Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1022 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1022 Tuesday, 3 September 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: California Guitar Trio concert in Philly this Saturday Music/Tool/Bruf/food in Milwaukee.... Re: Moonchild remake RF guitar tone Re: *LIZARD* Why Crimson? Re: Sleepless bassline Opinions internet theft and sleepless bassline KC on DVD New Crimson EP towards a new music industry List of receivers ingeniously withheld for your viewing pleasure. Gary at Artist's Shop 30th Anniversary versions in jewel cases? Re: Free "Live in Berkeley"? The Language of Birds Lizard; conjecture; 21st CSB in concert!; Alan's birthday; ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 08:40:48 -0400 From: Alan Lankin Subject: NEWS: California Guitar Trio concert in Philly this Saturday Thought I'd mention this upcoming concert: California Guitar Trio -- with Greg Howard -- CGT's new album is "CG3+2" (Inside Out Music) -- Sedgwick Showcase, Sedgwick Cultural Center, 7137 Germantown Ave, Mt. Airy, Philadelphia, PA Sept 7 (Sat) -- 7:30 pm -- $18 advance / $22 door (discounted for members) More info: http://www.sedgwickshowcase.com/ Alan Lankin -- lankina at att dot net Jazzmatazz http://jazzmatazz.home.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:58:57 -0500 From: "Colin Beaumier" Subject: Music/Tool/Bruf/food in Milwaukee.... Hey! Just a post regarding some recent observations-- I had posted a long time ago but have been very busy with cooking school and life so as not to post as of the last few years....I am back in Milwaukee cooking and taking in a lot of the music scene- noth original at all, but a lot of great acts come here for the world festivals and concert tours. As per the last few months, I have seen Earthworks a couple of times and tool 2X-- I am really surprised at the lack of information about both as they are both important in that they feature people that are progressing , not just as musicians, but as people, too. Bill's current lineup was *fantastic*, and the fact that they are still turning on people to look at jazz is important-- when I saw him in chicago, he mentioned a story regarding the album Starless and Bible Black coming from an old book and what it meant, but silly me, I was not estute enough to write it down. Another thing I saw was that he was very interactive with the audience afterwards, something that I know a lot of musicians feel at odds about, but he lined up with people for signings, pictures, or just t5o talk, which is cool because it shows you that even in this high point that we hold out musical heros, that they are in fact still human just like we are. I was incredibly impressed by Tool-- I felt a few years ago that King crimson and Tool would be an incredible combination, and I really regret not being aboe to see them but due to very tight funds, I had to miss out-- all of the stuff I read about with the postings here at that time were very disillusioned-- I saw them in chicago and in Milwaukee (yesterday) and my dear friends, this was not just a concert, it was very near a holy spiritual experience-- and I am not a very religious person. These people played as a unit: and perhaps Robert Fripp and Maynard Kennan had an effect on each other as far as ego or the effect of Music goes-- th esetup was the Guitarist (Adam Jones) and the bass player (Justin Chancellor) up front and Maynard ( voice) and Danny Carey on drums in the back-- you had no choice but to experience the music and not a lot of flash from individuals-- the were *one* unit! Also-- the show featured two screens of the artwork and effects of Adam Jones ( he helped with Edward Scissor's hands, predator, and the terminator movies--) the stuff they did with the lighting and effects was intense and featured a lot of mandala type of effects that were very moving, coinciding with the music. And Danny Carey to me seems like one of the guys (along with Pat) who is carrying the tourch of true musicality of the drumset into the next level (whatever that may be). He worked with a lot of symmetry in his setup and (unless I am wrong) also featured some symbolism with a seven pointed type star which also matched their lighting setup at times--- I left with more questions and curiosities after the show (what does that symbol mean? Was it a take on the merkaba or that goofy-ass Enneagram that has been bastardized by wannabe numerologists in california?!?) Anyhoo, they evoked a lot of mystery too, which is part of the mystique of rock and roll, right? remember, these are our heroes! They also featured some of the incredible artistry of the great Alex Grey which is just beyond words but not beyond inspiration check out http://www.alexgrey.com if you have time. The music was fantastic and