Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1020 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1020 Sunday, 1 September 2002 Today's Topics: File Sharing & KC Re: Album art/lp censorship/ect Too strange........ Re: mtv/red Re: the 30th Ann. editions ssSSSusstaiNNn Not Ranking Re: Cheap & Dirty Fripp Sustain Re: Krautrock File sharing and a bit of personal KC history; E-bow and Fripp Re: Record Sales Plummet... File sharing and T. Levin TCOL e-bows Moonchild/stone Re: Lizard & Beat Sleepless bassline My analysis of Robert Fripp's guitar sounds. ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:55:30 +0000 From: "Dave Allen" Subject: File Sharing & KC I discovered all post-ITCOTCK King Crimson material EXCLUSIVELY through Napster a couple of years ago. I now own approx. 30 KC CDs (counting the individual CDs in the "Great Deceiver" and "ProjeKcts" sets) It all started 4 or 5 years ago when a friend of mine put on this record he borrowed from his girlfriend's father's vinyl collection. It was ITCOTCK. I wasn't impressed. A couple years later, I read about this same album with the unforgettable cover in Guitar World's June 1999 issue ("The Greatest Year In Rock - 1969"). This prompted me to go pick up a used vinyl copy of the album for a couple bucks. Listening to it, I made it to "Moonchild" (before the improv, thank God!) and decided to return it and buy the CD because: a) the "popcorn" drum sound b) if I ever smoked pot again, I wanted THIS album to be around in whatever form provided the best possible sound quality (to me "I Talk To The Wind" still says, "It's the 60s, I'm high, and I'm going to go sit in a field and write a song with flutes in it"). Luckily, this was just when the 30th anniversary addition came out and I picked it up that day. Now, ITCOTCK still isn't a favorite album of mine, KC or otherwise. To me, it's a bit like a really good, old hollywood epic. A bit kitschy, a bit dated, but "they don't make 'em like that anymore!". It's also like a movie in that, no matter how good it is, it's not often I want to listen to it. You know? Like I want to save it, stay away from it for a while, then listen to it with headphones from beginning to end on a rainy day or something. No offence to any of you that really love this album, but to me, other than "Schizoid Man" and the improv, it's just songs - heavily orchestrated (I know it's a mellotron), slightly over-dramatic songs. In this music, I don't hear the "classical" artistic ambition, or the ROCK that this album is supposedly a synthesis of. Anyway, after I bought this CD, I read up on the band and discovered that after releasing a disappointing clone of ITCOTCK, they lost the plot for a couple of albums, then transformed into a totally different band, never to return to the style of the first album. As far as I was concerned, it was a great, one-of-a-kind album with no follow up. Wham, Bam, thank you King Crimson. That would have been the end of it (at least for a long time), and I wouldn't be writing this post if I hadn't, at the time, recently installed Napster. To make a long story a little less long, I worked my way up chronologically. "Sailor's Tale" roused my interest. The Wetton/Bruford line-up blew my fucking head off... My experience is that mp3s, converted to wave files and burned onto CD, are never as good, sound-wise, as the original CD. I thought there was no way the ProjeKct X CD could sound better than my downloaded version, but bought it anyway because I couldn't recreate the segues PERFECTLY! To my surprise, the sound quality WAS better (what a great CD!) - and those were good mp3s, no slush or high-frequency distortion. So anyway, in the three years since that first used vinyl ITCOTCK, I've bought all the KC studio albums except "Lizard", "Beat", and "3 of a PP"; the "Great Deceiver" and "ProjeKcts" boxes; a KCCC subscription (anyone get that free "Live at Berkeley" yet?); "Absent Lovers", "Deja VROOOM", "Thrakattack", "Heaven and Earth", "ExtraKcts & ArtifaKcts", "Heavy ConstruKction", "Level 5" (CD and concert) and the Sid Smith book, all as a direct result of free file sharing. I've had similar experiences (though far less obsessive) with Soft Machine, Hatfield and the North, Henry Cow, and Frank Zappa (FAR less obsessive in the case of FZ!) I guess my point is that, although for other people, downloading free mp3s may have reduced the amount of music they buy, in my case, it absolutely has not. Has anyone else here bought much music they discovered through downloads, but wanted the best available sound quality? