Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1021 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1021 Monday, 2 September 2002 Today's Topics: I want an angry vocal Adrian. Not an elite nothing. Bite or kiss. CD sales/Bob's Basement/Adrian trade up. Dissonance Howlers' Tongues In Aspic III 'the king lives on' Re: Record sales plummet 7% Bruford and Tippett Re: The Night Watch; cover art Cheap and Dirty Fripp Sustain 30th Anniversary versions in jewel cases? Free "Live in Berkeley"? Re' $100.00 Vroom DVD Re: file sharing Krautrock - it's too late to stop now Sustain, gear etc. Re: TLev and Jon Anderson Robert Fripp's Guitar Tone ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 23:34:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Raymond Raupers Subject: I want an angry vocal Adrian. Not an elite nothing. Bite or kiss. Listening to many home-made mood recordings from over a decade: I recall the tightness of direction in delivery of Tull's" A New Day Yesterday "on "Bursting Out". A much younger man then,.. I was stoned on life and song. Then and for years I ate an education with every tube amp procurement. Each step afforded me better hearing. For years I walked a wide stride around Black Sabbath. I feared what I did not understand. I chuckle at how shallow my fears were. I despised posers and hypocrits and still take a wide stride around Harley's, Head Banger's and Preachers today. Individuals are or I walk away. (Raymond Raupers Jr 9/1/02) I was fortunate to be 10 in 1969. I had the cartoon indoctrination of pime time 69/70. The so called moon launch. (Grand-dad bitched all week about the fraud of it all.) I am now sure he was right. But as I revisit this mindset my motivation is to discuss why I am moved to post and what I want for myself. I want Adrian to leave KC. Or to establish and maintain lyrical equality with his instrumentation. Like Cat Stevens, John Lennon, and at moments Adrian himself. Adrian's paltry gift of lyrical content to KC may appease Bob but I suspect his specific reference of "taking from a man with everything" sidestepped Fripp and got some vocal onto the CD with no free lunch. From Discipline to the construction of Light. Wasn't that supposed to mean the disciplined ultimate feat? And doesn't that signify the end? So why is Adrian still saddled? He isn't. Psychobilly Ray "I do feel horny towards my motor cycle but I have no woman to properly scent it. It is a problem I have struggled with for most of 15 months now. And my mouth is dry." Rockabilly Ray 9/1/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 12:02:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Raymond Raupers Subject: CD sales/Bob's Basement/Adrian trade up. I have been reading the current complaints in ET regarding the fall in cd sales. The industry spin is so familiar and blatantly false. It affords them no responsibility for their collusive actions in controlling the availabilty of music and opportunities for artists. It will be necessary for them to be bit good before they are moved to better posture. Much like the relationship of Gov't and taxes. Change is only produced through control of the feeding cycle. There is no intrinsic incentive towards good will. Only fools, parasites and would-be criminals participate to impede change. (Socialists, Lawyers, Politicians). I spent considerable time last night listening to my "mood" recordings. Cd's that I had made at various points over the past decade. It became clear to me that being able to assemble certain songs helped document my perspectives at various points in my life. And gathering them now outlines the general direction of my growth musically and philosophically. I remember how the record industry attempted to extort monies from the blank cassette tape industry in the 80's. Their position was that blank tape was a thieving and contemptable means to strip artists of their income. I recognized their attempts threatened to strip me of my hard earned cash and further reduce my access to music. And I was right. Their argument was I shouldn't be able to share these mood tapes with anyone else because they were losing royalties if anyone heard the music without buying each individual recording. From all this I learned that the music industry was collusive and hypocritical. They sought to control what music was to be played on radio stations and even in my home while entertaing friends. I learned to distrust artists that sought to further these attempts. And when I heard that Garth Brooks attempted to make the sale of used cds illegal, unless he was paid a royalty on each transfer of ownership, I was inflamed! I have boycotted him ever since and even today I wouldn't so much as piss on him if he were lying on the ground dying of thirst. Today I consider the fact that concert tickets are outpacing inflation by leaps and bounds. Directly lining the artist's pockets. As a firm believer in capitalism I am thrilled that artisits can command any price they wish for tickets. I also expect product from them equal to the price and therefore buy very few tickets. I have no "fan" compulsions to render me helpless in the transaction of money. And have no pity for anyone that does. The rise in ticket prices eliminates any argument that artists are performing their craft