the lead singer stressed the importance of having an open heart and open mind, evoking the upcoming anniversary of the Sept 11 tragedy, he said that we can remember the people who died that day with our hearts and our minds and try to focus on having a positive experience from music and from each other. He closed with some humor too: "right now, lets all get naked.... grab a pole, fill a hole, and thank you for your support!" AND at both shows, people sat and took in the experience, there was no moshing or violence-- I had taken some people from work to both Tool shows and to Earthworks and the personal effect I got made my soul dance a little-- things like "Bill Bruford has the most incredible time I have ever heard" to "wow, I can't believe a drummer wrote that!", to just plain mouth dropping reactions to Tool and the fact that the message of what you should get from a musical experience: positive energy, was so forward and REAL! I feel great that I got to expose some people to some new great thing like this-- one friend mentioned that he felt that TOOL played in minor keys a bit too much for him but he was blown away but the variations and the tightness that they showed... I was curious as Tool lets parts of the individual players outside influences into their shows: artwork, symbolism, opinion and belief-- I have never seen it in other groups, ever... I know that Tony Levin like to cook and motorcycles are kind of a hobby for him, ( and that the guys in King Crimson like racing games at the arcade *8-) ) but I was curious -- what else does Robert or Pat and Adrian and Trey do outside of music for inspiration? It is fairly impossible for someone to solely do music with out getting a bit burned out, so what does the artist do for fun outside of his or her art? not really asking a question.... just curious..... Regardless. Tool was incredible and I would make a special trip to see them if anyone has the opportunity. It was well worth it! Take care, Colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 08:50:39 -0400 From: "Jack Bross" Subject: Re: Moonchild remake Responding to Paul Timms' question about a remake of Moonchild heard recently on the radio: It's almost certainly the band Doves. On their latest album, "The last broadcast", they do a version of Moonchild under the title "M62 Song". The word "moonchild" is replaced with "moonshine" (not "moonstone" as posted by PT). For the record, they give full credit where credit is due, and I assume they obtained permission. It's a very good album, although actually I don't particularly like the Moonchild thing. Most of their songs combine a sort of vintage U2-style chiming guitar sound with sort of a "The Bends" era Radiohead vibe, to give you a rough idea. -- Jack Bross jabross at bellsouth dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 08:47:09 -0500 From: Scott & Chris May Subject: RF guitar tone I sat up close and personal to the RHVL during the Drive to 1984, when he played the record store I worked at. Besides the "Skysaw" rig of two upended Revoxes, RF played a 3 pickup Les Paul Custom, into the "famed Fripperboard" which was a Pete Cornish rigged: Wah-Wah (I forget which brand), Electro-Harmonix Big Muff Fuzz tone, and a Volume Pedal. There were a few switches also which appeared to bypass the pedals. This rig went into a Roland Jazz Chorus Amplifier. Fripp sounded like Fripp, without a Hiwatt to be found. I used to work for Hiwatt America, and anybody looking to get the RF sound by overdriving a Hiwatt is barking up the wrong tree. The whole sound is in the fingers...RF's been saying that all along ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 10:11:11 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: *LIZARD* >My first problem is that while I find all of the songs interesting, >Gordon Haskell's vocals sound like he was holding his nose the whole >time, literally. Some singers have a very nasal tone that seeps into >their singing and on this album, that's what I hear. The worst part for >me is that despite how much I generally dislike that nasal-ness, on >these songs, it seems to fit in a creepy, foreboding kind of way. YES!!! It fits *perfectly*, & is just one of the aspects of LIZARD which makes it work so wonderfully. For me, LIZARD stands as Krimson`s monumental acheivement. The superb saxes & flutes of Mel Collins, the mad circus frenzy atmosphere, Haskell`s sinister vocals AND his bass guitar work (which no one ever seems to mention), Andy McCulloch`s mind-blowing drumming!, Fripp`s astonishing guitar work (both acoustic & electric) & compositions, Peter Sinfield`s absolutely brilliant lyrics, Jon Anderson`s contribution is some of his best work, the drowning mellotron washes , Keith Tippet`s always magnificent piano, the horn section from Soft Machine (Nick