these years I still felt that I could give things to the group, but after 1997 I did want to play jazz seriously. I played all of I can with Crimson, I think, and when I did not find any novelty to do with them then I felt as an obligation to quit. J: You mentioned Discipline. How much of certainty is in the supposed strictness of Robert Fripp? B: Well, life is complicated for all people, even for Robert, who has a very warm heart, but he generally acts more with its head than with its heart. Surely their manners would be difficult to understand to Latin spirits like that from Argentineans, but I believe Saxons understand better such way of thinking. J: You played electric drums for many years, and it was your hallmark in the jazz world in some way. Why did you give up using it? B: Because the instrument wasnt sufficiently developed and it was very difficult to play it. Electric drum wasnt reliable, so industry stopped its production. They are manufactured in Japan only, although they have so simple format that they serve only to the most basic rock. J: You come to Argentina in a very hard moment, when very few international musicians are visiting us. What brings you here? B: The wish for being heard. I know Argentina is experiencing a great crisis, but I was there in 1994 and it was wonderful. I expect (in spite of the problems that afflict to the country) people still have the passion for music that they showed then. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:59:05 -0400 From: "Nik Smith" Subject: Re: Why Crimson? "1. They continually renew themselves. Unlike, say, Tull or Yes, Crimson, while maintaining an identifiable sound, recast its sound, its ethos. I know that other prog bands change sounds (the dreadful mid 80's Yes or Tull come to mind: compare Tull's Under Wraps with TOAPP, or Yes's 90120 with Beat) but...." That is the main reason why I consider them to be my favorite band. They haven't made a bad or even "Average" album yet. However, nothing on this bulletin makes me madder then to hear people insult Tull or Yes and to call them stagnant. Jethro Tull did the exact same thing that King Crimson did (the disbanding the members, to reform with a new one and a new sound, and to keep doing so for a while) and Yes did the same thing. It may not have been as good as 80s KC, but it was the 80s...the worst decade ever, and for pop-songs, they are great. Furthermore, J-Tull's latest albums and tours (ditto with Yes) are exactly the same kind of concerts that King Crimson does, and their (Tull and Yes) latest albums are very very good and show a re-birth of creativity. Just wanted to get that off of my chest since this gets mentioned FAR too much and no one ever defends them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:48:42 +0000 From: "satan's right hand" Subject: online music, artist mythos First of all, I would like to apologize for those who are angered by another argument of "is internet theft/file-swapping ok?" because that was not the intention of my original post(#1018). I just wanted to know if music available on the net CHANGED anyone's personal buying habits. Thanks to those who answered that as well as those of you who have been helpful in Bears info. Now, as an artist that has put music onto the net for free I guess I can say I have no idea what you(Mark with Clamshoe email#1022) are talking about, especially because you mentioned the kids who buy pop music--something I would never concern myself with. This leads to my next point. I don't give a shit about morality with distribution of internet music. What DOES concern me is that I think it's turned an emotional,insideously under the skin, get you where you live kind of experience for the ears and turned it into an objectified, passive, distanced and 'rational' sort of thing, especially when taken from context of an album. Does Larks Tongues in Aspic Pt. II have the same impact alone on the 'puter as it does on album right after The Talking Drum? Not to me, and therefore I will continue to buy albums from bands that are good as a way to support them and tell them people appreciate what they do. I will also talk to them after shows to present something other than commerce--i.e. real human communication. These guys aren't gods, they're regular Joes like you and I. You can't sit there and pander to them and at the same time you can't denounce them as though they have no feelings(hear me you Adrian bashers!?). They're humans and so are all of you. That is all for now. Take care, Jeramaya, the sun-loving ape "Seems like there's always more duty/Maybe that's the beauty." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:51:06 -0400 From: "Bruce Seeliger" Subject: deja vroom DVD Hello: Have any other Crim-heads had problems playing back this DVD on a "regular" DVD player? I've found, in particular, that the tracks w/ multiple angles will skip or stall. Any suggestions? Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:59:56 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: A personal view about Larks' Tongues... Hi all, I have recently mentioned that it was very hard for me to make a ranking of KC albums, and that I did not like the idea too much... But I just couldn't resist temptation! And I wanted to say some words about Larks' Tongues In Aspic, which I think is the album that summarizes KC's concept of music. Everything is there: shocking and emotional melodies, electric storms with good guitar riffs, tender ballads, complex and unusual harmonic constructions, and great lyrics (I always take Exiles as one of my favourites). I also believe that, following the tendency of many bands of that time (such as Pink Floyd or Jethro Tull) it was arranged as a "conceptual album", as I see that the whole album has a meaning, maybe because of the order in which tracks were placed, or the evolution of the melody through the record. But I don't want to forget two other albums which are very close to this one: Starless and Bible Black and Red: they are also fantastic, so I can accept to put these two with LTIA! All the best, Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:04:25 -0400 From: "Steven Paul Rewa B.S." Subject: Re: Why Crimson? I read Jonathan Boulter's post in ET 1022 and I have a couple of responses. I can't answer your question of why or why not we continue to follow KC. If I had to venture a guess I'd say it was because they keep making music and we still enjoy it. I know it seems simple, but I don't see why it should be more complicated. I agree with your statement that King Crimson's reinvention goes a long way to keeping our interest, but I do have to say that Jethro Tull DOES reinvent itself at least as much as KC does. "This Was" is completely different than Stand-up through Aqualung were. Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play are totally different yet again. Then you have Songs from the Wood and Heavy Horses. They had about 5 albums in the 80's that were sub-par, but the other 25 or so are all quite good. The sound they had with Roots to branches is again very different than what was present on Catfish Rising. Ian Anderson's playing now is better than it's ever been and the instrumentation of the songs gets more interesting as he keeps writing. In my opinion Crest of a Knave and TOAPP are a fairly good comparison in that they're about the worst output of either band. That isn't to say that either are bad. I listen to them both quite often. I don't mean to be argumentative, and I see your point. It just seems to me that a lot of the time when I hear people on this list making comparisons of JT and KC they look at Tull as more stagnant, but I really feel that Tull is the more various of the two. Hope I didn't upset anyone. Anon, -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 22:17:06 +0100 From: Paul Timms Subject: Re: Moonchild Remake Thank you to the people who told me the remake is by Doves. I downloaded an mp3 of the song and it was indeed the one I heard. The problem was that the radio station merged the end of the M62 song with a song by Gomez which sounded like it was a progressive track from the 70's (it's called I'm Joining New Order and appears as a bonus track on the 4 Scott album) and so I assumed it was part of the same song. Since Moonchild starts off as a gentle song and then changes into an improvised instrumental, I thought maybe the band who were copying it were trying to do the same thing. I was driving when I heard it so I couldn't quite give the radio my full concentration! So that explains that little mystery. It was just very surprising to hear it, as you can well imagine. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:06:45 -0400 From: "Justin Weinberg" Subject: Adrian's KC Solos I've been subscribing to ET for many many years, and I don't remember this topic being discussed, so I throw it out to the crowd: Which of Adrian's guitar solos as a member of King Crimson is your favorite? Here is one of my candidates: The solo that begins about three minutes into "Waiting Man" on _Beat_. Here Belew constructs a solo entirely out of one of his signature sounds--those squawking smears. It is an abstract, creative, restrained solo that really adds to the song. Anyone? Justin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 15:17:57 +0930 From: "Nearly .." Subject: Tony Levin Rig I came to King Crimson via Discipline after reading a review in one of the guitar magazines (Guitar Player??) which was a joint review with Synchronicity by The Police (I was a big fan back then) which inspired me to buy the album. As a bass player one of the most immediately attention grabbing thing about the record was the fact that Tony Levin was making some of the biggest & fattest bass sounds I had ever heard. I can't remember which I heard first, but Peter Gabriel IV (Security) was on my record player at about the same time. The bass lines on songs like Shock the Monkey had a profound effect on my ear for music which enhanced my appreciation of Krimson (I'm steering around the dead PG thread!). I was wondering if anyone had any information on the rig that Tony used for those sessions, I already have some info about his Discipline era setup (including a Roland Jazz Chorus for the high end on his Stick) and was interested in knowing if the PG sessions used the same setup to get that wonderful thick, profound bottom end. Also, if anyone has a copy of that Discipline/Synchronicity review I would love to read it again. It really was my entrance into the wonderful world of King Crimson which is till going strong 20+ years later (which is more than I can say for my interest in The Police!) Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 06:22:07 -0700 (PDT) From: jerry keller Subject: KC at central park i was at this show in 1974 . one of the people who reviewed it said that golden earring opened and then KC. i would swear that GE did indeed open but then starcastle played and then KC. am i right on this? or am i confusing starcastle with another show? any help? jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 21:21:17 +0100 From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Markus Holl=E4nder?=" Subject: Peter's Pedal Harmonium Hi everyone, on _Islands_ Fripp is credited with playing "Peter's Pedal Harmonium". Does anyone know who Peter is? My first guess was (of course) Sinfield, but it could also be Peter Hammill, who does have a pedal harmonium. So, anyone got any insider info? BTW, it took me a long time to realise that the opening sounds of "Gog" (on PH's _In Camera_) are not produced by an organ, but by said harmonium. Never knew these instruments could sound so downright evil... Markus -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 01:31:11 -0400 From: "Peter Badore" Subject: Responses to negative comments - last time, I hope! First of all, let me just note the simple fact that Toby & Co. print negative views proves they are not censorship zealots. As many ETers have pointed out, they have the right to refuse letters for understandable reasons. I myself had a couple of submissions not published, but I'm not going to waste my time telling you that. (Wait a minute...) After considering my responses to two people late last year and a private response to Maggie P. regarding her post in ET #1022, I am requesting a few more things which should be practiced when someone makes negative BUT FAIR comments: 1. Similar to the request that a lengthy reprinting of someone else's post and the words "Me too" not be submitted, don't simply say you disagree and leave it at that. Tell us why. Fortunately, most of us don't practice such chilishness, but there's always one in every crowd. 2. Try not to indulge in name-calling. Sometimes, as in the case of Ali Janab, it can't be helped, considering the context of his post. But please don't be a hate-monger out of disagreement alone. Again, most of us aren't like this; nevertheless a minority prevails. 3. Most importantly, focus on the subject of the disagreement. Instead of getting huffy with the original poster, offer a contradicting view of the subject. The great French filmmaker Jean-Luc Godard said that the best way to criticize a movie is to make another one, and I feel the same should go for opinions. If Maggie P. does not agree with Alec Sugar's view that Ian Wallace is a "dull and plodding" drummer, she should have offered a more positive enlightenment - that is, her explanation of why he's great, if I am to assume correctly by her e-mail address that she's a drummer (or drummer-fan) herself. There is a lot of potential in something like that. As the title of this post states, I'd like everyone to consider this, although I'm not expecting any miracles considering we are mainly a reacting rather than thinking society. And I do get tired of being repetitive, but sometimes it can't be helped. Thanks for your (my?) indulgence again, Peter ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1024 *********************************