for any reason nobler than cash. And that is the way it should be. While I listened to all these "mood" recordings I drifted back and forth through my memories. I was struck by the tight direction and delivery of Tull's" A New Day Yesterday " from "Bursting Out". A much younger man then,... I was stoned on life and song. Then and for years I enjoyed new education with every tube amp procurement. Each step afforded me better hearing. And during those years I walked a wide stride around Black Sabbath. I feared what I did not understand. Now I chuckle at how shallow my fears were. I despised posers and hypocrits and still take a wide stride around Harley's, Head Banger's and Preachers today. Individuals are, or I walk away. (Raymond Raupers Jr 9/1/02) I remember how moved I was to hear Adrian Belew's Lone Rhino album, Discipline and Beat. Tonight in listening to Prozac Blues I moved ever closer to my wish for Adrian to leave KC. It seems clear that many ETrs want to share little with Adrian. They see him as an obstruction to their debasing worship of Bob. Perhaps there is a basement? There seems to be great opposition to the attempts of Adrian, to establish and maintain lyrical equality with instrumentation. Whereas I want him to take it to personal levels achieved by the likes of John Lennon and Cat Stevens. I suspect Adrian's specific reference of "taking from a man with everything" alluded to the sharing of the then out of print "USA" recording. For which Bob stamped his feet so much like a spoiled child. Today I can't imagine anyone that enjoyed the trades will not buy the new release and I firmly believed it then. Conversely the "lights please" portion on "Heavy Construction" is so childish an indulgence on Bob's part that it is embarrasing. In some neurotic way it seems Bob feels a photo strips him of something. But what? Control? From Discipline to the Construction of Light, doesn't the title sequence suggest accomplishment of the ultimate feat? Doesn't that signify the end? Perhaps it is the complacency of age that affords Adrian to stay with KC. But "I" wish he would trade up. Thanks for all the hardwork put into ET. Why not sell subscriptions? I'll pay. Later, Psychobilly Ray ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 12:04:58 +1000 (EST) From: Will Dayble Subject: Dissonance Concerning the post about DEP/Nevermore/Sprial Architect etc. Well just a few ETs ago I mentioned a band called 'Meshuggah'. I failed to mention that as far as 'dissonance' goes these guys are FAR ahead of the pack. I'd have to say I'm really yet to hear any guitarwork more complex and off-whack than the Thordendal solos (check out the tappy one in the middle of 'Perpetual Black Second' from the album 'Nothing'). I still maintain that they choose to hit every single note you DON'T expect them to, and keep doing it for as long as inhumanly possible.. > Dillinger Escape Plan (especially the new one with Mike Patton on vocals--which is a big improvement on previous vocal outings) Yeah? I actually really liked the old singer, they had a real good visceral chunk going. I'm yet to get hold of the new DEP with Patten in the mix... Where did you get it? (I'm in Australia and it's hard to get DEP down here) But back to Meshuggah. The lead guitarist (Thordendal) from the Mesh has his own side project called 'Sol Niger Within', of which I've only heard some small samples, but it sounds positively insane, and well worth looking at. I'm pretty sure you can download some samples from www.meshuggah.net, I can't quite remember. And yes! Spiral Architect are just guh-reat! I'm yet to hear of Voivod though... What's their kinda funk? In the same vein as DEP is a hawcaw band called Converge which are a bit of fun. A bit less 'intelligent' than Dillinger, but still okay for the heavyness/clashing notesness... - Will. (You can also check out my own experiments at www.innocentcabbage.com/twit if you feel like it) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 23:27:56 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Breis" Subject: Howlers' Tongues In Aspic III In regards to Ryan Tassone's remark about how an instrumental version of 'The Howler' could have been considered as 'LTIAspic III', check out bootlegs from early '82 ("Indisciple Mining Rocks" for example), and there you have it. Nonsung 'Howler'. Dig it or die. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 01:56:21 -0400 From: "Mark A Stansbery" Subject: 'the king lives on' In response to Dave, who essentially maintains that KC has been dead since before the 80's band came into existence: I disagree. Have you been to a live performance by the current line-up? I saw KC back in '73 and have seen the current incarnation on four occasions. In the 'review' I posted to ET after seeing KC in Cleveland back in 2000, I remember stating something to the effect that that this group had earned the title of "King Crimson". I don't back off from that a bit. Sure, it's not 1969 and I'm not hearing them for the first time. And the times are different. That experience is a memory. But, the band still catches my attention and keeps it because they are unique and uniquely creative, as they were then. The king lives on... (says I, at least) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 09:15:13 