Evans, Mark Charig)..... it`s beautiful cover, AND the marbled inside gatefold. All of it`s unique & disparate elements make it the one Krimson album I play most constantly. A revelation w/ each listen,..........a true joy,..... I can only wish that Mr. Fripp would attempt another foray in it`s general direction. ~C ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:56:34 -0300 From: "Jonathan Boulter" Subject: Why Crimson? A question I wonder if you may consider or, indeed, may have considered: I have listened to progressive rock music for, well, 17 years or so; it started with Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull, and Crimson: these were my big four. I owned everything they put out, I made every effort to see them all (never did see Crimson...hmmm, wonder if I just answered my own question?...). And while I now maintain a genuine affection for all these bands (well, maybe not ELP) I cannot say that I follow them or even buy their music. Here's the thing: I do follow Crimson; I do buy all their stuff; I listen to them with great attention. I wonder if there are prog bands to whom readers of ET no longer lend their loyalty? And if you do still follow Crimson, can you tell me why? I'm not looking for reasons why Crimson is the greatest band (whatever that would mean). I'm looking for reasons why they still command your attention. I have some of my own ideas: 1. They continually renew themselves. Unlike, say, Tull or Yes, Crimson, while maintaining an identifiable sound, recast its sound, its ethos. I know that other prog bands change sounds (the dreadful mid 80's Yes or Tull come to mind: compare Tull's Under Wraps with TOAPP, or Yes's 90120 with Beat) but.... 2. Is it that Crimson play for the ideal listener? I remember Joyce writing for what he called the "ideal reader suffering from the ideal insomnia." I think it's safe to say that Crimson does not look for the "hit" song (I may be wrong on this, but I think not). 3. Perhaps it's an image thing: Fripp, I venture to say, does not care a great deal for fashion or image (although those ungodly, tight tank tops he seems to have worn in the 80's suggest otherwise!): can you compare Fripp and co. with, again, Yes in the 80's? Jon Anderson in what appears to be a gym outfit "working out" to "Owner of a Lonely Heart", sporting his nifty headband? 4. Perhaps it's because Fripp surrounds himself with able, young, musicians. The sound therefore must change to reflect the character of the band. (Ok this is the same as number 1). 5. Perhaps it's because Fripp has not drained his creative energies: unlike say ELP or Yes (who, frankly have not put out a genuinely challenging album in decades) Fripp manages to create music that does in fact provoke, irritate, nag (these are good qualities by the way...). Any thoughts would be welcome. And please, contrary to what may appear to be the case, I'm not here to slag those other bands. Well, maybe I am a wee bit.... My best to all true lovers of Crimson, Jonathan Boulter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:35:27 +0200 From: Krzysztof_Koz3owski Subject: Re: Sleepless bassline The delay is on the entire bass track, not only one string or something... The trick is, that the exact delay is rather short (about 0.1-0.2 sec.) and can be hardly heard, while the particular note sounds longer than that (it sounds rather like the chorus effect). The low notes, on which the delay is well heard, are very short, even muted. Just look at the way Tony Levin plays it on "Three Of A Perfect Pair - Live in Japan" video... Cheers Kozlo > Tad wrote: "He suggested that the bass did have a delay on it but only on > one string, which makes it rather difficult to reproduce. Anybody else have > any thoughts on this?" > > Mark wrote: I've been struggling to mimic that bassline with my own gear, > since I first > heard it. And I have made 0% progress. Like Hendrix, perhaps some of > these mysteries will never be known. ;~} . That is a kind of feasible > suggestion though with the one string being delayed. But I wonder which > one? The low one sounds doubled, but so does the high snappy one, to my > ears. And doubling bass can get real murky, fast. Another thought is that > my ear fools me into thinking Bill's kick drums are part of the bass sound. > Imagine if one had access to copies of the master tapes and could fiddle > around with the mix at home, just for giggles. Or a Cyberstudio on the > net. Hmm? Good question. Cheers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:35:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Maggie P Subject: Opinions "Alec Sugar" said: >"Islands, on the other hand, suffers from poor performance. The drumming is >particularly dull and plodding. It's no surprise that Wallace become Bob >Dylan's drummer for a while. I love Dylan, but his music has never had the >most exciting drumming." What exactly qualifies you to make such a pronoucement, to call someone's playing "dull and plodding"? Did it ever occur to you that you could simply state your preference for one over the other without being insulting? Granted, as you stated, it is just your opinion but one that would seem to be repeatedly refuted by some of the world's most successful and talented musicians, including Bob Dylan one of the most extraordinary singer/songwriters of our time. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:34:15 -0400 From: "Mark" Subject: internet theft and sleepless bassline It's just wonderful that so many have gotten exposed to new musics thanks to internet theft. I hope that when you all write a great piece of music and it gets published on the net without your permission, that you feel so well about this pheneomenon. Does anyone remember good old fashioned research? The buzz of reading reviews and scouring the record stores and finding that record that'll blow your mates away. And I hope that the creative types among you will be encouraged by the many of these optimistic posts that suggest that most everyone will go out and purchase a copy. But most won't, Trust me folks. Precious few will. Perhaps the good ET'ers with impeccable tastes and moral stoutheartedness will. But the kids that actually consume pop music (and once upon a time, payed for it) will find other ways to spend their hard earned cash than music thay can "file share"(read steal) off of the net. I recall having an almost perverse possesivness about my finds, NEVER making any copies, and being downright smug about having pieces of music my peers were not diligent enough to discover, or too cheap to pay for. I was bloody proud of my meager collection of 300 LP's. Re: sleepless bassline. There is an excellent version of it on B'Boom(live bootleg auth.) with a Levin prominent mix that allows us to hear the delay in question very nicely. I'm sure there are others but that one works for me, particularly the intro. best. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 19:59:29 -0700 From: "Danny Stamper" Subject: KC on DVD I can hardly wait until the "Three of a Perfect Pair/The Noise" dvd comes out, but I think I can speak for many fans as well as myself when I say that it's high time that a dvd containing the "Construkction of Light/Level 5" tours is highly overdue! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 19:05:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jimmy Bob Subject: New Crimson EP I just took a little jaunt over to CDNOW.com and it seems they have a listing for a new KC release set for October 8. The release (which we all anticipate to be an EP) is called (by CDNOW) "Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With". Well, that's all I could find for now. -jimmyboblw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Lord Subject: towards a new music industry I have some notes about how to begin to construct a new music industry through the specific instance of a single business. My specific concerns were: 1) Not restricting people from freely copying digital content. 2) Rewarding artists for their work; allowing them to retain ownership of their work. 3) Seeking out and encouraging new artists. 4) Enhancing and making more tangible to everyone the relationships between musicians, production crews, the manufacturers of CDs and other physical media, and the audience. There is a context to these notes - some new mechanisms for organizing money flow on the Internet, and so forth. They are reachable by links from the page named below. I'm curious to see whether there is enough to these notes to communicate some ideas, generate interest, etc. A good starting point is: http://www.regexps.com/labnotes/devo-meta-x/view-topic/GnuEconomy/Mp3Ripoff As a developer of Free Software, I was attracted to this quote: Let us sadly acknowledge, in the spirit of preparing the future and repairing the past, that the publishing industry and music industry has often and repeatedly failed to treat its artists honourably, equitably and with common decency. There are too many instances of abuse, exploitation and the betrayal of trust for us to view this world with equanimity, confidence or ease. [....] Cynicism and bitterness are natural, reasonable and likely responses for anyone, whether performer or audient, who knows a close relationship with those who control money flows within the music industry; music can be a gate to Paradise, but cynicsm holds us at the threshold. -- Discipline Global Mobile ("Robert Fripp: The Gates of Paradise") and used it on a related page: http://www.regexps.com/gift-economy.html -t ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 02:28:42 -0700 From: Android