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:55:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve munari Subject: Re: Album art/lp censorship/ect Hello All! 1st off, i'm way behind in reading my e-mail, & thus have yet to read ET #1015 to the latest that came in today, so forgive me IF any of this is old. To Peter S. in ET #1013, I find myself in agreement that the term(no matter how long it's been in use, no matter who coined the word)that "Krautrock" is offensive. Just as I find that in today's world no matter how innocent the word or sentence may be; nearly anything said when refering to African-Americans is "taken" by many as a racist remark, wheras just about anything can be said(even done in US commercials)about Anglos, & you don't hear any complaints by the ACLU nor anyone else. I'm 50 & have been listening to "progressive" music forever & have never used the term "Krautrock", but have always just refered to whatever band as: that band from Germany, or where ever. Maybe this is a non issue? But? Also to Peter, as you now live in Australia, and have mentioned the venue "OZ", were you able to catch the performance of what today is my favorite progressive, heavy, but totally acessible, highly musicial while also using complex time signatures, quartet, Planet X?? For your sake I hope you did because at that performance they recorded the awe inspiring cd, "Live From Oz" which was mixed by drum-god Simon Phillips. Planet X's cd's find their way onto my dvd/cd player more than anyone else's. Planet X is Derek Sherinian on keyboards(songwriter)ex Dream Theatre member, whom i'm so glad moved on to create Planet X with whom I consider to be the finest drummer today(Simon Phillps agrees as do others)in Virgil Donati who also shares in the great songwriting. The guitar position is occupied by a guy whom has been tearing it up for awhile now, Tony MacAlphine, and Planet X uses different bassists for touring/recording. The cd includes the already established crowd pleasing tunes(D! ogboots-Warfinger-Atlantis)as well as enuff newer material. Each guy gets a solo, but they kept them at times that the attention deficit music lovers can handle as Tony's solo is the longest at 4:14. I can feel the flames already, but Derek's leaving of DT was perfect as he's created the perfect quartet of vituosos playing today, and I never cared for Dream Theatre, altho I like Petrucci especially on Liquid Tension Experiment cd's & while I can't stand long periods of James LaBrie's vocals, I do like his use on the 1st Explorer's Club cd. Anyway Planet X is doing what other progressive units(entirely instrumental btw)should be trying; breaking new ground. They have defintely been my favorite quartet since 2000. To weigh in on the album art thread. I feel that ITCOTCK is with out a doubt the finest debut album art ever produced! I specifically refer to vinyl, as the 12 inch by 12 inch size of albums & fine artwork covers was more important imo for selling albums than a cd cover is, as the sheer size can just grab you & force you to buy w/o even knowing how good or bad the music awaiting you inside is! Also, i've seen MANY people buy a second copy of an album(I've seen more KC than other artists)just to use the cover and often have it framed as a painting would be, then hung on their walls. I know if the 1st recording I was on; was something as enticing as the ITCOTCK album artwork was, we may have sold 200,000 copies! A better debut album cover...I've yet to see it. I wonder how many out there purchased an album because of the artwork w/o knowing the music contained within? Continuing w/the album art thread but, taking it to the CENSORSHIP level, I wonder...Back in 1969 I walked to my local Mom & Pop music store(they literally don't exsist anymore, as a Mom & Pop store for those of you that don't know, is a store run by 1 or 2 people, often a husband & wife, & a MUSIC Mom & Pop store surely no longer exsists because they can't compete w/the larger corporate owned chains)So in 69 I walk in & while going through the albums, I come across the original cover of Blind Faiths only lp., the 1 w/the naked young girl on the cover. I had of course already heard about the formation of this supergroup, & loved the cover, so I bought it. Only 2 days later I went to the same store to find EVERY one of the original Blind Faith covers gone & replaced by the same music vinyl BUT the cover had been changed to a quickly done, unimpressive photo of the band! I asked the gentleman who owned the store "what happened?" & was told that the day after I was 1st in, a policeman along w/a record distributor showed up & took every original cover out & put the new ones in it's place! The owner went on to tell me, the policeman told him that the 1st cover had been deemed to be close to being CHILD PORNOGRAPHY by the court, & there for would not be allowed for sale! I was amazed, to say the least, & i'd love to hear of similar stories by any "old geezer's" such as myself. This was another cover where the artwork was SO WELL done I would have purchased the album EVEN had I not known who Blind Faith was. Btw, I also was one of the