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: Record sales plummet 7% Regarding all these posts about the major labels whining so much about declining sales, does anyone besides me feel that they're trying to place the blame everywhere but where it belongs? It seems they're trying to throw their mud everywhere in a desparate attempt to find a scapegoat. But they refuse to even consider that they've been putting out CRAP for so long that people are finally getting BORED WITH IT!!! So there you have it. Between the deregulated and corporatized radio stations filling the airwaves with pap and the major labels cranking it out, the public is simply getting bored with it and is choosing to spend it's entertainment dollars elsewhere. Thanks god for the indi labels who credit us with some intelligence and a little good taste! Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 08:49:30 -0700 From: "Moshier, John T" Subject: Bruford and Tippett Hello lovers of creative and unusual music, I have a developing and woefully underexposed interest in post 50's improvisational jazz. I'd like to give Bill Bruford's Earthworks and something by Keith Tippett a listen. Any thoughts on a good place to start? I'm looking for the most accessible work of each artist, not necessarily the "best" but something that is likely to "hook" me and lead to further explorations which colud ultimately lead to finding the "best." For example, Discipline, Beat and Itcotck are perhaps the most accessible King Crimson albums, but few are putting these discs at the very top of their lists of the very best. A newby listening first to SABB, Red or Thrak might not "get" the full-on Crimson experience, perhaps finding these works too far removed from their personal experiences. In my own case, in 1973, a friend played me Itcotck, which I quickly bought, and I followed up with the newest release, SABB. What a shock as a follow up! If I'd started with SABB, I might never have become a lifelong KC enthusiast. Thanks for your thoughts. John Moshier. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 12:31:04 -0400 From: Miguel Farah Subject: Re: The Night Watch; cover art > >Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:54:37 -0400 >From: David Vella >Subject: The Night Watch; cover art > >[...] >2) I for one think this would have been a MUCH better (and more >appropriate) painting to use as cover art for the King Crimson CD entitled >'The Night Watch' than the one they actually used by artist PJ Crook. I concur. >Which raises an interesting (perhaps) topic for discussion: the cover art >of their albums. I know it has been discussed in the past, but it has been >a while. Maybe some new viewpoints can emerge? > >Some questions to get us started: > >Q1. Which albums, if any, do you think are enhanced by the artwork of PJ >Crook? [My own answers: whereas I think it was a big mistake on the >Nightwatch, I rather liked her work on the cover of 'Heavy ConstruKction'. >[...] In general, I don't really like PJ Crook's paintings - I find them thick and coarse, and I have the impression that she inspires herself on the title alone to do them. That said, I think the Cirkus cover is good enough. Epitaph's good too. >Q2. More generally, which of KC's album cover art did you like and why? >What is you favorite KC album cover? [Some of my own answers: I was perhaps >the least impressed with the 80's covers, and the cover of TCoL. My >favorite covers must include Lizard and In the Wake of Poseidon. I never >really liked the cover of ITCOTKC, although I must say it got my >attention.] I ABSOLUTELY love that cover. As a matter of fact, I have it as the startup screen in my Windows 95 partition on my PC. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:31:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Stack Subject: Cheap and Dirty Fripp Sustain >From ET 1016: > Has anyone out there found an inexpensive way to > accomplish the legendary Fripp sustain/bandsaw > sound. I have a Fernandes Virtigo Elite with > sustainer, and a Crate GFX30 amp. What besides > Fripps elaborate system (ie. Roland VG-8,GR-1,GR- > 30,GP-100, TC Electronics 2290, Eventide 3000,etc) > can accomplish something close? Specifically in the > sustain area. I've been able to closely replicate Fripp's sustained lead playing using a Roland VG-88 and a Fernandes sustainer pickup. While this may not provide the cheapest solution (since the VG-88 is itself a rather expensive unit...), I suspect that Fripp is using only his VG-8 (or an 88 if he's upgraded since I saw his equipment spec...) in conjunction with the sustainer pickup to produce the sound. Still, the VG-88 and its predecessor all model analog guitars and effects. As such, I think you could probably fairly easily replicate something similar to Fripp's sustained tone by putting your sustainer in "normal" mode, setting the "intensity" to the max. Then, run it through a disortion (or maybe better, a fuzz pedal)-- this is the hardest part to figure out, because subtle changes can drastically alter the tone. Then, run through a compression pedal, serious saturate the sound with compression. I'd say rig the compression to provide maximum sustain, then try fiddling with the distortion or fuzz pedal. Be careful with the sustainer though. This may get a