Subject: List of receivers ingeniously withheld for your viewing pleasure. Willdayble writes: Well just a few ETs ago I mentioned a band called 'Meshuggah'. I failed to mention that as far as 'dissonance' goes these guys are FAR ahead of the pack. I'd have to say I'm really yet to hear any guitarwork more complex and off-whack than the Thordendal solos (check out the tappy one in the middle of 'Perpetual Black Second' from the album 'Nothing'). I heard a few of their cuts. One I did like is called "Acrid Placidity". Wonderful guitar work in that one. What I really like about this one is the lack of that annoying speed-metal sound and the typical pointless guitar leads you hear in most of Yngwie Malmsteen's material, for example. Unfortunately, most of what I heard from Meshuggah has that speed-metal sound, which does nothing more than leave me with a headache. I am rather confident that our King Crimson will never add this style to their songs. The last thing I want to hear in a song is that "I just graduated from Guitar Institute - Look at what I can do" syndrome. So many potentially good songs have been ruined by this type of abuse. -- Ted ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 06:44:19 -0500 From: "Phillip Ciskowski" Subject: Gary at Artist's Shop Gary hit the nail on the head, at least in my case. I have purchased fewer CDs this year than last year, not because I am downloading more, not because of the economy, but because I haven't heard anything I want to buy. Phil Ciskowski ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 06:55:27 -0500 From: Lee Gray Subject: 30th Anniversary versions in jewel cases? > From: "Chris Costello" > > Which of the 30th Anniversay series have made it past the cardboard > packaging to regular jewel cases? Call me crazy, but I prefer plastic to > cardboard. I prefer the jewel cases too. I've found all of them except Starless. Lee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:47:34 -0400 From: "scott ventura" Subject: Re: Free "Live in Berkeley"? Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 19:44:16 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: Free "Live in Berkeley"? Anyone get that free "Live in Berkeley" yet? ------- In my experience you generally have to be patient when it comes to DGM releases, not so much in the shipping phase as in the production phase. But you gotta cut them some slack. The product is usually top-notch and it gets where it's supposed to go. Now on the other hand, we have the Zappa Family Trust. They offer one new release every couple of years and then delay production and shipping for such an extreme period, you may have forgotten you ordered the thing. So "YAY DGM!" and keep up the good work. Looking forward to the corrected "Live in Berkeley" (hint hint), sv ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:50:00 -0600 From: "Michael Cox" Subject: The Language of Birds David Craig quoted someone as saying: > one has to take the trouble to learn a new language in order to > appreciate it. Yes. But just keep in mind the story of Arthur Dent learning the language of birds. Once he had done so he realized that bird talk was really, really boring. To discuss this we must point out the obvious dichotomy in KC music: the half of it that embraces Western musical logic (much of "Beat", etc (yecch)) and the half that challenges it. I am only interested in the latter here. People tend to overcomplicate KC music. Most of it is really not that complicated or inaccessible. For instance, I taught my 14-year-old son RED on the guitar in less than an hour. Virtually any beginning guitarist can play RED easily. Of course this isn't true of all their music, nor is it a put-down; RED is one of my favorites, as it is with most fans. Much of Fripp's "language" most definitely depends on more pedestrian musical forms, if only to defy them. Like an atheist who needs God to swear by, Fripp's music often exists in juxtaposition to the norm and needs it to work off of. A simple example: Who could count the number of times a flattened fifth (the dreaded "tritone" I don't think we're supposed to talk about) appears in KC themes? The tritone would be meaningless without the musical context of a perfect fifth behind it. It sounds "evil" to our ears precisely because it plays off of the norm. Someone without that Western musical context wouldn't "get it" at all. I think Fripp himself realizes this, which explains later shifts even further away from our common musical context. Whether learning this language is worth the trip is a decision for each individual KC fan to make. I confess to a certain cynicism on this point. Sometimes what appears to be nonsense really is nonsense, though. Take for example Keith Tippet's preposterous contribution to "Cat Food", which goes to show