Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1019 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1019 Saturday, 31 August 2002 Today's Topics: Sustain and Music For Study. Belew with Lindsay Lie down 21SB - Canterbury Re: the banjo/the favorites/beat/psychedelics just an observation $100 Deja Vrooom? Making a difference or Warping a young mind? Schizoid Band Re: Record sales plummet 7% Lizard & Beat Beat, Construction Of Light, Lizard Post a listing please KC and dissonance in music Firesign; Beat blow-by-blow peter gabriel's new band Re: 30th Anniversary Editions 80's Crimson SECRETS! sleepless bass line ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:31:31 -0400 From: "Mark" Subject: Sustain and Music For Study. Re: the guitar guy with the sustain issue. Most on-line musical vendors sell the E-Bow device which serves as an interesting sort of simulation of whatever "Bob" does to achieve that type of sound. Dale wrote"regarding Vroom DVD. I must say after spending nearly $100.00 on this I was a bit upset that it doesn't inform the consumer that it's previously released material." Perhaps the title may have been a clue. ? Not trying to be flip, but I understood that to be the case. For all the time I've been buying "Bob's" music there's still a lot of material I plan on getting if DGM decides to hang in there. I have none of the Soundscapes series which I am really interested in. I'm in school and it sounds like perfect "Music For Study" to paraphrase Eno's line. I use Pussyfooting and Evening Star for that currently. I can't study in a vacuum and I can't study distracted. These hit it, all nail, no thumb. I saw "Bob" do somthing like this before a Project 2 concert. He'd slip onstage and add a track every 5 minutes or so until it was a swelling orchestra of probably 8 tracks of sound. I remember thinking he ought to do an album of that sound, and lo and behold, I stumble onto ET this year and find He's got 3-4 of 'em. I eagerly anticipate buying 'Heavy Construction" as well. I'm dying to hear "Tomorrow Never Knows". I read the section here(damn there's a lot of stuff here, please forgive, I'm new) right next to the Vicar bit, and saw a remark from a guy who mentioned that some of "Bobs" remarks about the sacred nature of performance being somewhat akin to a Native American ceremony(No cameras please). That knocked me out. A perfect analogy I thought. Cheers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:24:53 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Belew with Lindsay >But gosh Belew and Lindsay are very >different guitarists. Belew is more of a >guitar whore loving the painted strats as he >does Is that a good thing? >where Arto loves his department store >guitars to almost masocistic degrees. The >one thing they have in common is that both >know every concivable sound that they can >get out of their instraments and love >sharing them. How about a Belew and >Lindsey colaboration? now that would be >great fun if it hasn't already happened. Now you're talking - I'd love to hear this. - S. np: Nothing scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 05:25:58 EDT From: NajiBaji at aol dot com Subject: Lie down OK Tobe, maybe a little lie down is in order-just that I'm frazzled by the lists. Comparisons that don't compare and maintain that KC swansonged after Red. Discipline should have been nurtured with gusto (as a group). resurrecting the KC moniker confused the heck out of everyone. There would have been no confusion with a seventies act for sure. Let's face it, the endless revisions of personnel only to back up Tool. the Adrian bashing, Bb's dissatisfaction. (bed of nails comment) indeed makes a long timer like me wonder. But honestly, let's call a spade a spade, the King is dead. Call them what they may (who ever has enjoined to play, record and perform)... I'll have that lie down now. forgive the previous rant. Love Ya all, dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:58:55 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: 21SB - Canterbury Robert Cervero wrote... > The mellotron was missed -- Ian refuses to play an M400 and, as > I understand it, they weren't able to get a loaner MKII from Streetley > Electronics in good enough working order to bring it to the show. Sort of. Ian refuses to play an M400 for whatever reasons he may have (I offered to loan him mine for their Edinburgh show!) but Streetly certainly managed to offer him a working Mk II - Martin Smith was going to loan him his own machine. Again, Ian refused preferring to use a sampler. The irony of a sampler dying on its feet is not missed, BTW. :-) > The Roland keys are acceptable though they a mellotron they are not. Mike Dickson, Elephant Talk Administration, Distribution and Mellotron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:51:59 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: the