few who got to see BF perform as they broke up during the 5 month tour! I even still have a hardcover concert book that was equal in it's artwork as the 1st album was. I wonder what value this item may hold? Anyone have a story like mine? To give my impression of KC album covers: 1)In The Court Of The Crimson King(Front as well as back! 2)Lizard(front & back) 3)Islands(I like the European cover as well as the US version, but only care for US version if the cover is opened w/both ends flat. 4)Lark's Tounge In Aspic 5)The Essential King Crimson Thanks, Steven Munari "I can out think you; I can out philosophize you...and i'm gonna' outlast you!" Robert DeNiro as Max Cady in "Cape Fear" as a trembling Nick Nolte is hiding behind a dumpster; as the private detective he hired, hired 3 goons to beat down Cady on Nolte's order, but Cady took the beating & beat down the goons. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:31:37 -0700 From: "James A. Reible" Subject: Too strange........ Wow. My first post, after 6(?) years, is in Elephant Talk #1019. My birthday is October 19, 1953. Cool........ (I couldn't have done that on purpose (or is it porpoise?) if I tried!) But now the paranoia kicks in and I gotta wonder how/why that happened?!? Toby? You don't have my social security number too do you? :-) Someone asked how did EYE get turned on to King Crimson. I was 16, it was Christmas Break 1969 and my buddy was home from college and we were both tripping on acid and listening to Pink Floyd. He grinned this evil acid grin and said "Now dig this." and put on In the Court of the Crimson King. The rest is history. (I have thanked him many times over the last 33 years, most recently a few weeks ago!) ((Same guy turned me on to Genesis via The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway!)) (((I turned him on to Devo and Renaissance!))) Later, -- --- Peace, Shakes --- "Knowledge is a deadly friend if no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools." ---Peter Sinfield---1969--- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:14:38 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: mtv/red >A few days ago I glanced at MTV2 during their news snippet. During the end >was a picture of a VU meter numbered 1 to 8, with 7 and 8 colored red and >the needle just below the 8 line. I saw that too and immediately thought of Red, but then I passed it off as a coincidence. I mean, a symbol representing momentum, speed and power like that , any sort of dial like that could be used in anyway. Music is a very obvious way to use it, it just so happened to grace the KC album. I dont think they ripped it off, however it is a possibility. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 02:14:42 -0400 From: "D Way" Subject: Re: the 30th Ann. editions My take on the most recent remasters (i.e., are they ALL really a noticeable improvement over the so-called "Definitive Editions" released in the late 80's) is simply this: on almost every CD, yes, there is quite a bit of improvement (and, no, you don't need to own an audiophile system to hear it). Going briefly album by album: ITCOTCK - Easily the best example of how the newest remastering is a quantum leap forward in sound quality. Granted, this CD had nowhere to go but up (God, I STILL can remember how dreadful the original (pre-Definitive Edition) remaster sounded! Tied with the original CD release of Deep Purple's "Machine Head", it was the single worst sounding CD that I owned, period. In the band listings, after "Robert Fripp - Guitar", the label should have listed "Tape Recorder - Extreme Hiss". I could go on, but you get the idea.) ITWOP - Not as dramatic an improvement as the one above, but still a pretty noticeable. Lizard - Yes, the sonic improvements are quite a bit better here too, if my memory concerning the Definitive Edition sound doesn't fail me (I think the original question was about the vocals on this CD and on "Islands" - on both, I'd have to say that the vocals are certainly clearer) Islands - See above for review LTIA - Definitely less source tape noise than the Def. Edition, and a bit more dynamic overall as well. (Yes, this could be a stock review for all of the 30th ann. titles.) SABB - same as LTIA Red - this is the first of the 30th ann. editions where I didn't find overly dramatic improvements over the Def. Edition. However, I think that is a testament to how well recorded (relatively speaking) "Red" was, compared with the albums which preceded it. Before I get flamed for this observation, let me say that if you still listen to your CD's on your headphones, you will definitely hear better sound quality; on your stereo, however, it would depend on how good your system is and how loudly you listen to the CD. Discipline - the three 80's albums had less "sonic mess" to clean up than the 60's and 70's releases, but they