bit technical, but it'll help you understand how the sustainer is working, and may make it easier to control the sound of the guitar. When you pluck a guitar string, it forms a vibration which can be modeled mathematically as a repeating wave (curve up, curve down, curve back up, etc.). With string vibrations, this wave decays over time (the peaks become less and less high), which is why your guitar doesn't sustain every note infinitely without the sustaine. The vibration is decaying over time. What the sustainer does is prevent the vibration curve from decaying, so the curve stays at its max forever (theoretically) and the note's sustain never decays. Now, guitars consist of six strings typically, and similar to a piano, when one string vibrates, there is a chance that other strings will start vibrating as well. This sympathetic vibration creates a sort of overtone when the other strings vibrate that you don't really distinctly hear. So when I fret a certain note on a D string, my A string may start to vibrate. But this vibration is very small and decays over time and goes away pretty quickly, so it never interferes with what you're playing. The problem is that the sustaine won't let that vibration decay over time, so that overtone wills tay in place. Worse still, it can often pick up momentum and actually become louder than the notes you're intendeing to play. As such, you may need to mute other strings when using the sustainer, or you'll get out of control overtones. Good luck with everything though! mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:29:42 -0500 From: "Chris Costello" Subject: 30th Anniversary versions in jewel cases? Which of the 30th Anniversay series have made it past the cardboard packaging to regular jewel cases? Call me crazy, but I prefer plastic to cardboard. However, a local record store is going out of business, and they've got TOAPP and Red in the gatefold packaging, so if those aren't forthcoming in a regular version, I may take advantage of the closeout deal. They had a jewel cased version of Discipline, so I got that one. Later, COZ -- Chris 'Coz' Costello NotAbbott.com is now operational! Visit! "Hipness is transient. You've got to change in order to be continually hip." -- Vinnie Colaiuta ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 19:44:16 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: Free "Live in Berkeley"? Anyone get that free "Live in Berkeley" yet? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 21:00:52 +0000 From: "Dale cleary" Subject: Re' $100.00 Vroom DVD I mentioned in a previous post the high cost of getting this DVD. I should explain that I live in Australia and quite frankly, there's not much choice in the matter. I have since seen this DVD for $70.00 in Sydney. To try and buy the CD by Bruford and Levin is extremely difficult and the last and best price I found was $85.00 and that was going to take 3 to 6 months to arrive! Unfortunately we are rather starved of CD's and DVD's in this country. There's only one decent jazz shop here and they've never heard of Earthworks. I do not like buying through the mail as I have lost many things this way. This of course limits me somewhat but it's better than throwing the cash away. I want to add that I think these album comparrisons are very silly. I don't think it's possible to compare a 1969 release with that of a 1982 or later. Music isn't competition, it's communication. I love all the albums with the exception of Islands and Earthbound. My favourite is Discipline but that is because I love the songs. Love and respect to all KC fans out there, Dale. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:28:38 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: file sharing >I guess my point is that, although for other people, downloading free mp3s >may have reduced the amount of music they buy, in my case, it absolutely has >not. >Has anyone else here bought much music they discovered through downloads, >but wanted the best available sound quality? oh my god yes. I think the ocean of new music the internet has exposed me to is such a wonderful thing, it has been very important in my growing collection. When I first got napster I must have had 1/3rd of the CDs I have now. Maybe less. A lot of the CDs I have now are because of music I got a chance to hear for free online. I don't know where I'd be without it. I've gotten very impatient with the file sharing programs lately.. since the downfall of napster I've been less interested in spending nights downloading tons of music and wasting so much time making sure its the right track length, the right title, etc etc. But for instance, I got my first taste of Dream Theater the other night because I downloaded a few songs. I don't know anyone who likes them, and I wouldn't have gone out and just bought a CD based on reviews. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 00:13:01 -0700 From: "PT" Subject: Krautrock - it's too late to stop now However, Peter Schaut still seems to be thinking there's something pejorative or derogative with the term. He recommends to use terms such as 'German Rock' or 'Deutsch Rock' instead. +++ while some of the original German bands didn't like this term, it wasn't because of any derogatory reasons - they could care less about being called "Krauts", they just didn't like being lumped together as one giant "scene" or "sound". Faust called one of their 1970's songs Krautrock - and having recently performed and recorded with Faust, I can say, they could care less about this term, it doesn't hurt their feelings nor any of the other dozens of Krautrock bands I've come across. Perhaps something like Nazirock would be considered not "PC" of course, but the word Kraut ? come on, lighten up, eat some sourkraut, and rock out to some of the most interesting music recorded east of KC. the term Krautrock is here to stay. it's too late to stop now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 04:26:48 -0400 From: Gordon Rice Subject: Sustain, gear etc. Hey all-- Ryan Tassone gets most of it mostly right, but I'm able to clarify a couple of things regarding the '69-'74 guitar sound: RF's Les Paul during that period was a 1957 triple-pickup Custom--they're typically even heavier than the usual Les Pauls of the period. Although he's said the brand of fuzztone doesn't matter, I believe that he was using an Electro-Harmonix Big Muff Pi at the time; the current reissue from Sovtek gets the sound quite nicely and holds up a lot better onstage than the originals. It might also be worth trying an MXR Distortion +--that was the other dominant pedal of the period and I still regret selling the one I owned back in 1977 when I foolishly believed I was giving up electric guitar. The Hiwatt is also important--they really were a different flavor of British amplifier. As far as chaining the channels together, it's really simple: Plug into one of the "normal" channel inputs (there are two inputs for each channel on Hiwatts of the period), then take a second cord and connect it between the other "normal" input and one of the "brill(iant)" inputs. Now both the "normal" and "brill" volume controls contribute to the sound; the fact that both preamp tubes are functioning also gives you a bit more drive going into the power amp--a fairly frightening concept considering the gain structure inside those beasts . . .. Oh--this trick also works on two-channel Fenders, Marshalls and anything else with multiple inputs to the same channel (those multiple inputs are nearly always parallel). For the person who was wondering about cheap & dirty sustain tricks: Although either fuzztone I mentioned will help immensely; you really should consider investing in a good tube amp--RF himself once said that solid-state amps (and, in particular, the JC-120 he was using at the time) were "appalling for fuzz sustain as I use it," and I happen to think he's right--tubes rule the field to this day. British and British-derived amps that use either EL34 or EL84 power tubes work a little better in my opinion--those bottles break up and compress quite gracefully and really never go into hard clipping, unlike the 6L6 and 6550 tubes commonly used in American amps (which can be driven into a rather nasty, tizzy clipping that doesn't sound musical to me at all). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 09:35:15 0 (GMT) From: "Tony Burton" Subject: Re: TLev and Jon Anderson > Now KC content question? (sort of) In the Frame By Frame box set there is a > family tree included. I look a the 10th incarnation of KC at the bottom > center and follow Tony's line which goes back up to the top and appears to > join Jon Anderson. Can anyone clue me in as to what that represents? Tony Levin played bass on the Anderson-Bruford-Wakeman-Howe recording and subsequent tour, and also contributed bass to the follow-up Union album. Tony and visit www.handbag.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 06:03:39 EDT From: IanSharwood at aol dot com Subject: Robert Fripp's Guitar Tone For many years I tried various combinations in order to achieve the degree of sustain that Robert used variously from the solo on Schizoid man (In the Court) to the end of the 1972 -1974 band. This is what I have used since about 1989. (1) Aria Pro11 Les Paul style guitar, front pickup usually, volume on full, tone between half and Zero. You can also use the back pickup for a searing tone with almost as much sustain. (2) Marshall Guv'nor, full gain, three quarters bass, quarter middle, quarter treble, quarter level. (3) Boss CS2 Compressor, level two thirds, attack two thirds, sustain just over half. (4) Jim Dunlop Cry Baby (occasionally for phase tonal variation, not used conventionally). I think any decent distortion, compressor and LP type guitar should do the job (Robert used a 1959 Gibson LP Custom); I suspect he used a Fuzz Face distortion originally because at the time nothing else much was around. It is important to put the Compressor before the distortion and the Wa before the compressor. Any decent amp will do but I tend to use the clean channel as the effects rig provides the tonal tailoring, you simply need to adjust the amp tone controls to suit your ear. I have used various set-ups over the last 32 years including some quite esoteric digital stuff, but like many of my guitarist friends have come back to a basic analogue set up. (With the exception of a digital echo, I absolutely detest the old analogue ones!) Hope that helps. Ian. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1021 *********************************