banjo/the favorites/beat/psychedelics > you'd be amazed what Neal and Jack and Me looks like swirling around > your bedroom. No, I wouldn't [;->] > stories about King Crimson music on psychedelic ...? Oh, my word. Stories? David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:31:54 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: just an observation "The position being taken is not to be mistaken for attempted education or righteous accusation. Only a description, just an observation of the pitiful condition of our degeneration" flipping through the pages of the 30th Anniversary Edition of Larks' Tongues In Aspic while listening to the album yet another time from start to finish I noticed a newspaper clipping of the Virgin Top 30 Albums at the time.. Bands such as King Crimson, Roxy Music, Pink Floyd, Elton John, Led Zeppelin, Lou Reed, T.Rex, John Mclauglin, Derek and The Dominos, etc etc etc I'm guessing this is in England in 1973, but the point is... look at any Topc 30 albums chart today and try to compare it... what happened?? (*NOTE: there is no intention of having this become a nostalgic thread of people going into how todays popular music sucks.. this only relates to KC since its in their album notes and they are on the chart, but I'm not sure if I should even expect a post like this to be included. *) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:33:54 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: $100 Deja Vrooom? >regarding Vroom DVD. >I must say after spending nearly $100.00 on this WHAT?!?! who sold you this dvd? It's a list price of probably somewhere between 19.95-24.95. I would never have bought it for over 25 dollars, and I'd be very upset if I payed that much for it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 01:47:42 -0700 From: "James A. Reible" Subject: Making a difference or Warping a young mind? I related this story to a friend and she suggested I share it with other people who care. Back in the age enlightenment, pre-Ray-gun, I was attending the University of Wisconsin and for spending money I drove school bus for the county school district. Naturally I installed a cassette deck and an even dozen pairs of cheap speakers (Billy Joel is right, you do get more mileage from a cheap pair of speakers!) in my bus. I'd lucked out and wound up with a route that was so long that I only had time for a High School/Junior High route, I didn't have to suffer through a grade school route. Well, I did my best to 'educate' the little monsters but after almost 4 years I was getting 'discouraged' to say the least. Until one day a kid who never said anything to anybody, he always sat there and read something which I could never discern the titles, got on the bus carrying a bag from the local record store. He walked up the steps and stopped in front of me and said "excuse me, but is this what you were playing the other morning?" and pulled In the Court of the Crimson King out of the bag! I nodded and said he should try "Red" next and by the way, what are you always reading? Usually Heinlein he said. I got all verklempt! I really had made a difference to at least one kid! Talk about a satisfaction that can't really be described by words! The kid never talked much after that but whenever he'd get on the bus with a record he'd show me what it was. He did get "Red" and then all on his own, I never suggested anything after that, he pulls out A Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, then a Yes album (I can't remember which one but he did mention Bruford.) after that he'd somehow found For Your Pleasure and therefore found Eno which led to the first Devo album! (Though I suspect he found Eno on A Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. But how did he get to For Your Pleasure? Dumb luck? Cool!) That one got my attention so I went out and got my own copy just to see what the kid was into. Then I found the 'produced by Brian Eno' and realized the kid was really on the ball! He found Talking Heads before me as well as scooped me on the new Pink Floyd album, The Wall. (I'd played alot of Floyd on the bus, especially Animals and Meddle, but didn't hear about a new album coming out.) He also got Sheik Yerbouti before I did and told me that Belew had left Zappa for Fripp. (At that point I had no idea who Adrian Belew was!) When I heard the line in Star Wars when Vader tells Obi Wan that once he was the student but now he is the master I could really relate! Especially when he mentioned Bruford, Phil Collins and then out of the mouth of this babe comes Chester Thompson, along with the fact that Chester played with Zappa way back when! Did he learn all this just from reading album covers? I can't think of any way other than that, especially when he showed me a Weather Report album he bought because Chester Thompson played on it! The kid graduated that spring and the next fall who