that even respected jazz musicians are capable of producing complete bilge. As always, just my Humble Opinion... Michael Cox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:43:07 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Lizard; conjecture; 21st CSB in concert!; Alan's birthday; >I personally would have preferred to have Jon Anderson vocals on the whole album, then there wouldn't be any question that the album isn't really KC, but is some strange progressive amalgam. I think it would have been fascinating to hear JA's vocal takes on all the wonderful songs on Side One of the old LP. Imagine JA singing Cirkus an octave higher than Gordon managed - or Lady of the Dancing Water . . . >Maybe in a way the album highlights for Fripp what he saw as a dead end for King Crimson, having taken the music the farthest extent in a direction that he ultimately didn't want to go (comparing Lizards to Islands seems to make the case for me that he had continued in the direction of Lizard only because that was the direction that the rest of the band was going, but that wasn't what he ultimately wanted). Moreover, it seems like he wanted a unified band, and sought to recruit a certain type of jazz-rock musicianship through the first three records, and was able to make good studio recordings in this manner, but did precious little touring during this time period because this certain type of player didn't want to commit to becoming a member of a rock band playing to rock audiences - Keith Tippett springs to mind here. But this is the sort of conjecture that Fripp himself abhors from his audience. On one hand, it would be great if he could wallow in this sort of thing and straighten us all out about our misguided conjecture; on the other hand, he's such a busy guy and I'm glad he doesn't waste his time doing that sort of thing. >The set: Pictures of a City, Catfood, Let there be Light, In the Court of the Crimson King, Progress, Formentera Lady, If I Was, Ladies of the Road, I Talk to the Wind, Epitaph, 21st Century Schizoid Man. Best performance, IMO: Formentera Lady. Outstanding. Thanks for the review Robert. >After the closing Jack Bruce set (with Vernon Reid, who was hot), I'd love to hear more about Jack's set if you could manage it. Thanks sir. >I envy the good folks of the UK -- you're in for a real treat. I just hope they come stateside, which seems a possibility. Got my fingers crossed. This is truly something to hope for. >In fact, exactly the same impact as hearing Schizoid Man on a sampler album (remember them?) which I was given for my birthday (13th Jan. same as Crimson - how's that for karma?). Alan, this is the same as my little brother's birthday. He was born in 1957. >3. Can anyone please tell me what the Bears sound like. They are God's own pop music band. >Are they more akin to solo Ade stuff or what? I would say Yes to that. >What instruments do they play. Two guitars, one bass guitar, one drummer who doubles on mandolin. All sing, except the bass player. Adrian and Rob Fetters are a near match as far as guitar talent goes - they are both very, very good players. >They're coming to Milwaukee and I need to figure if it's worth spending the money (as I don't have much to throw around). If you don't go, you'll be very sorry later, after you hear Car Caught Fire, their tremendous new album. >Thanks everyone who answers...you're sun- loving ape I am not! >When I download music it kind of makes me feel a little empty because there's a sort of detached quality to it. I think we are all looking for that special radio station that doesn't exist any longer. When I was a kid, it was KMET in Los Angeles and KNAC in Long Beach. I trusted them to do a good job keeping me updated on new releases back in those pre-Internet days, and they did, until about 1971 or so. >While everyone is busy bashing Beat and Lizard, I've got to ask if anyone else finds "Happy Family" as wretched as I do? It might be the least representative Crimson song out there. For me, it casts a pall over the entire album, not withstanding some very enjoyable moments in the Lizard Suite. I absolutely love this song. >Mel and Ian on saxes, flute and keyboards were amazing. Having Ian and Mel in the same band - WOW!! Thanks for leaving us your impressions of the 21st CSB Stephen. >All right, since it's been asked, I'll speak up. KCNN radio has been playing all three (!) parts of Pat & Trey's 'Thunderbird' suite - a total of 40 minutes or so. And I have to say I like it more and more. It's not the kind of thing they'd just release an album of as-is, but it's a nice fascinating groove nonetheless. Why wouldn't they release it as is? I'd buy it, as is. - S. np: Barbara Dennerlein, Straight Ahead scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1022 *********************************