still sound marvellous in their newest versions ("Discipline" and TOAPP have bonus track(s) too; thus, one could claim that their ownership moves to the "essential" list on that information alone :) Beat - If you didn't like the sound of the older versions of this CD, but still liked the music, you must own the 30th ann. version of this CD. One can definitely pick up the layers of music more easily on this version - much cleaner. TOAPP - MANY bonus tracks on this CD, both remixes/alternate versions and songs that just didn't make the final cut. Good clean sound and almost the complete sessions at the same time. Please forgive the lack of "audiophile-speak" in these reviews - I'll leave that language to someone else's review. :) David omeganalpha at yahoo dot com P.S. In regard to the ITCOTCK album, does anyone know if the original master was ever found? I think I remember reading that part of the reason the original CD pressings were so bad was that they were mastered from a second-generation source tape (which, apparently, was all that existed at the time). First, can anyone confirm that this is true, and, second, was the original master ever found? That would certainly explain the increase in sound quality for the 30th ann. edition. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 00:03:28 -0700 From: Hb Subject: ssSSSusstaiNNn Hello 'gear-heads. Hmm? "Inexpensive Fripp sustain/bandsaw sound"... Most of Fripp's tone stems from (IMHO) having a Les Paul-type guitar, and the fuzz which he employs (MIDI-controlled Sansamp,Digitech GSP-2101 preamp,and a Korg A-2). Also, the GR-300 (RF may have put his to rest) has incredible sustain. To my ears, Fripp's tone has changed from the late '80's through the THRAKked 90's to the present. I prefer his earlier tone quality. I'm sure part of this is the use of the newer guitar synths (GR-30) which I feel are inferior to the older models. I would also bet that those Bag End speakers play in to the tone equation also(towards the sustain, that is). So, "inexpensive" sustain? Perhaps you can find an old Mark II Boogie! but in all seriousness, I've spent over 30 years seeking a tone that is still elusive, but pretty close.. I tend to stay as a analog as possible (Fender 'Black-faced' Twin) I got rid of my GSP-2101; too digital-sounding to these ears (=harsh) The Fernandes sustainer doesn't do it for you? Try the Mesa/Boogie V-Twin preamp! I'm very pleased with it (powered by 2X12AX7's). PS: For those of you who despise 'BEAT'; having seen Waiting Man, Neal & Jack & Me, (Heartbeat), Sartori and Neurotica LIVE, I have to ask: "Why are you on this newsletter?" ..and Two Hands & Requiem are gorgeous pieces, tonally! Peace Man, Dr. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:01:13 +0200 From: "Ignacio Carlos Romeo Puolakka" Subject: Not Ranking Hi everyone! I really think that ranking KC albums it's no use, at least for me. Lizard was a difficult album for me. It took many years to grow on me, but now remains one of the most loved album by the group. The complete "Lizard -suite-" is a real cracker. Starting with the beauty of Anderson's Voice, thru the superb bolero and the violent and very crimsonesque Last Skirmish. Just listen to the mourning guitar line of "Prince Rupert's Lament". I prefer the live renditions of "Cirkus" but "Lady of the Dancing Water" is pure beauty. Probably the best albums had been those that heralded a new era for the band: In the Court of the Crimson King, Lark's Tongues in Aspic, Discipline and VROOOM. Needless to say that Crimson have real cracker albums outside these four (SABB, Red a. o.), but I can't rate them. The ConstruKction of Light was excellent but perhaps a little too selfreferential, but contained true gems and classics. My personal favourites from that particualr album are the title track and "Heaven and Earth". This last one was the logical step after the ProjeKct Experience. I had expected more of this kind of Stuff. The new tracks that we knew from Level Five and the KCCC 19 are very good, but with the exception of "Virtuos Circle", they are again a little too selfreferential. I am waiting the new music that will arrive soon (Crimson Blue is due to be released in october in Japan) and the new full length album. I am very fond of the 1972-1974 era, (I discovered the band listening the Young Persons' Guide to King Crimson double album in 1977), but the first time I saw Crimson live was in 1982, here in Madrid, Spain, suporting Roxy and it blew my mind. So it happens that I love the "old" (seventies) and the "new" (1981 onwards) King Crimson without any kind of problems. Carlos Romeo. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 07:11:10 -0400 From: Randall dot Hammill at hartfordlife dot com Subject: Re: Cheap & Dirty Fripp Sustain Actually, Fripp has never used the E Bow. He has mentioned that he has one, but has never used it live or on any recording. When asked about 'Heroes' Fripp specifically stated that he didn't use an E Bow, although that's what pretty much everybody else has used. He said it was a combination of a loud guitar and very good technique, or something to that effect. As for sustain. I get a similar sustain from my Les Paul one of two ways. Play it very loud, or use a lot of compression. In either case, good left hand finger-work also keeps it going for a long time. Practice a good vibrato that keeps the string ringing. It's easy to do this with a really wide vibrato, with practice you can use less vibrato and keep the string ringing. Although it helps, you actually don't even need the compression or loud guitar, you can do this on an acoustic. Also, a lot of the sound has to do with tone. Since you didn't specify which period of Fripp's work you were referring to, and you are going cheap, I am assuming you are talking about his tone in the '72-'74 period. He used a wah-wah pedal, but instead of using it in a traditional manner, he simply left it in various positions. To go from the warmer, thick sustain to the cutting, burning lead work, just open it up (use more of the treble portion). You can get a screaming tone a lot like that period's work (listen to the Great Deceiver box). Frank Zappa used this technique quite a bit as well. It has a much greater effect on tone than the tone pots on the guitar. Although you can play with the tone pots, as well as using different pickup configurations. The rhythm pickup with the Wah opened fully is something to try as well. Randy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:00:22 +0300 (EEST) From: j laari Subject: Re: Krautrock Greetings and forgive me if this begins to sound repetitive... There's been nice thread concerning the term 'Krautrock'. Among others, Craig, Juergen Haible and Richard Rees-Jones have reminded that the term 'Krautrock' is "accepted term for late '60s/early '70s underground rock from Germany", that the term referred "to a certain strain of prog/psych/acid music coming out of Germany", and that the term was originally derogatory but later "the situation changed, and original music from Germany started to become influential for others". And it has been reminded couple of times that there has been published books and samplers under the name "Krautrock" (I actually had a German double-LP with that name in early seventies). However, Peter Schaut still seems to be thinking there's something pejorative or derogative with the term. He recommends to use terms such as 'German Rock' or 'Deutsch Rock' insteadt. Unfortunately, neither of the terms refer to one central meaning of 'Krautrock' of which Richard Rees-Jones already has reminded us: 'prog/psych/acid'. In other words, 'Kraut' must be understood in the 1960s-1970s sense of "psychedelic culture", meaning quite simply 'herb' or 'plant' (ie. referring to cannabis sativa). Please correct me if I'm totally wrong. At least, that's the sense 'Krautrock' was sold here in Finland in the early seventies, as a vague German translation for 'acid rock'. (I'm not sure what this has to do on ET because Crimso wasn't even at that time considered being part of any psychedelia.) However, I think the questionable term with 'Krautrock' is rock... How Tangerine Dream rocks? What about the beat of Klaus Schulze's electronic music? Sincerely, Jukka L ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:05:49 +0300 From: Eino Keskitalo Subject: File sharing and a bit of personal KC history; E-bow and Fripp Thoughts on file sharing: until Audiogalaxy was forced to disable the unauthorized sharing, it certainly was the way I checked the new and intersting artists and music I was not familiar with. I had obtained a Definite Edition copy of In The Court, since the general consensus I was picking up from the sources I was accessing was that it was a brilliant album, but most of the people didn't seem to care for Crimson past that. Coincidentally, the album did not do that much for me then (although a friend who heard it said "this sounds like you, musically"). Thankfully I was listening when a nighttime prog-special on radio played Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part Two half a year later. I dug for some MP3:s, most were blocked but sufficient sampler of most KC incarnations were available. Along the way I borrowed a copy of DE Larks' from the library. KC started climbing in my charts, so to speak. So I'd say file sharing broadened my bleak view on Crimson. I dug into my IRC logs and apparently "the fall of Audiogalaxy" did not coincide with me finally buying another Crimson album this summer, Discipline - I couldn't resist the titles Discipline/Indiscipline and the way they sounded with each other. Then for something completely different: > From: "keir needham" > Subject: Re: Cheap & Dirty Fripp Sustain > > In reply to wviland in ET #1016 on sustain, I have an E-bow, given to me as > a present but I think they go for about AU$200 (not cheap, but boy is it > dirty!). This is essentially a battery powered electro magnetic field which > when applied to the string causes it to vibrate indefinately. I know fripp > has used one on occasion and I find it to be the most awesome device for > creating long sustain. My bet is you're thinking of "Heroes"; Fripp himself has this to say: "I have never used an e-bow professionally, and almost never otherwise. Chris Stein (of Blondie) gave me one c.1978 when we were chums in NYC. But "Heroes" was simply a Les Paul, Marshall cabinet and a way of working. " Indeed it's a quote from the FAQ: http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq/faq5.htm#q137 --Eino ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:54:04 -0500 From: "Stick Man" Subject: Re: Record Sales Plummet... Hello SRH, I agree that hearing music online can positively influence the sale of music, but there is no question about this topic in my mind. The only entity who can decide to freely distribute music or any other kind of intellectual property is the one who owns the rights. This is frequently the creator(s) of the work but it could also be another organization that paid for the work to be created or purchased the rights later. Even if one disagrees with the ethics of the music business, the people who run publishing houses, etc. nobody is entitled to take another's property - even if he isn't making money off of it, it is for "a good cause" etc. What gives him the right? If the *owner* feels it's in his interest to give away samples as a form of advertising that is his choice. This property is a portion of the owner's livelihood and no matter how one tries to rationalize it away, any other distribution of that property is tantamount to theft. Stickman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:14:18 -0400 From: "Mark" Subject: File sharing and T. Levin Satan's Right Hand wrote "I am sure that many of us are involved in file sharing, but I wonder how many of us can really say that we don't buy albums after hearing the files online. I mean, personally, I feel that as long people aren't making money off of file-swapping I'm all for it especially with live recordings(since it opens MY ears to many new artists I wouldn't have heard of)but regardless, hearing music makes me want to hold that album in my hands. " Unless you and your friends wrote the software or music files you are swapping it's theft. I don't do it, but if there was something I just had to have, and could get that way, I sure as hell wouldn't use a euphemism to desribe my aquisition to freinds. Such is the work of spin doctors(formerly called liars). IMHO anyway. And yes I would agree that the tangibility of a musical recording sleeve/booklet etc. Is a great part of the fun. Pouring over all the details while listening, liner notes and so forth. Now KC content question? (sort of) In the Frame By Frame box set there is a family tree included. I look a the 10th incarnation of KC at the bottom center and follow Tony's line which goes back up to the top and appears to join Jon Anderson. Can anyone clue me in as to what that represents? A guy once told me that he had seen Tony playing a blazing lead guitar for Diana Ross on a TV special. I thought it was unlikely but he vigorously persisted it was he. Anyone heard this one. I have perused some of the Tony sites and found nothing yet. What was his previous musical service? Thanks and Happy Crimming. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "J.R. Gattiker" Subject: TCOL >I wonder if anyone would care to share some candid evaluations >of The ConstruKction of Light: I've been trying to get myself >to like it for, well, a while now I'm drawn to answer because of this other post: > The big difference is the absence of swing/the blues. Fripp's > uniqueness as a guitarist stems largely from his refusal to rely on > blues-based cliche, instead developing his own individual vocabulary. ... plus, as observed somewhere else, intolerant to stagnation. I think that's the reason I love TCOL, it really offers a lot of new things. But it did have to grow on me; my first impressions were also that the sound was sort of 'dull', and I heard a rehashed Thrak. But after listening to it more, I think now that, although "paired" with Thrak (as observed elsewhere), TCOL is much more sophisticated. Prozak *blues* (see above :) is OK, I guess it's campy (mocking?) at several levels. To me, the gem is the TCOL title tracks. The instrumental intro is just a great example of that style of driving KC, but unusually smooth and reserved. The lyrics just really grab me, and I'm not a lyrics person. The tension of qualities, the insignificance, and at the same time "a construction of light" - wow. The music itself takes me back to Disc./Beat/Three, and is well executed to balance and support the vocals. TCOL gave me a 'foot in the door' to the rest of the album. 