do I find sitting in a 300 level psych class I'm in? Yep, and he also wound up doing an avant garde show on the university FM station! I moved out here to the stinking desert in '81 but he was still on the air the last I heard. Yeah, it makes me feel proud that EYE had something to do with his 'enlightenment' and that, other than the birth of my kids, is my most treasured memory. Just thought I'd share something that some people would say was contributing to the delinquency of a minor but I see as a one of those achievements that might someday be seen as an important milestone in somebodies life. I just wish I could remember his name...... I could drive right to his farm. Oh yeah, he was a middle kid in a LARGE dairy farming family. His brothers were all jocks and his sisters were cheerleaders, he was the black sheep of the family. But the only one to go to college. Go figure...... but that's the way things were in the land of eight foot frogs. -- --- Peace, Shakes --- "Knowledge is a deadly friend if no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools." ---Peter Sinfield---1969--- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:09:42 +0100 From: "Manek Dubash" Subject: Schizoid Band >>PS I saw the Schizoid Band's debut performance at the Canterbury Fayre, and they were GREAT. So what did they sound like, what did they play -- were there any special guests? I'm looking forward to seeing them at London's South Bank on 30 September. Anyone else here going? Tickets are still available (I just checked). Manek Dubash ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:10:39 +0200 From: Dominik Bruckner Subject: Re: Record sales plummet 7% Poor old record industry. I broke in tears when I read in the last issue, that "Record labels say CD sales drop 7 pct". Let's have a close look at this: First of all it appears to me, that there is no trace at all of any mentioning the artists. This makes me wonder (sorry for the coincidence). And it makes me look a little closer at the text. Number one: if the sales of something go down, there may be two probable reasons: 1. People don't need the stuff, 2. It is too expensive. You don't need to consider any Internet downloading services for this first thought. They have to come in IN A SECOND STEP. For it is completely helpless to mix up cause and effect. This is proved by the text itself. It says: "41 percent reported purchasing less music now than six months ago" Alright, this might be the time the study began, but, wasn't there a Napster before that time? Additionally "Forrester Research issued a study saying piracy was not to blame for the sharp decline in record sales." Well, there you have it. Obviously the reason for record sales dropping cannot be named without doubt. The reason for this can easily be found out: "The RIAA's survey is based on 860 music consumers with Internet access between the ages of 12 and 54". 860 (presumably U.S. americans) might not be too representative. "I would not argue that downloading and copying are the only factors at work," Geoff Garin, chief executive of Hart Research said. Well, definitely correct. Throwaway music and high prices might be other factors, right? Right: "The way to defeat illegal music distribution services is to offer comprehensive, innovative, fairly priced legal services" "The point is if there were a high quality product that was affordable and available across multiple services, they would be able to defeat the free services," Potter said. That's it. "Asked when they hear a song they like by an unfamiliar artist, 20 percent of the respondents said they would download the song for free, while 14 percent said they would buy the album." In many countries there isn't such a thing as trying out a new CD in the record store before buying it. This explains why so many people prefer a download. To me, the record industry appears like a monopolist moving very very slowly like they were a part of a centrally planned economy: no flexibility, no intelligence, no creativity, no humanity. The answer to all that has been given by Robert Fripp: it is the small intelligent and mobile unit. Let's all have a look at the artist and his/her music again. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:16:44 +0100 From: Mr Tea Subject: Lizard & Beat I'm not sure why 'Lizard' is my favourite KC album. There are others that I play more often, and it doesn't contain my favourite tracks or feature my favourite band lineup, so it must be one of those 'whole is greater than the sum of the parts' things. There's a unique vibe about it, a maturity of purpose, a tangible essence of time and place, and the feeling that musical boundaries have melted away to reveal a vast landscape of endless possibilities. I've no difficulty, however, in figuring out why 'Beat' is my least favourite... Does anyone else remember those 'Top of the Pops' albums that featured a bunch of session musicians playing copycat versions of recent chart hits. 16 top tunes for less than a quid! The covers were s'posed to be indistinguishable from the originals, but somehow they were never quite there. And so it is with 'Beat'. It's as if a group of competent but unimaginative session players had been set the task of creating an album in the style of 'Discipline' as a sort of academic excersise. Rather like Todd Rundgren's Utopia did with a range of Beatles stylings on 'Deface the Music', but less successful. Mr Tea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:36:05 -0500 From: "Phillip Ciskowski" Subject: Beat, Construction Of Light, Lizard Beat was my first King Crimson album, so I have always had a soft spot for it. In fact, if I don't rate it #1, it would at least be in the top 3. However, I find it impossible to rank them beyond that, except to put Island last. I don't agree that Neal & Jack & Me is a weak song, especially when you listen to the version on Cap D'Agade. Same thing with Waiting Man. To me the sound quality on CoL is probably one of the worst major releases I've heard in a long time. It sound like what you get when you encode an MP3 at 128k - kind of a smeared sound on the treble and vocals. However, the music makes up for it! I first bought Lizard as a half-speed mastered album in the '80's, and I didn't like it. I really never listened again until the most recent remasters, and I love it now. Maybe in 20 years I will like Islands... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:22:24 -0400 From: Ellen Bozyan Subject: Post a listing please I was told that it would be a great idea to list on Elephant Talk that the California Guitar Trio is on Tour! They are coming to Newport RI September 14 at 8 PM. For details visit: www.newportcongregationalchurch.org/events or call 401-849-2238! Ellen Bozyan Art takes the mind and molds it into one's imagination ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:17:16 -0500 From: "McLeod, Jeff" Subject: KC and dissonance in music Hi, all . . . Since we all enjoy the music of King Crimson, I know that we're all familiar with the concept of dissonance. This is what initially attracted me to King Crimson--that jarring, chordal, nightmarish sound that leaps out of quiet passages. In general, KC's approach to tonality has always been refreshing to me. I just wanted to drop an note here and recommend some similarly dissonance-oriented music for everyone. Try some of these on for size: Voivod, Spiral Architect, Dillinger Escape Plan (especially the new on with Mike Patton on vocals--which is a big improvement on previous vocal outings), Present & Nevermore (Dreaming Neon Black has some incredible guitarwork and dissonant layering). I'd also recommend Saragashum, which you can hear at www.mp3.com/saragashum although the downloadable mp3s aren't up just yet (keep checking back--I think you'll be pleased with what you hear). Anyway, any other posts regarding dissonance in music would be most appreciated. Here's hoping that the new KC is chock full of it! Jeff McLeod www.soundandchaos.com ====================== I think, therefore, I am. I think. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:59:21 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Firesign; Beat blow-by-blow >And Scott, I especially like the fact you were listening to Firesign Theater! I love those guys. >3. Sartori in Tangier. Not a bad little tune ... Pretty good in fact. Oh man - give Fripp a pedal tone and he shows us what Egyptian-sounding modes are all about. I would like to hear this song covered by the master musicians of Joujouka. >5. Neurotica. Not much more interesting than most of this album. Lots of nice Belew noises (and Fripp sounds), but really not much of a song. The drumming is phenomenal - the lyrics are evocative. >6. Two Hands. Finally a good song! Good singing and guitar from Belew. and an especially fine effort from Bill and Tony. Nice lyrics from Margaret Belew. >7. The Howler. I like Belew's solo that starts at 2:54, but that's about it. What a great groove this song has, especially for a song that's not in a conventional time signature. >8. Requiem. A Frippertronics performance with overdubs. Bruf and Levin have nice parts with some neat soloing from the guitar guys. I hear no overdubs on this song - it sounds live to me (if soundscapes count as being "live" - I think they do). >So, perhaps I misjudged Beat, and should amend my opinion to say. "This album has very little that I care for; I like 'Sartori in Tangier' and 'Two Hands,' and, to a lesser degree, 'Requiem.' There's some fine playing throughout the album." That's a great statement and beats the hell out of what way too many people say on ET and other lists like it: "This album sucks". - S. np: ELP at Rich Stadium, Buffalo NY Jul 26 1974 scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:17:43 +0000 From: "Spear man" Subject: peter gabriel's new band from Tony Levin's site >August 29, Italy More info about the tour is leaking in. The show this Saturday is at Munchner Konigsplatz, in Munich. It's the 20th anniversary of Virgin Records, and though I don't know who all the acts are, we'll play a set with some of Peter's new music. The band members for this tour: from the former band, just me and guitarist David Rhodes. In addition, Richard Evans is playing guitar and flute. Rachel Z, from New York, will be playing keyboards. Ged Lynch is our drummer - aside from doing some recording with Peter, he played on last Summer's show at the Seattle Womad show. And Melanie Gabriel is singing backup vocals. It's already a close knit group, both musically and personally. We're looking forward to a great time on the road. We are off tomorrow to Munich to get ready for Saturday's show. Then we will return for more rehearsing! (So far we've only learned half of the pieces we'll be doing in November's tour.) The Munich show will be great, and, when these rehearsals end, playing some club shows should be terrific.< ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 05:25:38 +0800 From: "John and Sharon" Subject: Re: 30th Anniversary Editions All of the 30th Anniversary Editions are superior to any prior CD release. Islands has been markedly improved over any of its 3 previous CD editions (first release, and 2 Definitive Editions releases - the first DE release was WAY over-NoNoised to the point of phase shift and near mono sound, while the second used less NoNoise, but continued the usage of the same noisy tape that has been used since EG moved from Island records to Polydor so many years ago.) The 30th Islands uses a lower generation tape that doesn't have the tape noises evident in all previous vinyl and CD editions beyond the original Island vinyl release. A history of the Island UK Islands cover can be found in the FAQ, and it is reproduced in full with the 30th Anniversary version John Buchanan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:38:32 -0400 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: 80's Crimson SECRETS! Hey! I know how "No Warning" (from ToaPP) got its title! Listen closely...at around 2:16, Fripp's guitar sounds like it's saying "no warning, no warning, no warning!" It's actually a flanger effect he's using, but if you pretend it's a voice, it seems to repeat the title of the song. This happens several times before the end. So weird! I wonder if anybody else has ever noticed this, or if it was even intentional? Another thing hit me recently: "The Howler" would have made a great "Lark's 3", were it an instrumental. It has all the staples: atonal chord patterns, odd meter, etc.! It has that same ascending feel of "Lark's 2", and damn it all if Belew's solo isn't a reincarnation of David Cross' solo from 1973. It just sounds like this tune would have been much more fitting, if developed, for the "Lark's 3" moniker than the actual "Lark's 3," which wasn't very heavy, and had a 4/4 JAM AND FADEOUT tacked on to the end, basically a death wish in my book...although I must say, the ToaPP Live in Tokyo video performance had a great Fripp solo at the end, unlike every other recorded version. I listen to the "Lark's 3" on Absent Lovers constantly, and to this day, I can't pick out a SINGLE NOTE Robert Plays at the end. It's all just intermittent white noise! Plus, in the video, Fripp actually looks like he's enjoying himself, which is rare. Speaking of Fripp solos, I will re-iterate that Beat is worth the price of admission alone for Fripp's solo on "Requiem," which as far as I can tell is flawless in every way. It's not just a million notes a la Holdsworth or Vai, people; the ones he sustains, the ones he cuts off sharply, the way he repeats certain runs in both directions...it's pure genius, and it was all improvised. Back to the 70's...the percussive, trashy sound heard in "One More Red Nightmare" and elsewhere on the album Red is, according to Bill Bruford himself, a 20-inch Zilket cymbal, bent up on one side. It's in Sid Smith's book, page 197. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:07:27 -0700 From: tad r burgert Subject: sleepless bass line I am new to elephant talk so I do not know if this has been brought up before. I have a version of TOAPP on which sleepless has this driving bass line with a kind of slap echo effect. I later repurchased TOAPP on CD and this bass line had been altered ( to me it took away from the song ). I once asked a friend of mine how the original line had been done. He suggested that the bass did have a delay on it but only on one string, which makes it rather difficult to reproduce. Anybody else have any thoughts on this? Thank you for a great publication, Tad Burgert ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1019 *********************************