'frying pan' has greatly grown on me, the way the vocal effect works with the music is really different and fascinating, and not just the gross effect it seemed on first listen. I'm almost addicted to this effect, and although I don't think it's the best song on the album, I love listening to it when it comes up. fraktured is a exhibition that I have trouble listening to without making overt gestures of disbelief. I don't get anything out of 'oyster soup' besides tired. LTIA4 stands up to any KC 'jam', and I just love listening to the ins and outs of the style and playing. "I Have a Dream.", well. Is this a new blues? While I was getting into TCOL, I was reading Trey's on-line journal about it. I think that really helped make it come alive for me, and I'm not sure I would have liked the album as much had I not started really noticing his playing. I think TCOL is a difficult album to appreciate without a lot of listens. It's [deliberately] noisy and complex, I think it's very tiring, and it took me a long time to pay attention all the way to the end. But well worth the effort. jim~bo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:42:51 +0000 From: "Dale Hoyt" Subject: e-bows Dear ETers, Rarely can I comment on technical questions but having an e-bow I can concur that yes Fripp has used an e-bow most notably on his exquisite guitar part on Bowie's "Heros". Belew has used the e-bow too I think on Disipline-specifically those guitar parts with an inverted envelope-you can make notes that sound like your using a volume pedal with an ebow. There wonderful devices and getting fancier everyday...but this isn't Guitar Player chat room so I'll shut up. Dale Hoyt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 01:02:06 +0100 From: Paul Timms Subject: Moonchild/stone I heard a song on the radio the other day, and it was clearly based on the first section of Moonchild, however the lyrics had been changed and the word Moonchild was replaced by Moonstone. Does anyone have any idea who sung this? I've just finished reading Sid Smith's book on King Crimson, and found it to be a very enjoyable read. I feel like I know KC much better now than I did before. For someone who has all the albums but doesn't know how one leads to the next, it really helps to put the pieces of the jigsaw into place. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:26:58 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: Lizard & Beat > And so it is with 'Beat'. It's as if a group of competent but > unimaginative session players had been set the task of creating an > album in the style of 'Discipline' as a sort of academic excersise. Did they release a different record with the same cover on your side of the pond? This kind of a read on "Beat" I find just plain mystifying. Vive la difference, I guess... David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:44:39 -0400 From: "Mark" Subject: Sleepless bassline Tad wrote: "He suggested that the bass did have a delay on it but only on one string, which makes it rather difficult to reproduce. Anybody else have any thoughts on this?" I've been struggling to mimic that bassline with my own gear, since I first heard it. And I have made 0% progress. Like Hendrix, perhaps some of these mysteries will never be known. ;~} . That is a kind of feasible suggestion though with the one string being delayed. But I wonder which one? The low one sounds doubled, but so does the high snappy one, to my ears. And doubling bass can get real murky, fast. Another thought is that my ear fools me into thinking Bill's kick drums are part of the bass sound. Imagine if one had access to copies of the master tapes and could fiddle around with the mix at home, just for giggles. Or a Cyberstudio on the net. Hmm? Good question. Cheers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:00:41 -0400 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: My analysis of Robert Fripp's guitar sounds. First of all, I just quickly want to apologize about including that bit about Bruford's cymbal sound in my last post...I hadn't read ET for a day or so, and I was unaware that this thread had been covered (and quite well, I might add) to death. Sorry! Now, as to Robert Fripp's buzzsaw sustain sound, you have several things that contribute to it. Fact: Robert Fripp has NEVER used an E-bow, EVER. I'm sure many people thought he was using one on David Bowie's "Heroes," but he wasn't...he recieved an E-bow as a birthday gift, but never used it. I know this is printed somewhere, perhaps in the Tamm book. But here is my hopefully comprehensive outline of Robert's guitar sound: i. 1969-1974 lead guitar sound -instrument of choice: Gibson Les Paul Custom. This is a relatively heavy (10+ lbs.) guitar with two humbucking pickups. Robert used the pickup closer to the neck for his lead sound. It sounds like the tone knob for that pickup is rolled almost to zero, resulting in a very smooth, violin-like timbre. -there are many interviews on this website as to his effects usage, but he himself has claimed that all fuzz pedals are alike, so any brand will do. -he played through a Hiwatt amplifier. There is also information in the aforementioned 1974 interview regarding his practice of routing the guitar signal through both the high- and low- impedance channels of the amp, somehow. ii. 80's lead sound; guitar synthesizer -instrument of choice: Roland GR-300 guitar synthesizer controller. A lighter instrument than the Les Paul, but it also had two humbuckers. However, with the exception of "Indiscipline," "Requiem" and "Nuages (That Which Passes, Passes Like Clouds)," Robert used only the synthesizer sound for soloing. He never used the humbucker pickups for soloing on any of the VHS/DVD concerts, nor the Absent Lovers release. -when using the GR-300's synth capability, Robert had several sound types in his vocuabulary: (1) the "Turkish trumpet" monophonic sound, heard on "Sartori in Tangier," "The Sheltering Sky," and David Sylvian's "Upon This Earth" (a pitch-shifting effect was used to raise the register of his playing a full octave); (2) a muted version of above, perhaps the same sound with less treble, heard in solos on "Heartbeat," "Two Hands," and the Live in Frejus version of "Neal and Jack and Me"; (3) distorted synth sound. Sometimes difficult to discern individual notes when played rapidly, which is why the solos at the end of "Thela Hun Ginjeet" and "Lark's Tongues in Aspic, Part Three" are not as rapid as others; (4) a harmonized synth sound that could be any of the above, but with an added perfect fifth interval...used in the middle section of "The Sheltering Sky," (duet-ing with Adrian) "Thela Hun Ginjeet," (also duet-ing with Adrian) and "Industry" (guess what...duet-ing with Adrian)! . -Robert, like Adrian, played through a Roland JC-120 amplifier, which had a distortion channel that he never used, favoring instead his fuzz pedal and newly-added Electro-Harmonix Small Stone phaser pedal, and a VCS3 filtering device he sometimes used to create what Brian Eno called a "skysaw" guitar sound, heard on David Sylvian's "Riverman." iii. 90's to present lead guitar sound -instrument of choice: Tokai, Fernandes, and 48th Street custom-built Les Paul copies, with MIDI pickups installed internally and "sustainer" humbuckers included. These pickups, as suggested, sustain a picked note indefinitely. When used without distortion, such a pickup will usually make a distorted sound anyway, because the output volume is significantly higher. Therefore, when used WITH distortion, the result is an extremely resonant and sensitive tone. -Robert Fripp's rig consists of many effects simply used as embellishments (delay, reverb, swirling chorus) to his original sound, which I believe was initially created by a Korg A3 processor. The Eventide units do not produce distortion/overdrive effects, and the VG-8 is used to imitate a single-coil clean tone, heard often on the album THRAK ("Inner Garden" is a perfect example). He has also used a T.C. Electronics G-Force processor for effects, but it is my opinion that the source of his ever-elusive 90's sustain sound is the rare Roland GP-100 preamp. It has a unique sound that breaks up at high volumes in much the same way as can be heard on the song "THRAK" itself, as well as the song "Level Five." They are slightly difficult to obtain, but a GP-100 is not expensive these days. -other effects used commonly for solos in this era are: (1) distorted piano sound, generated by the MIDI guitar synthesizer Roland GR-30. This sound is heard in the opening of "Thrakkattak, Part 1," among other places; (2) a bridge-pickup lead guitar sound put through a slight phasing effect and raised an octave in pitch via a DigiTech Whammy pedal. Every time Robert plays a solo on the album Damage, this is the sound he uses, albiet with occasional swapping of effects; (3) a fretless bass sound blended with a slap bass sound, via the GR-30, which can be heard on much of the ProjeKcts: (4) a Jimi Hendrix-esque reverse delay, heard in almost every solo on Heavy ConstruKction; (5) finally, in songs like "Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream" and "ccccSeizureccc," Robert uses a sound that combines his regular distorted sustainer sound with an added lower octave, probably from the Eventide processor, which is much more precise and can handle chords well. I hope I have killed this thread forever, Ryan ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1020 *********************************